The battle is not for the middle

[penguin7]

else Bush would not be president. Bush won because he appeared more sincere than his opponent in both elections.

Certainly, Bush was nowhere near the middle in the last election.

[izzie]

1. He won because the way our laws are set in the Constitution

Not because most voted for him or wanted him. Usually in a country who try to be dem. the most votes gets the office. over 500,000 more voted for the other guy. His second try would not have been even on the books if he had not got in on the first in this silly way we do it. We all should move to get this part of the constitutions put back to a pure vote by the people. We need power to the people and not to the states.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. He won by securing the base, undermining the opposition,

then cheating.

A little more effective than the DLCs abandoning the base, reaching out to the opposition, then surrendering.

[wyldwolf]

3. he won by appealing to the center - independents- on national defense.

Kerry got more votes than any Dem in history - completely undercutting your "theory" about the DLC abandoning some mythical base.

What IS this "base" you speak of??

[RaleighNCDUer]

5. Well, maybe if the real progressives went and voted for a progressive

instead of an 'electable' candidate you would see where the base is.

Unfortunately, progressives work for the greater good of the community which means they will usually put up with less than what they want in an effort to keep democrats in power - something the DLC will not reciprocate (witness the DLC abandonment of Lamont to support a man who left the fucking party).

If the DLC loses us this election I guarantee the progressives will bolt. And when the progressives bolt, they will take the unions and environmentalists and gays and women's rights and anti-war activists with them. And the Democrats will never win another election - they'll go the way of the Whigs.

I've been voting Democratic for 35 years, and I'm getting tired of having to search for a Democrat to vote for in my own party. You are obviously too young to remember what it was like to be a Democrat before the country shifted right with Reagan. It leaves you with a warped view of the world. If you consider the DC beltway DLC crowd to be 'the party', then Nader was right - there is not a spit of difference between the parties. But as a Democrat, I don't define the party by the beltway leadership - the $150,000/yr consultants are not the democratic base. The base is me, and the guy that drives the bus that takes me to work, and the security guard that greets me as I go inside. The base is the cashier at the credit union where I cash my checks; the server with the purple hair and nose-ring who brings my lunch; the guy who lives in the basement apartment below me who I never see, because he bicycles off to work at 6am, and doesn't get back home until after 10:30pm.

These are all people who are looking for a new way, and if the Democrats won't provide it they will leave the Democrats behind.

[wyldwolf]

11. are you EVER going to define this mythical base?

[RaleighNCDUer]

13. Obviously, you are not reading my posts.

You may just qualify as the first person I put on ignore.

[wyldwolf]

14. so you're NOT going to define it?

[RaleighNCDUer]

17. READ post 5.

You are fucking ignored.

[wyldwolf]

19. I read it yesterday. Imagine! Asking for definition gets you "fucking ignored."

[Hawkowl]

24. You can't read?

He just defined his idea of a base by example. If you can not grasp the concept of the working class base from his example, you indeed belong on ignore.

[wyldwolf]

25. of course I can. Where was the definition of the Democratic "base?"

If you can not grasp the concept of "definition," then you belong back in grade school.

[dionysus]

30. classless, as usual.

[wyldwolf]

31. daring to challenge "progressive" dogma is "classless." I'll give you a shot, then. Definition??

[Malidictus Maximus]

35. Base=

IMHO the 'base' is best defined as the folks who do NOT derive their income from investment wealth, who either work, used to work or hope to work for a living and are NOT on the 'extreme' side of most of the issues. I would say typical characteristics of 'the base' are bing green, but Earth FIrst, wanting a string national defense but not an empire, wanting equality for minorities but not enforced quotas or preferences, supporting private ownership of firearms for sport and self defense despite the opinions of some who would ban them, but agreeing that some nutcases should not have firearms and some, such as fully automatic firearms should not be in most private hands, etc. I would say that the people I know who I believe comprise the 'base' realize that taxes are necessary but are pretty skeptical of 'entitlements' and earmarks'.
In other words the vast middle who spend most of their time and energy keeping their heads above water, don't consider 'class warfare' or 'racism' as operant paradigms to define a struggle, don't believe that ANYONE should get special treatment, be it 'disadvantaged youths' or hedge fund investors.
Just my workign definition.

[Desertrose]

23. Thanks NCevilDUer...you are right on!

I remember and I agree....

"These are all people who are looking for a new way, and if the Democrats won't provide it they will leave the Democrats behind."

Actually...I think the dem party left the people behind....
DR

[DutchLiberal]

7. Kerry only got that many votes, out of resentment for Bush. Not because he was better.

And certainly not because he wasn't DLC.

[wyldwolf]

10. so you don't think Kerry was better than Bush???

[DutchLiberal]

20. Yes, but only because Bush is THAT bad. And that's why Kerry got a record number of votes.

[Inuca]

21. BS n/t

[DutchLiberal]

22. Good argument!

[Inuca]

26. Sorry, but

some statements do not deserve arguments.

[DutchLiberal]

27. Again, what a great argument! And how convenient for you!

[dionysus]

29. as Jim Hightower said

the only thing in the middle of the road is a yellow stripe or a dead armidillo

[wyldwolf]

4. delete

.

[DutchLiberal]

6. MSM and DLC Democrats keep insisting the battle is for the middle, so HRC will get the nomination.

But the real battle is for 'the base' and for those millions of people who normally don't vote.

I believe we can inspire millions of people, especially young people, to vote and vote Democratic if the Democratic Party doesn't pander to the middle, to moderates or to Republicans (or Republican-lites), but nominates a truth-teller, a straight-shooter, somebody radically different on most issues instead of 'politics as usual'. That's why I think Dennis Kucinich would be THE MOST electable candidate!

[lib2DaBone]

8. Dennis Kucinich/Ron Paul Ticket

I wonder about a Kucinich/Paul Ticket? Would that work? Anything is possible.........

[DutchLiberal]

9. No, it could never happen. They're on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

Paul is against abortion, gay marriage, stem cell research and not-for-profit health care for all. He is also for more privatization of government services and leaving practically everything to 'the market'.

The only thing both share are their positions on Iraq and civil liberties, and they're both straight-shooters.

[polichick]

12. Bush didn't win...ever.

Let's not forget that. :)

[jmp]

15. The bulk of this country ...

Is center-right, not center-left. DU is part of America, but it isn't middle America.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. I disagree.

Sure, when you ask they will say they don't like leftists, don't trust the left, but most say the same about the right - everybody thinks they are in the center.

But if you question them about issues, without attaching labels, the vast majority support the left side of the spectrum. Everybody believes in fair play, an even playing field, equal rights, just as everybody mistrusts the elites, despise favoratism, and feel abused by people who capitalize on priviledge.

The right enshrines priviledge - it embraces class division and aristocracy. It is, fundamentally, undemocratic.

The difference with DU is that we are, generally, politically educated and see through the labels. We know that single-payer healthcare is not 'socialist', and even if we had socialized medicine it would not necessarily be a bad thing - except for the aristocracy of wealth that has been built up by the health-for-sale system. The uninformed will all generally agree that everyone should have access to healthcare, but they object to reforms not because of rightist tendencies but because they've been taught since infancy that capitalism is the cure-all, even if it is responsible for them not getting healthcare.

Get past the labels and the democratic traditions of this country (leftists ideals in themselves) reveal themselves.

[baldguy]

28. "Conservative America" is a myth

Perpetrated by the GOP in conjunction with the corporate media.

http://mediamatters.org/progmaj/report

Just because a lie is often repeated doesn't make it any less a lie.

[jmp]

32. The only people that believe it's a myth ...

Are people that only hang around with like minded leftists. There's a reason why left of center candidates run from words like "liberal" and "socialist" ... and it has little to do with the GOP or the corporate media. Decades of Cold War left this country deeply suspicious of anything to the left of the DLC. In fact even so called Republican-Lite Democrats like Hillary are considered flaming liberals by much of the country.

That's why I (as a former GOPer) chuckle at the Edwards and Kucinich backers. Those guys would have trouble getting elected President of California ... never mind President of the United States.

[RaleighNCDUer]

33. See my post #18, above.

It is not the positions that bother people - it's the labels. Unfortunately, most Americans can't even define "socialism", much less recognise it when they see it.

You think the union guys who cheered Kucinich at the ALF-CIO debate were all a bunch of woo-woo loony lefties? When you get past the labels and get into specifics, plans and projects and ideas that resonate with the American people you will find yourself talking about those so-called "leftist' ideas, like Social Security, Universal Healthcare, responsible financial planning. It has EVERYTHING to do with the GOP and the corporate media - nearly 20 years after the end of the cold war, they are still banging on the podium, waving blank sheafs of paper at the cameras saying "We have names! Commies! Pinkos! Socialists! Lefties!"

Some people have not figured out that we aren't buying it anymore. Some are starting to wonder, why NOT have Universal Healthcare? Why NOT fix Social Security? Why should we trust Wall Street over our own instincts - they've never made mistakes?

As just a little clue - DEMOCRACY is a leftist idea. Universal suffrage is a progressive concept. Freedom from poverty in your old age is something everybody can get behind. The idea that the people are empowered, and not just taxation units, is the basis of our constitution. Progressives and leftists are who made this country what it is - and from the beginning it has been the conservatives, the Tories, the Whigs, the ante-bellum Democrats and the post-civil war Republicans who have done everything in their power to prevent the advances made by the American left. And eventually, the left has become the mainstream, every time.

[baldguy]

37. Amen, brother!

[rucky]

16. I know you're getting roasted, but I totally see your point:

in fact, I was thinking about writing a post to the same effect. Bush is a known quantity - and wrong 100% of the time. But his actions are predictable.

The Dem leaders, on the other hand - how many times have we been duped by their rhetoric? Out of this field of candidates, only 3 of them seem sincere to me (Kucinich, Gravel & Biden...and Obama when he's not being 'handled').

Those in the middle aren't taking sides, so they go with the known quantity. They're not interested in picking one side or another. They think they're all basically full of shit, and they'll go with the candidate that appears to be the least full of shit. Now, appearing to be full of shit is different from being full of shit - this is where the Ivy Leaguers and the Beltway insiders are out of touch with middle america. No matter how sharp and right you are, if you sound scripted (even if you're not, HRC) the bullshit detector lights up. You could be saying that the sky is blue and it wouldn't matter against someone who sincerely believes the sky is purple.

Ever see those old movies from the 40's? the way people speak in public is different nowadays. it's way more informal, conversational, and natural. The days of sing-songy repitition (I have a dream) are OVER. Our culture is too cynical and too media savvy to buy it (not from the content, but because of the TONE) - even if it is heartfelt.

[pnwmom]

34. He didn't win. He stole the election through fraud,

and through a systematic effort to deny votes to African Americans who largely vote Democratic.

[sampsonblk]

36. Absolutely right

The so-called swing voters will follow the trends. Bush won by securing his base.