Who really supports Hillary?

[Botany]

I might not be the brightest light on God's Xmas tree but these polls and
the media hype seem way off base. I know tons of Dems. in Ohio and know
of nobody who supports Hillary in the primary .... and yet I keep seeing these
polls that all but say Hillary is a done deal.

Serious responses only .... paid bloggers please stay away (from any candidate).

[Patsy Stone]

1. I know of two people

A waitress at my favorite diner, and a guy at work.

That's all I got. :hi:

[LostinVA]

2. My fiance and I

I'm a Democratic Socialist and she's very progressive on most issues, aside from gun control and the death penalty.

Does Hillary fit me perfectly? No, but she's certainly better than the other options.

[IndyOp]

3. People who think Fortune magazine is real and relevant...

[tiptoe]

158. It's all a veneer...

...an unreal "matrix"...as corporatists/DLC impose to "create a reality"

Here are a few realities the "matrix" of Fortune "Hillary/DLC covers", fraudelent e-vote-machines, voter suppression, fake-pollsters, controlled-media/'Couric-TV' are fighting (usually fraudulently, illegally) to keep "submerged":

1988, 1992, 1996, 2000, 2004 elections

1988-2004 Election Calculator Model

The Submerging Democratic Majority
The Democrats actually won all FIVE elections by an average 8.9 MILLION vote margin. That’s the True Emerging Democratic Majority. Don't believe it? Run the numbers yourself.

This analysis is based on the 1988-2004 Election Calculator model. The model first estimates the number of returning voters by adjusting prior election recorded vote totals for uncounted votes and mortality. An estimated turnout percentage is applied to this value. As preliminary NEP vote shares were not available for 1988-2000, Final National Exit Poll shares (which were matched to the recorded vote) were assumed for the base case. In 2004, however, preliminary 12:22am "pristine" vote shares were available, so these were used instead.

The model used Census-reported total votes cast as the base case assumption. The pool of potential returning voters was assumed to include all who cast votes, rather than just those whose votes were recorded. Uncounted vote rates based on the Census are much higher than the assumed 3.0% rate in prior models. Another assumption change is the mortality rate. Annual voter mortality, estimated as 1.22-1.30%, is more accurate than prior models which assumed the total US 0.87% mortality rate.

The new base case assumptions had the effect of increasing Democratic vote shares compared to prior models. For example, the Election Calculator indicates that Kerry won by 53.5- 45.5%, a 10 million vote margin. The prior True Vote Model had Kerry winning by 52.6-46.4%.

How They Stole Ohio
The GOP 4-step Recipe to 'Blackwell' the USA in 2008
Abracadabra: Three Million Votes Vanish — by Greg Palast June 2, 2006

...
In another life, I taught statistics. And these statistics stank: the raw data tells us that if you are a Black voter, the chance of you losing your vote to technical errors in voting machinery is 900% higher than if you were a white voter.

Any guesses as to whom those African-Americans chose for president on those junked ballots? Check Ohio's racial demographics, do the numbers, and there it is: Kerry won Ohio. And that, too, is a fact. A fact that could not get reported in the USA.

But the shoplifting of those votes in Ohio was just the tip of the theft-berg. November 2, 2004 was a national ballot-box bonfire. In total, over three million votes (3,600,380 to be exact) were cast -- marked, punched, pulled -- YET NEVER COUNTED. I'm not talking about the Ukraine or Uganda. I'm talking about the United States of America "with liberty and justice for all."

Well, not "all." The nine-to-one Black-to-White ballot spoilage rate is a national statistic -- not just an Ohio trick. Last year, I flew to New Mexico to investigate the 33,981 cast but not counted ballots of that state in the 2004 race. George Bush "won" New Mexico by 5,988 votes. Or did he? I calculated that, of all the ballots rejected and "spoiled," 89% were cast by voters of color. Who won New Mexico? Kerry won -- or he would have, if they had counted the ballots.

But they didn't count them. And that was deliberate. It's in the plan. It's the program. And the program for 2008 is simple. Two million ballots were cast but not counted in the 2000 race. (Over half, 54%, were cast by African-Americans.) In 2004, the GOP kicked it up to THREE million. Get ready, these guys aim high: "four in '06" and "five in '08" looks to be their game plan.

How will they pile up five million un-voters in 2008? Let's start with the three million "disappeared" of 2004:
...

DLC criticism

The DLC has become unpopular within many progressive political circles.

Some critics claim the strategy of triangulation between the political left and right to gain broad appeal is fundamentally flawed. Opponents believe that moderation does not inspire passion in voters and lacks the persistent principles and moral clarity which are critical to building a popular political movement. In the long run, so opponents say, a strategy of triangulation results in concession after concession to the opposition, while alienating traditionally-allied voters. For example, critics point out that liberal Democrat Michael Dukakis won a larger share of the vote in his [1988] presidential campaign (46%) than Bill Clinton in his first campaign (42%), despite Clinton's more centrist positions.

Others contend that the DLC's distaste for what they refer to as "economic class warfare" has allowed the language of populism to be monopolized by the right-wing. Many argue that the Democrats' abandonment of populism to the right-wing, shifting the form of that populism from the economic realm to the "culture wars", has been critical for Republican dominance of Middle America. (See, for instance, Thomas Frank's What's the Matter with Kansas.)

Still other critics believe the DLC has essentially become an influential corporate and right-wing implant in the Democratic party. Marshall Wittmann, a former senior fellow at the DLC and the former legislative director for the Christian Coalition, and Will Marshall, a vocal supporter of the war in Iraq, are among those associated with the DLC who have been accused of having right-wing credentials.

Finally, detractors of the DLC note that the DLC has received funding from the right-wing Bradley Foundation as well as from oil companies, military contractors, and various Fortune 500 companies.

PBS (Finally) Exposes Criminal GOP Conspiracy to Steal the 2004 Election via Illegal 'Vote Caging' Scam
3-Year Overdue NOW Report Links Scheme to Top Republican Operatives and White House
Former US Attorney David Iglesias Believes Withheld WH Emails May Show Criminal Involvement in '04 Election Theft... —Guest Blogged by Alan Breslauer July 28, 2007

Ohio 2004 Presidential Election Ballots Illegally Destroyed, Missing in At Least 56 of 88 Counties...Is Ken Blackwell's Rape of American Democracy - as Enabled by the Corporate Mainstream Media - Now a Full Fait Accompli? — BLOGGED BY Brad Friedman ON 8/1/2007 1:34PM PT

...
Two-thirds of Ohio counties have destroyed or lost their 2004 presidential ballots and related election records, according to letters from county election officials to the Ohio Secretary of State, Jennifer Brunner.

The lost records violate Ohio law, which states federal election records must be kept for 22 months after Election Day, and a U.S. District Court order issued last September that the 2004 ballots be preserved while the court hears a civil rights lawsuit alleging voter suppression of African-American voters in Columbus.

The destruction of the election records also frustrates efforts by the media and historians to determine the accuracy of Ohio's 2004 vote count, because in county after county the key evidence needed to understand vote count anomalies apparently no longer exists.

"The extent of the destruction of records is consistent with the covering up of the fraud that we believe occurred in the presidential election," said Cliff Arnebeck, a Columbus attorney representing the King Lincoln Bronzeville Neighborhood Association, which filed voter suppression suit. "We're in the process of addressing where to go from here with the Ohio Attorney General's office." ...

PAPER BALLOTS FOR CALIFORNIA! - SECRETARY OF STATE ANNOUNCES DE-CERTIFICATION/RE-CERTIFICATION PLANS FOR E-VOTING SYSTEMS
Debra Bowen Announces DRE (Touch-Screen) Machines to be Used Only One Per Polling Place for Disabled Voters with 100% Manual Count of Paper Trails
Dramatic Late Night Press Conference Held at 11:45pm in Sacramento... —BLOGGED BY Brad Friedman ON 8/4/2007 12:13AM

TIMES SELECT CONTENT FREED Source: New York Post
By HOLLY M. SANDERS

August 7, 2007 -- The New York Times is poised to stop charging readers for online access to its Op-Ed columnists and other content, The Post has learned.

After much internal debate, Times executives - including publisher Arthur Sulzberger Jr. - made the decision to end the subscription-only TimesSelect service but have yet to make an official announcement, according to a source briefed on the matter.

The timing of when TimesSelect will shut down hinges on resolving software issues associated with making the switch to a free service, the source said. ...

America's Assessment of the veneer

[OwnedByFerrets]

4. I dont know ONE. nt

[FourScore]

129. How about all of Fox News and the Republican pundits?

Since they are the only ones really talking about her.

[Faux pas]

147. I couldn't get over how they (msm, cnn) continued to ram her

down our collective throats as if she was the only person in the debate. Not that I liked her to begin with, shit like that makes me like her less. Talk about PROPAGANDA! I hate it.

[OwnedByFerrets]

165. Propaganda in ANY form sucks...nt

[Faux pas]

171. True dat. n/t

[Diane R]

5. I don't know anyone personally. But I know all the corporate talking heads love her.

[laugle]

6. 48% of the country it seems and growing........nt

[ElizabethDC]

7. I do and I know tons of others who do

my mom and several of her friends support Hillary, and many of my friends at my school support her as well. These are people who fit into a number of different demographics - they come from different generations, different backgrounds, different parts of the country, etc.

[emilyg]

37. I do.

My family and friends do.

[juajen]

8. I really, really do.

N/T

edited to add: I have five grown children with hubbies and children, one of whom is turning eighteen in time to vote. They all support Hillary. My youngest daughter (a graduate student who waits tables for spare money) says that all but a few of their thirty-five strong staff, supports her also. Honestly, people, all over this country, the word is Hillary. BTW, my children live in NC, WA. FL and LA. My own siblings live in SC, TX,CA, AL and GA. Some of them and a lot of their children are pulling for Hillary. I'm not sure what world Hillary naysayers are living in, but it doesn't resemble mine. She has huge support.

[loudsue]

126. That scares me to death.

Another corporatist to promote corporations over people is all this country needs right now. I hate to believe anyone who has really studied her could ever vote for her for president.

:kick:

[fooj]

9. I live in a very liberal area of California...

I don't know anyone who has committed to Hillary.

They did the very same thing with Arnold. He was polling in the high twenties and all of a sudden he shot up close to fifty percent. Sure. Right.

I'm beginning to think the pundits get paid commission to shill for certain candidates. It's ridiculous. Actually, I find it rather insulting. Geesh...

[barb162]

30. I haven't committed to anyone either.

I've never understood the Arnold win(S). Never. Whatever Arnold was polling, something has to explain why the people voted for that jerk. Same thing with Reagan, Bush....

[ronnykmarshall]

70. I'm in a very liberal area of California too

and I know lots of people that support her.

As do my friends in the Bay Area.

[fooj]

112. Wonderful. Guess we run in different circles.

[sandnsea]

10. I know real live people

who support her. Old men, old time Dems, like I've said before.

[ronnykmarshall]

71. Oh goody the "old" tag comes out again.

Is 46 "old" in your book?

[sandnsea]

82. They're in their 70's

That's who I personally know who support her. Should I lie?

I promise, the first time I hear someone under 40 support her, I will PM you personally. Deal?

[ronnykmarshall]

87. Don't bother.

[sandnsea]

88. Old people vote

Especially in primaries and caucuses. They matter. I don't know why it bothers you. My biggest concern with the Obama campaign is that it looks to be youth driven so far. That won't win anything. I'm a realist, and I don't lie. The only people I know who support Hillary, personally, are men, old time Dems. Where I live, that's good for Hillary because they do the organizing and gotv. I don't know why you see it as a bad thing.

[ronnykmarshall]

90. My problem is this

Time and time again (not you ..) there have been postings by a several Obama supporters that Hillary's supporters are all "old", "uneducated" and gasp! "unhip". I'm sick of this bullshit.

[JDPriestly]

92. Obama is energizing young people including my children.

I like Edwards. The people who support Clinton are the people who get their information from TV news and newspapers -- the MSM -- which favors Clinton. They aren't the activists. They aren't attending the meet-ups unless Hillary is going to speak herself. Hillary gets the media attention. That is why they support her. They haven't really seen Edwards or Kucinich presented by anyone who likes Edwards or Kucinich. They want a Democrat to win and they have been lead to believe that Hillary is ahead in the polls and most likely to win. They haven't looked at her negative poll numbers -- which are the most important numbers. Those negative poll numbers indicate that Hillary is not a winner. When the Hillary supporters realize that Edwards is the candidate most likely to win in 2008, they will support him.

[ronnykmarshall]

94. Ok that's nice ..

but that has nothing to do with my post.

[JDPriestly]

105. It has to do with why Obama supporters think Hillary supporters are old.

That is because they are young. When I was 23, I thought being 45 was ancient. I thought anyone over 30 was "old." That is why Obama supporters think Hillary supporters are old. It is a matter of perception. Now that I'm over 60 -- in my mid-60s, I think anyone under 45 is very young. Just a matter of perspective. Except when you are young you don't have the perspective to understand that "old" is a matter of perspective, of how old you are yourself.

My over-generalized take is that Obama supporters are young, Hillary supporters get their information from MSM sources and Edwards supporters are independent, mature thinkers -- drawn from various age groups.

[sandnsea]

109. I'm 50

:shrug:

The people *I* know who support Hillary are in their 70's. Now that's what *I* know.

I will add that the Edwards supporters I know are racist bigots, if you want to go ahead and generalize that way.

[JDPriestly]

115. The people in their 70s get their news from TV and newspapers.

That is what I am saying. Some Edwards supporters are racist bigots. Edwards is not, and I'll bet the majority, the broad majority of his supporters are not either. The bigots crossed over to the Republican Party long ago. Who do you think comprise that 24% that still support Bush? That's them. Obama is a wonderful guy. I like him. I just don't think he has the national and international experience to handle the presidential campaign yet. He is getting good experience.

[laugle]

128. You just insulted a lot of people here at

DU. I would have expected more from a long-term member. You are sooooo wrong about where we get our info from. That really is a bad strategy for your candidate.

[JDPriestly]

137. Generalizing is always a dangerous thing.

What I mean is that Hillary is pulling such high poll numbers because, based on the familiarity of her name due to news coverage of her and of Bill in the MSM, she has a lot of name recognition among voters who are not going to seek out information about someone like Edwards or Dodd. Obama also gets name recognition because he is so different from other candidates.

Edwards does not have that advantage. The people who support Edwards have researched his stances, his presentation, his personal history and are backing him based on their research not just based on name recognition. That does not mean that none of Hillary's backers get their information from sources other than the MSM.

[sandnsea]

103. Well the polls are the polls

And they have shown that Hillary has large support from uneducated women in the service industry. That's a HUGE group of Dem voters, very important. I'm sure some of them are old too. When you're trying to figure out what is likely to happen at the ballot box, you have to figure out who is going to be there. I think that's all most of those comments refer to.

[napi21]

11. I do! I watched all the debates, and every stump speech that is

on TV. I watched the positions on the issues but I also watched the candidate's responses, not only to questions in the debates but to their opposition from both parties. I've decided that what matters most is a candidates ability to win over their opposition. All of the Dem candidates would be MUCH better than Shrub ever could hope to be, but his opponents were just not good at countering him and his supporter.

Hillary has been there and back. She's not like Kerry when he believed the lies being spewed about him were just so wrong no one would believe them. Obama is a good candidate, but he just doesn't have the experience that is only gotten via bruises to win the arguments.

I've always liked Edwards, but he's so soft spoken, his message is not getting though. My #1 preverence is Biden. I like his straight forward approach and he sure is the most knowledgeble candidate on foreign policy. I don't know why he hasn't caught on in the mainstream, but he hasn't.

[Middle finga]

12. nobody in my circle supports her

Pat Buchanan seems to like her I've been noticing after every debate he's been praising her. I still haven't figured out those TV taking heads, I don't know if their building Hillary up so they can tear her down later or they realize the Dems will win in 08 and Hillary will be the candidate that will most likely maintain the status quo.

[Alamom]

21. Maybe you need to get out more, she has New York wrapped up with documented support and endorsements

nm

[jobycom]

13. Every election I hear this question about the poll leader.

One of my most vivid memories of the 92 election was some guy calling the radio station here in Austin and telling the DJ that the polls were all wrong, that no one he knew was supporting Clinton, and that Bush was going to win in a landslide. Candidates trailing in the polls always denounce the polls, always explain why they can't be accurate. There was a post earlier today from another site--KOS, I think--that said Edwards was going to win because Hillary and Obama were going to feud until no one liked either of them. Faulty logic--feuds not only put a candidate's name out there, but they also force people to take sides, and often that side-taking makes people forget about other candidates.

People tend to know people in their own circles, their own lifestyles. It lowers the percentage of people you talk to. Most of the Dems I know outside of DU are voting for Hillary. I know a couple of Obama supporters, and probably the rest like Edwards. This is in the suburbs, with all that implies.

Having said all that, it's not a done deal, nothing is inevitable, Hillary's support so far doesn't seem firm--or at least not settled in yet. It's wide open. But the polls are taking a cross-section of the voting public, including segments outside our own. They are reasonably accurate. I'm sure there is variance, and I'm sure each poll has its flaws. But every poll shows Clinton with a commanding lead, and a growing lead. The lead is real. For right now.

But there's still a lot of time. Dean fell awfully fast last cycle. Anything could happen, from voters changing their preference for no real reason, to a new scandal, to someone doing something completely stupid, to just plain old great politicing from someone else. If you're passionate about a different candidate, stick to that passion, work on it, promote that candidate. Maybe you'll be part of what creates the turn around.

[Bravo Zulu]

77. I read somewhere that the front runner

this far out, has never been elected!

[jobycom]

107. You mean, since Bush? He was the front-runner this far out in 99. nt

[JDPriestly]

138. Yeah, but he was a sheepie Republican as were those who voted for him.

Democrats are just ornary enough to go out of their way to vote for someone who is not the front runner. We are just kind of cantankerous like that.

[shimmergal]

123. Will the MSM LET Hillary fall...

in the race for the nomination? Half the time I agree that anything can happen. The other half--well, we've seen that with selective coverage and the push of pundit opinions, the MSM made &%*#@ Bush's stupidities look plausible and measured, and most of the public lapped it up. With Hillary, who's_much_ smarter and smoother, it's hard to believe that any goof-up she'd make would get much publicity, or wide coverage, unless/until they decide to dump her.

Yes, Dean fell fast, but his support built from the ground-up, not from the opinion-makers down. I hope I'm wrong, that every candidate has at least an outside chance, but, barring real acts of God involving health, etc., it's hard to imagine Hillary making any error that would turn "voter preference" around.

[illinoisprogressive]

14. money and influence. It was so obvious with the media tonight.

I know no one who likes her

[durrrty libby]

19. You would send them a horse's head if they dared.

[antigop]

15. Um, people who don't care that she doesn't have a real healthcare plan??? n/t

[Ethelk2044]

16. It's all media hype for Hillary.

Media outlets are trying to "psychologically" convince americans that Hillary is the Prez choice. For the uninformed who don't follow politics, don't watch news programming, don't read newspapers or even read a news magazine, it's perfect from the media's standpoint to engulf americans with their media pundits and their rhetoric. Just like a minister at a church, Believe in me and what I say. Pass the plate! :crazy:

[Alamom]

27. You may be interested in the OP tonight, titled, "Obama Is God".

Just saying since you were speaking of ministers ad passing the plate.

[Tellurian]

62. So, build him a Church already!

and worship him there... He's a better minister than presidential timber. He's long on dreams, short on facts. Inspiration and motivation is his forte. How do we get there? You're on your own, figure it out yourself. No thanks! Leadership is what the country needs, not empty, gratuitous, platitudes pointing out what is wrong with us, handing the country a DIY book isn't what I want in a president.

NEXT!

[AndyTiedye]

17. A Lot of Repiglickins Want Her to Win the Democratic Primary

because they know she would mobilize ALL the Repiggies to get out and vote against her.

[JPettus]

57. Naw

Just their conservative base.

Though, if we keep turning up Values Republicans who are sexual predators and corrupt politicians, that support will likely fade down the stretch too.

[zulchzulu]

18. I know a GOP operative with connections to the RNC that wants her...bad...

There are lots of Republicans that would support the idea that she's the Democratic nominee to run against. It's verifiable. Rupert Murdoch has raised money for her. What other clues do people need?

[JPettus]

64. So What?

They thought they could completely steal the 2006 midterms in spite of their overwhelmingly bad numbers too. They couldn't do it.

No doubt the Democratic Congress needs to make it harder to steal the 2008 election, and I would like to see that made a priority between now and then.

But the belief that Hillary shouldn't get the nomination because the GOP thinks their best chance is against her is nonsense.

The majority of people who vote in Presidential elections, IMO, vote AGAINST a person or issue, not for one. It's the votes against someone that gets passionate people out the door in bad weather to cast their votes.

Just like the Johnson Administration who put Nixon in office in 1968, George Bush and his sycophantic Republican cronies are creating just the kind of atmosphere that will drive people out in droves like in the 2006 midterms to throw the bums out, to vote against the Republicans and their illegal war, against the Bushies and it's illegal surveillance and using the Constitution as toilet paper. Against their Justice Department that is set up to steal elections. Against the Republican congresspeople who are sexual predators.

Those things will get people out to vote against the Bushies and their Repugnican ilk, and will cause a number of "values voters" to stay home.

I like to also point out that when the Feds caught a bagman for Al-Qaida in Philadelphia, he was giving money to the Republican Party. How about that? The terrorists PREFER the Republican Party!

No real surprise there. The GOP has been in charge during the greatest security failure in the history of the US. They would much rather have those kinds of people in charge than someone who might fix the issues.

[JPettus]

20. Where to begin?

I know that there are many who think the extreme left of the Democratic Party speaks for the Party, but there are many, many moderate Dems (by far the majority of the party) and most of the moderates I speak to support Hillary. The polls I see also indicate she has tons of support among minority voters.

And I have to say that right now, I lean more toward Hillary than Obama. And if Wes Clark would get into the race, I would support him, but I don't see that happening or that he would have much of a chance of winning the primary.

[laugle]

22. Welcome to DU!

Get on board the "Hillary" train....straight to the White House, of course we must decontaminate it first!

[zulchzulu]

23. The "extreme" left? How about the "kooky" left or the "wackatoodle" left...

There are PLENTY of moderate Democrats with enough sense to know that Clinton would be exactly what the Republicans want to run against.

[Clintonista2]

39. Hey Zulchzulu

Thanks for your "clinton let Osama go" post a while ago (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3419554), Its been great ammo in this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3434288&mesg_id=3434288

Your reputation is so worthless, you would help Obama on DU more by not posting anything related to the primaries lol.

[zulchzulu]

68. Well, before I put you on the Ol' Iggy...

You have utterly no credibility with your support of Clinton as the nominee. She's what the Republicans want...and you're drinking the KoolAid.

As for Clinton and Tenent not getting Osama, Richard Clarke pretty much said that there was actionable intelligence and Tenent, who was Clinton's boy, balked.

Whatever... you stick with an adulterer and his wife he cheated on who gave us NAFTA, DOMA, zero healthcare reform after surrendering in 1994, the Telecommunications Act, helping bring in Newt and the Boys who brought us King George, China free trade and other greatest hits that screwed the Middle Class. I saw that movie already and no matter how many speeches where Bill bit his lip and felt our pain, he ended up cheating on us too. He and his wife need to take their millions from their outsourcing contacts and retire in Arkansas.

Buh bye...

[JPettus]

40. As I remember

The Republicans wanted to run against a Clinton in 1992 as well.

[Norrin Radd]

59. Don't forget the extreme centrists and the extreme moderates.

;-)

[JPettus]

65. I'm talking extremes

By their very definition, "liberal" and "conservative" are at the opposite extremes with mainstream in the middle. Sadly, the extremists at both ends tend to think that they ARE the mainstream. Nothing could be further from the truth. An extremist is an extremist, whether "liberal," "conservative," "progressive," however you want to call them. By definition, a "moderate" or "centrist" is middle of the road.

[Norrin Radd]

160. In this thread, "extremist" is being used as an abusive epithet, added on,

much like "radical" (even though it originally meant "going to the root"); such as "extremist liberal," as opposed to just plain "liberal." And they are not being seen as simply three options: conservative, moderate, liberal. If they were, they'd correspond entirely to these three: Democratic Party, Moderate (not affiliated with a party), and Republic Party. But they aren't; inn this thread they are being categorized on this spectrum: extremist liberal, liberal, moderate liberal, moderate, moderate conservative, conservative, extremist conservative.

By your reasoning, to be on an end is to be an extremist, so the option of "moderate liberal" should be considered "extremist" within the liberal portion of this spectrum.

Personally, I just think the term "extremist" is being utilized to disparage those whom someone considers "more liberal" than oneself, based on arbitrary, unspoken conditions or qualifications.

[JPettus]

167. Well, but that oversimplifies things, doesn't it?

Where someone else is on the scale is based upon the perspective you have from your own position.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Liberal Moderate Conservative

My little brother sees himself as mainstream (he's a social conservative, what I consider radical religious. He thinks he is in that middle right and perhaps in the group of people he runs in, he may not be as conservative as some of his buddies. From where I am (and I consider myself middle-left) he's very conservative.

And I find that most people are in different positions on the line on different issues. On social issues I tend to be further left than on fiscal issues, and see a lot of other people the same way.

Well, I'm thick skinned. I've debated fundamentalists and conservatives on Usenet for ten years. I am used to the childish name calling. ;-)

[SteelPenguin]

83. we should pick the candidate we want

not the candidate we think could win, or based on what the republicans want or don't want.

That's been a big democratic party problem. The best defense is a strong offense, and the Democrats need to wake up to this reality. Not supporting Hilary because of notions of what the Republicans 'want' is defensive. We need to pick the canddiate that WE want. We do that, we'll most likely pick an outspoken candidate who isn't going to roll over and play dead like some of our canddiates have in the past.

If you don't like Clinton's views or policy ideas, or political stance, find a different candidate to support in the primaries, but if you pick your candidate based on what the other party thinks/does/says then you're just asking to lose imho.

[JDPriestly]

97. Hillary is hedging on Iraq. She says she has a withdrawal plan,

but she leaves lots of room to keep troops in Iraq forever. She is not being frank about her thoughts on Iraq. I heard that in the debate last night. She is not that far removed from Bush on her Iraq stance. Before last night's debate, I felt somewhat positive toward Hillary, but last night I realized that her statements on Iraq are deliberately phrased so as to give her lots of room to switch once she is nominated or elected -- at the advantageous moment. I don't think she is being straightforward about her stance on Iraq. She is saying things now to get the nomination and is prepared to change her stance later.

[SteelPenguin]

110. I see it slightly differently

Things can change. Drastically. She's aware of this fact, and doesn't want to be pigeonholed into blanket statements one way or the other, when complex situations demand complex answers.

Whether we like it or not, Iraq is an extremely complex situation, where even if you want the troops out of there, it's more difficult than just snapping your fingers. I like her responses. To me they make her seem grounded in reality. When people, on either side, think the situation is black and white it makes me irritated. Whether it's the proponents of the war ignoring the stark reality on the ground in Iraq, or the lies that brought us to this point, or the opponents of the war ignorning the logistical nightmare of a fast withdrawl, or the consequences of it's reality both in Iraq and around the world.

A father of a friend of mine (he's a hard core conservative, and he knows I'm pretty solidly to his left) asked me not too long ago over fried pickles (mmmm) what I would do if I were President. It's a tough question. Hilary treats it with what I read as respect and realism, rather than dogmatic decisions one way or the other. I can see how that would be seen as not being straightforward, but I personally think that the situation in Iraq is anything but.

[JDPriestly]

113. Hillary wants to maintain a "reduced residual force" in Iraq.

That is completely unrealistic. As I just stated in response to a discussion on this, that's like saying the British could have kept a "reduced residual force" in revolutionary America. The Iraqis are not going to want us there once they establish their own country or countries. We will have to add force and add force and end up where we are now.

Hillary is not just keeping her options open, not staying flexible on this. Here is an excerpt from the policy statement on her website:

Hillary opposes permanent bases in Iraq. She believes we may need a vastly reduced residual force to train Iraqi troops, provide logistical support, and conduct counterterrorism operations. But that is not a permanent force, and she has been clear that she does not plan a permanent occupation.

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/iraq/

Her plan will result in our staying in Iraq for a long time until we finally leave with our tails tucked under us. She is making the same promise Nixon made and has the same approach Nixon had to Viet Nam. He was elected in 1968 on the promise that he had a plan to get us out of Viet Nam. He kept us in until, I believe 1975, expanding the war constantly with the hope of creating a situation in which we could leave with "honor." Hillary is repeating that terrible mistake. No, I do not like Hillary's stance on the war, not one bit. It is duplicitous and misleading.

[JPettus]

151. Sadly, Nixon did little to get us out of the war

Until 1972 when his campaign quote from 1968 "those who can't end the war in four years don't deserve a second chance" was coming back to bite him in the a$$.

I would love to leave Iraq entirely. I am half afraid though that we may have to keep some semblance of a force there longer than through the next year. Sadly, our current Deserter-in-Chief has lit the fuse on the powder keg.

None of the entities in Iraq want our version of Jeffersonian democracy. The Shiites are the majority and want to rule and pay back the Sunni's for the abuses of the Saddam regime. The Sunni's want to be back in control like they were in Saddam's day and both sides are tending toward genocide of the other.

The Saudi's, who are mostly Sunni, have told Smirk that if we pull out and the Shiites start a Sunni genocide that they will intervene. If the Saudi's intervene in the bloodletting, the mostly Shia Iran is likely to come in as well.

And if that possibility occurs, all bets are off in the Middle East, all because Bush and his neocon buddies thought they could spread freedom at the point of a gun.

Then it would quickly become a UN issue and we know from past experience that the UN isn't likely to do much if the US isn't willing to put up the lion's share of the troops and, usually, money. That would put us right back where we are, trying to keep the warring sides apart.

At least, that's my concern from looking at the situation.

[laugle]

169. In fairness to the next dem president, I don't think

a complete plan of action on Iraq can be drawn-up, until the real truth is known about what the fuck is going on there.

We know that Bushco is a liar, and presents only what he deems congress should know. He has built his whole presidency on secrecy and lies. I am from the Vietnam generation, and know that leaving Iraq is not going to be so simple as it was then.

I do know this though, Hillary will stop this senseless war, she has no intention of being defined by it.

I also believe our problems with Iran, can be solved through diplomatic channels, with Bill at the helm. The Iranian people do not wish to be bombed by us. After what will have been 8 years of ZERO diplomacy, they will be anxious to talk.

Hillary has said she will end the war, and I believe her, there is no other choice!!

[barb162]

28. Welcome to DU

The extreme left is probably very small. They're noisy though. Middle of the road Dems are the huge part of the Democratic Party and the party needs to appeal to them along with independents and centrists. The candidates will shift toward the center as the race goes on and the extreme left will scream. Let them. It's important that the Democratic Party wins the next election.

[JPettus]

42. Not unusual

The extreme right-wingers in the Repug Party are a very vocal minority as well, but between the Smirk's policies and appointments, the moderates feel they are being pushed out. IMO, you will see a number of them likely vote Democratic in 2008 if they don't see a turn-around in the party in general and Iraq in particular.

[bellasgrams]

33. All the Hillary bashing on here is pushing me to Hillary

I do like Richardson and would love to see Clark run. I've cooled on Edwards and Obama.

[laugle]

45. Welcome aboard the "Hillary" train, next stop the WH! nt

[JDPriestly]

139. Why have you cooled on Edwards?

[EFerrari]

35. Can you provide a reference for that "tons" of support among

people of color?

[JPettus]

41. Here are two that are fairly recent

I also read another article recently but can't find it now that indicates that Clinton holds a substantial lead over Obama among African-American voters (think it was right after the NAACP forum) and the interviewee in the article was commenting on how popular Bill (and by proxy, Hillary) is among African-Americans.

http://www.usaelectionpolls.com/2008/articles/barack-obama-not-taking-off-versus-hillary-clinton.html
Although South Carolina's African American Democratic primary voters hover around 50% of the total number of voters, Hillary Clinton does better with that demographic than with Caucasian voters.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/07/23/south.carolina.black.vote/index.html
Clyburn says African-Americans could comprise more than 50 percent of voters in January's primary. A recent CNN/Opinion Research poll of South Carolina Democratic voters showed Clinton with a 14-point lead over Obama, with Edwards in third place. *Among African-Americans, Clinton led Obama by 16 points and was considered to have better experience and a better chance of beating the Republican presidential nominee.*

"Clinton, the name is magical in a lot of black communities," Clyburn said. "I mean people really feel that Bill Clinton by and large did right by black voters and he gave them a measure of respectability in the political process and some of those residual emotions are still there."

[EFerrari]

43. Both reference SC only and in a limited way.

:shrug:

[JPettus]

53. That's because I was looking for the most recent info

And the most recent info is South Carolina. The polls showing Hillary's support versus Obama's support go back to at least January and while Obama closed the numbers a little in February, they have stayed fairly consistent, with Hillary leading Obama anywhere from 9% to 16% over the last six months.

[wyldwolf]

56. no matter what info you give, these people will parse and spin it

[JPettus]

66. Here's what I tend to see

The extremists come out for primaries and get their person the nomination.

That means in Republican primaries, the most conservative candidate usually gets the nomination, and in Democratic primaries, the most liberal candidate usually gets the nomination. That's normal as the extremists are more politically passionate about their causes, their candidates, their issues.

Then, in the general election, candidates have to try to become more "mainstream" in order to appeal to the general population.

I don't worry about the spinners. The facts will continue to speak for themselves, and the facts so far show that Obama still has a way to go in order to catch and overtake Clinton, including the minority vote.

So sad, too bad. When he gets there, they can tell me I was wrong.

[EFerrari]

79. I asked two factual questions and that makes me an "extremist"

and a "spinner"?

And, where did you get the idea that the most liberal Democrat gets the nomination? Oh, never mind.

lol

[sniffa]

102. quiet you

Let the grown ups handLe things here. hiLLary is the nom and you can't stop it.

[EFerrari]

106. I suck at the obvious.

LoL

[JPettus]

149. Didn't say that about you

I was responding to the post above from the person who said that there will be those who parse and spin no matter what I say.

And I made a generalization regarding what *I* tend to see. It's the people who are most passionate about their politics who turn out for primaries, generally. Those people tend to be on the more extreme part of the scale, liberals for the Dems and conservatives for the GOP. Because of that, you often see the politicians who test well with those groups getting the nomination and then during the general election, those politicians have to make themselves palatable for the more moderate voters who will be the bulk of the voters turning out on election day.

[EFerrari]

76. I see. I'd still like to see something broader because it's

an interesting situation. Maybe I can find something today.

[JPettus]

153. When I google it

I mostly see stuff from the January/Feb 2007 time frame. Because polls change in a relatively short time, the only stuff I could see in the most recent time frame (July) was South Carolina related.

It's going to remain in a state of flux, but the point is still, I think, valid. Clinton pulls strongly from minority voters, as does Obama, both still have large numbers of primarily white voters as well, and so far, Clinton is pulling away from Obama in overall poll numbers.

Obama is popular with black voters of both sexes, while Clinton tends to pull strongly from women.

I'm curious to see how Obama's Pakistan remarks will play with his base and if that causes him to gain or lose ground.

[emilyg]

38. welcome to DU

[JPettus]

44. Thank You!

[JDPriestly]

141. JPettus Welcome to you. Glad to see you are from IU's hometown

[JPettus]

157. Thank you!

Right now I'm in Afghanistan but I am looking forward to coming home for a visit in a few weeks to spend time at home.

Miss the wife. Miss the dogs. Miss home.

[JDPriestly]

161. We are happy to have you. We love the debate.

I'm always learning something new on this forum.

[JPettus]

168. Me Too!

And thanks for the welcome!

[barb162]

24. I'll support her

though I have no personal favorites right now. So many things can happen between now and voting time.

[Alamom]

25. Here's a few people.......most states are represented.

Check it out, you might see someone you know or know of as most states are represented.


Documented support and endorsements July 27, 2007 thru today, 8/07/07
6 threads from HRC Forum below going back to Jan. 07



8/7/07

SC: Hillary Clinton Receives 11 Upstate Endorsements
Upstate Leaders Praise Clinton's Leadership on Health Care

(COLUMBIA) - Eleven Upstate women today announced their endorsement of Hillary Clinton as the only candidate for President ready to lead from her first day in office.

"Hillary Clinton is the person I trust most to lead our country," Greenville Vice Mayor Pro-tempore and City Council At-Large Representative Diane Smock said. "Just look at what Hillary Clinton has been able to do for children's health care. That's the kind of experience she has and it's the kind of experience that makes her ready to lead from her first day in the Oval Office."

Upstate Women for Hillary announcing their endorsement today of Clinton include:

Stephanie Arnold, Greenville
Pat Borenstein, Greenville
Dr. Carolyn Cody-Fuller, Greenville
Joy Fuller, Greenville
Greenville County Democratic Party Treasurer
Ann Funderburk, Greenville
Katherine Haltiwanger, Pickens
Rebecca Lambert, Greenville
Kathy McCart, Spartanburg
Councilwoman Diane Smock, Greenville
Erika Spinelli, Greenville
Brena Walker, Anderson

8/6/2007
Oregon Rep. Darlene Hooley Endorses Clinton

Hooley will serve as a Co-Chair of Rural Americans for Hillary
The Clinton Campaign today announced the endorsement of Oregon Congresswoman Darlene Hooley and named her a Co-Chair of Rural Americans for Hillary.

"Hillary Clinton is the experienced leader we need to tackle the great challenges facing our nation," Hooley said. "She is the one candidate who can hit the ground running on her first day in the White House."

Hooley was elected to Congress in 1996 and has become a leading advocate for our men and women in uniform, fighting to get them the equipment they need on the battlefield and the healthcare they deserve when they return home. Strongly committed to preserving the quality of life in rural America, Hooley has pushed for measures to level the playing field for American farmers and combat the spread of methamphetamine use.


8/6/2007
FL State Sen. Ted Deutch Endorses Hillary Clinton
The Clinton Campaign today announced the endorsement of Florida State Senator Ted Deutch.

Hillary Clinton knows that we can both defend our country and the rights of our citizens to live lives of dignity with affordable health care for men and women and quality public education for our children. Together with her longstanding and vocal support of the State of Israel, Senator Clinton is the best candidate to hit the ground running on her first day in the White House and tackle those issues that matter so deeply to me and my constituents.

First elected to the Senate in 2006, Deutch authored legislation mandating that Florida divest its pension funds from companies investing in Iran and Sudan, and has helped other state and local governments exercise their economic leverage to pressure rogue nations.




8/3/2007
Los Angeles City Council Members Wendy Greuel, Jan Perry, Jack Weiss Endorse Hillary Clinton
The Hillary Clinton Campaign announced the endorsements of Los Angeles City Council Members Wendy Greuel, Jan Perry and Jack Weiss today. The endorsements illustrate the growing support Senator Clinton has in the City of Los Angeles and California.


8/2/2007
Nevada Higher Education Chancellor James E. Rogers Endorses Clinton for President
Business Owner and Community Advocate Nationally Known for Philanthropy in Higher Education
The Clinton campaign today announced the endorsement of Nevada System of Higher Education Chancellor James E. Rogers, and named him co-chair of the Nevada campaign.

"Hillary Clinton is a smart, tough and tested leader who believes, as I do, that education is the foundation of a strong society," said Rogers. "Fixing our broken education system will help restore our nation to its place of prominence and leadership in the global marketplace. I know that as president, Senator Clinton will work to broaden access to education and empower innovation. Of all the great candidates in the field this year, she is the most prepared to get America back on track. She has my enthusiastic endorsement, and I’m proud to be a part of her leadership team in Nevada."


8/2/2007
Massachusetts State Auditor DeNucci Endorses Clinton

The Clinton Campaign today announced the endorsement of Massachusetts State Auditor Joe DeNucci, demonstrating Hillary Clinton's growing support in the Bay State.

"Americans are ready for change, and Hillary Clinton has the strength and experience to deliver it," DeNucci said. "There's no doubt in my mind that Hillary Clinton is the best candidate to strengthen America's forgotten middle and working classes."


8/2/2007
Wisconsin Rep. Tammy Baldwin Endorses Clinton

Baldwin Will Co-Chair Wisconsin Campaign and Advise on Health Care
The Clinton Campaign today announced the endorsement of Wisconsin Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin and named her a Co-Chair of Hillary's Wisconsin campaign and a member of the campaign's Health Care Policy Task Force. Baldwin will also co-chair the campaign's LGBT steering committee.

"I am proud to endorse Senator Hillary Clinton's candidacy for President of the United States," Baldwin said. "Senator Clinton is supremely prepared and the candidate best able to ensure health care for all, reaffirm our commitment to the Constitution and rule of law, and re-establish our position of leadership in the world. She will be firm in protecting our national security and fair in addressing the aspirations and needs of all Americans. Hillary Clinton has been my friend and ally in the battle for health care for many years and I look forward to working with her to achieve our common goals when she becomes our next President," Baldwin said.



8/2/2007
UNLV President Emerita Carol Harter Endorses Clinton

First Woman & Longest Serving University President to Co-Chair Nevada Campaign
The Clinton campaign today announced the endorsement of Dr. Carol C. Harter, President Emerita of the University of Nevada, Las Vegas (UNLV) and Executive Director of the Black Mountain Institute. Harter was also named co-chair of the Nevada campaign, and a member of the Nevada Women’s Leadership Council.

8/1/2007
NH Speaker of the House Terie Norelli to Co-Chair NH for Hillary Campaign

Speaker of the House Announces Endorsement; Aggressive Schedule to Criss Cross the State for Hillary
Manchester, NH - At coffee shops in Portsmouth and Concord today, New Hampshire Speaker of the House Terie Norelli announced her decision to endorse Hillary Clinton for President, citing Clinton’s experience and her ability to deliver the change Americans want. The Clinton campaign also announced she will serve as a Co-Chair of New Hampshire for Hillary.

"Knowing what is at stake in this election and the caring leader that Hillary Clinton is, I am getting straight to work on her behalf - traveling across the state starting now," said Speaker Norelli. "Hillary has outlined big goals for our country like her plans for universal pre-kindergarten for every child, a comprehensive government reform plan, a real exit strategy for Iraq and reforming our tax code that has benefited the rich on the backs of America’s Middle Class."




7//30/07

Iowa women line up behind Hillary


More than 100 Iowa women, most with credentials in politics, have agreed to be on a team whose mission is to recruit other women to support Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.

Each woman is charged with encouraging friends to become more active in Clinton?s campaign and to drive turnout for Clinton at the January caucuses.

The campaign calls the group the Women?s Leadership Council for Team Hillary.
Through our social networks, community involvement, church groups and family ties we are determined to organize women who have attended the caucuses before and bring new women into the caucus process to support Hillary Clinton, former Iowa Attorney General Bonnie Campbell stated in a news release.

Among those on the team are Ruth Harkin, State Rep. Swati Dandekar, Des Moines School Board member Connie Boesen, Cedar Rapids Mayor Kay Halloran and business leader Susan Knapp.

According to the Clinton campaign, the list is as follows:

Jacky Adams of Red Oaks, Montgomery County; local activist
Marti Anderson of Des Moines, Polk County; social worker and crime victim advocate
Staci Appel of Ackworth, Warren County; state senator
Theresa Backham of Des Moines, Polk County; local activist
Regina Bailey of Iowa City, Johnson County; city councilwoman
Katie Beckett of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; disability rights activist
Rosanne Beyer of Dows, Franklin County; mayor
Barbra Boatwright of Des Moines, Polk County; retired social worker
Connie Boesen of Des Moines, Polk County; school board member
Margaret Borgen of Des Moines, Polk County; former school board member
Bonnie Campbell of Des Moines, Polk County; Iowa Democratic Party chairwoman
Mickey Carlson of Adel, Dallas County; former chair of Dallas County Democrats
Pat Carmody of Ames, Story County; activist
Jean Classon of Des Moines, Polk County; President of Iowa National Organization for Woman
Joyce Connors of Dubuque, Dubuque County; Hills and Dales Board, Riverview Center Inc. Board, Convention Visitors Bureau
Sondy Daggett of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; small business owner
Judith Dailey of Newton, Jasper County; Democratic activist
Swati Dandekar of Marion, Linn County; state representative
Sharon Dearden of Des Moines, Polk County; community activist
Suzy Drish of Fairfield, Jefferson County; Democratic activist and farmer
Pam Duffy of Adel, Dallas County; activist
Bonnie Eggers of Agency, Wapello County; labor activist
Cindy Eisenhauer of Ankeny, Polk County; former chief of staff for Gov. Tom Vilsack
Mary Elgar of Mount Pleasant, Henry County; community activist
Sarah England of Iowa City, Johnson County; professor at University of Iowa
Helen Epperson of Ottumwa, Wapello County; activist
Shelly Escobedo of Fort Dodge, Webster County; activist
Tammy Ferrell of Roland, Story County; educator
Fran Fleck of West Des Moines, Polk County; activist
Valentina Fominykh of Des Moines, Polk County; activist
Cynthia Forbes of Urbandale, Polk County; Women for a Stronger America treasurer
Patricia Foster of Dubuque, Dubuque County; educator
Faye Fraise of Fort Madison, Lee County; activist
Melanie Friedman of Iowa City, Johnson County; activist
Julie Haggerty of Urbandale, Polk County; Polk County Recorder
Kay Halloran of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; mayor
Diane Hamilton of Storm Lake, Buena Vista County; attorney and former chair of Buena Vista County Democrats
Karla Hansen of Holstein, Ida County; healthcare activist
Ruth Harkin of Cumming, Warren County; business leader
Sharon Haselhoff of Iowa City, Johnson County; political activist
Cindy Heland of Burlington, Des Moines County; political activist
Megan Heneke of Spirit Lake, Dickenson County; past president of Iowa College Democrats and University of Iowa Democrats
Carmen Hernandez of Dubuque , Dubuque County; educator
Liz Hoskins of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; community activist
Cheryll Jones of Bloomfield, Davis County; political activist
Susan Judkins of Des Moines, Polk County; business leader
Theresa Kehoe of Des Moines, Polk County; political activist
Susan Knapp of Van Meter, Dallas County; business leader and philanthropist
Kati Kregel of Fort Dodge, Webster County; community activist
Mary Ford Krier of Ollie, Keokuk County; business woman and farm activist
Vicki Lensing of Iowa City, Johnson County; state representative
Alice Lopez of Lowden, Cedar County; Cedar County Task Force on Elderly issues
Amanda Luong of Des Moines, Polk County; local activist
Janet Lyness of Iowa City, Johnson County; county attorney
Cyril Mandelbaum of West Des Moines, Polk County; Des Moines Public Library Board of Directors
Mary Mascher of Iowa City, Johnson County; state representative
Dorothy Mauro of Des Moines, Polk County; activist
Mary McGee of Des Moines, Polk County; attorney
Andy McGuire of Des Moines, Polk County; former candidate for lieutenant governor
Juanita Mehmen of Charles City, Floyd County; chaplain for Veterans of Foreign Wars
Doreen Meier of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; community volunteer
Rocky Menke of Fort Madison, Lee County; labor and political activist
Mary Mincer Hansen of Panora, Guthrie County; former director of the Iowa Department of Public Health
Juanita Moreno of Glenwood, Mills County; activist
Vi Neil of La Porte City, Black Hawk County; activist
Patsy Olejniczak of Fort Dodge, Webster County; political activist
Linda Olson of Marengo, Iowa County; activist
Jean Oxley of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; first woman on Linn County Board of Supervisors
Kim Painter of Iowa City, Johnson County; Johnson County Recorder
Jerica Parker of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; Cedar Rapids activist
Sally Pederson of Des Moines, Polk County; former lieutenant governor
Phyllis Peters of Ames, Story County; political activist
Phyllis Peterson of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; educator
Barbara Pfieffer of Saint Charles, Madison County; activist
Holly Raczowski of Decorah, Winneshiek County; Girl Scout troop leader
Audrey Rahn of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; community volunteer
Mary Riche of Des Moines, Polk County; activist
Doreen Rick of Mason City, Cerro Gordo County; educator
Laura Sands of Des Moines, Polk County; Polk County activist and former school board member
Becky Schmitz of Fairfield, Jefferson County; state senator
Mary Ann Schuldt of Sioux City, Woodbury County; retired educator
Patsy Shors of Des Moines, Polk County; activist
Campbell Spencer of Des Moines, Polk County; former GLBT outreach director for the Democratic National Committee and Gore 2000
Sara Porter Stark of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; community volunteer
Julie Stauch of Des Moines, Polk County; vice president of governmental affairs for Planned Parenthood
Sarah Stephenson of Iowa City, Johnson County; University of Iowa law student
Jean Stowell of Northwood, Worth County; executive director of the Top of Iowa Welcome Center
Sally Stutsman of Riverside, Johnson County; Johnson County supervisor
Carrie Tedore of Dubuque, Dubuque County; political activist
Dr. Julianne Thomas of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; pediatrician and community activist
Rita Vargas of Davenport, Scott County; Scott County Recorder
Christie Vilsack of Mt. Pleasant, Henry County; former First Lady of Iowa
Marcia Wanamaker of Waukee, Dallas County; real estate developer
Phyllis Weeks of Knoxville, Marion County; chairwoman of Knoxville County Democrats
Margi Weiss of Des Moines, Polk County; marketing director for Planned Parenthood of Greater Iowa
Anita Wendt of Sioux City, Woodbury County; retired educator and community activist
Donna Whitead of Sioux City, Woodbury County; activist
Karen Wick of Mediapolis, Des Moines County; Des Moines County Democrats central committee
Cindy Winckler of Davenport, Scott County; state representative
Jane Witt of Cedar Rapids, Linn County; community activist
Linda Yoder of Marengo, Iowa County; county supervisor
Rachel Zimmermann of Iowa City, Johnson County; political activist


Documented support and endorsements Jan. thru July 27, 2007

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x237

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x234

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x222

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x216

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x210

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=334x197

[antigop]

31. obviously people who don't care that she doesn't have a healthcare plan n/t

[Alamom]

32. Of course. nm

:sarcasm:

[JDPriestly]

142. I thought Wendy Greuel, Jan Perry, Jack Weiss were Republicans

Maybe not Jan Perry. Silly me.

[Placebo]

26. Me! Me! Me!

And a lot of people I talk to, even here in Chicago which is supposed to be solid Obama Country. :patriot:

[Alamom]

29. She has support all over. Obama does not have Illinois wrapped up. nm

[EFerrari]

34. Of all my peeps, only my mom because she wants a woman in

in her lifetime. I won't vote for her.

[laugle]

47. Sounds like you have a very smart mom and I'm

sure if you talk with her, she has many others reason's for liking Hillary!

[EFerrari]

75. We talk politics every day and we don't talk about Senator Clinton. n/t

[incapsulated]

36. Look....

You and your circle of friends are not the Democratic Party.

I really don't know why there is such a resistance to this fact on DU other than willful denial. You do not represent the majority even in your own party.

If DU and it's opinions reflected the reality out there, Dean or Clark would have been nominee. That would have been fine with me but I'm not representative of the majority either.

It's not a lie, it is not a conspiracy, people like Hillary. A LOT.

[Hippo_Tron]

46. She is currently the known commodity and lots of people aren't paying attention yet

People know Hillary and they know what she has done in the past. They may know Obama and Edwards' names but little or nothing about them.

[flying rabbit]

80. Bingo!

Most people aren't really paying attention to the game right now.

[calteacherguy]

48. My hunch is her support is tenuous and weak.

Most people aren't following the race yet at all, and she is just the one they are most familiar with at this point.

[Forkboy]

49. Hillary supporters...and I finally met one last week!

[countmyvote4real]

50. not me

unless i have to grudgingly have to.

[LostInAnomie]

51. I've never met a genuine Hillary supporter offline.

I've met people that like the idea of another Clinton in the White House.
I've met people that like the idea of a woman becoming president
But, I've never actually met anyone that supports her that actually knows anything about her policies, or what she's about.

I hope these misguided supporters find out about her before the Repukes get their dream opponent.

[wyldwolf]

55. so, you've set up criteria to determine what a genuine Hillary supporter is?

[LostInAnomie]

81. If the basis for your support of Hillary is gender or last name, you aren't a genuine supporter.

They are supporting her because of criteria that have nothing to do with actual policies, or actual positions on issues. It is about the most shallow and superficial reason to supporting a candidate there could be.

[ronnykmarshall]

84. Thanks for your input ...

I'm so glad you can read our minds.

[LostInAnomie]

89. If it doesn't apply to you then ignore it.

If somehow you've found her policies and positions acceptable, then feel free to vote for her.

If you are shallow enough that you are letting gender and her last name play a role in your decision, then you don't genuinely support her candidacy.

[ronnykmarshall]

91. Lovely!

"Shallow" ..... my how thoughtful of you.

[LostInAnomie]

96. What is not shallow about voting for someone because of gender or last name?

Neither of those aspects of a candidate have any influence over policies, positions, or how competently they will run the country. Seems like pretty shallow reasoning to me.

[ronnykmarshall]

98. Charming!

Now niiiiiccceeeee!

[LostInAnomie]

101. Alright, I see how this works.

I post a response explaining why voting for someone because of superficial reasons is not a good idea. Then, unable to form a cogent response, you post nonsense in a sarcastic tone.

Keep on setting that good example! :thumbsup:

[ronnykmarshall]

119. Why thank you .. I shall do just that.

:loveya:

[Andromeda]

52. I support Hillary 100%.

She's the best candidate we have. I like all the candidates but none are as talented as Hillary. She's not afraid to look people in the eye and disagree with them. She doesn't let booing from rude audiences silence her and certain protesters stop her from making appearances, like King George does.

Hillary has convinced me that she has the cohones to run this country and she has the smartest partner, 1st man Bill Clinton at her side.

They are a Dream Team!

[Popol Vuh]

54. I certainly DON'T

She's a corporate puppet trying to pay lip service, and I guarantee you if elected.

She will not pull the troops out of Iraq

She will not eliminate the Patriot ACT or Military Commissions ACT

She will not do anything about the gutting of American jobs

Just to name a few...

[wyldwolf]

58. here's a video of someone who didn't think Hillary has supporters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3jGrV1oqX0

He probably thought that after being on DU.

[avrdream]

60. Me

and everyone else I know (7 siblings and their spouses, many, many friends, and a few strangers) except my silly brother-in-law who still believes that Dubya may come up with something to save the day in Iraq.

You don't want to hear it but there are very real people who believe that HRC has the wisdom and maturity to be the President of the United States.

[Perry Logan]

61. Everyone I ever met supports Hillary.

Two can play this hyperbole game.

[Clark2008]

63. I don't know either.

But, of course, you'll be told you don't know anybody and that it's all those people you don't know who are supporting her.

Makes no sense to me, either - and I certainly don't hang out with a bunch of ultra-liberal people. Hell, there aren't too many ultra-liberal anything where I live, so I do well to find people who just wake up on the left-hand side of the bed.

[riona]

67. I know 1 moderate Republican who does

[watercolors]

69. Husband and I support her

Its time to let a woman take charge, the men in this country have fucked us pretty bad! I'm an angry woman right now and there are many of us who are tired of empty shirts and no balls!

[Stuckinthebush]

72. Please don't vote for someone because of their gender

or race...or religion...

Vote for a person because they have the skills to lead and the beliefs that align with progressive thought.

[Dawgs]

73. I don't no anyone that supports Hillary, but I did see some old white guy with a Hillary 08 BS.

[ronnykmarshall]

85. Oh goody again!

Once again the "old" tag gets thrown around by the Hillary bashing team.

[last_texas_dem]

74. Well, I have finally found one

She's unlikely to vote in the primary and I'm not even sure if she'll vote in the general, but she is the first Hillary supporter I've found off-line, so that should count for something.

[beastieboy]

78. Um, only half the country and the majority of democrats.....

[lojasmo]

164. Half the country? I call BS.

Show me ONE POLL which puts Clinton's national support among registered voters at over 50%

[SteelPenguin]

86. I do

I initially was liking Obama, but the past couple debates, and speeches that I've seen have turned me off him. He's fresh, vibrant, even exciting, but I don't think I like the meat of what he's saying.

So then I toyed with Edwards, but he just doesn't do it for me. I like what he's saying, better than that of Obama, but he rubs me wrong somewhere inside my brain.

Clinton has been working for me the past few weeks. She's the only one of them up there that I could really see being President. My wife supported her from the get go, but i've definately come around. I don't agree with all her stances, but I think most of them are balanced and reasonable. Like they've actually thought about them, rather than just knee jerk responses. I'd like my next president, and her team, to actually think, reason, and figure out all the angles.

[CTyankee]

93. It doesn't matter if our own little circle won't be voting for her.

I have said this elsewhere: polls when done scientifically and with a large enough sampling have a smaller Margin of Error than small polls. Each one of the responders in this thread take a poll of just a few people and they cannot be called accurate for the entire country. Their MOE is just too large.

This is just mathematics, it is nothing personal. I use as my example, when I was working in a liberal organization in the early 80s no one in my circle of friends was going to vote for Reagan. I was absolutely stunned by his huge victory! But then learned about the validity of well done polls. We should ignore them at our peril.

[kowanda32]

95. My family and relatives

:7

[AuntPatsy]

99. I do, she is not a republican no matter how many wish to believe she is repub lite.

[Enrique]

100. Tammy Baldwin does

[onenote]

104. Here ya go. A list of endorsements

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/news/endorsements/

I'm still keeping my powder dry and have not thrown in with any one candidate yet. And I do know a number of people who have mixed feelings about Hillary (as well as some people who are more enthusiastic about her).

But I find the notion that her reported support is a myth bizarre given the large number of endorseements she has received from elected officials. A lot of these elected officials have a base of support that will follow their lead, so I think its safe to say that the endorsements she is receiving from folks like David Dinkins, Dianne Feinstein, Richard Gephardt, Jay Inslee, Robert Mendendez, MD Gov. O'Malley actually translates into substantial support beyond just those people.

[William769]

108. "I might not be the brightest light on God's Xmas"

No argument from me.

[noonwitch]

111. Me, my sister, our dad, and a good number of my friends

Although I will vote for whoever gets the dem nomination, with few exceptions.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

114. Lesser educated women, according to a poll...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06/11/AR2007061102216.html

Clinton is drawing especially strong support from lower-income, lesser-educated women -- voters her campaign strategists describe as "women with needs." Obama, by contrast, is faring better among highly educated women, who his campaign says are interested in elevating the political discourse.

[William769]

116. Thanks for pointing out it's women that are needy the most is where gets her her support.

So whats up with the Republican-lite argument?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

118. How are the two inconsistent?

[William769]

121. I don't know? Why don't you tell us?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

122. I don't think they are.

[William769]

124. So then it's safe to assume you believe that Republicans are for poor uneducated women?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

125. That would be a bad assumption.

1. I don't always think people vote in their interest. I know this sounds elitist. But it's what I think.

2. People might perceive Hillary as something she is not. My sister, for example, thinks Hillary has proposed a Dennis Kucinich-style health care plan, that she is pro-gay marriage, and the list goes on. The media portray Hillary as a liberal extremist. A lot of people--at least a lot of people I know--assume it's true.

3. Also, some people I know just like Hillary because she's a woman.

[laugle]

170. Liberal-extremist.....I think you have her mixed-up with

Kucinich!! I see her as a more centrist candidate, like her husband!

[ronnykmarshall]

120. Here we go again!

:eyes:

[cd3dem]

133. Summa Cum Laude

are you calling me lesser-educated? I like Hillary and I have a Masters degree... graduated Summa Cum Laude...

and I don't live in a trailer... and I have all my teeth...

[ShortnFiery]

150. Summa Cum Laude - Masters Degree = same here! We do have something in common - but I don't like HRC

Bummer. Guess we can't have it all> :( :shrug:

[AnotherGreenWorld]

166. Summa Cum Laude - Master's Degree = same here + a PhD and a JD

And I detest HRC.

[cd3dem]

134. Summa Cum Laude

are you calling me lesser-educated? I like Hillary and I have a Masters degree... graduated Summa Cum Laude...

and I don't live in a trailor... and I have all my teeth...

[AnotherGreenWorld]

146. What I quoted from the WP only said

"Clinton is drawing especially strong support from lower-income, lesser-educated women."

It didn't suggest everyone who supports Sen. Clinton is "lower-income" and "lesser-educated."

Master's degree. That's cool. In what, and from where, did you get your master's degree?

[cd3dem]

154. glad to see disadvantaged women supporting Hillary

Family Education, University of Minnesota... my education is in family issues, personal finances, psychology and gender studies...

low income women have too long not had a voice... higher income women support Obama more because they relate to him... his kids go to private school... the lower-income black women do not identify with him so much... I like Oprah but her endorcement doesn't get the low-income black support either... many blacks do not like Oprah... they don't feel she represents them...

I like Obama, just don't prefer him... don't feel he is ready for the job, or the battle of the campaign against the reps... he will fall to the smears and trip on himself... they can take the best of them down... not happy about the negative crap either...

Hillary is a Clinton... she has the best people working for her... the two of them are unsinkable...

besides... I would love to see the reps suffer like they have made us suffer....

[MODemocrat]

117. My husband, & I are REALLY supporting Hillary for President

I am not a blogger, we are two regular people who are truly interested in getting her elected. We know she'll do a good job; and she knows how to kick ass, and it doesn't take her all day to do it with her quick responses. What's so unbelievable about that? :bounce: :thumbsup:

[saracat]

127. I know a millionaire who raised $600,00 for her and my BF in DC 's year old Mom.84

My BF is supporting Obama.The millionaire is supporting her for access and my friends mom is supporting herbecause she is a woman. Both are bad reasons to support anyone IMHO. BTW, my BF is not "young" but in her middle years! So much for Obama supporters only being young!

[tiptoe]

130. Bill willing to be a "roving ambassador" (arkansas root: "ambient-ass-adore"?). He supports Hillary.

just kidding

:hide:

[CoffeeCat]

131. At last someone acknowledges the paid bloggers!

I do know that something is wrong with these polls.

I belong to a local Dem group. No one and I mean NO ONE supports Hillary.
There are many Edwards supporters, some Gore supporters and a lot of Obama
supporters. Maybe one or two support Hillary.

I rarely meet anyone who supports Hillary. I see signs for Richardson and
other Dem candidates, as well as bumper stickers for some candidates. I see
none of that for Hillary.

Something is rotten in Denmark.

[tiptoe]

132. Many "polls" now just corporate media-manipulations?...like "news" that is really corporate adverts?

Gallup...in the "Bush Approval" history...always upper ranges, lifting up the 14-day average. Zogby's approach seems credible.

http://users.pop.umn.edu/~ruggles/2004.htm

[TwilightGardener]

135. I don't. Not anymore. But it doesn't matter, because it's all rigged anyway.

[superkia]

136. Next question I want is, who actually takes these polls?

I have yet to meet a person that has done one of these polls I see in the media? I work in a restaurant where I have met many people from different places, poor and rich but have yet to meet someone that has been part of one of these polls or knows someone that has? How many DUer's have been included in these national media polls? Just curious what the % is?

[tiptoe]

140. A: Cats & Dogs! "FBI...said 50 % of info...by DataUSA & transmitted to Bush's campaign was falsified

Pollster Pleads Guilty to Making Up Results

Tracy Costin pleaded guilty Wednesday to one count of conspiracy to commit wire fraud. Costin, 46, faces a maximum of five years in prison and a fine of up to $250,000 when she is sentenced Nov. 30.

As part of her plea agreement, Costin agreed to repay $82,732 to the unidentified clients for 11 jobs between June 2002 and May 2004. DataUSA is now known as Viewpoint USA.

According to a federal indictment, Costin told employees to alter poll data, and managers at the company told employees to "talk to cats and dogs" when instructing them to fabricate the surveys.

FBI Special Agent Jeff Rovelli said 50 percent of information compiled by DataUSA and transmitted to Bush's campaign was falsified, the Connecticut Post reported Thursday.

Assistant U.S. Attorney Edward Chang said on several occasions when the company was running up against a deadline to complete a job, results were falsified. Sometimes, the respondent's gender or political affiliation were changed to meet a quota, other times all survey answers were fabricated.

Pollster guilty of fake data conspiracy

BRIDGEPORT — A polling company owner admitted participating in a conspiracy to falsify data in order to meet deadlines for clients, which included the campaigns of President Bush, U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman, U.S. Rep. Rosa DeLauro and Mayor John M. Fabrizi.

...

FBI Special Agent Jeff Rovelli said 50 percent of information compiled by DataUSA and transmitted to Bush's campaign was falsified.

There was no indication that the Fabrizi campaign surveys were falsified.

Leonard Mastri, Costin's ex-husband, told the FBI the results for a Metro-North survey were fabricated.

Mastri, the former owner of Computer Guys and PM Consulting in Bridgeport, was arrested and convicted for selling computers stolen from Sikorsky Aircraft.
...

So, did the Bush campaign PAY to have poll data falsified?

[superkia]

144. Something new everyday from the machine.

[Enthusiast]

143. I am suspicious

I am suspicious of these polls. I also get the distinct impression that the media is on Hillary's side.

[tiptoe]

145. Well, Hillary's hubby signed Telecommunications Act of 1996 enabling corporatist media control, no?

Might that be reason to suspect the corporatist media "likes" Hillary?

Has Hillary expressed any regrets over the sabotage of the Fourth Estate in our Democracy? Has she announced she would attack or "break up" the corporatist lockdown on "Truth" and "All the news that's fit to print"?

Why do I suspect Edwards/Gore would attempt what's needed for American democracy and that Hillary won't? Why do I trust California SoS Debra Bowen more than Hillary or Biden or Dodd or Feinstein (should she ever run) to do the right thing?

The Last Days of Democracy: TruthDig Interview with Elliot Cohen

Cohen: Well, the cause of the problem isn’t the good journalists who are in the trenches and risking their lives to get out stories. They’re still there. What happens is when the news is edited, what facts that are damaging to government, the censorship kicks in. And the stories just don’t get out there from the mainstream. And, so, it’s not that it is a sense of wimpiness of individuals who are risking their lives. I think there needs to be a realization, however, that is it really worth risking your life when the story is going to be cut, edited, censored, in a way that the news isn’t going to get out. And so it’s not at the lower levels of journalists in the trenches; it’s the higher levels of editorship and ownership where—I mean there’s a lot of reasons for this. First of all, when you look at the media and its interests, its bottom line is its major interests. And how does it attain its bottom line? Well, it does it through military contracts, for instance. Because these companies are not just newsrooms, they are giant conglomerates. Take, for interest, General Electric. General Electric has interests in producing jet engines for military contracts with Lockheed Martin. And the war in Iraq is something that builds up these revenues, and when it comes to advancing the media ownership, how many cross-ownership markets and how far can you advance your national market? Well the FCC is the one that grants those wishes and ... so there’s lots of reasons why, not withstanding tax incentives and other little government perks, why the media would be beholden, you know, to the politicians who hold the reins of government. And when you have such an aggressive government as we do, which is ideological and has this desire to control and amass great power, then you have really a recipe for dictatorship. And that’s what we have: We don’t have an independent Fourth Estate doing its job. And we have problems there.

The Conyers Report: An Interview by William Rivers Pitt Thursday 17 August 2006

...
A lot of different threads to tie together here, to be sure. Thankfully, Congressman John Conyers Jr. (D-Mich.) has managed to do so in historic fashion. He has released a 350-page report titled "The Constitution in Crisis; The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Coverups in the Iraq War, and Illegal Domestic Surveillance."

Within the pages of this report lies the hard, ugly truth of our sorry situation. The lies that led us into Iraq, the horrors of torture at Abu Ghraib, the unrelenting attacks against critics, and the frightening desiccation of Constitutional protections are described in scathing detail.

"The single overriding characteristic running through all of the allegations of misconduct identified in our Report," reads the conclusion, "has been the unwillingness of the Bush Administration to allow its actions to be subject to any form of meaningful outside review. Not only were 122 Members of Congress unable to obtain any response to their questions posed regarding the Downing Street Minutes, but neither the House nor the Senate has ever engaged in any serious review of the facts surrounding the NSA domestic spying programs. The institutional damage resulting from such constitutional neglect will likely be felt for many years, if not generations. The lesson of this Report is that if we allow intelligence, military and law enforcement to do their work free of political interference, if we give them requisite resources and modern technologies, if we allow them to 'connect the dots' in a straight forward and non-partisan manner, we can protect our citizens. We all want to fight terrorism, but we need to fight it the right way, consistent with our Constitution, and in a manner that serves as a model for the rest of the world."
...

JC: We have found that there is substantial evidence the President, the Vice-President and other high ranking members of the Bush administration misled Congress and the American people regarding the decision to go to war in Iraq; misstated and manipulated intelligence information regarding the justification for such war; countenanced torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment in Iraq; permitted inappropriate retaliation against critics of their administration; and approved domestic surveillance that is both illegal and unconstitutional. We also have found there has been no independent review of the circumstances surrounding the Bush administration's domestic spying scandals.
...
JC: I wanted to publish this report to make sure that everyone was aware of all the facts that we had compiled. The last 6 years have witnessed a crippling diminution in the power of Congress. I hope this report will serve as an important step toward restoring the balance of powers that are the basis of our Constitution and American democracy as a whole.
...
JC: The failure of the GOP Congress to conduct any meaningful oversight of the many documented allegations of abuse by the administration.
...
JC: The upcoming elections couldn't be more important. If we want to have real government - as our founding fathers envisaged - a Congress with a Constitutional system of checks and balances holding the administration accountable, then now is the time we need to take back control of Congress.
...
JC: You start with oversight and a sense of institutional and Constitutional responsibility. We need to change the present mindset - for too long the Bush administration has seen Congress as an institution that would not stand up for its own prerogatives or independently represent the American people. I think we can come back from the brink, but we need a new Congressional majority to do so.

[otohara]

148. I Will in The General Election

made a vow to not vote for anyone who voted to give Bush illegal war in primary.

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. My experience with the poll takers

I got the call, they ask what candidate?

I said Edwards

Oh Hillary

NO EDWARDS

That made me somewhat suspect

Oh it was US News and World Report

[tiptoe]

156. interesting and noted. nt

[eridani]

155. The people you know pay attention

Most of the voters don't, and the teevee tells them who the real candidates are.

[Indenturedebtor]

159. I dont' know many democrats

But the ones I do know are not for Clinton. She comes off as insincere and frankly her views seem barely left of right to me. She's vague and changes her stance with the winds. Just another bullshit artist IMO. Give me Kucinich, Gore, Edwards, Obama. Give me a person that speaks with conviction.

[IndianaJones]

162. most Democrats. nt.

[lojasmo]

163. RUPERT MURDOCH DOES. EOM

[Mizmoon]

172. Hillary and the Romanian Orphans

In my mind Hillary is the only decent Dem candidate and that's why the puke controlled press goes after her. That is why the meme against her is spun every day.

She's smart as hell, started out middle class, got into the Ivy League on merit, worked her way up ... she's compassionate but rational. Liberal but not a lunatic. Yeah, I am a centrist compared to most of you, that's why I rarely post here anymore, but I think she's the ideal candidate.

I read in her autobiography about how she had to control her emotions while touring a Romanian orphanage. The place was a hellhole and the staff was trying their best to care for dozens of seriously disabled kids with nearly no supplies, salary, or support. This was a few years after the tv expose of the horrors in Romanian orphanages so it was after they were trying to remedy the situation.

Hillary's staff nearly all burst out in tears because they couldn't take it. The horror was too much. Hillary wrote that she used all her will not to cry because the orphanage staff was going to be there for years after she left and she didn't want them to feel like things were hopeless. She also arranged for them to get mucho supplies after.

I admire her smarts, her self-control, her will, her willingness to work hard and earn things like the grudging respect of conservative upstate New Yorkers. She also keeps trying to warm up groups that hate her for no reason, like those firemen who booed her a few years ago. She's fearless, not afraid to go into the lion's den, and is tenacious.

Of course I have unusual views and I acknowledge that. I think the shame of the Iraq war is the incompetence. They spend all this time, treasure, and human life, and they didn't even manage to steal the freakin oil. Dummies. I hate imperialism, but I hate incompetent imperialists the most. At least the robber barons, for all thier selfish evil, knew how to get things done. If they could have resurrected Cornelius Vanderbilt to run this war we'd have had the entire mid-east oil supply neatly barreled up and shipped to Missouri by now, and for half of what we've spent shooting ourselves in the foot repeatedly over the last several years *snort*