Can You Name A *Single* Thing That Mrs. Clinton Has Stood Up For And Won?

[MannyGoldstein]

I just saw a post that got me thinking...

Last Night, Mrs. Clinton said "For 15 years, I have stood up against the right-wing machine. And I've come out stronger... If you want a winner who knows how to take them on, I'm your girl."

I can't name a single Democratic cause that she's taken on and won - can you? Only Republican favorites like the Iraq War, "free" trade with China, the "Patriot" Act, the first no-predatory lender-left-behind bankruptcy act, etc.

In fact, during her 6+ years of senator, I can't think of a single Democratic issue that she's stuck her neck out on. Zero.

Can anyone think of any Democratic cause that she's stood up for and and won? Or even just stood up for, even if she didn't win?

[hlthe2b]

1. Well, for starters, she has earned the right to be referred to as

SENATOR Clinton.... I may not be a supporter, but I DO respect her.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

26. If a homless person were given millions of dollars to run for the Senate,

and cleaned up a bit, he could win just as well. Not really much of an accomplishment when you have the name recognition and money she had.

[Buzz Clik]

38. But that wasn't your question.

One gets the impression you simply were itching for a fight.

Happy now?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

41. I didn't ask a question.

hlthe2b claimed HRC has earned the right to be called Senator. While I do generally refer to her as Senator Clinton, I hardly think she earned her Senate seat.

Did Bush earn his spot at Yale, his ownership of the Texas Rangers, or anything else in his life?

[hlthe2b]

54. I'm not a HRC supporter at this point--too centrist for me...BUT

to compare her accomplishments to Bush* is just blatantly ridiculous. HRC made her own way and had tremendous accomplishments before she ever met Bill Clinton. To suggest otherwise, is either willful ignorance, or something less benevolent, IMO.

[hlthe2b]

48. That individual would also deserve the title of Senator

Not-so-subtle misogyny not-withstanding....Mrs. Clinton, indeed :eyes:

[AnotherGreenWorld]

53. Yeah, I agree.

She should be called Senator Clinton and not Mrs. Clinton. I'm just saying I don't think her winning a Senate seat was much of accomplishment--considering the circumstances.

[MonkeyFunk]

77. why?

It certainly was no sure-thing that she'd win.

She was tied with Lazio a few months before the election. New York State is huge, and very varied, politically. It elected Pataki governor 3 times, and sent Al D'Amato to the senate 3 times.

She ran in a difficult state and won.

[onenote]

75. and that's why Lynn Swann is a senator today.

Oh, wait. He's not.

But its always nice to hear from the students who got D- in political science.

[AnotherGreenWorld]

90. No political scientist would deny that elections are essentially bought. That is my point.

Sen. Clinton bought her seat. That's not an accomplishment.

its = possessive
it's = it is

It's always nice to hear from students who got an F in English.

Hope this helps.

[eggman67]

94. Not to nit pick but

When did Lynn Swann run for Senate?

[onenote]

98. My bad.

He ran for governor. But the point holds. It takes more than name recognition and money to get elected.

And before anyone yelps, I recognize that name recognition are important. But the fact that Hillary had name recognition and money was not what got her elected in New York. Or, to put the question differently, does anyone think Hillary, with the same money and the same name recognition could've gotten elected Senator from Utah?

Hillary got elected in New York because it is a predominantly Democratic state and, despite what you may read here at DU, Hillary is actually pretty popular among a lot of Democrats.

[catgirl]

95. How is that accomplishing a democratic cause?

Had she become a Senator AND voted the right way, sure, that would be
an accomplishment for the good of democrats. But to simply BE a senator
hardly answers the OP question. I agree with Manny. And if Al Gore runs, he
gets my vote. He actually accomplishes things, big things.

[opihimoimoi]

2. Since she is leading in the major Polls, she musta done sumpthin right

[mikelgb]

100. BUZZ Wrong. Try again.

unless I misunderstood your meaning of 'right'

[KaptBunnyPants]

103. Did you support Bush when he was popular as well?

I know some people are just naturally followers, but it's rare to see someone admit it.

[eweaver155]

3. She did a stand by my man song.

[shenmue]

4. How exactly can anyone guarantee that they'll win?

How was she supposed to do that? You can say that about anyone.

This is not a monarchy, and Senator Clinton spent most of her electorial career with a predominantly Republican Congress to contend with.

What is she, the goddamn Navy Seabees?

Can you name me too many other people in Congress with the guts to even ask about national health care?

Maybe a few. But not many.

Stop with the Hillary-hating. You talked a bunch about her, but you didn't stick your neck out for anyone else.

I love these people who live in a dream world, where they think any Democrat in Congress can get done what they want easily, and if they face a big fight, well, it just means they really didn't care enough.

Stop being cranky. It's this "I'm not going with a candidate if they're not 100% what I want on everything" that costs us ground.

When was the last time *you* fought for something in Congress and won, big shot?

[eweaver155]

5. The question is Did she produce Health Care or Did she back down

ANSWER : NO

[wyldwolf]

14. Hey, eweaver155, don't let the facts stand in your way.

DEMOCRATS shot it down. In a DEMOCRATIC controlled Congress...

Conservatives, libertarians, and the insurance industry staged a campaign against the "Health Security" plan and criticized it as being overly bureaucratic and restrictive of patient choice. The effort included extensive advertising criticizing the plan, including the famous Harry and Louise ad paid for by the Health Insurance Association of America, which depicted a middle-class couple despairing over the plan's supposed complex, bureaucratic nature.

Time, CBS News, CNN, the Wall Street Journal and the Christian Science Monitor ran stories questioning whether there really was a health-care crisis. Op-eds were written against it, including one in The Washington Post by University of Virginia Professor Martha Derthick that said, "In many years of studying American social policy, I have never read an official document that seemed so suffused with coercion and political naivete ... with its drastic prescriptions for controlling the conduct of state governments, employers, drug manufacturers, doctors, hospitals and you and me."

Daniel Patrick Moynihan qualified his agreement that "there is no health care crisis" by stating "there is an insurance crisis" but also indicated "anyone who thinks can work in the real world as presently written isn't living in it." Meanwhile, Democrats, instead of uniting behind the President's original proposal, offered a number of competing plans of their own. Some criticized the plan from the left, preferring a Canadian-style single payer system.

On September 26, 1994, George J. Mitchell, the Senate Majority Leader, announced that the plan was dead, at least for that session of Congress. The defeat weakened Clinton politically, emboldened Republicans, and contributed to the notion that Hillary Clinton was a big-government liberal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillarycare

[eweaver155]

27. The FACTS is Do We have Health Care - HELL NO Those are the FACTS

[wyldwolf]

31. YOU said she backed down. THAT is untrue. The only question is did you KNOW that when you typed it

[MannyGoldstein]

58. I'm Not Claiming That I Fought For Something In Congress And Won

Last time I checked.

[rinsd]

80. Except she didn't claim that. Even Skinner busted your ass for deliberate distortion (nt)

[robcon]

6. You're not even trying, MannyGoldstein.

From her website...

"She is the first New Yorker ever to serve on the Senate Armed Services Committee, working to see that America's military has the necessary resources to protect our national security. She has visited troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and at Fort Drum in New York, home of the 10th Mountain Division and other New York bases, as well as at Walter Reed Military Hospital. She has learned first-hand the challenges facing American combat forces. Hillary passed legislation to track the health status of our troops so that conditions like Gulf War Syndrome would no longer be misdiagnosed. She is an original sponsor of legislation that expanded health benefits to members of the National Guard and Reserves and has been a strong critic of the Administration's handling of Iraq.

But Hillary has recognized that we can't ignore our problems at home while we face challenges overseas. She has introduced legislation to tie Congressional salary increases to an increase in the minimum wage, because she believes if America's working people don't deserve a raise, neither does Congress. She has supported a variety of middle-class tax cuts, including marriage penalty relief, property tax relief, and reduction in the Alternative Minimum Tax, and supports fiscally responsible pay-as-you-go budget rules. She helped pass legislation that encouraged investment to create jobs in struggling communities through the Renewal Communities program. She has championed legislation to bring broadband Internet access, which is so important in today's information economy, to rural America.

In the Senate, Hillary has not wavered in her work to expand quality affordable health care to more Americans. She worked to strengthen the Children's Health Insurance Program, which increased coverage for children in low income and working families. She authored legislation that has been enacted to improve quality and lower the cost of prescription drugs and to protect our food supply from bioterrorism. She sponsored legislation to increase America's commitment to fighting the global HIV/AIDS crisis, and is now leading the fight for expanded use of information technology in the health care system to decrease administrative costs, lower premiums, and reduce medical errors.

Her strong advocacy for children continues in the Senate. Some of Hillary's proudest achievements have been her work to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, and her legislation to help schools address environmental hazards. She has also proposed expanding access to child care. She has passed legislation that will bring more qualified teachers into classrooms and more outstanding principals to lead our schools.

Hillary has been a powerful advocate for women in the Senate. Her commitment to supporting the rights guaranteed in Roe v. Wade and to reducing the number of abortions by reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies was hailed by the New York Times as "frank talk...(and) a promising path." Hillary is one of the original cosponsors of the Prevention First Act to increase access to family planning. Her fight with the Bush Administration ensured that Plan B, an emergency contraceptive, will be available to millions of American women and will reduce the need for abortions.

Hillary is strongly committed to making sure that every American has the right to vote in fair, accessible, and credible elections. She introduced the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 to ensure better protection of votes and to ensure that every vote is counted."
http://www.hillaryclinton.com/about/senator/

[wyldwolf]

7. see, after your OP's title, you try to qualify the answer as "Democratic" issue.

What is a "Democratic" issue? :shrug:

Anyway, I include on MY list of "Democratic" issues the fact that Hillary led efforts to make adoption easier, to expand early learning and child care, to increase funding for breast cancer research, and to help veterans suffering from Gulf War syndrome who had too often been ignored in the past. She helped launch a national campaign to prevent teen pregnancy and helped create the Adoption and Safe Families Act of 1997, which moved children from foster care to adoption more quickly. Thanks in part to her efforts, the number of children who have moved out of foster care into adoption has increased dramatically. She was instrumental in designing and championing the State Children’s Health Insurance Program, which has provided millions of children with health insurance.

She battled the big drug companies to force them to test their drugs for children and to make sure all kids get the immunizations they need through the Vaccines for Children Program. Immunization rates dramatically improved after the program launched.After the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, Hillary worked with her colleagues to secure the funds New York needed to recover and rebuild. She fought to provide compensation to the families of the victims, grants for hard-hit small businesses, and health care for front line workers at Ground Zero.

She has introduced legislation to tie Congressional salary increases to an increase in the minimum wage, because she believes if America’s working people don’t deserve a raise, neither does Congress. She has supported a variety of middle-class tax cuts, including marriage penalty relief, property tax relief, and reduction in the Alternative Minimum Tax, and supports fiscally responsible pay-as-you-go budget rules.

She helped pass legislation that encouraged investment to create jobs in struggling communities through the Renewal Communities program. She worked to strengthen the Children’s Health Insurance Program, which increased coverage for children in low income and working families. She authored legislation that has been enacted to improve quality and lower the cost of prescription drugs and to protect our food supply from bioterrorism. She sponsored legislation to increase America’s commitment to fighting the global HIV/AIDS crisis, and is now leading the fight for expanded use of information technology in the health care system to decrease administrative costs, lower premiums, and reduce medical errors.

Her strong advocacy for children continues in the Senate. Some of Hillary’s proudest achievements have been her work to ensure the safety of prescription drugs for children, with legislation now included in the Best Pharmaceuticals for Children Act, and her legislation to help schools address environmental hazards. She has also proposed expanding access to child care. She has passed legislation that will bring more qualified teachers into classrooms and more outstanding principals to lead our schools. AND SHE HAD THE BALLS TO TELL RUMSFELD TO HIS FACE THAT HE WAS A LOSER

[Clark2008]

9. She doesn't have balls.

Despite what some rightwingers may tell you. She has ovaries.

[wyldwolf]

10. uh... yeah.

:shrug:

[Clark2008]

18. You said she had balls to stand up to Rummy.

I contend that she doesn't have balls. She has ovaries.

And, after birthing two babies, let me assure you that ovaries are tougher than balls. :7

[wyldwolf]

21. oh. Got it. After marrying an Italian woman, I agree 100% with your statement.

[Captain Hilts]

24. that's right. You don't need to own a pair of balls to have moral fortitude. nt

[MannyGoldstein]

37. Nothing There Is An Issue That She Stuck Her Neck Out On

Waiting to go after Rumsfeld until everyone else had? Please.

Perhaps you can enlighten me on Mrs. Clinton's pivotal role in SCHIP.

Vaccines For Children? That was *really* controversial. Not.

And so forth.

All I'm looking for is a single instance where Mrs. Clinton took a difficult stand, and won.

[wyldwolf]

42. typically, you're retroactively adding caveats to your original question...

... trying to spin every answer.

1. How do you KNOW she didn't "stick her neck out" on these? How far would she have to stick her neck out for you to agree she stuck her neck out? And I guess, before you answer, we should define "neck" and "out."

2. You didn't ask for "controversial" things. :shrug:

[MannyGoldstein]

47. Typically, You're Pretending That I'm Adding Retroactive Caveats

I don't see how "sticking one's neck out" is different from "standing up to". Perhaps you can elucidate.

Or better yet, come up with an example. Glomming on to a lot of popular legislation is certainly not "standing up" for anything.

[wyldwolf]

52. you're OP did not put a condition of "controversial" on anything. A retroactive caveat.

[MannyGoldstein]

57. How Does "Standing Up For" *Not* Include "Controversial"

Please elucidate - the world is waiting.

[wyldwolf]

59. LOL! Why didn't you just ask "What super duper awesome inspiring against -all-odds...

... things have Clinton done. Forget the normal Senate stuff."

[MannyGoldstein]

73. I Was Expecting A Non-Answer

Sadly, I was correct.

[wyldwolf]

74. The "progressive" dictionary defines "non-answer" as "an answer you don't like"

[rinsd]

78. Keep goal post moving.

You're so full of it, your eyes are brown.

[SaveElmer]

66. Not to mention the work she did for New York post 9/11...

Working with Senator Byrd to secure the funding needed for security, to support first responders, and for the health of rescue workers...

Impressive for a freshman Senator...or so says Senator Byrd...but what does he know...he's only been there since 1959...

[mdmc]

8. she shed light on those awful video games!

:toast:

[Maribelle]

11. Real women sit down.

And these pissing contest that men love, don't matter to real women.

[William769]

13. Real men don't attack women with bullshit they can't back up.

Only weasels do.

[displacedtexan]

12. Here's Clinton's Senate Record

The Library of Congress' Thomas service maintains a complete record of legislative activity in Congress. It is the best place to find information on bills that Senator Clinton has sponsored, co-sponsored, and supported.

109th: 177 sponsored senate bills, resolutions and/or amendments; 720 co-sponsored

108th: 138 sponsored; 688 co-sponsored

107th: 161 sponsored; 495 co-sponsored

Since Thomas doesn't include this year's data, the lists above indicate Sen. Clinton's endeavors while Republicans controlled both houses.

Edited to add: I would also defend any other Dem prez candidate's record under fire during the time Repukes controlled both houses.

[MannyGoldstein]

34. You've Answered Nothing I Asked

I didn't ask for a rundown of what she sponsored and co-sponsored. I'm asking for Democratic concerns that she stood up for and won - should be easy for you to hit this out of the park, no?

[displacedtexan]

50. Here's the rest of what you wrote in your OP...

In fact, during her 6+ years of senator, I can't think of a single Democratic issue that she's stuck her neck out on. Zero.

Can anyone think of any Democratic cause that she's stood up for and and won? Or even just stood up for, even if she didn't win?

I would've thought thousands of bills, resolutions & amendments would fall under the heading of "standing up."

Who among the prez candidates meets your expectations? Maybe I'll agree.

[wyldwolf]

15. MannyGoldstein seems to have disappeared.

[William769]

16. Thats his MO wouldn't expect anything else from him.

[durrrty libby]

20. Let's give him a break. You know he is probably working hard

on the Hillary 44 site he just purchased

Promoting a candidate is hard work, doncha know

[wyldwolf]

45. he's back, and retroactively adding caveats to his original post

[Tellurian]

36. Something for Manny

as RR when he's not playing with his Hillary-is-44 website..

[rodeodance]

17. For posts like this, I generally think------Lazy---can't even do his/her research---it

that is indeed the goal!!

[Sadie4629]

19. Nit picky, I know

but it irritates me that she called herself a girl. She is an accomplished woman. Can you imagine any man in the Senate referring to himself as a boy?

[durrrty libby]

22. Oh come on. That was a fun moment. Can't a girl have a little fun?

[Sadie4629]

29. A girl can have fun

But it's going to take an adult woman to run this country. THAT'S the image she needs to project 24/7.

[durrrty libby]

33. I disagree. She is also fighting the perseption that she is

stiff or whatever. She is showing a softer side and that is a good thing

[Sadie4629]

40. I think there are other ways to do that

Male candidates can have a sense of humor and be likable without demeaning themselves.

[durrrty libby]

43. She is not a male candidate. She is unique in this race

The girl thing worked. It got big applause. Lighten up, unless of course I am just

wasting my time with another hater. They are like cockroaches here. Yes that probably is it

Toodles

[Lucinda]

114. Not around here

I'm a girl...will be to the day I die. :)

[Mutineer]

23. I'm so sick of her co-opting Bill's resume.

Could any of us use our spouse's resume to get a job? Yet HRC has no problem trying to do that in this election.

[wyldwolf]

25. how has she done that?

[durrrty libby]

35. They have been a team for decades, so get over it

[incapsulated]

91. She was effectively co-president for 8 years

Why do people think she was hated so much?

Because she had so much behind the scenes power.

I give her the same credit I would to any former vice president, when it comes to experience, honestly.

[Skinner]

28. I think you are not reading this correctly.

"For 15 years, I have stood up against the right-wing machine." You are trying to read this as being a statement about policy. It's not.

She is referring to the relentless attacks that she has endured from the right-wing smear machine. And I don't think anyone here on DU -- even people who really dislike Hillary Clinton -- can deny that she was the target of one of the most intense, most relentless, and most personal sustained political attacks in recent memory. Other than her husband, who in the last decade-and-a-half has been more villified by the right wing?

So, go ahead, criticize Hillary Clinton all you like. But the facts are clear on this: She has *earned* the right to say that she stood up to the right-wing machine for 15 years.

[durrrty libby]

30. Well said, and she is well equipped to continue fighting

them off in the general.
Contrary to what many of the Faux parrots repeat ad nauseam, she can win.

[ccpup]

32. absolutely!

I doubt many of us would have the strength to endure the onslaught she faced -- very publicly! -- from the Right Wing Smear Machine. But, along with giving her the thickest skin imaginable, I trust it also gave her a clear view into their MO and now, running as President, you can almost assume she'll be one step ahead of them. I mean, really, with as much as they've attacked her, what new info are they going to try and drag out? Any old info will be met with "been there, done that" by the Voters, so what can the Repugs do?

[AnotherGreenWorld]

39. Whoever fights monsters

should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look into the abyss, the abyss also looks into you.
--Nietzsche

[MannyGoldstein]

49. Granted - But There Is Almost No Evidence That She Is Effective At Advancing Democratic Causes

And she's quite proficient at working with Republicans to advance their efforts.

I admire her ability to take a punch - but you have to also have to move your opponent the other way to win.

[wyldwolf]

55. people in this thread have provided loads of it. You just don't like the answers you're getting.

[sandnsea]

86. She only fights when it affects HER, personally

Precisely. She is nowhere to be found when it's a matter that affects US, or another Democrat. In fact, for the last 6 years she has been more likely to use her media contacts to attack Democrats who get in her way than to go after Republicans.

And that is the problem with Hillary and the Clintons. It's all about them and their power.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

44. Well, you're known by the friends you keep, and judging from who the

most adamant defenders of Senator Clinton are, I cannot support her.

[antiimperialist]

46. Are you saying it was Hillary's fault that other congressmen blocked her health care initiative?

Not wise.

[wyldwolf]

51. Let's rephrase the question to better reflect what MannyGoldstein is looking for

Can anyone think of any Democratic cause that she's walked over hot coals for, taken up a sword and dueled with a Republican for, made deals with both God and Satan for, climbed to the top of a mountain in Tibet for...

[displacedtexan]

56. Which Dem candidate can drain the lake with a slotted spoon?

After Bill (who was too conservative for my primary vote, btw), I'm much more forgiving of less-than-perfect Dem candidates. Fixing the Bush, The Younger mess won't happen overnight.

I think we've got a great slate of candidates, and I will defend each and every one of them for "sticking their necks out" and volunteering to be Repuke smear targets.

I just hope that after our primary, we all support the general election candidate with as much enthusiasm.

[wyldwolf]

60. "What super duper awesome inspiring against -all-odds things has she done???"

[displacedtexan]

63. That's a much better question.

Can any supporters of other dem prez candidates answer it?

I'm still candidate shopping, myself, and I'd like to know if I've missed the awesome successes of any other primary candidate.

[incapsulated]

92. Probably...

Being the first female candidate for President.

(no, I have no dog in this race, I'm just calling it as I see it)

:P

[Zenlitened]

116. "...I think we've got a great slate of candidates..."

"...I think we've got a great slate of candidates, and I will defend each and every one of them for "sticking their necks out" and volunteering to be Repuke smear targets.'

I totally agree! :hi:

I'm still undecided, at the moment. I think all of our candidates have some great attributes. Each of them also has some things that make me go "hmmmmmm," too. So I'm still sorting it all out, listening to what they have to say for themselves in the months ahead.

But this trash-fest that some people engage in, attack attack attacking one Dem candidate or another... leaves me cold. I don't get that at all.

I don't expect sunshine-and-buttercups all the time. I mean, without criticism, there isn't much of a discussion! But some of the posts showing up day after day seem like little more than caricature, IMO.

This particular thread, OTOH, started out well by asking for some solid information to make the case for a particular candidate. And some decent info was provided, in amidst the jousting. That's where DU is most valuable to me, as a citizen and a voter: give me good data to help me make a smart decision come primary day.

:D

[BigDDem]

61. Have you ever considered taking up a hobby/activity/interest

other than obsessing about Hillary?

[durrrty libby]

68. Have you?

[hijinx87]

62. she's still standing

and considering the rethug onslaught she withstood (and which many here
choose to either forget or ignore), that really is saying something.

[zulchzulu]

64. Adulterers the World over adore her for her eternal forgiveness

I guess that's something to be proud of.

Oh wait...that's not an issue.

:think:

[wyldwolf]

65. Mr. Hannity, how do you find time to post here, do your radio show, and your FOX News show?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3419554

[durrrty libby]

67. When your guy is losing, all logic and decency go out the window

until you are in the sewer mingling with the rats and freepers.

It's called showing your ass and desperation

[zulchzulu]

69. So, a simple yes or no...

On the person who responded to me, I have him/her on Ignore... there are only a couple people that I just find so overly driven to blindly be morally subjective on their candidate that there was no other option.

You mentioned that "logic and decency" is in question here. Frankly, logic and decency means not cheating on your wife, especially while in the White House. It happened. Bill Clinton finally admitted it. You can't deny it.

You could predictably catcall that that's what Freepers say, but many women found Senator Clinton's husband's behavior reprehensible and felt betrayed when he first denied it and then tried to wiggle out of it like a caught teenager stealing Daddy's liquor. Maybe you selectively forget that ridiculous time when even Al Gore had to make sure Bill Clinton wasn't on the same stage as him when he ran in 2000. Was Al Gore wrong for not wanting Bill Clinton on stage with him? I think that was a pretty smart move.

And for the wife to put up with it and stay in the relationship doesn't exactly say anything good about trying to be a good female role model. Is that the best America can do by nominating this Dynamic Duo? The Republicans sure think it would be a great idea.

So the simple question... was Bill Clinton an adulterer and cheater on his wife while in the White House? Yes or No.

[durrrty libby]

70. "The Republicans sure think it would be a great idea."

You lost me right there.You are afraid of the republicans moral judgment??

What a joke

Edit to add..You have the wolf on ignore? I love me some wolf.

[zulchzulu]

71. Why help unite the Repug base?

That's my point. Right now, they have nobody and might even sit out the election....unless....

It's no joke.

[hijinx87]

76. I don't believe that for an instant

they will find a way to scare their base base to the polls.

gay marriage, terror alerts out of nowhere, bin laden sightings . . . you
are forgetting their history. their base will be there no matter what.

those bastards have been trying to get that lady for, as she said, 15
years, and they have yet to lay a glove on her. and I expect nothing
different to happen in the general election should she win the nomination.
that has got to mean something.

[durrrty libby]

81. Being afraid of repubs is idiotic. Their party is a big mess, and

dems are like abused animals, cowering in the corner afraid to wake the master

People here make me want to puke

Hillary will be a great president. Fuck all y'all big wimps

[beastieboy]

72. She kicked the shit out of Sec. Gates and had him grovelling.

[harun]

79. Over 70 posts and not one thing she stood up for cited, nuff said (n/t)

[MannyGoldstein]

82. Amazing, Isn't It?

But I suppose we have an answer.

[beastieboy]

83. Try actually reading the posts, especially Skinners. and #72

[durrrty libby]

85. They don't want to know. Let's just say they have a form of hysterical blindness

[sandnsea]

87. She fights for HER

Yeah, that's the exact point.

[harun]

93. Her pushing a lot of bills dealing with childrens adoption

and children's health care issues should be commended and acknowledged.

But in terms of STICKING your neck out they couldn't be farther from that.

I will give it to her that she is a very smart politician. She holds her own in discussions and can talk the talk.

As the original poster points out and this thread proves SHE HAS NEVER STUCK HER NECK OUT on a major Democratic issue.

My biggest problem with Hillary is that I think the neo-cons will be able to trick her into using military action unnecessarily by using the right wing noise machine to keep saying how if we had a man in office in situation X, action would be taken.

I do like her voting record on unnecessary corporate subsidies. I do not like that she supports continuing the embargo on Cuba. The rest of her voting record is good Dem votes but no out of the box stick your neck out stuff. Which I am sure she didn't do because she was going to run for Pres but still the fact is she didn't do it.

[DancingBear]

96. Maybe not an answer, but some of the finest spinning you'll ever see

The picture gets ever clearer, doesn't it???

[rinsd]

84. Except for posts 7 & 12.

Apparently you are not as honest as your candidate.

[Karmadillo]

88. The President of Canada questions your reading comprehension skills.

nt

[beastieboy]

89. Good one, LMFAO!

[CreekDog]

97. Manny undermines his own opposition to Hillary Clinton

By posting a fairly detail-less broadside against her for what she "hasn't" done.

In the process of being confronted with all she has done, suggests that what she has done doesn't count since it wasn't controversial or involving "sticking" one's neck out --something he states as a given; given meaning he will not back the statement up with evidence since it's so obvious (apparently).

Thus, to me the reader, who has not supported Hillary, Manny's post has helped me realize the following:

I have been too hard on her based on impressions and not evidence and thanks to you Manny, I am now considering supporting her, especially in light of the preponderance of evidence in this thread that came in response of your original post.

After all, your argument was that she didn't do anything important, the response was that she did quite a bit for a freshman senator and your response was essentially that she did something, but that it wasn't important.

In other words, as the representative for the anti-Hillary argument in this thread, you blew it big time and made your side look, well, weak and unsubstantial.

The law of unintended consequences wins out again.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

106. If you only spent 2 1/2 minutes then you didn't read.

Although you did show something in your post though. :eyes:

[motocicleta]

110. When you have something other than the eye-rolling, cliquish,

peer pressure, cool kid act to contribute, let me know.

[William769]

115. This is all your post deserves.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CK_John]

101. Election victory by 72% in NY. n/t

[RufusTFirefly]

102. Short answer: No

Although Skinner's point is well-taken (she was claiming she stood up against the right-wing; she wasn't suggesting that she actually stood up for anything), that doesn't preclude MannyGoldstein from asking the question and apparently it doesn't stop her defenders from failing to arrive at a satisfactory answer. Kind of pathetic really.

[rinsd]

104. There are answers in post 7 and 12.

"Kind of pathetic really."

Know what's pathetic is Hillary haters ignoring other posts then claiming nothing was provided.

Most of this thread turned into a flamefest and it started with OP's attitude.

[CreekDog]

112. rinsd: you are spot on

That's exactly what was happening in this thread.

-Manny and the gang said she didn't do anything
-People responded saying and listing what she had done
-Manny and others said those things weren't part of the anything they were talking about

Which was all totally ridiculous.

But then one of them called everyone else that didn't agree HRCbots.

Ad hominem attack, actually on us and on Hillary.

Hey doofuses, she's looking better to me everytime you post innuendo without substantiation. Keep it up and she will probably reel me in as a supporter.

Take home lesson: if the anti HRCers are going to criticize a candidate, back it up with substantial facts. Ad hominem attacks on posters who either defend HRC or ask for evidence backing your argument will probably lead non committeds to think that you actually don't have any factual basis for your claim -else you would provide it. Thus, if you don't back up your claim against a HRC supporter in some thread, you will probably encourage the undecided to support her...first, the facts will end up on her side (if you aren't properly refuting them) and second, your attack will seem personal and unfair if not based on evidence.

Yeah, what the anti-HRCers are doing is actually pretty harmful to what they want to accomplish.

[motocicleta]

119. I backed my shit up.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=744

You do whatever you want. If you follow these threads long enough, though, you will see the drones consistently do the ad hominem attacks against anyone not toeing the "Hillary is inevitable" line, without answering anything serious. My tone is solely due to that type of behavior. This has been going on for months, and when one of them answers, civilly, my problem as evidenced by the link above, then I will back off the bot accusation.

Until then, though, it appears they will say anything and attack anyone without actually providing evidence that Hillary CAN win a presidential election and HAS done anything that does not deserve the "cowardly, triangulating" label and DOES deserve some credit for voting for the IWR. In this thread, for the record, much evidence has been provided of garden variety senatorial activity - not good enough to overcome her negative value with the American public.

Which is likely not deserved, I'll point out, but it doesn't really matter in a political arena.

FYI: I don't have a candidate. I don't like any of the contenders enough to back them. I'm "too far left". The only one I think has a chance of winning is Edwards, but I couldn't possibly champion his cause because of his IWR vote. So I am not specifically pimping any candidate, nor specifically trying to bring down HRC. I just pointed out, some time ago, that she had major political baggage, and one of these idiots attacked me without trying to disprove my point. I guess I just hold a grudge. You're welcome to do the same if it makes you happy.

[AtomicKitten]

105. I applaud her work on healthcare.

[MannyGoldstein]

113. It's The One Thing She Stood Up For, As Far As I Can Tell

And it was over a decade ago, before she was a Senator. And she sure didn't win.

[unknownnews]

107. She's stood up and fought for plenty of Republican causes

Hillary Clinton has stood up and fought for plenty of
Republican causes but I've never seen anything in her public
life that strikes me as true to even the vaguest Democratic
Party ideals. As First Lady she almost singlehandedly
torpedoed national health care, and every stance she's taken
since going into politics amounts to, basically, old-fashioned
middle-of-the-road Republicanism.

And by the by, I say this as someone who rather likes Hillary
Clinton, personally. I've heard her speak several times, and I
have the impression she's a pleasant enough person. But if
she's a Democrat, so's Joe Lieberman.

[killbotfactory]

108. After healthcare?

I think she stopped butting heads with major interests groups after that, taking a more cautious approach to promoting democratic issues.

[illinoisprogressive]

109. Hillary lacks one important thing to win on things. Judgement.

[Zenlitened]

117. From the National Organization For Women, endorsing Sen. Clinton for president:

http://www.nowpacs.org/2008/hillary/issues.html

The National Organization for Women Political Action Committee (NOW PAC) has a proud history of endorsing candidates who are leaders in the struggle to achieve full equality for women and who have demonstrated through their actions strong support of women's rights across a broad range of issues.

In this tradition, NOW PAC is pleased to announce its endorsement of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton for president of the United States.

From her work as a national board member in the early years of the Children's Defense Fund to her leadership of the American Bar Association's Commission on Women in the Profession, from her role as first lady of Arkansas to first lady of the United States, Clinton has been an outspoken promoter of empowerment and inclusion, fairness and equality.

The following is a brief review of Sen. Clinton's record and stands on issues that impact freedom, equality, opportunity and justice for women and girls.

* On the issues:
o Saving the Courts
o Preserving Birth Control/Abortion Rights/Reproductive Justice
o Advancing Economic Justice
o Promoting Civil Rights and Ending Racism
o Advancing Health Care for All
o Ending Discrimination Based on Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity
o Stopping Violence Against Women
o Ending the Iraq War

Saving the Courts

Hillary Clinton recognizes the importance of the federal judiciary and opposed the nominations of both of the recent Bush appointees to the United States Supreme Court, John Roberts and Samuel Alito, and joined in the filibuster of Alito. As president, Clinton would nominate judges who respect women's rights.
Preserving Birth Control/Abortion Rights/Reproductive Justice

Senator Clinton has a strong record protecting and advancing a woman's right to control her body and to plan her family as she sees fit.

Birth Control: Clinton co-sponsored the Prevention First legislation in the senate and has long advocated for strengthening access to contraception, identifying realistic solutions to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies, and improving access to women's health care. Clinton continues to champion increased funding for Title X family planning services, and insuring equitable insurance coverage for contraception, and has introduced new legislation to ensure Medicaid coverage of contraception for low-income women.

Emergency Contraception (EC): Clinton led the fight, along with Senator Patty Murray (D-Wash.) to force the Food and Drug Administration to allow emergency contraception to be sold in pharmacies without a doctor's prescription, increasing its accessibility for emergency use. Senator Clinton also supported legislation to create, expand and fund teen pregnancy prevention programs and education programs that would include access to emergency contraceptives.

Abortion: Senator Clinton's votes have demonstrated an unwavering commitment to a woman's right to safe, legal abortion, while at the same time working on programs to reduce the number of unintended and unwanted pregnancies.

Abortion Procedures Ban: Clinton voted both times against the federal abortion procedures ban; the Supreme Court has upheld the constitutionality of that ban because of Alito's confirmation.

Young Women's Access: Clinton opposed a bill that would have made sisters, aunts, grandmothers, counselors, religious advisors -- indeed anyone who assists a minor in crossing the state line for an abortion without parental consent -- a felon. She actively campaigned against requiring parental notification for teen abortion, saying it would "put our most vulnerable teens at risk — teens who may already be endangered by negligent or even abusive homes."
Advancing Economic Justice

On every issue that affects the economic status of women and girls, Senator Clinton has advocated for a safer and more secure future.

Pay Equity: Clinton has supported and is the lead sponsor of the Paycheck Fairness Act. She has a robust track record promoting women's educational advancement and equality in the workplace.

Minimum Wage: Clinton has supported raising the minimum wage every time it has come up in Congress and understands that it is a fairness, anti-poverty and women's rights issue.

Overtime: Clinton was a leader in our fight to prevent the Department of Labor from undermining overtime protections for low-income workers, mostly women.

Work/Family Balance: Clinton supports early childhood education, universal availability of childcare for all, paid sick and family leave and policies that recognize the dual roles of workers who are parents and caregivers.

Social Security: Clinton opposes privatizing Social Security and recognizes that this social program is essential to economic security and livelihood of women and families.

Domestic Partner Benefits: Clinton supports the extension of job benefits, and indeed all of the federal benefits available to married couples, to committed same-sex partners, "nothing left out."

Immigration: Clinton supports allowing undocumented immigrants and guest workers a path to citizenship and participation in Social Security. She is promoting healthcare for immigrant children as part of the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP).

Budget and Taxes: Clinton supports funding for human needs programs that are vital to struggling families and opposes billion dollar tax giveaways to the wealthy. She opposes making the Bush tax cuts permanent, and has proposed that they be rolled back.
Promoting Civil Rights and Ending Racism

Affirmative Action: Clinton hailed the Supreme Court's 5-4 decision in June 2003, in Grutter v. Bollinger, which upheld affirmative action policies at the University of Michigan law school. Clinton noted that "for millions of Americans, affirmative action has knocked down the barriers of the past that prevented them from attending college, law school, serving in the military, or working in our country's leading companies..."

Hurricane Katrina: In a recent speech Clinton said: "And how do we say that everything is fine, Bloody Sunday is for the history books, when over 96,000 of our citizens, the victims of Hurricane Katrina, are still living in trailers and mobile homes, which is a national disgrace to everything we stand for in America?" She has also proposed rolling back Bush's tax cuts and using the money for reconstruction efforts in the city of New Orleans.

Voting Rights: Clinton is strongly committed to making sure that every person in the U.S. has the right to vote in fair, accessible and credible elections. Senator Clinton introduced the Count Every Vote Act of 2005 to ensure better protection of votes and to ensure that every vote is counted.
Advancing Health Care for All

Universal Healthcare: Campaigning in Iowa, Clinton declared that "We're going to have universal health care when I'm president — there is no doubt about that. We're going to get it done."

Health Care Access: Clinton has worked for decades to improve our nation's health care delivery system and to provide everyone with access to health coverage. Clinton's efforts have been public, focused and determined, making her the object of the insurance industry's smear campaign.

Senator Clinton has introduced legislation to strengthen Medicaid coverage for family planning services for low-income women. The legislation requires states to extend coverage for family planning services and supplies to women who would be entitled to Medicaid funded prenatal, labor, delivery and postpartum care.

She also introduced the Pediatric Research Improvement Act, to allow the Food and Drug Administration's to continue requiring that drugs marketed for pediatric use are actually safe and effective for children.

Stem Cell Research: Clinton supports expansion of the current federal policy, so that more lines of stem cells will be available for lifesaving embryonic stem cell research.
Ending Discrimination Based on Sexual Orientation or Gender Identity

Discrimination/Hate Crimes: Senator Clinton has long been a supporter of laws to protect the LGBTQ community from crimes based on hate, and ending the ability of employers to discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. She supports efforts to expand hate crimes violations to include gender, gender identity, disability, and sexual orientation.

Same-Sex Marriage/Civil Unions: Senator Clinton actively opposed the Federal Marriage Amendment to the Constitution that would have banned same-sex marriage, and supports civil unions plus all federal benefits. She said, "In the end, we defeated the Federal Marriage Amendment and we sent a strong message that we will not stand idly by when anyone tries to write discrimination into our Constitution."

Same-Sex Couples Adopting Children: Clinton supports the rights of lesbian and gay couples to adopt children. "I have seen the sadness and the hope in the eyes of children desperate for a family to call their own," Clinton said when speaking of gay adoption. "We have a fundamental obligation to make sure these children have a loving home and a chance to succeed." Clinton affirmed: "We are going to make sure that nothing stands in the way of loving couples — gay or straight — who want to adopt children,"

Don't Ask Don't Tell: Clinton has in clear terms denounced the "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy, indicating that it doesn't just hurt gays and lesbians, but it hurts all of our troops. Clinton believes that the U.S. must make it safer for openly gay and lesbian military service members to safely serve their country, and to protect and provide for our national security.

HIV/AIDS Program Funding: Clinton has urged increased funding to help people living with HIV/AIDS. Although she objected to New York's funding allocation, she has urged that instead of arguing over allocation that we strengthen the overall funding to meet the growing challenge and crisis of HIV/AIDS in the U.S. "That is the real debate we should be having on the floor of the Senate," said Senator Clinton.
Stopping Violence Against Women

Domestic Violence: As a law student, Clinton represented foster children and parents in family court and worked on some of the earliest studies creating legal standards for identifying and protecting abused children. As an attorney, Clinton was an outspoken advocate for children and families, including representing victims of sexual assault and rape. Her Little Rock, Ark. home was near the local domestic violence shelter, where she spent hours talking to the women and children, listening to their stories and helping them access needed resources.

Violence Against Women Act: As First Lady, Clinton was out front in urging Congress to reauthorize the Violence Against Women Act. As a U.S. senator she has fought to fully fund VAWA, arguing that the programs of the act are critical to women being able to establish lives free from violence and its ensuing problems.

Global Protections: At the United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing in 1995, Clinton proclaimed to the world that women's rights are human rights. She stated that "it is a violation of human rights when a leading cause of death worldwide (of women) is the violence they are subjected to in their own homes and it is a violation of human rights when women are doused with gasoline, set on fire and burned to death because their marriage dowries are deemed too small."
Ending the Iraq War

While NOW PAC opposed the war vote in 2002, Clinton's vote was the same as every other candidate who was in the Senate at that time, all of whom were misled by the new president and by his secretary of state, Colin Powell. At the time Clinton was vocal in her conviction that international pressure and diplomacy was the correct U.S. response.

Clinton has said that she would have voted differently if she had known the information provided to senators were lies, and has offered legislation that would end the Iraq occupation while recognizing the need to help stabilize Iraq through political, diplomatic and limited military involvement. That legislation would, according to the Washington Post, "cap troop levels, start a phased withdrawal, and cut off Iraqi security funding under some circumstances."

Clinton's experience in the White House and the Senate, coupled with her political understanding and personal relationships with world leaders, affords her the credibility to bring different factions (and other world nations) together as part of a political and diplomatic effort to produce a well-reasoned strategy to end the war. Clinton has said that if elected president she will end the Iraq war, and we will expect her to do no less.

Link:
http://www.nowpacs.org/2008/hillary/issues.html

[motocicleta]

120. Very well written piece in support of HRC.

It appears to list an awful lot of things she supports but she is on the losing side, though. All good Democratic presidential hopeful stuff, I'm glad she is endorsed by NOW and I am sure she would be a great leader for women, but I don't believe she can win a presidential election. Also, I am not sure it would change Manny's mind. Definitely not mine. Her lukewarm opposition to the Iraq War, Alito, and the stolen election in 2004 make her not viable for my support. I'd like a leader who is willing to get their hands dirty in pursuit of good. I will also repeat: I don't like any of these smarmy bastards very much. I'd like to be able to support a seriously great candidate in this time of crisis (Gandhi,Martin Luther King, etc.), and I don't mind nagging about the options before the nomination. Once that is over, though, I will line my ass up behind the nom, whoever it is.