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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 10:55 AM
Original message
solid blue California at risk for Dems?
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 11:22 AM by welshTerrier2
the article below suggests that trouble may be brewing for Democrats in California. if true, this could have a huge impact on the 2008 presidential election. but first, a little background and analysis that might be useful ...

there's a group called The National Popular Vote.

NOTE: I don't believe this group has anything to do with the "California" initiative described below.

Here's a brief description of their mission statement:

The National Popular Vote bill would guarantee a majority of the Electoral College to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The bill would reform the Electoral College so that the electoral vote in the Electoral College reflects the choice of the nation's voters for President of the United States.


The basic idea is to "get around" the Electoral College. States are being asked to sign-on to a plan under which the state's electoral votes would be divided pro rata according to the "national popular vote." The idea would be to essentially strip the Electoral College of its power and prevent the kind of nonsense we had in 2000 when Al Gore won the national popular vote but "lost" (don't say it!!) the election because of the Electoral College. The plan would not go into effect until two-thirds of the states have signed-on to the plan. The group expects to have the number of states they need before the 2012 election.

I think the idea is great but the implementation is flawed. If more so called "blue states" sign-on, and thus divvy up their electors, but some large "red states" don't sign-on, the red states might cast all their electoral votes for a republican while the Democratic states are diluted pro rata.

With that background, here's what's going on in California:

source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070731/ap_on_el_pr/california_votes_2

A Republican-backed ballot proposal could split left-leaning California between the Democratic and GOP nominees, tilting the 2008 presidential election in favor of the Republicans.

California awards its cache of 55 electoral votes to the statewide winner in presidential elections — the largest single prize in the nation. But a prominent Republican lawyer wants to put a proposal on the ballot that would award the statewide winner only two electoral votes.

The rest would be distributed to the winning candidate in each of the state's congressional districts. In effect, that would create 53 races, each with one electoral vote up for grabs.

California has voted Democratic in the last four presidential elections. But the change — if it qualifies for one of two primary ballots next year and is approved by voters — would mean that a Republican would be positioned the following November to snatch 20 or more electoral votes in GOP-leaning districts.

That's a number equal to winning Ohio.

The so-called Presidential Election Reform Act is being pushed by Thomas Hiltachk, a lawyer in a Sacramento firm that represents the California Republican Party and has worked with Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger. He did not return phone messages left Monday at his office. <skip>

Democratic consultant Chris Lehane called the plan "an effort to rig the system in order to fix the election."

"If this change is made, it will virtually guarantee that a Republican wins the White House in 2008," Lehane said in an e-mail.

Nineteen of the state's 53 congressional districts are represented by Republicans. President Bush carried 22 districts in 2004, while losing the statewide vote by double digits. <skip>
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CaliforniaPeggy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 11:04 AM
Response to Original message
1. Great idea, but yes, the implementation is flawed, big time!
The law should also state that it will not go into effect until/unless all the states sign on...

And as for what's happening here in California!

This is so wrong, on so many levels, that I hardly know where to start...

It looks like an attempt by Hiltachk to hijack any future election.

He must be stopped.

I suspect that his proposition will meet with very heavy opposition here, and ultimately be defeated.

K&R
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:09 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Thanks Peggy.
There's been a rash of post about this today.

It's NOT gonna happen. With our great Secretary of State in California, this is just silly talk.
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dansolo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 11:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Electoral votes should be split by popular vote by state
Splitting the votes by the popular vote basically eliminates the Electoral College. You might as well just abolish the Electoral College outright.

I think that the Electoral College Votes should be split by popular vote for the Electors that correspond to the number of districts in the state, and then the extra two electors go to the overall winner of the state.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. the Electoral College is in the Constitution and would be hard to eliminate
I think the intent of the National Popular Vote group is to circumvent the difficult process of changing the Constitution to eliminate the Electoral College.

As for your last statement, are you saying you endorse the California proposal? It seems to me this has to be done on a nation-wide basis and not just in a single state. The plan you're advocating is exactly what is being called for by the republicans in California.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yes, it takes only 13 states to block an amendment
It would be very hard indeed.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. correction to OP (too late to edit)
it appears that the National Popular Vote program would go into effect when a majority of the available electors (i.e. 270) would be covered by the program. This means it could be triggered with very few states signing on to the program. It appears the 2/3 of the states in the OP is not correct.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
5. It should be, the winner of the national popular vote gets all of the state's EV's
If 2/3rds of the states signed on to that, campaigning for individual states would be useless since the majority of electors would go to whoever wins the national popular vote.

As for the system of dividing it up by congressional districts, that's about the most unfair way to do it since districts can be gerrymandered.

This won't pass. Democrats will spend money on a massive GOTV effort as will the GOP, but Democrats are the majority in California.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
6. The downside risk is at least equal to the foreseeable benefit
I agree with the sentiment that the idea of changing to a national popular vote is good, but this particular proposed implementation is flawed.

We'd end up with the EC still in place, and my state's electoral votes being decided by events outside of the state.

The only proper fix is a federal constitutional amendment to eliminate the EC. Many articulate, thoughtful people have tried to convince me otherwise, and have all failed.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. BTW - CA Republicans are proposing splitting our EC vote
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 06:44 PM by slackmaster
So they are allocated among the various party candidates in proportion to the popular vote each receives.

Pardon the source but http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291538,00.html

Maine and Nebraska already do that. If they all did, it would have the same net effect as the proposed NPV kludge being adoped by all the states.

Of course not many California Democrats would be willing to give up the huge power leverage the present system gives us. But few are candid enough to admit that they are motivated by a desire to keep or expand power rather than make it all more "fair".

The only reason California appears "solid blue" is because of the way we allocate EC votes now - Winner takes all. The state is far from solidly Democratic.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. yes -- people forget that -- we gave the nation
ronald reagan.

elected pete wilson -- a disaster -- and lets not forget our current d'uh in chief -- ahnuld.
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Donna Zen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Maine already splits the electoral vote
by congressional district.
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. and Nebraska too ...
it makes sense. the trick is getting the transition right for the rest of the states.

tinkering around with electoral mechanisms requires an understanding of the impact. even this National Popular Vote group that has such good intentions doesn't seem to have it right.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
14. The NPV group seems blind to what look to me like obvious unintended consequences
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 08:26 PM by slackmaster
It's about as likely to result in one's state going to the Republican candidate as the Democrat. If your state has an overall Democratic majority (like California, New York, or Illinois) it just doesn't make sense to leave the EC in place and allow the voters at large to determine your electoral vote allocation.
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democratsin08 Donating Member (312 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
13. leave the electoral college alone
i think it works just fine as it is
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ronnykmarshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Not in 2000
but yes, I agree.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Would you characterize your home state as small?
:D
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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. did you think that in 2000? n/t
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Hawaii Hiker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. I agree, leave it alone
It certainly isn't perfect, but for fuck's sake, you can't divide California's electoral votes, without dividing Ohio's, Florida's, Texas's..Sure, why not Texas, El Paso, Austin are Democratic areas in that red state....

If your're going to split electoral votes, then it needs to be done across the board in all 50 states......You can't split CA & keep the status quo everywhere else...

I would hope the Democrats fight this HARD, as the proposal by the REPUBLICAN lawyer from Sacramento is just a way to steal the fucking election......

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Don't worry
They ain't got a chance of passing that crap in California...
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. That abortion, the Electoral College is the most undemocratic part
Edited on Tue Jul-31-07 08:55 PM by ProudDad
of the U.S. Constitution.

It was designed to preserve the privilege of White, Land-Owning Males against the rule of the mob.

Total bullshit....


But, impossible to get rid of because it give pipsqueek states like cheney-ville (Wyoming) and hatch-land (Utah) a disproportionate say in our electoral process. It's not fair... So, of course, it's impossible to get rid of it.

So's the Senate. Why should a crap-hole like Idaho or Mississippi or Alaska (for crap's sake) get the same number of Senators as New York or Massachusetts? Doesn't freakin' make sense...

Unless one remembers that the Electoral College and the Senate were "compromises" to assuage the sensibilities of the slave-holding states -- In other words, to make the racist, slave-owning fucks happy to join the "union"...


But, if all 50 states agreed to give ALL of their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote, it would make the damn thing irrelevant. Of course, that won't happen either for the reason detailed above.


The California pukes ARE INDEED trying to steal some electoral votes from California since they're incapable of fooling a majority of Californians that their bullshit is worth voting for...


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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. "a crap-hole like Idaho"
you know, it's almost poetry ...
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-31-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. And entirely rhetorical
I've been to Utah, Wyoming, Idaho, New York and Mississippi and lived in California and Massachusetts...

And they're all beautiful places with lots of nice people...



(There, now please don't kill me)



I watched Borat last night -- Great Satire...especially the Rodeo scene...
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