Hillary on Obama: What's ever happened to the Politics of Hope?

[SaveElmer]

Sen. Clinton: "Well, this is getting kind of silly. I've been called a lot of things in my life but I've never been called George Bush or Dick Cheney certainly. We have to ask what's ever happened to the politics of hope?

"I have been saying consistently for a number of years now, we have to end the Bush era of ignoring problems, ignoring enemies and adversaries. And I have been absolutely clear that we've got to return to robust and effective diplomacy. But I don't want to see the power and prestige of the United States President put at risk by rushing into meetings with the likes of Chavez, and Castro, and Ahmadinejad."

Interview on CNN airing this afternoon...

[Colobo]

1. She attacked him first, now she's gotta deal with the backlash.

[SaveElmer]

2. She certainly didn't call him Bush-Cheney...

And in fact, it was Obama's blunder in the debate that started this...

Seems like he is trying to yell his way out of it...

Dig, Obama, Dig...!!!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. He's not Bush-Cheney.

Clinton, on the other hand...

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ethelk2044]

84. She called him Naive which was a personal attack. Now he is putting her in her place.

He always have said he will not attack. However, he did say he will respond with a force. He has done just that. She will think twice before going after him again. It only made her look bad.

[William769]

87. Naive is the truth, Bush or Cheney is not.

See the difference?

[rinsd]

3. I think now Obama has become the one overreaching.

He was doing well with the flipflopper parry but he just upped the ante to Bush-lite.

Which would be a good attack except his flipflopper attack essentially debunked it.

[Colobo]

4. Obama is a fierce counterpuncher, and she left herself open.

[SaveElmer]

7. More like a palooka...

Flailing around trying to find an attack that doesn't make him look foolish...

Flip-flopper...nope, didn't work...today Bush-CHenery lite...

WHat will it be tomorrow?

[Colobo]

8. C'mon Elmer- He's calling it like it is. Mr. Nice is over. Get used to it.

[SaveElmer]

11. He is trying to screech his way out of a blunder...

A blunder that would very likely have dealt him a mortal blow in a general election campaign...

Not the first time either...he is constantly having to explain what he meant by what he said...

Not gonna work in a general election campaign...

Add this to his comical contention that he has the most relevant experience in foreign policy of any candidate...and he is just digging a deeper hole for himself...

[Colobo]

12. You are good at spinning, but you know better than that.

Had your candidate been less arrogant, none of this would have happened.

[SaveElmer]

15. Hardly...

Were your candidate more experienced he wouldn't have blundered in the first place...

Go take a look at the 1976 Ford-Carter debates to see what trouble a blunder like this can cause

[Colobo]

16. LOL! You are comparing the right foreign policy approach (Obama) to Ford's stupidity?

C'mon Elmer, you KNOW it's not even close.

[SaveElmer]

20. If you think the right foreign policy approach...

Is to agree, without precondition, to meet with Fidel Castro in Havana...which is what his answer was..

You only have two choices...

1. He meant what he said and he would meet with say Fidel Castro without precondition during his first year in office...


2. He ignored the nature of the question, assumed people knew what he meant, and left out important caveats to his answer


Either way its a mistake...

[Hippo_Tron]

26. I don't see a problem with the US President meeting with Castro in Havana

Cuba hasn't been a National Security threat since the fall of Communism. The only reason we still treat them like they are is because of Cuban refugees in the swing state of Florida that has 27 electoral votes.

[laugle]

44. Well said! Obama should have calmly clarified

his position and left it at that!

I think he is getting some bad advice, maybe from Colin Powell!

[Tellurian]

61. Just got my first look at Axelrod on Matthews..

If that is Obama head strategist.... The guy is a bundle of nerves. I don't understand how he can strategize more than 5 min intervals. The man is a walking time bomb, imo. He couldn't thread together 3 words to complete a sentence in a cogent manner to understand the point he's trying to make. No wonder, the message he's sending out to Obama's supporters is so...so..confusing and disjointed..

OTOH...He's great for Obama!

When I tuned into Matthews tonight (who I never watch btw) It took a few minutes to ascertain who was who. I was pleased to see Wolfson was our Team's representative. He's cool, calm and collected. He's poised and is capable of thinking quickly on his feet (with ease) in a highly pressured interview...and has the right answers to boot!...<sigh>

[laugle]

67. I swear we have a

psychic link here! I was thinking the same thing! Axelrod was terrible......like I said before, someone needs to be fired now!!

[Ethelk2044]

83. Obama was right to do A TKO. It did not make him look bad. To the contrary. It has made her look

bad.

[fujiyama]

72. Please tell me why

the US president speaks to those like the Chinese President (a country with a worse human rights record than Cuba) or a dictator like Musharraf (whose country is responsible for all sorts of problems) or the Saudi Royal Family (another country with atrocious human rights violations)...

[aquart]

31. So he's behaving like a Republican. What a treat.

Bodes well for the future, doesn't it?

[Colobo]

32. Behaving like a Republican? He's to the left of Hillary on Foreign Policy!

[aquart]

34. And George was against nation-building. So?

I'm talking about how Obama behaves when he feels threatened. And I don't appreciate it.

[rinsd]

13. Like I said I see this as an overreach.

Whether it backfires or not remains to be seen.

But as you can see he left himself open now to Hillary using his own TPs against him.

[Colobo]

17. Slugfest. Let the best candidate win.

[rinsd]

18. Naaah too early for a full out brawl. This is a mere scuffle

[Colobo]

19. A preview, then.

[rinsd]

25. Think of it as the shoving match at the weigh in

;-)

[draft_mario_cuomo]

23. Remember who benefitted from the Dean-Gephardt war in Iowa?

;) That said, Obama has no choice but to take the gloves off. HRC is on the verge of running away with this.

[Tellurian]

60. Yes, you've got that right...

Here is the "skinny" on what the Obama supporters don't understand. Or choose denial as cover for their hero.

Obama was asked this question at the 2nd. South Carolina debate:

"In 1982, Anwar Sadat traveled to Israel, a trip that resulted in a peace agreement that has lasted ever since. In the spirit of that type of bold leadership, would you be willing to meet separately, without precondition, during the first year of your administration, in Washington or anywhere else, with the leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba and North Korea, in order to bridge the gap that divides our countries?

The components to the question were 1) meet separately; 2) without precondition; 3) during the first year; 4) In Washington or anywhere else; 5) with leaders of Iran, Syria, Venezuela, Cuba, North Korea. Obama answered the question with “I would."

Heres what I think happened. Obama made the same mistake he made at the 1st. SC Debate. He doesn't listen to or hear the entire question OR he doesn't understand what the correct response should be. In this case, he missed 1) meet separately; 2) without precondition. He only gave #'s (3), (4), and (5) consideration before he answered.

Obama did the same thing here in the last debate:

When Brian Williams asked:

"Senator Obama, if, God forbid a thousand times, while we were gathered here tonight, we learned that two American cities have been hit simultaneously by terrorists and we further learned, beyond the shadow of a doubt it had been the work of Al Qaida, how would you change the U.S. military stance overseas as a result?"

Senator Barack Obama responded:

"Well, the first thing we'd have to do is make sure that we've got an effective emergency response, something that this administration failed to do when we had a hurricane in New Orleans.

And I think that we have to review how we operate in the event of not only a natural disaster, but also a terrorist attack.

The second thing is to make sure that we've got good intelligence, a., to find out that we don't have other threats and attacks potentially out there, and b., to find out, do we have any intelligence on who might have carried it out so that we can take potentially some action to dismantle that network.

But what we can't do is then alienate the world community based on faulty intelligence, based on bluster and bombast. Instead, the next thing we would have to do, in addition to talking to the American people, is making sure that we are talking to the international community.

Because as already been stated, we're not going to defeat terrorists on our own. We've got to strengthen our intelligence relationships with them, and they've got to feel a stake in our security by recognizing that we have mutual security interests at stake."

Consensus of opinion is Senator Clinton gave the correct answer here:

When Brian Williams asked Senator Clinton:

"Senator Clinton, same question." (He also previously asked it of former Senator Edwards, but his response wasn't discussed by the analysts.)

Senator Hillary Clinton's response:

"Well, again, having been a senator during 9/11, I understand very well the extraordinary horror of that kind of an attack and the impact that it has, far beyond those that are directly affected.

I think a president must move as swiftly as is prudent to retaliate.

If we are attacked, and we can determine who is behind that attack, and if there are nations that supported or gave material aid to those who attacked us, I believe we should quickly respond."

Technically at this point, another 'inept' response to a presidential question would be Obama's Third Strike against him.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

22. I agree. Both sides were doing well until Obama's Bush-Cheney comparison

The problem is not so much the substance of what he said but the politics of it. I was unsure who was getting the better of this political war until today. Comparing a leading Democrat to * and Cheney is not going to win over primary voters and others, especially when it comes from someone running on a "new kind of politics" who complains of the "smallness of the politics."

[ProudDad]

74. When it comes to sucking up to

the corporate capitalist masters, there's no difference between bush/cheney and Clinton and Obama and Edwards...

They're ALL DIRTY!!!

Whichever one gets elected (or selected) no substantive changes will be made that would take any power away from the Masters of the Universe that own each one of them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3428971#3429138

Oh, they'll talk nice while shoveling more money at the military-industrial complex, the health insurance mafia, big pharma and the prison-industrial complex and phony "war on drugs"...all the WRONG things...

[killbotfactory]

5. I don't understand how meeting with any of them

would harm the prestige of the President.

Meeting them doesn't mean endorsing everything they do.

[Colobo]

6. Hillary just wanted to pander to right-wingers. She wanted to sound "tough".

[SaveElmer]

9. Nope...she sounds like she knows what she is talking about...

Unlike Obama...who cannot even decide if he agrees with her or not

[Skip Intro]

29. Yes, she does.

I'm not attacking Obama by siding with Hillay in this situation. I like them all. Obama is not going to come out on top of this one, though.

[aquart]

33. No, I think this accords with her thinking.

Wish she liked Chavez, though. That's a friend we NEED.

[ProudDad]

75. EXACTLY

Meeting with any of them would be acting like a responsible adult in a World Community...

Oh, horrors!!! :sarcasm:

Of course, it wouldn't be fitting for one of the Rulers of the American Empire...

[Larkspur]

10. Hillary's been called Repuke-lite by the same bloggers she will visit at YearlyKos convention

that's the same as Bush-Cheney-lite nowadays.

[Forkboy]

14. She shouldn't knock it until she's tried it.

[rabidchickens]

21. Hillary Clinton lost any chance of getting my vote..

For comparing Castro and especially the democratically elected Chavez to that Iranian demon.

We are a left-leaning party, the neo-cons are rightist that support their autocratic regimes around the world, why are WE drawing these negative comparisions between Iran and Venezula instead of finding solidarity with the Venezeulan people

Is Clinton going to coup Chavez too like Bush did?

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hedgehog]

45. Welcome to Du!

Some of us like to hear from new people. Come on over to the Lounge for a good time!

[draft_mario_cuomo]

24. Team Clinton's experience is showing

Has anyone ever been able to outmaneuver Team Clinton in such a war?

[sandnsea]

28. If tinhorn dictators can put her power at risk

then she really really shouldn't be President.

[elizm]

64. She is pathetic. nt

[zulchzulu]

30. Dig deeper, Senator Clinton...deeper....

You're proving just who we think you are.

[snowbear]

35. Damn Elmer... she's friggin losing it !!

Whoa.

[SaveElmer]

36. ...

:rofl:


Think its the other way around...

[Dawgs]

37. What does his remarks have to do with 'the politics of hope'?

She's the one that supports Bush's foreign policy. Is he wrong?

[illinoisprogressive]

38. he never said he wouldn't hit back - hard - if attacked. her mistake

[Placebo]

39. She's right.

Obama is starting to sound like some of the posters on DU, not like a president.

[ProudDad]

76. Gee, having a pResident

who says "Fuck you" to the rest of the world has worked SOOOOOOOO well for that last 6 years...

Just what we need...another one like that named Clinton...

[Adelante]

40. Good one

"We have to ask what's ever happened to the politics of hope?"

[Kingstree]

42. This is a part of the Politics of Hope

eliminating the old world way of thinking in D.C, and looking forward diplomatically to ease some of the tensions in rogue nations as well as our allies regarding our foreign policy. Do we have support in Iraq? No. Are we trusted throughout the world? No!Does any nation want to help us? No! Are we looked upon as superior and arrogant to other nations, ally or rogue? Yes! Hillary's position keeps us in this fog using non talks as punishment. This is not the United States Of The World and we cannot exist alone, Iraq is the true testament to that. We have to do better and Obama knows that.

[Cameron27]

43. The Bush-Cheney lite reference was too much,

I'm disappointed Obama went that far.

[bigdarryl]

47. OH PLEASE this woman calls her self tough she should get over it

[hedgehog]

46. Just what part of politics of hope implies that Obama is a patsy

ready to roll over for any opponent?

[hijinx87]

48. point. hillary. n/t

[rudy23]

49. Obama didn't say anything about "rushing" into a meeting with dictators.

She's got the Bush/Cheney strawman down pat, I'll give her that.

[hijinx87]

50. in the first year of his administration is pretty quick . . .

what with setting up an administration, nominating a cabinet, purging
the * cronies, & etc.

that sounds a little bit like "rushing" to me.

[John Q. Citizen]

51. What's she afraid off? Having a conversation? That's pathetic. I guess Kennedy and the red phone

USSR was a disaster?

[zulchzulu]

52. What a goddamn phoney

She attacks Obama and then sits back and acts like it never happened.

Incoming, Team Clinton. You better batton the hatches.

[Tellurian]

69. So, where's the incoming...

Your guy is nowhere.. He's still trying to figure out if he's for nukes or not...not civilians..

a state of confusion, I'd say!

[martymar64]

53. I bet she'd meet up with Uribe in a heartbeat

She only likes right wing thugs like Uribe in Colombia and Calderon in Mexico.

[MGKrebs]

54. Fascinating. It's kind of a Clinton rope-a-dope.

He left a little opening, Clinton basically faked a punch, and Team Obama went for it. Now they are in danger of abandoning their core message, or at least the source of their idealist attraction. I'm very interested to see how this plays out.

I think Obama MUST back off. Team Clinton is probably trying to sucker them into more attacks. Clinton has nothing to lose here; she's already trying to look tough. Getting more chances to do that is all good for her. Obama is the one who is trying to be different.

I suspect they will try to let Obama damage himself as much as possible. The word "silly" is particularly clever. In the eyes of observers it devalues the discussion into the realm of nonsense, but to Team Obama it will feel like an insult. They will have a very hard time not responding to that, but they shouldn't. Let it go. Fight another day.

[Kingstree]

57. She started a fight she could not finish now she looks like a fool

and have lost votes because of it. African Americans took this issue as an insult and she will pay the price. She did not have to attack him personally and she did. She should debate on facts. It is her lost.

[MGKrebs]

68. Somebody used my line:

And describes the skirmish better than I did.

Clinton Rope-A-Dopes Obama

During Obama's push-back, Clinton's team was responding, but issuing a statement from Richard Holbrooke is more like a feint than a real counterattack. Indeed, by Wednesday night, an Obama aide was telling Atlantic blogger Marc Ambinder: "I think we've got her on her heels."

Or on the ropes, which is exactly where Clinton wanted to be. Having exposed Obama's weakness, she struck Thursday night in an interview with CNN:

"Well, this is getting silly. I've been called a lot of things in my life, but I've never been called George Bush or Dick Cheney, certainly. We have to ask, what's ever happened to the politics of hope?"

Was she inflating Obama's comments? Of course. It doesn't really matter, though. Clinton had struck at the core of Obama's campaign message and hit her mark. Maybe she and her team didn't strategize as methodically as the rope-a-dope theory suggests. Maybe all they wanted was to see what Obama would do if seriously challenged.

But Clinton picked this fight for a reason and it's unlikely that reason was entirely about exposing Obama's inexperience in foreign policy. Rather, Clinton baited Obama into the trenches so that everyone could see that he's just another politician.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/realclearpolitics/20070727/cm_rcp/clinton_ropeadopes_obama

[SOS]

55. "Chavez, and Castro, and Ahmadinejad"

Why is it ALWAYS these three?

Yet they ignore the mass murderer of Equatorial Guinea.
And never mention the public torture in Saudi Arabia.
Or the genocide in Burma.
Or the dissidents boiled alive in Uzbekistan.

Countries with oil deals with US oil companies may NEVER be questioned on their torture, murder and genocide.

Venezuala and Iran, on the other hand, must be excoriated daily. No Exxon oil deals there!

And Florida has 27 votes!

[ProudDad]

78. And don't forget Uribe in Columbia

and our buddy Musharraf in Pakistan...

and Umaru Yar'Adua in Nigeria...

and the Israeli fascists in Tel Aviv...

and many, many more...

Generals, Dictators, "Strong men" -- the U.S. loves and shovels money at them...if they're right-wing...

[zulchzulu]

56. What's ever happened to the Reality of NOT Defending Yourself?

Clinton thought to attack Obama and is just baffled that he came back to expose her. Does "hope" mean surrender? I think not.

[martymar64]

58. Enough with the Hillary infomercials, already!

We get it, you really like her.
Now please quit trying to shove her down our collective throats. It makes you sound like a shill.

[SaveElmer]

62. Funny how shocked people are...

When folks on a board devoted to politics, post news about politicians they support...and I imagine you have posted the same complaint on the dozens upon dozens of threads devoted to the wonderfulness of Barack Obama....right?

[Mass]

59. Never? Please...

As for the like of Chavez, Castro, and Ahmadinejad, they are legitimate leaders of their countries and, at least for Chavez and Castro, defending the interests of their country.

By saying that, Hillary shows she is not different from the neocons. I should thank her because I was still hesitating to support Obama, but now, I know he is for a different foreign policy and this is what I was looking for.

[elizm]

63. Welcome aboard! nt

[polichick]

65. The politics of hope:

I hope they're warming up to fight the Reps so we finally get enough votes to override the dirty tricks!

[BeyondGeography]

66. It's a good line...and that's about it

We'll see what has happened to the politics of hope the next time Obama draws an overflow crowd, which should be tomorrow, the next day and the day after that.

[ripple]

71. Proof positive that Clinton is worried

I was quite frankly surprised at her jab during the debate. 'Clear front-runners' don't get down and dirty unless they have to. This is actually great news for Obama.

As far as this specific issue, I would be concerned about any candidate that declines to meet with world leaders, no matter how despotic the leader. Putting a time frame for meeting (after her first year in office for Hillary) only encourages dangerous leaders to continue acquiring dangerous weapons, so that they have more leverage to bargain with. THAT is irresponsible and naive.

[Ethelk2044]

82. She is very worried

[ProudDad]

73. Screw the B*tCH!!!

She doesn't know SHIT about foreign policy if she can't tell the difference between "Chavez, and Castro, and Ahmadinejad"

Dennis Kucinich (and obviously, Barack Obama) do...

She's just a knee-jerk DINO...and (what's the feminine of "coward", eh yeah) COWARD...

[SaveElmer]

77. Isn't it past your bedtime little one....?

Your "ProudDad" isn't gonna like it you are using his ID to practice your curse words...

Go to bed and I won't tell on you!

[ProudDad]

79. Well, you just enjoy your

candidate if she wins...

Through the mushroom cloud caused by her ignorance... :nuke:

[Forkboy]

80. Not the funniest post ever...but close.

She's a full on idjit.She has zero room to talk about hope.She fills me with as much enthusiasm as a root canal treatment.

And I like how she buys right into the old,tired and lame,right-wing parroting about Castro/Chavez.She's cute when she's belligerent.Reminds me of Bush and Reagan,only with breasts.Sort of like the Alien queen laying her eggs,only these are the eggs of ignorance,nationalism,greed and stupidity.Whether or not they cling to your face and eat through steel is up for debate,but it's corrosive nonetheless.

Sorry,your choice has no legs to stand on when it comes to criticizing anyone.Obama is her clone,and every word she says against him applies to her as well.The politics of same old same old is hardly something to hang your hat on,though I give her bonus points for arrogance and blind ambition.It's the American Way (TM...copyright 1472).

[SaveElmer]

86. Not the funniest reply ever...but close...nt

[Forkboy]

88. Thanks!

I liked it too!

[Ethelk2044]

81. She is just mad that someone can fight her on her own level. She hit and expected him to just take

it. She realizes now that he will not only hit her back, but do a TKO if she attacks.

[MannyGoldstein]

85. It Slammed Into The Politics Of "Deck 'Em" n/t