They already ignore us. Why would they pay attention if there was a draft?

[uppityperson]

I don't understand the thinking behind this "start a draft" argument. The theory is that if the draft began again, more people would protest and those in political power would listen. Why? They don't listen now? Approval ratings are in the sewer and they don't listen. What makes anyone think they would listen?

Eventually we might get people elected who might listen, after several more elections, but I am not willing to risk more people's lives and health and sanity by reinstating involuntary military service with the naive hopes that there will be no way for the rich/powerful to get their kids out and that more people being upset will somehow make those politicians listen.

I really don't understand this way of thinking.

[Sadie4629]

1. Relax

There will be no draft.

[uppityperson]

2. There may be, and there are enough people saying what I wrote to ask them to clarify.

No explanation beyond "relax". Sorry, this doesn't cut it since there are enough people, even here at DU, who are espousing the draft. I would like to know more of why they think this would help, why they think those in power would listen. Thanks for the kick though.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

16. because the rich and powerful would sudden have skin in the game

and it won't work to ship them off to National Guard units this time. The idea is that there is a bill in congress that takes away exemptions commonly used by the rich to get out of serving, thereby making Mitt Romney's sons, the Young Republican Yellow Elephants, and people like them very likely to have to don desert camouflage. These folks, like me, are thinking back to how the draft motivated a lot of folks to look closely at what was going on in Viet Nam. They then started protesting, and the war stopped.

[uppityperson]

24. Unfortunately, those rich and powerful are the ones who would craft the bill

Unfortunately in Viet Nam days it did not happen that quickly (draft, protest, stopped). Some people assume that the rich and powerful would craft a bill endangering their own AND that they would listen to protesters. I don't think that.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

29. Bill already in place

by Rep. Rangle, I believe, that won't allow exemptions. Anyone trying to put in an escape clause for the rich will be outed for what they are doing.

I know Viet Nam didn't happen that quickly. But I think the massive protests, strikes, etc, helped end it sooner than it would have.

[uppityperson]

30. 10 yrs, 50,000 dead. VietNam ended the draft.

You have more faith in the bush administration than I have.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. I have no faith in the Bush Administration

I have faith that maybe Americans will finally wake up and realize what is going on. If they don't, we're all basically in a deep deep mess with no way out of it.

[cui bono]

8. Relax. The president is in charge.

:sarcasm:

[acmavm]

3. How old are you? Were you around for Viet Nam? Do you understand

that is was the draft that kicked off the huge peace movement? People refused to go kill for an illegal, immoral war? The riots in the street by the young who saw that their government was willing to sacrifice their lives for a war that was never going to be 'won', that we had no right to 'win'.

The young and their parents have nothing to lose. Only the those that volunteered and their families. Open the field to everyone, make no one safe, or their children, and then they have to get off their quite, lazy, ribbon-deck-suv asses and take a good look at what is going on. Decide what they are willing to die for. What they are willing to sacrifice their kids for.

[uppityperson]

5. I am middle aged, was around then, saw many die/hurt for many yrs

The Viet Nam war did not end quickly, the draft was in place for many many years, with many dying, many getting injured. Many people went, many died, many were injured. Yes, I am old enough to have lived through that, have many VN vet friends, this is why I say "hell no" and why I do not understand why anyone would think that having a draft would help. Why do you think those in power would listen? They don't listen now, even with abysmal approval ratings. Even knowing how poorly they are thought of for what they do, they don't listen. What would be any different?

As for making a draft that no one could get out of, do you really think they would do this? How could you think that?

[cui bono]

9. And if they did make the draft like that, they would just rig the electronic selections. n/t

[acmavm]

10. Then if you were around then why don't you understand that without the

'hell no, we won't go' movement we'd probably still be fighting that war?

This government hasn't enacted a draft because that's the thing they're afraid of most. Another awakening in this country like we had during that time.

Oh, and finally, yep the draft was in effect for many years. It sure was. And this crew has come right out and told you that they intend to be in Iraq for 50 years. Your point is?

[uppityperson]

12. my point is throwing more bodies into the mix won't help it stop.

clogging the woodchipper won't work. Those in power don't care what their consituents think. They don't care if there are protests. They don't care if their approval ratings tank. This group is different from the LBJ and Nixon groups. You are willing to sacrifice many for many yrs. I am not. There are other ways to end the occupation than giving them more bodies.

Why do you think those in power would listen? Have they shown they would listen yet? Why do you think they would listen? This group. Not Nixon's group. This group?

[cui bono]

7. Bush < Nixon. Today's congress < Vietnam era's congress.

It's not the same situation at all. With this amoral bunch in the WH. As the OP said, they just don't care. And as I said in my other post, every single person could protest and the M$M could cover it 24/7 and not only would they not listen to the people, they would call them all enemy combatants, throw them all in one of the Hotel Haliburtons and steal all their assets.

[acmavm]

11. Well, what do you suggest? If you have the magic bullet, well then shoot

your gun. Let us in on the big secret. If they're not listening now, and won't listen then, what are we to do?

Make it an equal-opportunity killing field and draft some kids that otherwise wouldn't see one days military service in their lives, and watch them get a good does of political reality. That goes for their parents.

[uppityperson]

13. Do you seriously believe that it would be "equal opportunity"?

That these draft dodging assholes in power would pass something to make it so? Seriously?

You think giving them more cannon fodder will help? Wow.

[acmavm]

14. You didn't answer my question.

[cui bono]

20. Not knowing the correct way to deal with a bunch of amoral criminals

doesn't make the draft the correct answer. That's an ingenuous argument.

[acmavm]

21. If you don't know how the deal with them then how can you say I'm wrong?

By the way, I didn't ask you to answer my question. It's okay that you did, but I want to hear from the person to which I was responding.

[cui bono]

22. Just because someone doesn't have the answer, and who can with this bunch,

doesn't mean they can't believe one is not the correct answer. It's simple logic.

Think of an inventor. They find out lots of wrong answers before the find the right one.

And uppity can still respond, so don't worry. :)

[acmavm]

23. You can believe that, true. But so can I. And I do. I do believe that the draft

would be a good thing.

[cui bono]

26. I know. That's the point of discussion. I disagreed with you and stated why.

;)

[uppityperson]

25. Look up thread.

you questioned cui bono, I jumped in with an answer since I am OP and I just do that. Now cui bono answers and you say you didn't ask this poster? Your #11 quesitoned #7 who is answering here.

And I agree, that just because I do not have a way to deal with them does not mean that the draft is the right way. Just because I don't have a right answer doesn't mean I can't see the wrong ones.

[uppityperson]

27. I jumped in on a question to another, and you didn't answer my questions.

Do you seriously believe that it would be "equal opportunity"?

Do you think that the draft dodging assholes in power would pass something to make it so? Seriously?

You think giving them more cannon fodder will help?

[cui bono]

4. Way back when, I also believed the draft might get the people riled up

enough that everyone would have to take notice. To the point of where the M$M would actually cover the protests and without their pathetic equal time to the one pro-war person that showed up.

But now that I believe they want a draft in order to have bodies to go to Iran. Now that I believe they actually will do anything no matter how immoral, unethical or idiotic it is. Now that I believe that yes, it can get worse, I no longer think that a draft would make a difference. It would only give them more human fodder for their follies.

And I agree with you. Every single person could protest and the M$M could cover it 24/7 and not only would they not listen to the people, they would call them all enemy combatants, throw them all in one of the Hotel Haliburtons and steal all their assets.

[uppityperson]

6. Indeed. So what if people protested and MSM covered it?

That would make no difference for those in power. I would like ANYONE to show me how it would make a difference. I know I'm cynical, but I don't see how those in power would listen. Experience shows me differently.

[lligrd]

18. And The Kids Of The Rich And Powerful

will be exempt. We can count on that.

[roody]

15. I favor the draft and I favor draft resistance.

And I favor disobedience to all unjust and immoral laws. (That includes Cuban embargo.) And since we are being spied on, please say "Fuck Bush" in every telephone conversation and electronic communication.

[quoddy woman]

17. draft

There will be those who manage to evade the draft,there always are,but the majority of those drafted will serve. I think women should be drafted too. If this "war" in Iraq is worth fighting, then why would good red blooded 'mericans hesitate to serve their country? Not worth fighting for?...Well how about that! "They" haven't listened to us because they haven't had to. We are an apathetic bunch who live in fear, fear for our jobs,fear of homelessness, fear of minorities, fear of each other.We are all too busy trying to take care of our own sorry butts to realize that we are the WE in "we the people." Institute a draft and see the power of the people. I, too remember Viet Nam, hell, I remember WW ll. I don't see anything else that will unite us in righteous rage and bring an end to this criminal administration. That's why they don't want a draft. They know. Tell ya what, we better do it soon, our elections are tainted our Constitution and Bill of Rights are in tatters and obviously nothing else is going to put us in the streets

[uppityperson]

28. Welcome to DU. 50,000 dead. 10 yrs. I'm not willing to do that in Iraq like VietNam

Viet Nam ended, but not because of the draft. And not for 10 yrs, 50,000 of ours dead. Does the bush administration care about our "righteous rage" about torture, about habeas corpus, about a huge list of rights taken away so far? No. Why would they care about people in the streets protesting a draft?

[Totally Committed]

19. They wouldn't --

All the young men and women who are drafted will be is fresh blood for their Wars for Oil.

And, I mean Democrats as well as Republicans. They couldn't care less about us, and we all know it.

TC

[quoddy woman]

31. Of course they don't care about us.

So let's not cry and wring our hands . Our kids are nothing but cannon fodder and we are nothing but proles. They have spent a lot of time and energy into making us think we can't do anything about it. We have given away our power.Our young men and women who get drafted just need to stand up on their hind legs and say "Hell no, we won't go":. And they need to be supported by all the rest of us who are against this abomination. They intend to keep this thing going for many years to come. That was the plan from the beginning. We built, or are building, 14 bases in Iraq and the biggest embassy we have anywhere.I'm not willing to have one more kid picked off, one more roadside bomb, one more young person come home broken in mind and spirit,their mangled bodies and ruined lives returned to their families. Weather we like it or not, this is Viet Nam, and the only way we are going to stop it if for people to wake up and raise hell. I marched against Viet Nam, and I got my antique ass out before the start of this "war" and marched some more. As you know, we were pretty much ignored by the media. The MSM are not on our side. Gee, let's wring our hands, ain't it a shame! We won't get out of Iraq until we make it happen and that won't happen until our own lives are impacted, our own children put at risk and the stakes have been raised. I don't really want a draft, but I want us out of there, and we collectively can make it happen. And that's the only way I can see for Americans to wake up and get mad enough to fight back.

[uppityperson]

34. This is not Viet Nam, bushites are not Nixonites and there are other choices

You seem to be saying that the only choices are crying/wringing hands OR the draft. There are other choices.

This is not Viet Nam, though very similar. bushites are not Nixonites, though somewhat similar. It took 10 yrs and 50,000 deaths to get out of Viet Nam and I would like to see proof that marching helped it end. I marched then, since and now, but, especially now, do not know if it did/does anything. Especially with the cabal in power who does not seem to care about what any of us think.

I'd rather spend my energies focusing on, working on, educating on, what has happened so far and encouraging others to get involved also. We can make it happen without sacrificing more, or we can't make it happen.

[quoddy woman]

35. I think the demonstrations helped

to give momentum to the movement. We got out of Viet Nam because the American people had had it. I know I've got my Irish up, but I'm
sick to death of talk and no action. If enough people raise enough hell, we can change it. And I don't know what will break thru the apathy. Where is the outrage? You are right, those in power don't care what we think. We can think and think and think and it doesn't hurt them at all. It's what we do, or fail to do that makes the difference. Someone smarter that me once said that we get the government we deserve. Think on that.

[uppityperson]

36. Are you advocating overthrowing the gvt?

"It's what we do, or fail to do that makes the difference." How does sacrificing more people make a difference? You really think the bushites care if more people protest? They don't care what we think, what we protest. We can protest and protest and it doesn't hurt them at all. Sacrificing more of our young, protesting more about the Occupation, they will ignore, except to use those deaths to make themselves richer. No, I don't have answers, but I do know that restarting the draft, even if it brings out more protesters, is the wrong way to try to end the Occupation.

End the Occupation by drafting more young people? No. End the Occupation by electing those who will. End the Occupation by, I cannot and will not advocate overthrowing the gvt, but NOT by throwing more people out to die. Investigate, start hauling those who have done such bad things into investigations. Demand they get tied up doing this so they can't war on.

[quoddy woman]

37. Let's not overthrow it, let's take it back.

Hopefully that still may be possible if we can get a fair election with paper trails. If we can't then we must do what it takes to remain a free people. By the way, who do you think we can elect to end the "war?" The Dems seem to hedging their bets, and caving in to Bush spying last week was inexcusable in my book.

[Timmy5835]

33. There won't be a draft simply because.........

Congress wants to get re-elected.