Did I hear Dean correctly about NCLB?

[madfloridian]

He estimated all schools would be failing schools by 2013? I had heard it would be soon, but was surprised. It was while he was going through the line, and it was noisy.

I am sorry, but he did not look down and out to me. That was powerful.

[ithacan]

1. goal is to destroy public education

that's one of the number one goals of the religious right and thus of the republican party...

NCLB is one of the first things (among many) that must be immediately revoked when Bush is thrown out on his ass!

[madfloridian]

2. Yes, that is the goal for sure. I did not realize so soon.

I am a retired teacher who knows what it is about. Some of my previous colleagues, still teaching, are just now waking up to the fact.

On edit: It is a truly awful program, and I don't know if our Democrats really knew or understood when they voted for it just how bad it was.

[NV1962]

3. Um, no: that's the GOP far right wing's agenda

There are a few good things in NCLB. Let's not forget Clinton's battles to get Goals 2000 approved; part of that is in NCLB. The big problem with NCLB as-is comes down to deliberate underfunding, and a lack of corrective (not: punitive) measures and resources.

Repeal of NCLB is not only no solution, it sets the clock back at least two Congressional terms.

It's much better to fix it - and for that, we need a strong Democratic presence in Congress.

[lovedems]

5. I have often wondered in NCLB had the potential to be a good program

but there isn't a program out there that would be successful without adequate funding.

My husband used to work for the Illinois State Board of Education and would have been responsible for the database for the state. The way it was explained sounded like it had some good parts. Obviously due to underfunding my husband was laid off and NCLB has only been a failing burden on the states. Should I wonder what could have been or was this really just a program to fire teachers and destroy public education?

[NV1962]

6. In effect, yes: a program to kill public ed

However... In order to get as much bipartisan appeal as they could get, they allowed some bits in that are the chunks worth rescuing / keeping.

The thing is, NCLB isn't the only problem; English Only and its nasty derivatives is another big problem, that leads to (IMO) easily foreseeable academic failure and drop-outs.

So yes, that's why I firmly believe fixing NCLB is a major priority. There's little as worthwhile an investment as good public education.

Scr*w the GOP's extremist / fundie agenda! But: not at the cost of forfeiting an opportunity to strengthen public education.

[lovedems]

7. Thanks! I couldn't agree more. Public education is a stepping stone

for many middle and lower class children. You are so correct that public ed. should be strenghtened.

(I grew up in a very pro-education family and we all went to public school. My parents had faith in the education we were getting and all 5 of us have college degrees)

Edit: I always had a hard time coming to terms with going against something Ted Kennedy felt so strongly about. Like him or not, I think he is a friend to the middle class.

[ozone_man]

10. Are there any teachers

who support NCLB? Everything I hear is that it is unworkable, needs to be killed, standardized testing is a terrible idea, etc.

In my view, this is not the way to support public schools. It seems more likely to destroy them. If there is money to be spent, special education is severely underfunded and drains the resources of public schools.

[madfloridian]

13. Standardized testing *can* be a valuable tool.

It is good to compare a class and school to national norms for certain things. This is the extreme.

What Florida is doing now is grading teachers, students, and schools to the nth degree. The only standard is a test made in secret, and I don't think the parents can see what mistakes are made or get an explanation if their kids fail.

There is no room for individual differences and personalities. It is cut and dried. Very cold and impersonal.

[muchacho]

4. Carville

Read the new Carville book for a pretty good take on this...

[salin]

8. There is a date (2013 sounds correct) by which all schools MUST

demonstrate "annual yearly improvement" - not for the whole school, but also for each subgroup (including special ed) that shows 100% of ALL students at proficiency... and an improvement from the previous year. E.g., if a school hit 98% proficiency... then hit 97% the next year... I believe = "failing" (and start getting punative measures - such as sending a portion of their federal dollars towards tutoring for students...) Somewhere along the line - the idea of accountability - became surreal. I believe that 2013 is the date by which 100% students must hit the established "proficiency" level... or schools are labeled as failing. Given this is next to impossible (unless proficiency levels are lowered...) Dean is likely more correct than hypberbolic.

[Jax]

14. salin nails it

no surprise to this DUer.

"Somewhere along the line - the idea of accountability - became surreal."

Thanks salin. You nailed it right there. Nailed it.

Jax

[tobius]

19. that date can be adjusted, is that his argument against NCLB?

If it is, then why isn't he arguing that the tax cuts have sunset provisions?


ARENA, n. In politics, an imaginary rat-pit in which the statesman wrestles with his record.
Ambrose Bierce (1842 - 1914), The Devil's Dictionary

[salin]

20. it isn't the date that is a problem

it is the 'goals' that are only upward (eg "good schools" will fail because once they hit a certain level, they can not continue to hit "annual yearly improvement")... and the unrealistic expectation that even all special education students will test at their age grade-level. Not most students... ALL students.

Then consider Jeb!'s actions in Florida with his voucher program which is hitting all sorts of snags with financial shennanigans. In fending off these problems (with statements that basically say there should be NO oversight of the public dollars going to private schools, because parent "choice" is enough to demonstrate "success")... during which in the discussions he has stated emphatically that these schools (private schools receiving public dollars for "voucher students") should be exempt from all state testing programs and NCLB. Two sides of an equation - set up a system in which all public schools will eventually be tagged as failing, while keeping the voucher schools out of that accountability system. Nice little trick, eh? If one didn't have JEB!'s example, the suspected end-goal of the legilsation (at least from the GOP side) wouldn't be so apparent.

My discussion is not regarding a candidate or a position on NCLB - but clarification about the legisation itself. Thus I have no comment on other policy as it does not relate to what I am writing.

Back to NCLB, there are several grounds upon which (beyond the 'surreal' morphing of the accountability movement (of which there are merits)) I think that it will be challenged, changed or possibly struck down as extending beyond the consititutional authority of the federal government in terms of dictating aspects of education (which is devolved to state authority constitutionally). I expect there to be more state challenges (such as the case in Utah) relating to the funding (they assert that it costs more to run, than is received in total federal dollars - which is the stick - that those dollars would be lost to those not participating)... and over time I expect even more core challenges to the program. I don't expect it to be intact in 2013. However, I could be wrong. And if I am wrong - expect radical changes in public education.

[tobius]

23. thanks, another reason I'm looking forward to Kerry's plan to tweak. n/t

Elections belong to the people. It is their decision. If they decide to turn their back on the fire and burn their behinds, then they will just have to sit on their blisters.
Abraham Lincoln

[milkyway]

9. Yes, that's what he said, and he's right. It's impossible for a school

to continually improve. When I first heard about NCLB, I thought I must be misunderstanding something. There's no way they would pass a bill like this that almost guarantees every school to eventually be labeled a failed school.

[madfloridian]

12. In Florida, our A schools can not keep being A schools.

There is no way to go higher than an A. So no matter what an A school does, it will most likely drop a letter or two just because of the demographics changing.

BUT if a school does not improve, they are a failure. Is that just Florida or is that countrywide now.

[GRClarkesq]

11. The eventual Dem candidate should

use issue of underfunding, but stay away from trying to repeal of NLCB.

[maxanne]

15. horse hockey

NCLB is a disaster, and should be dealt with as such.

One of our local elementary schools - a school that's won awards for excellence nearly failed to meet NCLB standards because there was a flu epidemic and 4 kids were absent on testing day.

It's absolutely a part of the plan to eliminate public education, and further the right wing goal of education being the province of the wealthy. Teaching to the test isn't teaching.

I heard a neocon at a seminar recently suggest we cut public ed at 8th grade. After all, if the kid's gonna flip burger's for a living, what's the point of anything further? By 8th grade they know how to read and do basic math - anything else is gilding the lily. Let's just say the neocon didn't get a warm welcome.

[lovedems]

16. That happened to one of our local schools as well. It isn't a great

school, but it isn't a terrible school either.

Instead of nearly failing, it did fail because some kids were sick on test day. The administrators of the school are fighting it. It was big news in our community for a couple of days and like everything else, it just dropped out of sight.

[GRClarkesq]

17. Hear me out

if the candidate is going to run against NCLB he better have a replacement in mind for the funding. NLCB sent a lot of new money flowing out from the federal government.

As politics I think the better angle is to say Bush broke his word by not funding NCLB to its full level. You change how the program works in Congree later.

[madfloridian]

18. Money or not, the purpose of NCLB is the same.

The money is good, the purpose is bad. The goal is the privatization of the public schools.

[clarknyc]

21. "NLCB sent a lot of new money flowing out from the federal government." "

Are you sure? Then why is LNCB referred to as an unfunded mandate?

BTW, my sister is a middle school librarian in California. She's deeply disturbed at how excellent schools throughout her district are on the verge of being declared as failing.

[salin]

22. May I kindly suggest

that you understand the realities of the legislation before making this sweeping recommendation? As an ed policy person, I can tell you that it is unworkable in many ways - funding is just a part of the problem.

Tell me how you expect all schools by the designated year (each year the bar raises to the absolute level -which I think kicks in around 2013) to ensure that every single special education student (that they are required to teach) will test at proficiency at the age-level grade of all regular education students? That is a 12 year old special education student, with profound needs... must test "proficient" (and by law, I believe, even what is measured as proficient is supposed to rise) for the 6th grade level - or that school - even if it is doing a bang-up great job with all of it students - is marked as failing. This is just one area of the levels set in the bill that are problematic.

By 2007, in a high school, each teacher - even in the area of specialized arts (e.g., drawing) must have the equivalent of an undergraduate major in each area that they teach. This means that a social studies teacher who teaches U.S. History, World History and Economics, must have the equivalent of 3 college majors. In very large schools with large faculties where a teacher can just teach US history, as there are enough sections to schedule it this way, this is not a problem. In smaller schools (eg very rural and small) - previously a teacher can teach in their major - and in areas with concentrations (eg 12-18 college credit areas.) For a small school this can create a financial burden - because few people have the equivalent of 3 or more college majorsl, and thus it means hiring more teachers. The areas required by law for this requirement extend far beyond core subject areas in which students are tested to subjects such as art, music, etc.

There are major flaws in the legislation. Rather than just casting it as a funding problem... the smart thing to do would be to cast it as well intended - but screwed up in the committee process and requiring major review. There is a way to claim this, even if one voted for the legislation. But to focus just on money - will leave the multiple unworkable aspects of the law in place and put in greater peril each year prior to being fixed the number of good schools that are marked as failing and thus start losing federal dollars.

[NV1962]

25. Bingo: "cast it as well intended"

This is where Senate experience kicks in favor of Kerry's (as well as Edwards' to be fair) approach, in essence:

By signing the No Child Left Behind Act and then breaking his promise by not giving schools the resources to help meet new standards, George Bush has undermined public education and left millions of children behind.

This is what Kerry proposes with regards to NCLB:

John Kerry believes that the goals of the No Child Left Behind Act -- ensuring that all students learn to high standards and closing the achievement gap -- are the right ones for America’s children. However, to date we have fallen short of these goals due to insufficient funding and problems with the law. Kerry will make important changes to the No Child Left Behind Act to help students reach high standards.

• Judge Schools On More Than Just Test Scores. Kerry believes that we need to consider indicators of school performance other than simply test scores. Kerry will revise the accountability standards in No Child Left Behind to include ways of assessing student performance in addition to testing. Under Kerry’s proposal, states will construct a set of leading indicators, subject to review and approval by the U.S. Department of Education, which will comprise part of the school's assessment in the NCLB accountability framework. Possible indicators include graduation rates, teacher attendance, parental satisfaction, and student attendance.
  
• Reward States That Implement High Standards. Kerry is also concerned that No Child Left Behind unintentionally rewards states and districts with low standards and penalizes those with high standards. Since schools, districts, and states are punished if they fail to make adequate progress, the incentive is to set expectations lower rather than higher. Kerry will work to include incentives in the law to reward states, districts, and schools that implement higher standards.
  
• Ensure the Law Works for States, Schools, and Teachers. John Kerry will also support reforms that give states and school districts greater freedom to target assistance to schools with the most extensive academic difficulties; ensure that the federal government provides funding for professional development requirements in the law; require that every single group or program that receives funding from No Child Left Behind fully complies with federal civil rights laws; and close loopholes in the law’s definition of “highly qualified” teachers.

Kerry's more broad proposals for public education, and which part of his promise to keep during the first 100 days of his administration, are:

1. He is outlining his plans for a New National Education Trust Fund that will guarantee that the Federal government meets its obligation to fully fund education priorities.
   
2. Kerry is outlining reforms he would make to the No Child Left Behind law to assure that our schools focus on teaching high standards to all children, and do not become drill and kill test prep institutions. John Kerry has already proposed the most comprehensive higher education plan of any candidate. Today, he is outlining a plan to assure every child has the skills to be ready for college.
   
3. Kerry is stating his main priorities in education – from higher teacher pay for higher standards to universal after-school to assuring discipline.

[GRClarkesq]

26. Exactly

I was talking politics, not policy. If you get too much into the details of NCLB voters will MEGO. Nothing will change the fact that federal education spending has gone up under Bush. He was trying to outspend the Dems and innoculate his candidacy on this issue.

Say Bush has screwed up the funding and implementation. Use individual examples.

[madfloridian]

24. Dean got a lot of attention tonight on this subject.

He said it simply, and people gasped. That is why he is effective on stuff like this.

[LWolf]

27. I don't know about what Dean said,

but that's a pretty accurate, if conservative, prediction.

We cannot keep raising scores every year. Even the best scores will eventually flatten out. The schools with the highest scores are the first to hit trouble, because there is less room for growth.

And, mathematically, depending on scores that compare and rank guarantees that there will always be some below the 50% level, or whatever level you draw the line at. Which, in NCLB's case, is higher, if I remember correctly. You can't have "above average" without an average. You can't reach an average without below average.
Therefore, there will always be students and schools not making the goal, no matter where you set it.

What is it about "average" that America just doesn't seem to get in relation to test scores?

We already have districts and states opting out, or considering opting out, of federal ed funds because of this law. What other red flags do we need to recognize the path to abolishing the dept of education? To privatizing education so that corporations etc. can indoctrinate future shoppers/voters young?

This isn't a brand new revelation here. It's great to hear Dean speak up.

Some of us have been saying this since before George W. Bush took office. Since California, under Pete Wilson, Texas, under W., Florida, under Jeb, and a few other states instituted the "standards and accountability" movement at the state level. The exact philosophy/programs/legislation that * based NCLB on. We've been saying it.

And listening to the crickets respond.

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