Hugo Chavez, president for life?

[Meeker Morgan]

From the New York Times:
Chávez to Propose Removing His Term Limits
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/15/world/americas/15venez.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

CARACAS, Venezuela, Aug. 14 — President Hugo Chávez will unveil a project to change the Constitution on Wednesday that is expected to allow him to be re-elected indefinitely, a move that would enhance his authority to accelerate a socialist-inspired transformation of Venezuelan society.

--- snip ---

Willian Lara, the communications minister, said Mr. Chávez would announce the project before the National Assembly, where all 167 lawmakers support the president. Supporters of Mr. Chávez, who was re-elected last year with some 60 percent of the vote, also control the Supreme Court, the entire federal bureaucracy, public oil and infrastructure companies and every state government but two.

The aim of the overhaul is “to guarantee to the people the largest amount of happiness possible,” Mr. Lara said at a news

--- snip ---

[wyldwolf]

1. yep! People on DU LOVE this guy!

[Mend]

3. we had Franklin Delano Roosevelt for life and he saved our country...

[Captain Hilts]

6. But he didn't move the goalposts himself to do so. nt

[1932]

8. FDR did try to pack the supreme court so he could get his programs past a very conservative

court that kept knocking them down.

At least Chavez is following the constitutional procedure for amending it.

[Captain Hilts]

22. "Tried." Did not succeed. nt

[Hippo_Tron]

35. Nothing unconstitutional about what FDR tried to do

The constitution doesn't set the number of justices at 9, congress does.

[1932]

38. And there's nothing unconstitutional about what Chavez is doing.

They're following the process established in the constitution.

I was addressing the "moving the goalposts" sentitment, which is what FDR was doing. He couldn't get his plans past 9 judges, so he wanted to appoint some more friendly, progressive, modern judges.

[Stinky The Clown]

44. He never succeeded ... but packing the courts is not unconstitutional

The Constitution says nothing about the numbers on the courts.

Small detail, I know .... but .....

[wyldwolf]

7. hmmm. Chavez... FDR... Chavez... FDR...

:shrug:

[1932]

9. I've read a couple books about progressive latin american presidents

most of whom lost their jobs thanks to US-sponsored intervention. One common theme: FDR was the hero of a lot of them.

[wyldwolf]

10. ...then you (and they) should understand FDR saved capitalism. He didn't advocate socialism

[1932]

14. I'm with Joe Sitglitz on capitalism

and Stiglitz is someone else a lot of progressive anti-neoliberals respect.

Capitalism is a great way to allocate resources, respond quickly to changes in the economic landscape, and distribute wealth, happiness and opportunity -- but not when it is rigged to concentrate a lot of wealth and power in the hands of American CEOs.

[wyldwolf]

18. well, sure, and that's what FDR saved us from. But he didn't advocate socialism...

... and the latin American leaders/dicatators do... or pretend to.

[1932]

20. I'm going to recommend you read three books:

Richard Gott's book on Chavez (the second revised edition); Aleida Guevara's book on Chavez; and Kozloff's book on Venezuela.

I think, if you read those three books, you'll understand the similarities between FDR's view of capitalism and the sort of socialism anti-neoliberal latin american presidents are promoting.

[wyldwolf]

23. and I'll recommend one book to you:

It Didn’t Happen Here: Why Socialism Failed in the United States, by Seymour Martin Lipset and Gary Marks

[1932]

36. And I'll paraphrase a John Kenneth Galbraith quote:

There isn't much difference between western european-style socialism and the kind of capitalism keynesian democrats thought was right for the US once you took into consideration the need for a social welfare safety net and a little bit of government intervention in the free market required to prevent disruptive swings.

You can read that in Richard Parker's biography of Galbraith, which you can add to the list.

[ProudDad]

47. Wolfie

doesn't want his empty head cluttered with facts or truths about Chavez or Venezuela...

He wants to keep his little capitalist utopia unfettered and unregulated and certainly without competition...

It's a waste of time trying to reason with some people, my friend... :hi:

[H2O Man]

15. CCC camps n/t

[Bongo Prophet]

42. MY uncle worked with CCC. Then was a seabee in the war

That program was a big success in many ways.
Socialized labor!
Here in Texas, the best state park benches, trails, ampitheaters, etc are still in GREAT shape compared to more modern crap.

Sandstone and solid building skills that just don't show up these days.
That is sad in and of itself, the death of craftmanship.
and building for long term...for the people...and quality concrete...

:hi:

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Social Security? WPA?

Hell, people were calling him a communist.

It's the programs, and their intent, that are important. Not the labels put on them by their enemies.

[wyldwolf]

26. What about them?

"Socialism is the collective ownership by all the people of the factories, mills, mines, railroads, land and all other instruments of production. Socialism means production to satisfy human needs, not, as under capitalism, for sale and profit. Socialism means direct control and management of the industries and social services by the workers through a democratic government based on their nationwide economic organization."

FDR advocated nothing even approaching that.

[RaleighNCDUer]

27. Nonsense. Socialism is whatever they guy you don't like advocates.

Nobody pays any attention to the definitions - it's the labels that are important.

Chavez is a socialist - therefore, he's bad.
Universal healthcare is socialist - therefore, it's bad.
Social Security is socialist - therefore, it's bad.

FDR was a goddam commie - I know, because my grandfather said so. If Chavez emulates FDR, well he must be a commie, too.

[wyldwolf]

29. "nobody pays attention to definitions." LOL! LOL! LOL! Obviously YOU don't

[RaleighNCDUer]

31. 75% of the population cannot define socialism, or communism,

or fascism. They don't know the difference between a democracy and a republic. They call Chavez a dictator, when he was elected, and re-elected, in internationally certified fair elections.

All people know are the labels they've been taught to hate.

Soundbites are easy, but they are not a political or economic philosophy.

[wyldwolf]

34. uh... so? I can.

1. Chavez calls himself a socialist
2. FDR did not resemble Chavez or any socialist anyone's ever heard of.

[ProudDad]

46. BFD, FDR was wrong (n/t)

[Cassandra]

5. I would prefer he not do this.

If he is merely lifting restrictions on re-electing him, that might be ok but President-for-life is not OK. The people who voted for him are certainly getting their votes worth of services, though.

[RaleighNCDUer]

25. That's exactly the point. He ISN"T banning elections. Just term

limits. Venezuela has one of the strongest democracies in South America, and when the majority of the people want Chavez out, they will vote him out.

[ProudDad]

48. He's asking the People to remove term limits

NOT "declaring himself President for Life"...

The right-wing corporate capitalists here on DU are trying to confuse you with their Red Herrings about President Chavez.

Get the facts, ignore the trolls... :hi:

[jefferson_dem]

12. Ironic how some here can lambaste to hell one power-grabbing presidential demagogue...

while celebrating another as some sort of political savior.

[wyldwolf]

19. Funny. I'm not seeing anyone but Chavez want to be president for life

[fasttense]

2. This really looks like a dictator preparing for lifelong control. I hope

there is something I'm missing here.

[Mend]

17. I think they will still have elections and can elect someone else if they

want...better than the CIA and Kissinger.

[ProudDad]

49. There is...

"there is something I'm missing here"

Don't let the corporate capitalist right-wing spin confuse you...

Pay attention to who Chavez IS and what he does not the stinking red herrings tossed out by the right-wing spin machine... :hi:

[William769]

4. "Hugo Chavez, president for life?"

Thats what you usually ge with a dictator.

[Chulanowa]

13. Did you read the article, or just the title of the thread?

Chavez isn't going Julius Caesar here. He's proposing the removal of term limits. It's pretty clearly outlined in the article.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

32. how many 'dictators' have this

in their constitution
-
Article 72: All magistrates and other offices filled by popular vote are subject to revocation. Once half of the term of office to which an official* has been elected has elapsed, a number of voters constituting at least 20% of the voters registered in the pertinent circumscription may extend a petition for the calling of a referendum to revoke such official's mandate. When a number of voters* equal to or greater than the number of those who elected the official* vote in favor of revocation, provided that a number of voters* equal to or greater than 25% of the total number of registered voters* have voted in the revocation election, the official's mandate shall be deemed revoked, and immediate action shall be taken to fill the permanent vacancy in accordance with the provided for in this Constitution and by law. The revocation of the mandate for the collegiate bodies shall be performed in accordance with the law. During the term to which the official* was elected, only one petition to recall may be filed.
-

As long as he keeps the recall aspect in the constitution i have no problem with removing the term limits as i agree that the people should have the ability to have the president they want for as long as they want.

[rjones2818]

40. If the Venezuelans want to keep electing him

Good for Them. Notice it's a move to remove term limits, not to have a 'president for life' vote. Should it come to that, then start complaining.

[1932]

11. I think the first response to this story by anyone who spends time thinking about

the course of history and the progressive fight angainst neoliberalism and the concentration of wealth and power should be: "Hmm, this is the New York Times' spin on the story? I'll take it with a grain of salt and do my own research."

[USA_1]

16. Dictator Musharraf - President For Life

... perfectly OK with Bush and his supporters.

[Meeker Morgan]

21. No better than Bush's pals is not good enough for me. n/t

[Bongo Prophet]

39. Do Canada and England have term limits on PM? If not, should we invade them & teach them democracy?

To be "president for life" Chavez would have to run and win, and be subject to recall elections.

Amazingly, on a similar thread here on DU, our very own "progressives" were advocating destabilizing and even invading Venezuela.
Sovereign nations are so last century, I guess. Did Iraq teach us nothing?

Those who advocate interfering in other countries are also "no better than Bush's pals" - whatever choices they make, it is their right.
Unless they invade us, of course. :hi:

[Forkboy]

28. Good...term limits suck and are undemocratic.

If the people want to keep voting for the same person they have every right too.Just ask Ted Kennedy.

[slackmaster]

30. "Democratically elected! Democratically elected!"

[rjones2818]

41. Elected,

forced out in a coup, returned to power within 72 hourse, faced a recall election, won the recall election and won re-election. Pretty good run, I'd say.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[Progressive Friend]

37. The Federalist Papers opposes term limits for the office of president!

The Federalist Papers, written by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay, opposed placing term limits on the office of presidency. They have some interesting arguments specifically for this.

I always like to point this out, when Americans are "outraged" when another country considers electing their president more than twice. Considering that the three men who did the most to encourage the adaptation of the US Constitution opposed term limits.

[Bongo Prophet]

43. So they were commies then. Harrumph.

Rolly eyes for anyone who makes a good point.
"SO, you are a fool and you think Chavez = founding father! And are a memeber of the Chavez cult. Teh EVIL!"

Progressive Friend, you are a breath of fresh air on this thread.

[ProudDad]

50. Presidential term limits in the U.S.

were the right-wing response to FDR's Presidency for Life...

After ray-gun, I'm damn glad they were in place but you're right, that they were NOT included in the Constitution is telling.


On Edit: Welcome to DU :hi:

[ProudDad]

45. Do you anti-chavistas meet every Wed. morning

to figure out what your hit piece of the week is going to be?

It's amazing, the pack mentality driven by right-wing, corporate capitalist, M$M spin...

If you people weren't so dangerous to humanity you would be laughable...

----------------------------

"to guarantee to the people the largest amount of happiness possible" is a statement to fear???



How about this statement: "We hold this truth to be self-evident—that the test of a representative government is its ability to promote the safety and happiness of the people."

Or this Dictator's Statement: "We have increased the worker's pay and shortened his hours"

Or the ravings of this Socialist Totalitarian: "Monopolies and the concentration of economic power continue to be the master of the producer, the exploiter of the consumer, and the enemy of the independent operator. This is a problem challenging the unceasing effort of untrammeled public officials in every branch of the Government...We propose by law to restore their efficacy in stamping out monopolistic practices and the concentration of economic power."

Or this dictator's message: "<the opposition> proposes to meet many pressing national problems solely by action of the separate States. We know that drought, dust storms, floods, minimum wages, maximum hours, child labor, and working conditions in industry, monopolistic and unfair business practices cannot be adequately handled exclusively by <separate governers>. Transactions and activities which inevitably overflow State boundaries call for both State and Federal treatment.

"We have sought and will continue to seek to meet these problems through legislation within the Constitution.

"If these problems cannot be effectively solved by legislation within the Constitution, we shall seek such clarifying amendment as will assure to the <government> the power to enact those laws <which the government> shall find necessary, in order adequately to regulate commerce, protect public health and safety and safeguard economic security. Thus we propose to maintain the letter and spirit of the Constitution."


Oh YEAH...the mark of a dictator.

And to the republicans of 1936, FDR WAS a dictator... These quotes are all from the DEMOCRATIC PARTY PLATFORM of 1936...


Welcome to the republican party of 1936, meeker morgan...



Viva Socialismo -- fuck capitalism...

[Mutineer]

51. Code for: Dictator.

I've never understood the DU love for this guy. But he's showing his true colors sure enough.