Was Pat Tillman Murdered for being Anti-Bush?

[Vyan]

Friday on Countdown Keith Olbermann reported the new information the Army Ranger and Former NFL Star Pat Tillman was not only killed via "Fratricide" (Friendly Fire) but that it might also have been a deliberate act of murder due the close grouping of three M-16 shots in his forehead.

But not only that, could Tillman have been killed for his political views?

From Thinkprogress.

"Was the man the White House used to promote the war ordered to be killed because he was becoming increasingly critical of the war in Iraq?"

Watch Video from Countdown

Could it be that Tillman was fragged for bad mouthing Bush?

The idea of fragging a war critic may seem an extreme proposition, unless of course you happen to be a darling of the Right-wing like Ann Coulter.

On June 20 and 21, right-wing pundit Ann Coulter refused to explain -- and even expanded upon -- her recent claim that Rep. John P. Murtha (D-PA) is "the reason soldiers invented fragging,"

On Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, Coulter further expanded upon her statement, asserting that if Murtha "did get fragged, he'd finally deserve one of those Purple Hearts."

So it's not like what is being suggested here is entirely "unthinkable"- it's already been thought of in regards to those who have the temerity to dare question and criticize the Wars of Georege W. Bush.

Thinkprogress Continued...

Last night on MSNBC’s Countdown, host Keith Olbermann noted that "Corporal Tillman held a number of personal views that were unpopular within the context of the Bush administration, perhaps also within the Army." Tillman reportedly favored John Kerry in the presidential election, opposed the invasion of Iraq, and had plans to meet with Noam Chomsky.

Speaking on Countdown Jon Stolz of VoteVets.org posed the question.

We know he was a free thinker. But it leads you to think was this guy killed possibly by people that didn’t like his political views or was he killed accidentally? We had a time in the war when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in April 2004 in Iraq; we had basically the Iraqi Tet offensive where the Shiite militias rose up and the contractors were burned at the stake; the President was facing the election and he decided not to go into Fallujah for six months. Did they use him to justify, politically, bad policy in Iraq?

It may be a bit premature to neccesarily assign motives to what was clearly a tragic occurance - but the odd intensity of secrecy the Bush Administration has shown in exerting executive priviledge to block congresstional inquiries concerning this incident may be illustrative.

We already know that Tillman was shot by a fellow soldier, isn't that bad enough - what more could there be to hide?

Maybe the possibility that it wasn't an accident.

The Associated Press reported that in the last moments before Tillman died, another soldier was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, and Tillman said, "Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling –"

I've never served, or been involved in a situation with comrades whose lives depend on me as much as I depend on them, but it seems to me that there were some serious personal issues at play between Tillman and the person he was speaking too. Comments such as those clearly have History.

If these were indeed his last words on earth (and this has been heavily disputed) then the public and his family absolutely deserve to know if he was shot by the person he was yelling at - or someone else not involved in the scuffle. Either way, we're they just plain careless with their weapon, did they perceive Tillman's aggressive words as a threat and the last straw in a long standing arguement, did they simply have a momentary flash of rage and poor judgement or was it something else entirely?

The Tillman shooting occurred fairly early in our campaigns in both Afghanistan and Iraq, after several years of extended deployments, stop-loss, improperly and untreated cases of PTSD since the wars began there have been 116 confirmed cases of Soldier Suicide.

Latest official figures released by the Pentagon reveal at least 116 self-inflicted fatalities in Iraq. But this does not include several dozen still under investigation, nor any of the many cases back in the U.S.

The Star Tribune of Minneapolis reported the latest example today. It revealed that an Iraq war veteran reported missing in northern Minnesota -- and suffering from post-traumatic stress -- had been found dead.

With the tragedies of both Haditha and Moumoudiya now on record, Tillman's shooting just might have been an early warning sign that has gone unheaded.

Vyan

[Diane R]

1. I do believe Tillman was assassinated. Who gave the order, is the question.

[Inkyfuzzbottom]

2. Was Pat Tillman Murdered for being Anti-Bush?

In a word... YES

[maximusveritas]

3. The person Tillman was speaking to has already disputed that account

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/28/AR2007072801396.html

"He never would have called me 'sniveling,'" O'Neal said. "I don't remember ever speaking to this chaplain, and I find this characterization of Pat really upsetting. He never once degraded me. He's the only person I ever worked for who didn't degrade anyone. He wasn't that sort of person."

[RufusTFirefly]

4. Here's a related thread (and poll)

Do you think Pat Tillman was murdered by an American soldier?

Tillman was almost certainly killed by an American soldier, and I imagine it was because he was a focal point for resentment. Any number of reasons might've fired up one of his colleagues. Being anti-Bush, anti-Iraq invasion, wealthy, well-known, outspoken, left-learning and (apparently) not particularly religious might've individually or in combination been enough to threaten and/or anger a yahoo. And yahoos with guns are the worst kind.

[erpowers]

9. Military Personnel Left-Leaning

I think one of the best kept secret in this country is that their is a rather sizable number of military personnel that are left-leaning. From what I heard many enlisted members of the military are left-leaning. In addition, there are many people in the military who are well spoken and anti-Bush. The military seems less one dimensional than many people think and many people try to make it out to be.

[ngant17]

16. But I never believed that Oswald was a Marine and a Marxist

at the same time. Definitely not in the 1950's.

My first guess is that a lot of the left-leaning military guys are probably trying to put on an act to gain intelligence against their perceived enemies.

I once knew a 'Rosenberg' in the Army, this was 25 years ago, but he was ostacized and eventually booted out. I didn't know him much, but I think he was a real left-leaning soldier while he was still there.

It wouldn't seem logical that a real progressive would ever comtemplate making a career out of the 'death culture' in the military.

[Progressive Friend]

18. I agree

Even when Oswald was in the USSR, the intelligence services there thought that he was a US spy.

[tblue37]

22. It is the officer corps that is predominantly rightwing. n/t

[mitchum]

33. Absolutely, because many of them plan on working for the defense industry...

after they retire. They want to get in on that right wing gravy train.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

5. Good article here, too.

AP story, on CBS's SPORTSLINE website Nov. 9 06, while most of us were focusing on the mid terms.

This was the first I've read of this particular incident:

After killing Tillman, at least one of the same Rangers turned his guns on a village where witnesses say civilian women and children had gathered. The shooters raked it with fire, the American witnesses said; they wounded two additional fellow Rangers, including their own platoon leader.

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9789986/2

MKJ

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RamboLiberal]

41. Also from the CBS article

One investigator told Tillman's family that officials haven't ruled out that Tillman was shot by an American sniper or deliberately murdered by his own men -- though he also gave no indication the evidence pointed that way.

[PetrusMonsFormicarum]

6. Other Soldier Speaks

Vyan wrote

Maybe the possibility that it wasn't an accident.

The Associated Press reported that in the last moments before Tillman died, another soldier was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, and Tillman said, "Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling –"

I've never served, or been involved in a situation with comrades whose lives depend on me as much as I depend on them, but it seems to me that there were some serious personal issues at play between Tillman and the person he was speaking too. Comments such as those clearly have History.

If these were indeed his last words on earth (and this has been heavily disputed) then the public and his family absolutely deserve to know if he was shot by the person he was yelling at - or someone else not involved in the scuffle. Either way, we're they just plain careless with their weapon, did they perceive Tillman's aggressive words as a threat and the last straw in a long standing arguement, did they simply have a momentary flash of rage and poor judgement or was it something else entirely?

Here's a link to "the other soldier's" testimony: http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/072907E.shtml

We are still all speculating here, but it appears far more likely that the chaplain's description of events is more embellished and less than truthful. Shame on the chaplain, although lying, exaggerating, and obfuscating seems to be coming more and more naturally to modern clergy.

[Vyan]

12. Yes...

I included a link to the issues about the Chaplain after commenters revealed the dispute on the original DKOS version of this post.

[AndyTiedye]

7. EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE!! Why is Bush** Stonewalling Investigation by Declaring EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE???

There is something about this case that raises a very large red flag.

What is Bush** hiding behind his claim of
EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE
???????????????

[hack89]

23. He is hiding just how he manipulated Tillman's death

for crass political purposes. He knows the public would not stand for it.

[AndyTiedye]

30. Murdering Bastards!

[erpowers]

8. I Doubt It

I seriously doubt he was shot because he was anti-Bush. It seems that many groups in the military are close, especially the so-called (no insult was meant by the use of so-called) elite group. I think the bond they have goes beyond politics. I think many of these groups value the people in their groups more than they value any one president. I think this was a real accident and people just got scared. I think this has more to do with covering up for Bush than covering up for wrong doing.

In addition, it does seem possible that Tillman could have been shot in the way he was. I think the M-16 has three different shot selections. I think it has a safety, a single round, and a burst round. In the burst round three bullets come out right after each other without the person pulling the trigger have to pull the trigger more than once. So, it is very possible that people in Tillman's group did not know were each other was and just starting shooting at anything that moved.

[Stargazer99]

10. If this were so I think it is time to fire those in control

and start training our troops better. Drs said approx 10 yards. And with the power and smelly attitude for the like a Coulter you are telling me there isn't something fishy here?

[TheOtherMaven]

11. Something's TERRIBLY fishy

But it may not be what a lot of people here are thinking.

On another "Was Tillman Murdered? thread, someone described a scenario based on what has come out so far, that did not involve deliberate assassination...and it was actually far more horrifying.

He painted a picture - I don't know if he realized it was coming across like this or not - of young men acting like mindless zombie killer-bots, running on nothing but adrenalin, their brains completely shut off and non-functional, blind and deaf to anything beyond the immediate need to killkillkill, who GOT OUT OF THEIR VEHICLE, WALKED TOWARD THEIR TARGET, AND PULLED THEIR TRIGGERS EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD CLEARLY SEE HIS FACE AND HE WAS WAVING HIS ARMS AND SCREAMING HIS NAME IN PLAIN ENGLISH!!!!!

If THIS is the hideous truth at the bottom of the Tillman scandal, then there is something horribly, fundamentally wrong with the way the US Armed Forces trains its troops.

It may be true that "a moment's hesitation can get you killed" - but we are seeing more and more examples of how the FAILURE to hesitate gets innocent bystanders murdered, and now the very real, very ugly possibility that it gets their own comrades killed.

Do we HAVE to choose between charcoal black and jet black? Are there NO lighter shades of grey?

[Vyan]

14. That scenario

would be closer to what I envision, and it's why I brought up the comparison to Moumoudiya and Haditha. In short, things were OUT OF CONTROL!

Vyan

[Connonym]

27. This would be my best guess

I've never been a soldier, cannot imagine what it must feel like but from the things I have read I can't help but think that when you're in a war situation there has to be some emotional disconnect. The fight or flight instinct is very real and it must become very intense under that kind of stress. I don't think it's just the way the US Army trains its troops, I think it's probably that way with all soldiers everywhere during war.

[madhoosier]

38. There was an article in Rolling Stone about

a year ago on basic training that was excellent. One of the facts was that in the Civil War only about half the soldiers fired to kill, in W. W. I the percent went up to 60%, in W. W. II it rose a little more and same for Vietnam. Today they estimate that 96% of U.S. soldiers shoot to kill. Basic training is brainwashing today.

Rolling Stone did not put the article online back when it came out and I don't remember the title or author.

[understandinglife]

13. You may want to read O'Neal's statement ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1464146&mesg_id=1464146

He denies Tillman said what you have quoted - "Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling –"

That doesn't mean that I think it unlikely that Tillman was fragged ...


Peace.

[treestar]

15. The actual shooter is not identified, right?

Though he was anti-Bush, he might not have been unpopular with his unit. So I guess it would take interviewing the members. But then, I guess that's executive privilege. :sarcasm:

[whistle]

17. Clearly a thorough independent investigation must be reopened

...on this case given all the inconsistencies which have come to light. Something terribly wrong occurred and given the level of cover-up and denials by the Pentagon to devulge any information even to the Tillman family about this case, it must be opened up again.

Fiat justitia, ruat coelum.

"Let justice be done, though the heavens fall." And let truth be the basis for that justice.

[TygrBright]

19. The most likely reason would seem to be...

...that Tillman had observed something he considered detrimental to mission performance-- abuse or killing of civilians, possibly, or theft, profiteering, looting by fellow soldiers, something that abraded the potential effectiveness of their unit in carrying out the mission. If it was clear to those involved that he wasn't the kind of man to wink at such antics, or put unit cohesion above overall mission effectiveness, someone might have decided to take action.

From what has been described of Tillman, he was not the sort of man to make public protests about personal beliefs that intersected with his duties as a soldier. And even in the early days there were plenty of soldiers griping among themselves about how stupid the whole mess was, he wouldn't have been any different from hundreds of others, even in a Ranger unit. But such bitching is largely kept among themselves, and his apparent sense of duty would probably have precluded him taking it further than that while he was in uniform and deployed in a combat assignment.

He might have spoken out when he returned, but there's no reason to assume that such intentions would be regarded as sufficiently threatening to those in the field with him to merit a fragging. The more likely explanation, if it was a fragging, was something that would have direct, immediate, and personal impact on others in his unit-- like being reported for conduct violating the UCMJ and potentially detrimental to mission success.

speculatively,
Bright

[BornagainDUer]

24. Tillman, a man who knew too much? nt

[pingzing58]

20. We know that Bush does not like to speak of problems with his actions, decisions, etc.

I really think that what Bush means when he asserts executive privilege is "let's not talk about this and it will go away - end of discussion." But, just like Sheehan and any grieving parent, his parents won't let it go - because it sill hurts too much and their loss is still too great.

[tom_paine]

21. 95% possibility/probability

n/t

[antiimperialist]

25. I see no evidence pointing at deliberate murder

Nobody in the platoon had beef with Tillman, according to interviews with his mates.
There was fire between the two halves of Tillman's platoon. He got caught in between.

[Schema Thing]

31. Well, the medical examiner does see evidence pointing to murder

[zehnkatzen]

28. From People Who are Willing to Lie to Advance the Cause, This Is What We Get...

The evidence of the real cancer on our society, If I may go a bit rarefied here, is not so much that Pat Tillman died, regardless of the cause, but the endless conversation that results because nobody can trust what we are told by those in charge anymore.

Think of it this way; if the Government and military had come clean on Tillman's death soon after it happened, there would have been reprisal (heads would have rightly rolled), dismay and further disillusionment of the citizenry.

But I hold that that hypothetical damage was reparable, because the truth would have been told, and where there's truth, there's common hope. If we can believe the essential facts of any such situation, and can trust that we as a group weren't being told a story for PR purposes, then we can build–and maybe even heal–from that common base.

Someone once said "trust is the coin of the realm." It was George Schultz, a Reagan administration member, during what were then the bad old days, making of the remark high irony.

In the case of Pat Tillman, however look what we have here: an establishment (the American general staff) which has had the past public reputation of honesty and accountability (deserved or other) has apparently refused to be square with the public on the essential facts of the matter. And if you can't trust the people you are supposed to be able to trust...well, who can you trust anymore.

This is regrettably an ongoing theme with the Republican way of doing business; it goes back to Nixon–assume positions of trust then abuse them without remorse or apology, only stopping on the way out to sigh and say to oneself "gosh, we did the best we could."

Pretty soon, none of us are trusting anyone anymore, and we get stuck in endless go arounds trying to parse what they are telling us.

Ever notice everyone around you is kind of suspicious of everything?

I seem to recall it wasn't always this way.

But maybe that's just me, neh?

[Synnical]

29. Was he Fragged because he was an atheist?

That subject came up in atheists discussion groups. I discounted it, at the time, because of the "friendly fire" reports. Now I wonder.

[mitchum]

32. Yes (n/t)

[eridani]

34. A brief enumeration of possibilities suggested so far.

1. Someone higher up ordered the hit to get rid of a potentially embarassing campaigner for Kerry and the Dems in 2004, or to forestall undermining of popular support for the war.
2. It actually was a 'fog of war' incident, which higher-ups reflexively tried to cover up because Tillman was a poster boy and that would look much worse than the typical friendly fire incident. There are probably a few odd scenarios you could think up that might result in a panic shooting at 10 yards, and very unlikely things occasionally do really occur.
3. Personal rancor--someone didn't like it that he was anti-Bush, an atheist, promoted over their heads just because he was a football star, a smartypants intellectual, etc.
4. Tillman was preparing to reveal someone's wrongdoing (high-handedness with civilians, getting cozy with drug trafficking warlords, etc.) and was taken out to prevent this.
5. Tillman was the gung-ho sort who took on dangerous and pointless missions, and was killed by someone who didn't want to keep doing that. (Standard Vietnam fragging motive.)

The burning of his diary points to 1, 3 or 4, but lots of speculations are plausible in the absence of full information. At some point, investigators wondered enough about the possibility of 3 to actually ask whether anybody in his unit might have had a grudge against him. The executive privilege invocation might or might not mean something--by this time it's more of a tropism than a strategy coming from Bushies.

[jmp]

35. Are you people nuts???

Yeah, the US Army Rangers murdered one of their own for being "anti-Bush" ... despite the fact that no one outside his immediate circle knew that he was anti-Bush (assuming he even was) or would ever find out while Bush was still in office. :eyes:

Tillman served honorably and died in combat. End of story.

[Warren Stupidity]

36. Lets see:

Tillman served honorably? Yes on that.

Died in combat? Uh, no.

End of story? You wish. Certainly the White House also wishes this would end.

"the US Army Rangers murdered one of their own" it is called fragging and it happens. When there is a friendly fire incident, as in the Tillman case, murder cannot be ruled out until there is a full investigation. What we had instead in the Tillman case was a cover up. Why?

By the way, starting a post with "Are you people nuts???" is rather offensive. Following up with a display of ignorance is not goint to improve your status here.

[underpants]

37. I've been saying that they had him killed for a long time now

either it was a direct hit or they made sure he was going to be put in as many bad situations as possible.

Once we found out how this hero stood on Bush and the war on Iraq and everything it all made sense. I have observed these animals for too long to not see this from what it most likely is-they couldn't risk him doing one interview on ESPN not even one let alone word of his meeting with Chomsky getting out.

They offed him. I have no doubt in my mind.

[IndianaJones]

39. HA. no. nt.

[whistle]

40. I believe Pat Tillman was murdered, I believe it was an ordered hit

...from very high up and that is why a thorough, independent prosecutor investigation is warranted to get to the truth behind this crime.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. No, of course not, don't be silly.

I wish all the questions I got asked were this easy.