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IndianaJones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:18 AM
Original message
GLBT DU'ers, which candidate do you feel would best advance...
the struggle for equal rights if they were elected?
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TechBear_Seattle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
1. Kucinnich, and only Kucinnich
I have absolutely no faith in Clinton, Obama or Edwards with regards to basic civil rights. None.
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Even Though He's Not A Candidate (Yet), May I Suggest:


My brother is gay, and would support a Clark candidacy 100%.
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racaulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. I totally agree with you.
I admire Kucinich greatly and Gravel has very progressive stances on GLBT rights as well. But I'm totally with you on the "top 3" contenders...no faith at all.
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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 01:26 PM
Response to Original message
4. Kucinich, obviously n/t
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bigwillq Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 01:39 PM
Response to Original message
5. DK
Not so sure about the others yet.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
6. may I ask one?
I'm not a voter in the US, and I'm definitely not a Richardson fan overall.

But what about his (I thought) honest answer? -- he supports doing what can actually be done.

As background, I'd point out that "civil unions" were in fact what was done in Canada, for instance, before marriage became possible. Not formally in all jurisdictions, but in Quebec it was. It is also what has been done in other places.

The situation in Canada, provincially (e.g. spousal support) and federally (e.g. government pensions), was that the distinction between marriage and "common-law" relationships had been wiped out long before same-sex marriage came to pass. Unmarried opposite-sex couples had virtually all the same rights and protections as the married (slight differences relating to property). And same-sex couples had had those same rights and protections, not for as long as opposite-sex couples, but for quite some time. They got survivors' pension benefits, had support and parental rights, were entitled to include spouses in employment benefits like supplemental health insurance and time off for family reasons. There was no need for "civil unions" any more than there was for opposite-sex couples; the de facto relationship sufficed for both.

I gather that common-law opposite-sex couples have nowhere near the same rights and protections in the US, so extending that treatment obviously wouldn't do.

The thing is that in Canada, it took constitutional challenges, in the courts, to the various provincial governments' refusal to issue marriage licences, to make the issue unavoidable, and achieve the victory in principle that was then solidified by legislative action. (The definition of marriage is federal, and it actually said nothing about the sex of the parties; the solemnization of marriage, e.g. licensing of officiants and issuing of licences, is provincial.)

The same was true in South Africa. It wasn't governments that did the doing, at least not until they were told they had to by the courts.

Your courts are probably a lost cause, so this puts you in a difficult position.

First, the issue is really a state-level one, as I understand it (apart from federal attemtps to interfere, like the defence of marriage thing.) Which makes it complicated and messy.

But more problematic, it seems to me, is that you're trying to do politically what has been really difficult to do even in more socially liberal places: get a legislative rather than a judicial rejection of unconstitutional limits on marriage. (Unconstitutional, obviously, because they deny the equal protection of the law.)

On the one hand, it seems bizarre to think that it would be easier to change the 1100 or whatever it is provisions that deny that equal protection in the US. But logistically, that could be done by omnibus legislation changing the definitions in all of them at once. (I don't quite understand the federal component of all this.)


Anyhow, like I said, just background. But I think it's worth considering when looking at what's doable. You really are trying to do something all at once that was done gradually and piecemeal in most of the places where it has already been done.

The process in other countries that now have same-sex marriage was a bit of a long one, and it may be that by skipping over parts of that process you're asking for something that isn't doable, politically at least.

That's not to say that I would actually respect a candidate who muttered about churches and a man and a woman and personal misgivings and separate but equal and yuck like that. I just wonder whether Richardson's answer wasn't a good reflection of reality, and an honest response to it.



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goodgd_yall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. I liked Richardson's answer very much.
Are you thinking of Edwards though? I don't think Richardson said anything about religion influencing his stance on the issue. As for Richardson, I'm not sure what his personal views are, but I like that Richardson said, let's be realistic. he proceeded with, to me, a very sincered and adamant statement about his belief that gay and lesbian partnerships should have the same rights that belong to married couples. Expectin full marriage equality is not realistic with the Supreme Court we have now. And it is said, according to polls, that most Americans do not support gay marriage so it's doubtful Congress would be making laws on legalizing gay marriages if they think their re-election would be doomed. I think there is confusion on the issue though, and there needs to be more discussion about civil marriage vs. religious marriages.

Kucinich is the only candidate unequivocably for gay marriage, and though he might not be able to do anything about it, in the unlikely event he was the chosen candidate, it's good to know where he and the other candidates stand.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-27-07 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. pardon my confusingness!
I don't think Richardson said anything about religion influencing his stance on the issue.

I was just waxing general at that point -- Richardson specifically didn't say any of that crap, about religion or about how civil unions were every bit as good as marriage (separate but equal ...). That's the other part of what I did like about his answer: that it was based on his political analysis, and not on his personal crap or on what we all know is nonsense, constitutionally.

On the "separate but equal", y'all should read some of the Canadian decisions. Equality is a value that is based on human dignity, and it offends human dignity to relegate someone to a second tier in any way that affects their status in society.


And it is said, according to polls, that most Americans do not support gay marriage so it's doubtful Congress would be making laws on legalizing gay marriages if they think their re-election would be doomed.

Sadly, a leadership vacuum, but it certainly isn't the only issue where that's found.


Since I'm straight as a board myself, I don't presume to tell anyone else how s/he should feel on this issue, let alone what compromises s/he should accept. I do just think that incremental approaches are sometimes necessary, and might be considered. The problem is that the US is playing catch-up to the rest of the world in so many ways -- we certainly didn't get universal health care in Canada overnight, either! -- that I can imagine how difficult it is to say let's settle for half a loaf when it's so obvious the entire bakery is what one is entitled to and what is entirely possible, were there not dishonest barriers to it erected at every turn.


Years ago, I read the answer to a question put to two people in unrelated circumstances. When Gloria Steinem, of Ms., was asked why the magazine carried make-up ads and suchlike crap, she went off on some silliness about how women like to make themselves look good, yada yada. When Doris Anderson, a champion of women's rights in Canada from the 1950s on, under constant pressure from her publisher to turn a profit or lose Chatelaine, the magazine she edited, back to being a manual for the 1950s housewife, was asked why her publication carried make-up ads and crap, she said Because we need the money.

Richardson's answer struck me as like that. ;)




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closeupready Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. Regardless of who's running, people in the GLBT community need to get candidates on board.
Edited on Thu Jul-26-07 02:52 PM by closeupready
That means holding them accountable for failing to support equal rights. Kucinich is the most equality-minded of the candidates, Obama less so (and least when it comes to marriage equality), but all of them seem open to reasonable discussion.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
9. I think they're all on the same page
Strangely enough, I think Joe Biden gets the issue totally. After him, I'd feel comfortable with Clinton, Edwards, Richardson and Kucinich, tho I disagree with DK on a lot other things, so that would trump his support of GLBT rights. Trailing, I'd say Obama and Dodd. But, quite frankly, any of them would be vastly superior to what we have now.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-26-07 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
10. Dennis Kucinich
No one else comes close!
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