Obama revives diplomacy debate with Clinton

[ariesgem]

Monday, July 30, 2007

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is continuing his running debate with competitor Hillary Clinton over foreign diplomacy. During an event this morning in Cedar Rapids, Obama said Washington experience often results in relying on conventional wisdom -- even if it doesn't work.

"When you don't learn from it, that's how people end up voting for this war in Iraq. People were not willing to ask difficult questions because the conventional wisdom inside Washington was either this was going to be a cakewalk or it would be political suicide to vote against it," Obama said, referring to Clinton's vote giving President Bush authority to act in Iraq.

At last week's debate among Democratic presidential candidates, Obama said he would meet with hostile leaders of foreign nations in his first year in office. Clinton called the strategy "naive."

Also today, Obama accused the Bush Administration of cronyism and Obama promised that if he's elected president, he will forbid his aides to deal with issues involving former employers.

"When you leave, you will not be able to lobby the administration throughout the remainder of my term in office," Obama said. "...You will not be able to leave and then use the 'revolving door' to cash in on your service."

http://www.radioiowa.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=18B19C80-9621-9D93-D55F2A671614A76F

[Clintonista2]

1. Why is he dragging this out?

He's already lost this one. Very poor political move on his part.

[TeamJordan23]

3. Who is your source to back that up? Neo Cons and the Weekly Standard? nm

[jenmito]

8. Must be. Them and Lieberman. n/t

[rinsd]

20. Lieberman? You mean Obama's mentor?

[jenmito]

22. No...I mean Lieberman the now-member of the "CT for Lieberman" party n/t

[ariesgem]

4. Polls indicated that the majority of people agreed with Obama on this one.

Clinton gave the platform to him on a platter and I hope he runs with it.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

7. Polls show Obama falling, Clinton rising over the past week

Yes, by the same firm. ;) The problem is not the issue itself but Obama's attacks. Part of his appeal is based on him being marketed as being uniquely "above" such attacks. Now the man who is supposed to transform 200+ of American politics has resorted to calling his opponent "naive and irresponsible" and "Bush-Cheney-lite." It is almost as if Clinton lured Obama into a trap.

[TeamJordan23]

11. You are basing it on one Poll. nm

[draft_mario_cuomo]

16. So are the people who are claiming Obama won nt

[Clintonista2]

10. Well, when you take two opposing positions on the same subject...

You're pretty much covering everybody. I personally still can't remember his newest position on this subject, does he want to meet with dictators in his first year, as he mentioned in the debate? Or does he not want to, as he affirms now?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

17. His position as of yesterday was back to the "Bush-Cheney-lite" position held by HRC

;)

[Schema Thing]

5. I think it's a valid debate

and I think he's winning, at least in the sense that he's right.

Also, even if it's a stalemate, as long as he drags it out by making legitimate points, as he did above, he puts Hillary on notice that there won't be any freebies.

[Radicalman]

13. He's dragging this out 'cause.......

No he hasn't lost on this one: 1) Hillary made a mistake when she attacked Obama after the debate. I can see her doing it during the debate but she dragged it out by talking about his lack of experience, etc. Maybe they thoight he had a "glass jaw" and couldn't take a punch, but it was a miscalculation; 2) He's behind her in the polls and an alley fight over nothing (there isn't anything of substance to either camp's statements -- substance is rare in American politics with some rare exceptions such as Kucinich and Edwards) put Obama on more of an equal playing field with Clinton; 3) and the Mr. Outside The Beltway versus Mrs. Inside The Beltway works to Obama's advantage; and $) It reminds me that Husband Bill started the genocidal activities against Irag ( 500,000 dead Iraqi children because of the Clinton led embargo) and makes me hope that Obama isn't cut from the same immoral suit of militaristic clothing. Of course, I have no idea if he is or not. America (Clusterfuck Country) is a very violent place whose solution to everything it to kill it, imprison it, or flush it down the ghetto toilet. Obama. even though he's "black" may have his hands on those levers. Never forget, Hillary voted for the war when many of us, including Obama opposed it. Keeping the debate going helps Obama.

I'd like to why you thing Obama's lost this one. Can you provide any premise support for your conclusion or are you like most people in Clusterfuck Country, clueless when it comes to argumentation and political analysis?

[Radicalman]

14. He's dragging this out 'cause.......

No he hasn't lost on this one: 1) Hillary made a mistake when she attacked Obama after the debate. I can see her doing it during the debate but she dragged it out by talking about his lack of experience, etc. Maybe they thoight he had a "glass jaw" and couldn't take a punch, but it was a miscalculation; 2) He's behind her in the polls and an alley fight over nothing (there isn't anything of substance to either camp's statements -- substance is rare in American politics with some rare exceptions such as Kucinich and Edwards) put Obama on more of an equal playing field with Clinton; 3) and the Mr. Outside The Beltway versus Mrs. Inside The Beltway works to Obama's advantage; and $) It reminds me that Husband Bill started the genocidal activities against Irag ( 500,000 dead Iraqi children because of the Clinton led embargo) and makes me hope that Obama isn't cut from the same immoral suit of militaristic clothing. Of course, I have no idea if he is or not. America (Clusterfuck Country) is a very violent place whose solution to everything it to kill it, imprison it, or flush it down the ghetto toilet. Obama. even though he's "black" may have his hands on those levers. Never forget, Hillary voted for the war when many of us, including Obama opposed it. Keeping the debate going helps Obama.

I'd like to why you thing Obama's lost this one. Can you provide any premise support for your conclusion or are you like most people in Clusterfuck Country, clueless when it comes to argumentation and political analysis?

[PurityOfEssence]

41. He's dragging it out because he's winning on it, but it's still a bad idea

They both took hits on this, but he's come out somewhat better. She seems stern, cold, lifeless, disingenuous and ruthless, as well as seeming to have a Bush-like disdain for diplomacy; in ensuing rounds, she's continued all this while also looking thin-skinned. He looks sloppy, inexperienced, and far too flexible when interpreting what he did or didn't mean, but the heart of the matter is this: it can be and has been painted as engagement (his) versus unilateral bullying (hers). The experience issue aside, the only ones cozying up to her stance here are blind fans and reactionaries. Most sentient beings are sick of the cowboy schtick after Junior's swaggering rampages.

For this, he wins, but to drag it out is ridiculous. At this point, he's won a minor tactical victory, but he's now coming off as clueless in his attempt to make it more than the molehill it is.

This is hurting them both, and they've gained as much as they can from it; continued haranguing only hurts them both. He's just flush with the immature thrill of having somewhat turned around a minor to sizable embarrassment. Sure, he may score a few more hits on Hillary by portraying her as a blockheaded dominator, but to do so reminds everyone of the sloppiness that got him into it in the first place and smacks of dishonesty for continuing to portray her as such. It makes him look like someone focused on tactical gain at all cost with no loyalty to accuracy.

He's like someone who gets off a good spontaneous joke at a cocktail party, then bores everyone by repeating it for days after, not getting the fact that it's not working. She's just looking sourer and nastier with each rejoinder.

Why aren't their handlers talking some sense into them?

(edit for spleling)

[Forkboy]

47. Many excellent points there!

That's one of the more insightful posts I've seen in awhile (i.e.....one I agree with ;) )

[PurityOfEssence]

52. Funny how that works, isn't it?

I'm witcha on this one...

It's interesting how some of the most "nuanced" and "complicated" things can boil down quickly to a taste or a feeling that's widely shared--as I'll bet this one is--while the combatants and their legions of hot-shot spinners completely miss the general annoyance.

The shark that was jumped is long gone, yet the jumping continues...

Blagablagablaga.

[TeamJordan23]

2. I wouldn't really say he is reviving it. He has always talked about his opposition to Iraq War. nm

[elizm]

6. A message that needed to get out there...

Conventional wisdom got us into this war because those inside Washington were afraid to ask the difficult questoions. Thank you Hillary for opening the door. And thank you Obama for continuing to drive it home.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

9. Memo to Obama: everyone knows about the IWR

Just like we did in 2004 when President Dean and Vice President Clark won. ;)

[TeamJordan23]

15. According to a recent poll shown on MTP, 11% never heard of him.

And including people on this forum, like Penguin, know nothing about him.

Should Edwards stop talking about poverty because all of America knows that poverty exists?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

19. No one has universal name ID except for Hillary

Obama will not achieve universal name ID unless he wins the nomination. Look at Edwards. He ran last time, was the VP nominee and his name ID is only 6% better than Obama's. Most in that 11% are not going to know who he is unless he wins the nomination, and they won't be voting anyway in the primaries.

[TeamJordan23]

21. Should Edwards stop his constant poverty message, b/c afterall, don't we all know poverty exists?

I, for one, don't think he should stop. It is his strength. Just like Obama's opposition to the war is a strength.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

25. Poverty is part of his platform. Obama doesn't talk much about his platform on Iraq

For good reason. His position on Iraq is identical to Hillary's (he has been Hillary-lite since 2005) so why highlight that when you can continue to milk what you said in 2002?

It would be great if Obama started to talk more about what he would do as president...

[TeamJordan23]

28. Sorry, but Judgment is a something voters look for in a President. nm

[draft_mario_cuomo]

30. Axelrod is that you?

Axelrod also believes in focusing on personality and biography, not issues.

[TeamJordan23]

34. Yep, just like Edwards fighting against poverty throughout his career. nm

[draft_mario_cuomo]

48. Name one candidate who has offered more specifics than Edwards

It certainly is not the senator from platitudes.

[rinsd]

32. And right now they think Hillary has that judgement

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/trust_on_issues

[TeamJordan23]

36. Hillary is not even mentioned in that poll. nm

[rinsd]

39. Whoops. wrong link

Which of those candidates would you trust the most to handle national security issues?

Hillary Clinton - 28%

Rudy Giuliani - 20%

Barack Obama - 15%

Fred Thompson - 11%

John Edwards - 6%

John McCain - 7%

Mitt Romney - 2%

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/who_s_best_on_national_security_28_say_clinton_20_giuliani

[draft_mario_cuomo]

49. rinsd, have you no decency?

Putting the dagger through another cherished myth. Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

[RBInMaine]

51. No but, but he MUST talk about the middle class too.

I believe Edwards right now is actually the most viable candidate to defeat the R's in the general election. Hillary and Obama are both very good objectively and would be very good Presidents, but each have some VERY risky qualities. That said, Edwards needs to talk about the struggles of the MIDDLE CLASS primarily and not merely continue to beat the poverty drum. It is a VERY noble cause and one too long ignored, but he doesn't help himself making the absolute centerpiece of his campaign. MIDDLE CLASS working folks are struggling indeed, and their needs can't be forgotten. (Remember Clinton talking about "the forgotten middle class".) Edwards MUST broaden his message. His campaign is sounding too single-issue and he risks losing the middle class folks he needs to win the nomination let along the general election. He has always done best when he talks about the plight of the middle and working classes in addition to those in poverty.

[PurityOfEssence]

44. Actually, many DON'T know that poverty exists

Talk to some middle and upper class reactionaries sometime and they'll tell you straight to your face that even the poorest in this country are doing SO much better than many of the wogs in the third world. There's no real want here; there's no starvation or malnutrition, and not only that, this country has the greatest upward mobility in the world for anyone who has the gumption to get off his/her ass and work as hard as they claim they have.

This is a serious point: many REALLY don't believe there's any poverty, and because of the media's complicity, there's no evidence that there really is.

So enough of that silly point; let's get back to examining this incredibly juvenile pettinessfest by the front-runners.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

50. You are exactly right. Good post

:applause:

[jenmito]

18. The IWR was more popular in '04 than it is now...

ask Hillary who didn't regret her vote for the IWR in '04.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

23. The IWR was also a bigger deal in the 2003-2004 campaign than it is now

Just ask President Dean and Vice President Clark.

Remember President Dean ticking off the list of his opponents who voted for the IWR (plus Clark, who he tried to cast as pro-war) during a debate?

The IWR was more popular in 2004 but it was very unpopular among Democratic primary voters. The IWR is what rode Dean to the nomination and Clark to 2nd, which led to the Dean-Clark ticket.

[TeamJordan23]

24. And you really think that Dean and Clark lost just because they opposed the IWR? nm

[draft_mario_cuomo]

29. No. The IWR helped them--but the IWR card can only go so far nt

[ariesgem]

26. You don't think the GOP will do to her what they did to Kerry?

I can picture it now - "I was FOR the war before I was AGAINST the war"

[draft_mario_cuomo]

27. They will do that to anyone we nominate

Unless they nominate Romney. :rofl:

[rinsd]

31. What you think the GOP will sit on their hands when it comes to Obama?

Any of our Democrats is gonna get shit come the general election.

If you think Obama is scandal proof I suggest you take another look at your candidate.

[ariesgem]

38. I never said he was scandal-proof.

He's been in the limelight for some time now. You'd think they would've come up with something major by now.

Can you say that about Hillary?

[rinsd]

40. You haven't heard of Barack Osama?

"He's been in the limelight for some time now. You'd think they would've come up with something major by now"

They don't need anything major. They simply lie.

How do you think they turned a war hero like Kerry into some deserter?

[jenmito]

35. It was more popular. That's why Hillary still supported it.

Now that she will need to win the support of the Dems. in a tough race she's totally against it.

[jefferson_dem]

33. I bet you wish that little bit of reality would go away...

You know, the old "Edwards was co-sponsor" thingy.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

37. Yes. That is why President Dean and Vice President Clark beat Kerry, Edwards nt

[Forkboy]

12. He needs to be careful of making Hillary's mistake of overplaying her hand.

She scored early and then tried to pile on,which backfired because Obama scored back.Now he's the one who needs to know when to pull back and let something sink in.

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Pretty obvious dynamic, isn't it?

Thanks for boiling it down so nicely.

[BeyondGeography]

45. I would agree with you, however

today's narrative in Obama World was, "Washington is a mess and insider experience is overrated." He talked about ethics, curbs on lobbyists and the Iraq mess. Meantime, the media is having too much fun with last week's debate spat and they can't let go; any thing diplomacy- or Iraq-related will be spun as a continuation of the dipute. Obama should steer clear of the matter for a day or two, just to make sure they have nothing to work with.

[Forkboy]

46. I agree with your assesment wholeheartedly.

I think Obama would be wise to let this drop for a few while he (in my mind anyways) is ahead.The media is going to run with the slightest provocation now.Best not to give them one this far out.

[zulchzulu]

43. Clinton allowed Obama to hammer away at her jumping the shark

She opened a can of worms that she should have left deeply stored in the back shelf. She lobbed the grenade and the fuse didn't blow up. It got tossed right back at her. Neocons who think she did well say that because they either don't like diplomacy or they want her to be the nominee.

Her IWR vote and recent statements that conflict with her attack on Obama are just some of the things she will have to be on the defensive about.