"Obama simply not being truthful" - Ezra Klein

[SaveElmer]

As John Edwards pointed out in the debate...

First, Obama is simply not being truthful when he says his plan "covers everybody." It doesn't. It makes it easier for everybody to get coverage, but it simply does not cover every American. Every time he says otherwise, he's misleading the voters.

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/2007/07/health-care-at-.html#comments

[wyldwolf]

1. Ezra Klein is a DLC tool

Remember, he also denied the 50 state strategy was effective.

[MNDemNY]

4. That does not

change the fact that Obama's plan does NOT cover everyone.

[wyldwolf]

9. yeah... if you knew me you'd know that was sarcasm

[MNDemNY]

11. Fair enough.

[bigdarryl]

2. BULLSHIT Obama is right enough of this Bush/Clinton policy of not talking to people we disagree shit

if we didn't talk to the Soviet Union we wouldn't have solved the cold war.

[MNDemNY]

5. What has that to do with

whether or not his health plan covers everyone or not? Or do you not read the posts you reply to?

[Renew Deal]

10. D'oh

:rofl:

[rinsd]

12. Now Reagan won the Cold War? Obamanians are going to revive that myth in support of their guy's TP?

[wyldwolf]

14. it's all starting to sound really familiar...

...like a certain previous candidate's supporters who suddenly thought a tort reform, state's rights, and high ratings from the NRA was a good thing.

[rinsd]

15. Speaking of which

But Obama's campaign staff is aware that if they do not appear to contest the earlier electoral challenges, from Nevada to New Hampshire, they may lack the momentum to win South Carolina.

Dean fell prey to the same pitfall. His campaign never recovered after imploding in Iowa. After the first 2004 caucuses, John F. Kerry rode a wave of perceived electability from Iowa to the convention, not unlike many Democrats before him.

"The liberal wing of the Democratic Party falls in love with quasi-messianic figures who come along regularly with an exciting, aspirational vision for where the country must go, often coupled with an unpopular war, at least an unpopular war among progressives, and for a significant time they are ascendant within that liberal wing of the Democratic Party," said Steve Grossman, the chairman of Dean's 2004 presidential campaign who is now a fundraiser for Clinton.

Yet, Grossman emphasized, "when the broader cross section of the Democratic Party takes a somewhat more dispassionate look at the field and says who is ready to be president of the United States and bring the kind of vision and leadership to the job, those quasi-messianic figures tend to fall short. And the more established candidate tends to win, because people are looking for something rock solid and predictable when it comes to presidential voting."

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0707/5097.html

[killbotfactory]

20. The previous poster did not mention Reagan

insert coin to play again

[rinsd]

21. So who was the poster refering to here?

"if we didn't talk to the Soviet Union we wouldn't have solved the cold war"

Clinton? Bush 1?

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

31. Oh, Presidents back to FDR perhaps

:eyes:

[rinsd]

35. Really? FDR ended the Cold War?

Or did the Clintons travel back in time to force him not to?

[sandnsea]

41. "we" Do you not know what "we" means?

We, we as a country, our Presidents. Talked to the Soviet Union. Consequently, we, all the Presidents and decades of foreign policy, won the cold war.

Got it??

[rinsd]

44. At least give credit to killbot for reading BD's mind on that one.

But sorry I don't buy it when he was referencing Obama's statement which specifically says Reagan.

[sandnsea]

47. Obama also referenced Lebanon

And Reagan "cutting and running" there, iirc. He's talked about Reagan in a much broader sense than what he's being attacked for.

And I did say Presidents back to FDR, I didn't need anybody to explain the meaning of "we" and what our foreign policy has been for decades. Sorry that you did.

[killbotfactory]

37. Everybody. That's what "we" means.

The United States as a whole.

[rinsd]

45. Except BD was crediting Obama who specifically mentioned Reagan

But nice try though.

[killbotfactory]

46. The poster was talking about the need to talk to our enemies.

That's it.

But if it's important to you to try and pathetically spin this into Obama and his supporters applauding everything Reagan did, go ahead.

[ieoeja]

48. While Bleacher7 went way off topic, he didn't mention anything about Reagan.

I don't know if Ike met with the Soviet leader, but most (possibly all) the US presidents after him met with their Soviet counterpart during the Cold War. Reagan was far from the first.

And even though Reagan was desperate for such a meeting, he breathed new life into the Soviet Union keeping it alive longer than it should have through his efforts to keep the Soviet Union isolated from the West. Everyone old enough at the time should be able to recall the opening of a Pizza Hut on Red Square as sounding the deathknell of the Soviet Union. The Reagan administration fought with everything they had to stop Pizza Hut.

Yes, Saint Ronnie actually tried to stop the expansion of capitalism into the Soviet Union. Conservatives get so fixated on the "enemy" being evil, they often forget why they call them evil. Which is why they have historically been incredibly inept at national security.

[illinoisprogressive]

3. like Clinton has any idea what the truth is

[MNDemNY]

6. Are you saying that Obama's health

plan does cover everyone?...Well?

[MNDemNY]

8. Just as I thought.

[sandnsea]

25. She doesn't even promise a plan

until the end of her second term. I guess it'll be easier to implement a plan after all the baby boomers, who are stupidly electing her, are dead.

[bluerum]

7. Kind of like "Another round of taxcuts for my friend,,,err,,, I mean everybody!" eom

[MannyGoldstein]

13. Obama's Plan *Is* A Disappointment

Single payer universal health care (i.e.., Medicare for everyone) is the only plan that is proven to work. In every industrialized country where it's been tried, they have better medical outcomes and far, far lower costs compared with the US.

Any other plan is a dangerous experiment.

[MNDemNY]

17. Here-here!!!

[sandnsea]

23. Except nobody is proposing that

So I don't know why you're singling out Obama.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

16. it takes a mighty fine razor

to split hairs so thin.

[MNDemNY]

18. You could split that hair with a chainsaw.

[maximusveritas]

19. Neither does Edwards' plan

A mandate doesn't mean everyone is going to be covered. Look at the car insurance mandates, which certainly haven't led to everyone getting car insurance. To selectively call out Obama reveals something more about the attacker (in this case, Klein) than the person being attacked.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

32. That is spin

There may be a tiny number of people who opt out of getting health insurance (which would happen in any plan short of single payer) but the fact is that Obama's plan--even under the rosiest scenario concocted by his aides--will leave at least 15 million Americans uninsured. Remember, this is the rosy scenario. What is the real number? 18 million? 20 million? 25 million? Edwards' plan will cover millions more than Obama's plan. Edwards' plan will get us closer to universal health insurance than any plan that can get through Congress. It also contains a back door provision that may lead to the nation evolving into having a single payer system if voters opt for his Medicare Plus plan. The difference between Edwards and Obama on health insurance are like night and day. For some the differences are irrelevant; for those who are uninsured they make all the difference in the world.

Here is what Ted Kennedy had to say about JE's plan:

"John Edwards has made a serious and thoughtful proposal to address the growing health care crisis. His innovative plan offers practical steps to lower the high cost of health care, improve the quality of care and provide coverage for all Americans."

-- Sen. Edward M. Kennedy (MA)

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rinsd]

24. Someone call the Whammmmbulance.

[sandnsea]

26. That doesn't even make sense

The HRC people are the ones who do nothing but whine. Everything they post actually shows how much bettery ALL the candidates are than Clinton. Rather stupid if you ask me.

[rinsd]

27. You slay me you really do.

You post the most ridiculous conspiracy theories about the Clintons then get all indignant when someone dares say something not glowing about Obama.

Pathetic.

[sandnsea]

29. Her plan is BIG SHIT

And your strategy is to trash the people with the BETTER plans? It's INSANE. Hillary people do that all the time. Obama took a penny from a bank. Oooooh, bad Obama. While Hillary slides out the back door with millions. Obama said he's going to talk to people, ooooh, bad Obama. While Hillary promises to continue the stonewalling antagonistic "diplomacy" that hasn't gotten us anywhere except into wars. Over and over. The Clinton people attack Obama for having better policies than she does. :crazy:

[rinsd]

34. Ezra Klein is now Hillary people?

I can't wait until she's elected and the unstable amongst the DU population go into full meltdown.

[sandnsea]

36. Oh okay, Clinton & Edwards people

And a few disruptors with their own agendas. The country and world will lose when she's elected. The difference is, I won't be expecting any massive change so I won't be disappointed as the agony continues among the working class, except nobody will talk about it because we have a "Dem" President.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

38. Ezra Klein is working for HRC AND Edwards simply because he stated the truth about Obama's plan?

It is a shame a man who rails against cynicism in politics can't bring himself to tell voters the truth about his plan...This is another example that Obama's "new kind of politics" is just a marketing ploy straight out of the Rove playbook. Remember "changing the tone"? :crazy:

[sandnsea]

40. Yeah that's what I said

:crazy:

[draft_mario_cuomo]

43. What do you think about a man who rails against cynicism in politics lying about his health plan?

Isn't that the main reason there is cynicism toward politicians?

[sandnsea]

49. And adores Joe Trippi?

Yeah, he's got no bias. I had forgotten his personal interest in Dean and Trippi. What a wanker.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

51. Obama adores Joe Trippi? nt

[draft_mario_cuomo]

28. Obama needs to be honest with voters. His plan will leave at least 15 million people uninsured

And this figure comes from a rosy scenario concocted by his aides... It will be a damn shame if he wins a close race because he fooled some uninsured people into believing that he was proposing universal health care (and not an incremental Third Way plan) and they suffer without health insurance because of Obama's--I like Obama but there is no way to sugarcoat this--lying on this issue. When you are not proposing universal health insurance but so say "everyone will be covered" under your plan that is a lie. And there are some who do not have the luxury of living without health care. They need universal health care, not rhetoric about "hope."

[sandnsea]

30. Medicare doesn't cover everything

So Edwards doesn't have a plan to cover everybody either. His is also mandated, which DU was in hysteria over just a few weeks ago. So Edwards isn't being honest, but nobody is supposed to notice that.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

33. See post 32 nt (p.s. I recall hearing that Edwards' plan was similar to Kerry's 04' plan...)

[sandnsea]

39. So is Obamas, first of all

Edwards' is actually better, second of all. They are both at least promising to tackle this in their first term, third of all.

Point being, trashing Obama's plan as not covering everybody is ridiculous when NOBODY's plan will cover ALL medical for EVERYBODY.

This is why I'm not an Edwards supporter, by the way, He's a phony opportunist as well. It's just that he's decided to make poor people his campaign theme, which makes him sound unique.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

42. Stating the facts because a candidate will not do so is "trashing" his plan?

Klein noted that Obama's plan would help make it easier for some to get health insurance. He wasn't trashing him. He was simply stating the reality. It is a shame a man who rails against cynicism in politics can't bring himself to tell the truth about a plan that will leave 15+ million uninsured...The audacity of hope? How about the audacity of deceiving the uninsured? :eyes:

There are differences between the candidates on health insurance. Edwards' plan will get us closest to universal health insurance of any plan that can get through Congress. Under his plan anyone who needs health insurance can get it. This is not the case with Obama's plan and the American people--especially the uninsured--need to know this before they vote.

Yes, running on an anti-poverty platform is so great that the dozens and dozens of candidates since RFK in 1968 opted not to do so. :crazy:

[sandnsea]

50. It's political hack tactics

Trashing somebody else for something you aren't any better on is tired potshot bullshit. Edwards plan won't get us any closer than Obamas because they both rely on subsidized premiums. The only difference is Edwards' is mandated, which won't pass anyway because half the Democratic Party had a coronary when Mass mandated health coverage. So he's lying about his plan, and he has the audacity to point the finger at someone else when his plan is no better. It's putrid. It's why I don't think Edwards really gives a shit about anything he talks about, it's just a campaign theme to him. And the longer Trippi is with him, the further to the left he gets. A complete 180 from the guy who ran in 2003 and 2004 - and won't admit it.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

52. Edwards' plan is the best plan presented that can get enacted

It will cover millions and millions more than the Obama plan. That matters for the uninsured...

[sandnsea]

53. Not with a mandate

Once you take the mandate out, it's pretty much the same as Obama's. I do like creating a government pool in addition though.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

54. The mandate is the source of the disagreement and the difference between universal health care and..

...Obama's non-universal plan.

[sandnsea]

55. Uh, I said that a while ago

Most of the left objects to a mandate because it forces people to pay for insurance they may not be able to afford, even government insurance. So if the mandate doesn't pass, Edwards' plan is no difference than Obama's. So Edwards is not being truthful about the fact that the only thing that makes his plan universal is that it's forced. That's a pretty cheezy thing to try to turn into a campaign issue.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

56. Edwards is being truthful. Everyone knows what "it's mandatory" means nt

[sandnsea]

57. Edwards is shoving more taxes down your throat

That's what most people will say it means. If it's unaffordable, it won't be universal because people will just break the law and not buy it. He's being intentionally manipulative when he concocts this controversy. He should be standing beside Obama and challenging Hillary for not promising comprehensive reform in her first 100 days. Kerry promised health care would be his FIRST bill. Why isn't that the challenge this year?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

58. Edwards' plan includes reducing costs, just like Obama's. Edwards' plan is universal, though

That is the difference between the two plans.

When did Obama challenge HRC on health care?

Kerry isn't running.

[sandnsea]

59. Only because Edwards pretends it is

Because he manipulates mandate into universal. They aren't the same thing.

And Obama challenged Hillary the second he said he was determined to have universal health care in his first term.

I wish Edwards would get to the real issue, and getting health care to every American as quickly as possible is it. Not this phony mandate argument.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

60. Edwards challenged them both by proposing the first health insurance plan, not with generic rhetoric

And thus far it is the only universal one among the top-tier.

[sandnsea]

62. lol, lol, lol

My candidate was first, first I tell ya!

:rofl: :rofl:

Obama proposed an amendment to the Illinois Constitution to make health care a right. You can't top that.

[AZBlue]

61. The working and unemployed poor can not afford another payment.

So just dropping the cost of insurance doesn't help. It must be free or they won't be able to take advantage of it.