I'm so sick of this Draft talk.

[slick8790]

I'm 17, soon to be 18. The idea that some of you here, on one of the most liberal message boards on the internet, want to send me and my peers off in to George Bush's war to make a point is absurd. Sure, it'll get people protesting. But what about in the meantime, while my friends and I are getting shot at in Baghdad? As I said in another thread on this topic, if there is a draft, the first time a single draftee dies, all of you who supported it to try and "force people to protest" have blood on your hands. I'll be damned if i'm going off to fight in a war so that ANYONE can prove a point, be it GWB or Charlie Rangel.

[TomInTib]

1. Do not complete the Selective Service forms.

Neither of my sons did and nothing ever happened.

[slick8790]

3. If it comes down to it, that's what I may do.

But I want to live in a country where I don't have to break the law (even if there's no consequences for it) to do the right thing.

[TreasonousBastard]

10. That would be a very big mistake because...

if you do not register for the draft you will be cut off from jobs, education, and many other things that involve Federal funding, sometimes even state funding.

If there is a draft, they will find you and there is a good chance you will be first to be called, after a little criminal court action.

You can set yourself up to be a conscientious objector, but it is not that easy. The details are at www.objector.org

Yes, registering for the draft is a hassle, unfair in several ways, and just plain sucks rocks, but it must be done because the alternatives are simply not worth it.

[slick8790]

15. I did not realize this.

But recently i've been reading up on the laws. I believe it said that it's only illegal if the government can prove that you were knowledgable that you needed to register and willfully didn't. According to wikipedia, from 1980 to 1986 there were only 20 indictments, and 19 were self-reported non-registration.

[TreasonousBastard]

23. Forget Wikipedia and the criminal aspects...

http://www.objector.org/conscription/not-register.html

has pretty much the full story.

There are a number of legitimate ways to get out of a draft if there is one (with a slim chance of one actually happening) and Conscientious Objection is one of the better ways. Dig around that site, and

http://www.afsc.org/youthmil/default.htm

for more on conscientious objection and how to be a Conscientious Objector.

[Extend a Hand]

54. Selective service registration is required in order

to get a driver's license or license renewal for young men 18-25 in OH

Also, young men that do not register are ineligible for any financial aid. If someone manages to make it to 25 without registering, they are forever barred from holding a federal job.

[TomInTib]

18. It has never affected either of my sons.

They are now 25 and 27.

Neither of them had SSN until they turned 21, either.

Screw all that Federal crap.

Registering with SS was the worst mistake I ever made.

If I had to do it all over again, I would take my chances because the Feds rarely "get their man".

Back in the day, we would throw huge parties for anyone who was the target of a Federal warrant. That usually meant they would never be caught.

[TreasonousBastard]

26. So far it hasn't, but are you really sure it will never affect them?

[TomInTib]

33. Who knows?

They decided to take their chances, knowing full well the possible consequences.

As children, they were exposed to a lot of my crazy buddies who were made crazy in SE Asia.

[rockymountaindem]

22. It's probably too late for you to do that anyway

if you didn't opt out of your school giving the military your personal information as required under No Child Left Behind. I tried to sign up for the Selective Service by going to the US consulate in Toronto, where I was going to school at the time. I went down there the day after my 18th birthday, feeling fine and patriotic, only to find out that the consulate closes at 1pm! When I called my parents to relate my story, they told me "oh yeah, you got some mail from the selective service saying you're already registered". So, I was signed up, as were all my American friends I spoke with it about, without doing anything at all.

[Justyce]

4. Do they now require girls to complete it too?

I know when I was 18, only the boys had to, but there was talk of it changing. I ask because I have a teenage daughter...

[TreasonousBastard]

13. No. There was a discrimination case...

brought over that, but the Supreme Court said it was not discriminatory to draft, or at least register, men only.

[uppityperson]

6. School funding. Only reason mine did was for grants/loans.

If you don't have to get higher education funding, don't. Edited to add, I too disagree with those who say a draft will end the war and am fighting for no draft.

[TreasonousBastard]

17. That is an incredibly bad idea, because...

of something called the Solomon Amendments which are sitting there waiting for them and pulling just about every penny of Federal and some state funds away from guys who don't register.

They have, I think, until age 26 to register. If they do not, they will not be eligible for any federal or many state jobs, education loans or grants, maybe not even federally insured mortgages, and lots of other stuff.

Considering that those who don't register will likely be found and drafted anyway, and will likely find themselves in places the military reserves for people it doesn't like, it makes absolutely no sense not to hold one's nose and register.

[Hippo_Tron]

50. I didn't either, I was automatically registered when I registered to vote

[TomInTib]

53. Gotta watch that, too.

Voter registration automatically places one on jury rolls here.

That's why I do not vote (I live in Marin County, which votes pretty much the Dem ticket and my vote would just be one more).

[Hippo_Tron]

55. I'm honestly not worried about it, I'm considering applying to work for the CIA

And not doing it would make that impossible. I don't see a draft in the near future.

[frogcycle]

58. and lord knows

serving on a jury is an imposition none of us should have to endure

[Nutmegger]

61. I had no choice -

It's the only way to get federal loans.

And believe me, with rising tuition I need student loans.

[Lint Head]

2. You either volunteer to die for your country or

you are drafted and forced to die for your country. Right now you volunteer. We must Raise Hell with Congress not to do this. I have a 16 year old son and he will not die for this fool in the White House. :dem:

[welshTerrier2]

5. they are not "dying for their country"

they may be noble and they may believe they are "dying for their country."

they aren't. they are dying for Exxon/Mobil and they are dying for Chevron and they are dying for Boeing and the whole military industrial complex.

I have no kids. When they come for yours, I will stand with you to fight them.

[Hutchewon]

7. I am 59 and I agree with you.

The draft is just involuntary servitude. It is un american and immoral. There is no place for a draft in a democracy. It is just another tool to be used by the powerful to get the less powerful to go fight their battles for them. As prime examples, I would submit our current pretender to the presidency and his assistant, Mr. Cheney. Anybody who thinks this time will be different is just be naive.

The reason some people like it is they believe it will force someone else to go so they will not have to go. They may say they don't think that, but that is really what they are thinking.

Those who would use the draft as a political tool are just behaving like Republicans in my opinion. Dishonesty is what got us in this tremendous mess we are in and more dishonesty is not going to help.

[Desertrose]

8. It shouldn't ever be necessary for kids to be drafted to make a point.

EVER

I agree...why all this talk of the draft on this board....and why so many are FOR it is beyond me.

slick8790, I really pray that you never have to face a draft....that neither my own or any one elses kids will either.

Peace
DR

[Bobbieo]

12. The inevitability of the draft is probably the ONE thing

that will end our involvement in Iraq! It sure will move people to ACTION!!!

[Desertrose]

21. Before how many MORE have to die?!

Are YOU willing to send your child or go yourself just to "end our involvement"?

We should be in action over all the crap bush has already done. If people have sat on their asses thus far, considering all our rights have been removed, what makes you think they'll pitch a fit about the draft...or enough to make a difference? or that we will be allowed to even take action?



Seems to me there are better ways to end our *involvement* than giving up our children.

DR

[Bobbieo]

28. My grandson is over there now. The threat of a draft will get people

off their dead asses and MOVE. They sure as hell will take to the streets just like in the 60's and let their Congresspeople how how they feel.

[Desertrose]

31. Sorry to hear that, Bobbieo

May your grandson stay safe!!! :hug:

I sure as hell hope you are right about folks finally gettin off their asses...but I also hope it doesn't have to get to that point, ya know?

Peace
DR

[AndyTiedye]

32. Congress Knows How We Feel

They seem to be under some sort of duress.

A draft will make people even more unhappy, of course, but what effect will that have?

If DEMOCRATS pass a draft, Democrats will be blamed for it!

[THUNDER HANDS]

9. it's probably inevitable

the way things are going in this country.

[MissMarple]

11. My son is 20, and these incompetents want to "draft" him?

"Shanghai" is more like it. Charlie Rangel brought this up first, trying to get the American people's attention as to how serious this war could become. We are way passed that and into how disastrous this war is and how stressed our military is. If the draft is seriously put on the table, I don't think the American people will stand for it. George is truly between a rock and a hard place and there is no escape. Unless, of course, he runs to Argentina. How, bizarrely, apropos. (Jenna was reported to have been in Argentina checking out fabulous ranching acreage. Argentina is where many Nazis fled to safe havens after the fall of Hitler.)

[Mythsaje]

14. The last time it came up I warred with other DUers over it

for days.

I'm completely opposed to it and there is nothing anyone can do to change my mind.

[valerief]

16. Go into the priesthood until you feel safe enough to join the real world. nt

[slick8790]

19. EXCUSE ME?

Are you insulting me for not wanting to be shipped off for the Bush regime's war?

[valerief]

20. No, I'm recommending the only safe way to avoid being drafted. Unless, of

course, you're a senator's son. Or you want to leave the country.

I'm being serious.

[jimshoes]

24. I was in a situation similar to yours

but when I was 18 my number actually was in that lottery hopper. I didn't like the fact that I could be yanked away from my life to fight in Viet Nam to defeat the commies, (they were going to take over the world you know or so we were told) but the only way that shit changed was when half the country said fuck this and made their voices heard. It wasn't about lobbying our politicians, we had neither the money or the connections it was about protesting in the streets and on campuses. People got arrested all the time. Are you willing to do that? Do not take this post as me belittling you, that is not my intent. As it was back in the 60's and 70's, the only time people took notice was when people marched en masse and as rock headed stubborn as bush is it will take all that and then some for policy to bend to the people's will.

If the talk of draft can get the ball rolling and get young folks active, that is a start. Oh and I will be right there with you in opposition to the draft.

P.S. The U.S. military had the good sense to assign me a high number back in 1971. Many who were called did what was expected of them at the time and served, others did what their consciences dictated and refused. I do not want to see a generation of young men and women wasted to make life a little more cushy for the likes of deadeye and junior. Get vocal, get active, its your ass, but remember, I am a kindred spirit, not your foe.

[mahina]

25. A couple of things.

I don't spend much time online so you might not have seen my responses to those posts, but I agree with you. After all we've been through supporting my Dad through his depression and severe ptsd after volunteering to go to Vietnam, there is no way in hell those bastards are getting their hands on my son. (Hi Agent Mike. )

First off, if a draft is initiated, they call the 20 year olds first, last I read the selective service site. Lots of young people think that staying in college will keep them safe, as it did during Vietnam. But that is no longer so. If a person is drafted when enrolled in college, they finish the semester and then report. If they are a senior they can finish the year.

One really helpful thing you can do is get that information to your peers so the get engaged in this.

Second, you can always move. Just saying. But I am with you on this, it's easy to make theoretical sacrifices. I don't see a big difference between those on the right who are so eager to sacrifice someone else's kid and those on the left who do the same.

Aloha.


http://www.sss.gov/regisrantsbk.htm
SECTION B: Requirements for Postponement and Reclassification

POSTPONEMENTS

1. Student Postponements

College Student Postponements

A registrant's induction date may be postponed if he is enrolled as a full-time college student and his academic performance is satisfactory. The postponement of a registrant who is not in his senior year will last only until the end of the semester or term in which he is enrolled at the time his induction order is issued. If he is in his senior year, his postponement will last until the end of the academic year or until he graduates, whichever occurs sooner. When the postponement ends, he will receive a new induction reporting date.

[The Backlash Cometh]

27. I'm on your side slick.

What they're doing is bluffing, hoping the other side will blink. It's a risk that I wouldn't take on anybody's kid.

My counter-argument has always been that the right-wingers will always change the laws, or find a loophole that will protect their own, while our kids will end up on the frontlines.

[AndyTiedye]

29. They Are Going To Try to Shove it Through the Democratic Congress

They got them to cave so totally on FISA, so now they're going for the big one.

Once they have the draft, PNAC's plans can shift into high gear. IRAN HO!
http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

[Bobbieo]

34. The military is beginning to run out of illegal aliens to send to Iraq

thanks to the immigration fiasco so now, they want your kids. So shut up and get off your dead asses and move. ACTION - No more talk. Yes, I have a grandson over there, now!!!!! Bring our troops home!!!!!

[AndyTiedye]

47. Sorry About Your Grandson

Sending my niece and nephews to join him will only allow them to prolong the agony.

Congress is deaf to us. They hear only Bush** and AIPAC.

Someone has made them offers they can't refuse.

The only way this war is going to end is if they have no more troops to send.

[RestoreGore]

30. They're not getting my son either

And I am with you 100%. And some are ignorant enough to think a draft would stop this war because the "rich" would be sending their kids too, and that is a crock because they would still find a way to get out of it... but even so, NO ONE'S child should be forced to fight in this empire grab, especially just to play politics with human lives. I don't really believe anything is going to stop this war now as the pieces for the perpetuation of it have already been put into place because they have allowed it to go too far and I will be damned if I would ever support sending more of our children to die for this. NEVER.

[Bobbieo]

38. No t won;t be the rich who will bring this war to a halt - it will be people like US

Put your actions where your mouth is. So, the Democrats get blamed for the draft - what difference will that make when Bush validates the National Security and Homeland Security Directives and Blackwater takes over the country.

We've got some serious choices to make here and I hope we make the right ones so let's get the lead out - NOW!!! I can really see how the German people let Hilter take over their country if I was never able to understand it before. It is happening here, right now!!!!

[RestoreGore]

43. Again, they are NOT getting my child

And I have been protesting this war in any way I can, but GIVING THEM MY SON is not going to be one of them. And that is not about POLITICS that is a FACT. I don't give a damn who gets blamed for it, I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT.

[smoogatz]

35. You have a point. So does Rangel.

His point is that there's already an economic draft that disproportionately affects poor people and the working class, and by extension latinos and blacks (who make up the majority of voters in Rangel's district). Why should minorities and the poor be compelled to fight, while affluent white kids—even those who stridently support the war—are allowed to go on with their privileged little lives as usual? How is that fair? It's not about "proving a point"—it's about social justice.

That said, your point is also excellent: no one should have to fight and die in Iraq for George Bush, Dick Cheney, and their buddies at Exxon, Chevron and Shell. No one. Which means, seems to me, the solution is to end the war.

[slick8790]

37. I understand what Rangel is saying.

But I don't think the solution is drafting everyone. I think the solution is ending the war and helping these people who are being "economically drafted" have better opportunities so they aren't compelled to join the military as a way to support their loved ones and themselves.

[smoogatz]

42. You're right.

That would certainly be the better option. Except that it would involve a concerted effort at the federal level to actually improve people's lives--something the voters in this country have rejected repeatedly. But let's say a miracle occured and the American people came to their senses and actually decided they gave a rat's ass about social/economic justice and we eliminated poverty in this country. How would you then convince enough qualified people to join the military? Who would do it if they had other, better options?

[Hippo_Tron]

52. Increase the incentives to joining the military

And don't send them into needless wars. There were far more opportunities for advancement during the Clinton Administration than the Bush Administration yet we're having far more problems with recruitment now. Part of it is that Bush has watered down the GI Bill and part of it is that people don't want to serve in a conflict like Iraq.

[Hippo_Tron]

51. Then we need to address economic inequality

Military service should not be the only opportunity for advancement.

[bunny planet]

36. Thank you for saying it. As a parent of a teenage son, I am horrified when I

hear people say the draft is the way to spur on the end of the war. In what universe. These people are planning on starting another war, they'd be thrilled to pieces to have more cannon fodder that wasn't their own privileged children. Yes, during Vietnam, the Draft did play a role but certainly not the only role, and times and the government were very different. Nixon's meglomania was an aberration back then, now, with this crew, meglomania and the willingness to sacrifice young men and women for ego and power is the norm. It took over 50K lives being lost to the Vietnam War before the draft 'worked'. Who wants to wait until that happens this time? Anyone.

[polichick]

39. You are absolutely right...

There's no excuse for enabling the kind of criminality we've seen by this administration. Dems need to be insisting on impeachment ~ not talking about a draft.

[Iverson]

40. right you are

This is a life and death issue, much as continuing our war of aggression is a life and death issue. It underscores the need for presidential candidates who are clearly and forcefully on the side of both law and morality by taking a principle stand against the war.

I do not refer here to weaselly vacillation or critiques of the manner in which the crime is being conducted.

The Democratic Party currently has two candidates who take this clear and principled stand. They are, of course, being marginalized quite effectively.

What are you going to do about it?

[ProudDad]

41. Here's a better idea

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2950246&mesg_id=2951072

[frogcycle]

44. I am almost as sorry for you as

I am for the kids who are dead and maimed. But not quite.

:sarcasm:

[rockymountaindem]

45. What's that supposed to mean?

The OP didn't ask for any sympathy.

[Tom Joad]

46. Get yourself and your buds to this site. You Are NOT their Soldier!

http://www.objector.org/

and maybe here too:
http://notyoursoldier.org/index.php

I love their flash video
http://tomjoad.org/notyoursoldier.htm

[Timmy5835]

48. No draft until we have a new President

We are coming up on national elections and a lot in Congress want to get re-elected.

[Tom Joad]

57. yep, i have no doubt hillary will follow thru.

[USA_1]

49. You Are 100 % Correct

I keep telling these pro draft loonies that all we need is a 100 % excess profits tax as it will bankrupt those who seek to profit from war. That is all that is necessary to stop Bush. A draft is totally unnecessary but these loonies just won't listen to what I have to say.

[HardWorkingDem]

56. So then, what are doing to ensure it won't happen?

Are you and your friends writing letters? Calling congress people? What? And are you worried? How about your parents? Are they getting worried about this draft talk?

What I want is for people to get engaged. Yell like hell. Put pressure on congress people. Things like that. Oh, and the biggest thing of all - vote.

[frogcycle]

59. does anyone fucking get it

that we have 160,000 military and almost that many civilians basically trapped behind enemy lines? Extricating them will be dicey - take a year and they'll be sitting ducks as their numbers drop.

And the entire military is exhausted - burned out.

Disregarding the fact they should not have been sent there in the first place, we need reinforcements to get them out of there. People agonize over six trapped miners but don't get it that the military has been nigh destroyed by bush and his policies; our fellow citizens are taking all the shit, with PTSD, broken families, and further casualties to come.

Reinstating the draft "to end the war" is an obscene idea - but if we do manage to get a commitment to get them out, somebody has to get it done; the folks now in uniform may not be up to it, volunteer enlistments are down and desertions are up.

Despite the fact that we object to bush's assault on the Constitution and on We the People, it is We the People who are stuck with his mess and a bunch of our fellow citizens are taking the brunt of it.

[jmp]

60. "But what about in the meantime?"

I'm 17, soon to be 18. The idea that some of you here, on one of the most liberal message boards on the internet, want to send me and my peers off in to George Bush's war to make a point is absurd. Sure, it'll get people protesting. But what about in the meantime ...

There would be no meantime. The backlash would be instantaneous.

[ProgressiveAmPatriot]

62. I'm for it, but all of you who are ineligible should not really get a vote in my book

I respect someone who either supports or opposes a draft if they are eligible for the draft or have served in the military. The rest of you should not really get a say in the matter, especially if you are eager to see me die so that we can end this war faster. It's like abortion. When other men tell me they are anti-choice I tell them they do not have a vagina so shut up.