Hillary is pretty sharp and quick on her feet...but comes off real shrill

[fujiyama]

I know I'm not the only one that feels that way. One of my less political friends mentioned that as well out of the blue ("it sounds like she's yelling all the time"). I caught a few minutes of the debate when she went after Obama's Pakistan statement, and when she raises her voice, it's tough to listen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Edit:

I didn't really realize the sexist connotations of the word "shrill" until after posting the thread. In all honesty, my reaction had nothing to do with her being a woman at all (after all, the senator and governor of my state are both Dem women). I just find her tone and speaking style a bit irritating. Also, I should note that I do not support Hillary in the primaries, so perhaps implicitly I am looking for things about her to dislike.

So, I'd like to apologize for offending anyone.

[Fridays Child]

1. I just love it when a forceful, assertive woman is labeled as shrill.

:eyes:

[Mojorabbit]

5. It has nothing to do with her being a woman

She did sound shrill at times. Dodd sounded like he was yelling. My apolitical hubby commented on both. He happens to think a woman would make a better president.

[MonkeyFunk]

6. I've never once

heard a male politician - or any male, for that matter - described as "shrill".

[fujiyama]

12. I consider Pat Buchanan shrill...

as well as Chris Matthews and other political pundits/aka mediawhores. I honestly didn't think of it with respect to gender.

[Bonobo]

39. I did a google on "he sounded shrill" and got this fyi:

"The second half of the show was a half-hour debate between Ohio Senate incumbent Mike DeWine (R) and Democratic challenger Sherrod Brown. At first, Brown came off sounding a little week -- but compared to DeWine, Brown sounded calm, assured and centered. Tim gave DeWine noticeably more time to talk than Brown -- which didn't help, as he sounded shrill, stammered while trying to make crucial points (read: spout GOP talking points) on more than one occasion, and a little desperate at times."

Last week Kansas Republican party chair Tim Shallenberger lit into former Republicans like Mark Parkinson for defecting to the Democratic Party, saying that they weren’t real Republicans to begin with.
He sounded shrill and voters are getting disgusted with such blatant partisanship.

And that's just a quick start. So I guess you're wrong.

[Fridays Child]

8. Chris Dodd yelled. Hillary Clinton was shrill.

Nope. That descriptor has nothing to do with her sex. And "shrill" is not a gender-specific pejorative, either. Uh uh.

What. Ever.

[Mojorabbit]

20. Her voice can sound

like fingernails on a chalkboard. It is a fact. Nothing to do with gender. I heard she has been taking speaking lessons and the improvement is obvious. Tonight not as much as during the last debate.
Edited to say. Barbara Boxer has a wonderful voice and speaking ability and I could listen to her speak all day. Hillary is coming along but has a long way to go. This is my opinion.

[Joe the Revelator]

11. You've got to be kidding me....

If I were to describe Edwards as sound southern, or Gravel as sounding, ironically, gravelly, that would also be sexist? This is unbeliviable. Anytime someone makes a factual critque of clinton (love her or hate her, her voice CAN be shrill) the bots come out and accuse anyone in arms length of being sexist.

Its really quite amazing.

[laugle]

18. Hillary supporters are not

ROBOTS.....that's very insulting. We are intelligent, articulate, critical thinking people!

We are all on the same team here at DU and should treat each other with respect.

[Fridays Child]

30. I'm not a supporter of Hillary Clinton--not even close.

At this stage, I've got one foot in the Edwards camp and one in the Obama camp. But, Hillary? Nope.

[ronnykmarshall]

31. Let's make a deal.

I'll call out anyone that calls Obama supporters "BO Supporters" or "BO Sniffers" if you'll chill out with the whole "Hill bots" horse shit.

[Forkboy]

16. At yet just three threads below this we find this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3434846#3434851

A woman calling Biden shrill.

[napi21]

2. Just wat is your description of shrill? I thought she did GREAT!

So a woman who raises a forceful voice upsets you and your friends?

Here's the online dictionary definition.

shrill(shrl)
adj. shrill·er, shrill·est
1. High-pitched and piercing in tone or sound: the shrill wail of a siren.
2. Producing a sharp, high-pitched tone or sound: a shrill fife.
3. Sharp or keen to the senses; harshly vivid: shrill colors.
v. shrilled, shrill·ing, shrills
v.tr.
To utter in a shrill manner; scream.
v.intr.
To produce a shrill cry or sound.

NOTHING Hillary ever wasy sounds like that to me!

[mzteris]

3. SHRILL.

Oh yeah, cause she doesn't sing bass or tenor, you know.

Love the pejorative.

Sorry if I'm going off on your for no real reason - but - right this very moment I'm having a real problem with "men" who label any woman who - instead of being a frickin' DOORMAT - speaks up for herself in a forceful manner as "shrill".

:nuke:


edit: 'cause I'm so mad I'm can't spell straight!

[Egnever]

22. oh boy

:eyes:

[MonkeyFunk]

4. No

you're not the only one who thinks that. A lot of people are sexist.

[bluestateguy]

7. Lose Lose situation

People say they want someone who comes across as strong and resolute. Then when Hillary does that she's "shrill". If she changes her persona to be more like the lovable kindergarten teacher, then people will say that she isn't tough enough to be president.

[vanlassie]

9. Shrill?

According to my dyed-in-the-wool GOP father, Hillary also has "thick ankles."

What century is this, again????


vanlassie

[ronnykmarshall]

32. and some people around here think she needs botox.

Imagine that!

[Ellen Forradalom]

10. Are you afraid of a President who will make you clean your room?

I suggest you start getting used to it, in case she becomes President.

[fujiyama]

13. I would have no problem if she were president (though I'd prefer other Dems instead)

At least she can speak coherent sentences unlike the dumbass in office right now.

[Ellen Forradalom]

26. Already a HUGE improvement.

n/t

[LuckyLib]

14. If you want a female voice more "easy on the ears" listen to Rep Michelle Bachmann.

The content will make you gag, but at least you won't think she's "shrill."

[laugle]

15. You are correct, it is sexist!

Last time it was her jackets and that she appeared emotionless. Let me know when they say that about a man!

Nobody ever says Biden is bald and wears hair plugs, or Kucinich appears very small at the podium, or Richardson dyes his hair, on and on, none of it has anything to do with ability!

Hell, everyone in the debate was practically shouting the whole time, it's not so easy for a woman to shout, if she hadn't spoke loudly, she would be accused of not being strong and forceful. She just can't win with some people.......

She is a woman of substance.....and I admire and respect that!

[Egnever]

23. Since when?

shrill /ʃrɪl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation adjective, -er, -est, verb, noun, adverb
–adjective 1. high-pitched and piercing in sound quality: a shrill cry.
2. producing such a sound.
3. full of or characterized by such a sound: shrill music.
4. betraying some strong emotion or attitude in an exaggerated amount, as antagonism or defensiveness.
5. marked by great intensity; keen: the shrill, incandescent light of the exploding bomb.
–verb (used with object), verb (used without object) 6. to cry shrilly.
–noun 7. a shrill sound.
–adverb 8. in a shrill manner; shrilly.


Where is the sexist part?

[laugle]

41. Let me know when they say that

about a man! Frankly, they all sounded like they were yelling!

Sexism has always been here, and I suspect it will continue.........

[AnotherGreenWorld]

25. Edwards's jacket comment was a joke.

You act as though the media only focuses on trivialities for Sen. Clinton. Edwards's comment about Sen. Clinton's jacket was obviously a joke. TV pundits, perhaps because they are just that dumb, made it seem like Edwards was viciously attacking her, making Edwards, not Clinton, look like a jackass--playing into the 'Edwards is vain' narrative they love so much.

But of course trivialities are what drive media coverage. Substance is rarely, if ever, discussed.

Chris Matthews, after the forum, rather than talking about what was said, commented that John Edwards didn't get the sort of thunderous responses one would think he would get. This was, according to Matthews, because he's so darn small. One pundit corrected him and said, "well, he's really not small." Then Matthews went on to talk about how he looks small in a football stadium. And of course, Kucinich, the smallest man on the stage, received the loudest and most frequent applause. So it doesn't seem likely that the audience was thinking, "Yeah, I like what Edwards is saying. But gosh darn it, he's just so small. I can't clap for this guy!"

In 2004, pundits commented on Kerry's tan and his botox injections. I've not yet heard anyone mention Sen. Clinton's.

This is just what journalists and TV pundits do. They're really not that smart. It's not some agenda they have. When all of the pundits misinterpreted Obama's response in the last debate, they weren't being malicious. They're just not intelligent people.

[ellacott]

38. Actually they do talk about Biden's hairplugs and Kucinich's looks

People are saying that Kucinich would be farther in the polls if he was more attractive.

Nixon lost a debate and eventually the campaign because he sweat a lot and wasn't considered as attractive as Kennedy.

There may be a bit of sexism with Hillary just like their is a little racism with Obama.

[opihimoimoi]

17. She would do well if she slowed it ...A LOT.....a few well placed words is worth more than 100's no

one remembers....

Simplicity girl...keep it simple and slow...

[lvx35]

19. I don't think shrill is sexist, but I did like Hillary.

I get annoyed when critique or even compliments of her have to be routed back to her gender. Hillary can handle her own, and that means the gender stuff as well. She is capable of being a bitch, (language some might consider sexist) which I greatly admire in her.

But to your point I think she came off well. The woman just does NOT make mistakes, she's ice. She never fucks up a response, which is not something you can say of most of the other candidates. And she always hits some right on. She has energy, she knows how to get us excited. My differences with her are political, but DAMN she looks powerful on that stage, I must confess.

[JDPriestly]

21. "She's ice." She does not make mistakes. It's her voice.

That's what people are talking about when they say she is shrill. She sounds like she has rehearsed what she is saying. Her voice does not express emotion because she does not use it right.

It is hard for a woman to find her speaking voice. Hillary may not be endowed with a voice that has a lot of expressive timbre. She will need a lot of lessons to loosen up and find the resonance in her voice that gives her warmth and what musicians call timbre. Think about the voices of Aretha Franklin and Ella Fitzgerald. Those singers allowed their voices to come from deep within themselves and to resonate. Hillary was not born with the vocal instruments that those women were given and could, probably, never have had a voice like theirs. But there is something else missing in her vocal production. Her voice comes from her mind. She doesn't connect to her body when she speaks. Obama does. Edwards does. Kucinich did tonight, especially when he realized how well he was being received by the crowd.

Dodd has a good voice although he was not connecting his emotions and his voice particularly well tonight. Biden -- I don't know what to say about him.

Hillary's voice sounds dry -- professorish. She has improved on this. She used to be as bad as Condoleeza Rice. But Hillary now has lost that extremely sing-songish sound that she and Condi used to have (and Condi still has). Hillary doesne't really breathe so as to produce a good sound. She needs to plant her feet in the ground, center herself better (a spiritual thing), breathe with her belly and let her voice go through her whole body. She needs to sing and do vocalises until she gets it. So, yes, she was shrill, and no, it's not just a sexist remark. It's a lack of musical training. What a shame. There is really no such thing as tone deaf unless someone has a physical disability.

By the way, Bill Clinton has a great voice. That is one of the reasons people like him so much. His voice touches your heart because it comes from Bill Clinton's whole person, not just his mind but also his body. And yes, your voice shows how sensual you are. Sorry, but the more senusal you are, the less shrill your voice. Who knows, if Hillary works on her voice, she might even get a better sex life . . . . Just saying . . . .

[lvx35]

35. That's a really interesting critique

And I do know what you're talking about. She has videos on her website, and the one on energy, used in the famous Obama/Apple commercial her voice sounds SO fake in. So she doesn't come off as open as the other candidates, especially next to Kucinich who had so much fire and confidence and feeling in the last debate.

But I'm not sure how I feel about it, because some of it is what I like about Hillary. You've got to remember, we've already seen this woman's face totally depleted from crying during the Monica gate thing. So we know she's human with emotions. And I can see her having to put on an icy demeanor at that time to hide some of the inner turmoil from smirking Republicans, not wanting to give them the pleasure or seeing her emotional. So in the context of the big story, I'm not sure that iciness bothers me that much.

But it does bother me just a little. Like, I'm afraid to like her because I'm not sure I'm invited to the party. She does need to open up a little, and let us know that the big DC cleaning party is something we are all invited to including the far left netroots. Or she needs to do it symbolically through kindness to people like Kucinich.

[Andromeda]

24. At least you admit you are looking for...

fault in Hillary's manner and speech. I don't find her shrill at all but I can understand why you think so.

Women in leadership have to speak with force which may be at odds with the "feminine code of conduct" in our society. Men are rarely called shrill (with the exception of Biden in another thread).

Maybe she'll become more comfortable if others will just let her be herself and stop critiquing her on her appearance and her cleavage.

[wyldwolf]

27. hey, me and "one of my less political friends" disagrees with you.

[beastieboy]

28. OK, Rush.

[Bake]

29. I didn't think she was shrill at all.

In that particular venue, everybody tended to raises their voices a bit. It's almost instinctive to think that in a large outdoor venue, you have to speak louder and the microphone alone won't do it.

Somebody - Matthews, I think - pointed that out (correctly, in my opinion) last night and said she managed to avoid the temptation to get louder/higher pitched. I agree. I didn't hear shrill. I heard forceful.

Hillary has not been my pick, and still isn't. But I'm liking more and more of what I see and hear from her.

Bake

[Bread and Circus]

33. My wife pointed out how shrill she sounds last night. She does sound like she's yelling.

[beastieboy]

34. Apology accepted.

[zulchzulu]

36. Of course, some will act like her voice is not annoying...

It's an act.

[William769]

37. I have no problem with her voice.

I do have a problem listening to someone that stutters.

[Forkboy]

40. How do you know it's an act?

I no fan but her voice doesn't bother me at all. Am I acting?

Jesus,your hate is an ugly thing to behold.You are the exact mirror image of the Hillary supporters you don't like.Does that ever occur to you at all? And if it does,do you just convince yourself it isn't really the case? Because I have to tell,I see zero difference between you and them.

[zulchzulu]

42. Gazzoinks....

I find her voice when she yells annoying. I don't hate her. I just will not support her in the primary season for a lot of reasons.

Can that be said without some sophmoric diatribe? Spare me... :crazy:

[Forkboy]

43. Nice try...you made a claim.

Back it up or admit you're just talking shit.You don't know it's act,like you claimed.Someone asks you to back up your nonsensical spew and you can't take it.Talk about sophomoric (and even your spelling of sophomoric was sophomoric).

Once again,take a long,good look in any mirror in your house,because you just proved my point about you.

[zulchzulu]

45. I'll spell it out for you and whoever real nice and simple

1. I do not support the Clinton family this time around in the primary season for many reasons and know that the Republican Party is waiting for uninformed people to make her the nominee.

2. When Senator Clinton speaks loudly, her voice bothers me. I am not alone. Compared to other women with better pipes, like Barbara Boxer or even Nancy Pelosi (who I'd love as Presidents on their own merits without needing their husband), Hillary Clinton's voice when she screams is like chalk slowly scraping on a chalkboard.

3. I plan on putting people who annoy me on Ignore so that I don't have to read their misinformed, oddly concocted moral subjectivity on a candidate that I find second-rate to other candidates. You just made the list.

[Forkboy]

47. Too bad you never backed up your claim.

"It's an act."

See ya in the funny papers.

[dragonkeep]

44. You have heard her sing....

Most of her problem is an inability to modulate her voice: one of those people who cannot carry a tune in a bucket. Her efforts to have a firm voice that projects comes off as harsh. Make allowances for that before you criticize her voice.

[MethuenProgressive]

46. "I am looking for things about her to dislike" - OP

Really? Who knew... :eyes:

[eridani]

48. I don't mind her voice

I mind her pro-corporate policies.

[NMDemDist2]

49. thank you for your concern

good grief

she was in a freaking FOOTBALL STADIUM! of course she had to yell...

:banghead:

[otohara]

50. Self Confident & Smart

She's doing so well, scoring points on these guys left and right.
She is very impressive and my kind of woman.
Saying that, I will not vote for her in the primary (because of her IWR vote), but will if she is our nominee.

[tuvor]

51. To hell with image.

To hell, I say.