How exactly do you achieve "unity" without triangulation?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

Triangulation fundamentally is splitting the difference between conservatives and progressives on an issue. How exactly can you achieve consensus ("unity" is a fraud and impossible but it polls better than saying you will forge consensus) without doing this? Is there a magic way to get right-wing Republicans to accept progressive ideas on health care, the climate crisis, education, taxes, poverty, etc.? If so, what is it?

[HereSince1628]

1. Nope. You're describing compromise. That ain't triangulation

Triangulation is removing an opponents wedge issue by saying your position is the same as his

(which it usually ISN'T, but then DLC'ers will say anything to win because only winning is important, which is why you can never trust someone who is or was a DLCer because you never know when they're lying and when they're telling the truth but I digress...)

In principle, compromise involves BOTH sides moving to a position at the middle of the distance between them.

Triangulation means only the triangulator moves his position, which is how the DLC has undermined the left from having ANY leverage to achieve a compromise.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

6. Aside from the definition of it, what evidence is there that the right-wing will compromise?

More importantly, why is compromise such a sacred goal when we will almost certainly have a Democratic Congress? Why sacrifice progressive principles on the altar of "unity" because of an obsession with consensus if we can achieve the most progressive policies possible with 52, 55% of the vote?

[HereSince1628]

12. I dunno, but I do know triangulation = surrender

Sorry I didn't recoginize your bait was just a strawman you want to attack.

DUAHOTW

[draft_mario_cuomo]

14. And unecessary concessions do not=surrender? nt

[jmp]

30. And you're opposed to winning?

...

[Mythsaje]

2. Carrying (and using) a big stick?

Good question.

THEY don't want to compromise. Why is it OUR values that are constantly being compromised?

[soleft]

3. how do you triangulate equality?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

8. Sell it down the river

:(

[youngdem]

4. By focusing on issues that aren't intentionally divisive

As Michael Moore loves to point out, Americans are in broad agreement on MANY, MANY, MANY issues - the need for universal healthcare of some sort, freedom of speech, public works improvements, the need for a saner foreign policy, the need for fiscal discipline, etc.

It is just the stupid, intentionally divisive bullshit issues like abortion, flag burning, bible classes in public schools and so on that divide us, and this is done INTENTIONALLY by politicians to get you to ignore them fucking us and stealing us blind.

Unity could be achieved by a REAL leader by focusing on REAL issues on which there is broad agreement and work to be done. It would be tough because the press and the opposition would seek to drag the candidate down with bullshit wedge issues, but it isn't impossible.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

7. How do you achieve broad agreement? The only way is to make concessions to the right-wing

Why do that when we will have a Democratic Congress?

I don't agree with your position. There has never been unity in this country since Lexington and Concord. Anyway who comes to you and says he/she will magically do what no one has been able to do in 200+ years, without saying how he or she would actually do it, is either naive or lying because he/she knows this is what voters want to hear.

[youngdem]

11. There IS broad agreement on many issues

We just fight all the time about the ones we don't agree on, so it seems that way.

I am talking about normal people, not politicians. Politicians' very existence depends on pointing out and amplifying the differences so they can demonize their opponents to win a popularity contest.

We are NEVER going to agree on everything, and YES there are key differences that go back to our country's founding, when some people came here to escape religious bullshit and overly controlling governments, and some people came here to establish MORE INSANE religious and governmental rule.

However, Americans do agree in large part on environmental protection, increasing wages, improving public works, increasing funding for education, making healthcare a right, etc. That is not my opinion. It is shown in poll after poll. Politicians are just very skilled at making you feel everything short of civil war won't fix it. It's how they work.

[depakid]

5. Triangulation is just a code word corporatists use

for enabling the far right and legitimizing their policies.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

9. It is now being repackaged as "unity" and many progressives are buying it

Different name, same results.

[AtomicKitten]

10. compromise creates unity -- Triangulation is another beast altogether.

[Totally Committed]

13. I just wish they'd triangulate back toward the genuine heart of the Party

instead of somewhere to the Right of Attila the Hun.

I'm not sure we can stop the triangulation until we get rid of the triangualtors.

I'm ready... are you?

TC

[Lerkfish]

15. um...compromise is not always the best solution

look at torture. is only torturing some people a little bit, which would be a compromise, the best solution?
Just because there are polar opposites on an issue does not make the geometric center of the issue the sweet spot.

If I put Charles Manson and Mother Teresa in the room, is the middle ground between them an acceptable goal? no, because Manson throws off the curve.

Similary, the corrupt republicans are like Manson. Is it right to adopt half of Manson's views in order achieve unity?

Another analogy: if someone jumps off a cliff, and has a rope tied to their waist and your waist, is there a middle ground, halfway down the cliff that is acceptable?

no.


either pull the person back up, or cut the rope. If not, you BOTH go over the cliff.

and that is precisely what the DLC is doing, trying to throw the democrats over the cliff with the republicans already in a heap at the bottom.

[AtomicKitten]

20. excellent point on torture --

I stand corrected on compromise.

[DrFunkenstein]

16. This is why Obama is so appealing

Obama is able to make ideas that would seem hopelessly leftist and/or elitist in the mouth of Sen. Kerry (perhaps my favorite person in Washington, mind you) seem like common sense.

That's because - dammit! - our ideas ARE common sense. But instead of projecting confidence in the ideas, Democrats - particularly certain centrist ones - speak of progressive ideas almost as an embarassment. W

hich I suppose is better than Clinton-era politics, when they were simply stepped upon by our former President to promote his own standing.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

17. So you believe Obama's rhetoric will convince right-wingers to become progressives on key issues?

I doubt that. If Obama has this ability why has he not produced results with it in the senate? Where was he, for instance, during the controversial immigration debate? If ever there was a time for someone with the self-professed qualities Obama has that was it in recent years. Where was his compromise proposal?

You do have a valid point but that will not translate much into what he would do if he is elected. Another point that needs to be noted is that Obama has that appeal because he is frequently triangulating. He has done this since he was a grad student. His MO is straddling both sides of the issues and being as vague as possible. One of the most celebrated Obama stories is from his law school days. Two people with diametrically different views on an issue discussed the matter with him; both left the room thinking he agreed with them. That is amazing, although not for the right reasons imo...

[TeamJordan23]

18. He will never convert extreme right wingers; but there are lots of moderate Repubs

And, it has already been shown, that he can win over their support.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

19. How? How do you convince "moderate" Republicans who vote with Trent Lott 80+% of the time to...

...morph into progressives on the big issues of the day? How has he shown he can do this? When has he ever brokered a significant compromise in his 2 years in the Senate?

[tabasco]

21. Leadership.

Next question?

[draft_mario_cuomo]

22. How? That is a faith-based initiative. We can't vote for someone on "faith" or "hope"

[tabasco]

23. You don't seem to understand leadership.

It has nothing to do with faith.

It has to do with doing the right things consistently and convincing the unwilling to support the agenda.

Triangulation is simply pandering to different elements in an unfocused and inconsistent effort to garner temporary support. Different audiences get a different message. Triangulation is not leadership and is, in fact, anathema to leadership.

[Lerkfish]

24. exellent post, and the best definition of triangulation I've seen.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

25. You seem to not understand that "unity" has never existed since the man in your avatar became prez

Many have come and gone. No self-styled magic man is going to achieve what great presidents could not. Where is his plan for achieving "unity"? He won't tell you because "unity" requires making concessions to the very people you seek to "unite" with.

[tabasco]

26. All I can tell you is to study some history.

There have been times in the Nation's history when we were united as a people.

During WWII the country rallied behind the leadership of FDR and helped defeat fascism.

We can do it again with good leadership.


Unity does not mean 100% concurrence. It means gaining the support and trust of enough of the people to get the country moving forward and accomplishing goals. There will always be enemies of progress, motivated by greed, selfishness, and hate.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

27. You might want to talk to some eldery African-Americans about our 1940's "unity" nt

[Lerkfish]

28. I notice you completely sidestep the issue of why triangulation is NOT leadership

understandable. the DLC praises triangulation. I can see why you'd avoid discussion of it. A little too close to the bone, eh?

[Tellurian]

29. I haven't seen a definition yet that accurately describes what Triangulation is..

probably because the word "Triangulation" has been used so carelessly and recklessly as a catch phrase denoting negativity of purpose, when in fact, I don't believe that is necessarily true. That is, examples are needed. If you explore the meaning of the word with examples it's easier to understand how Triangulation works.

[Lerkfish]

31. since your candidate is a large practioner, perhaps YOU could offer a better definition

the ball seems more in your court on this one.

What is triangulation, and why is it a preffered strategy for the DLC?

[Tellurian]

32. If you're claiming it's the preferred strategy of the dlc...can you provide a link first..

or a statement declaring clearly, Triangulation is or is part of their strategy?
Let's get that claim out of the way first.

[Lerkfish]

33. LOL. do you EVER directly answer a question?

[Tellurian]

34. Of course I do..

Like you, I like a level playing field. I've found much can be accomplished if a verification and agreement of facts is established beforehand.

aside:

where is your fabulous "eye" lerkfish?

[Lerkfish]

35. still not an answer

aside: I don't know.

[Tellurian]

36. why would you have a problem with pre-conditions..

if you think you have a valid issue?

[Lerkfish]

37. ok, I'm done dancin

you win. You don't have to explain your candidate's strategies or positions.

you get what you want.

proud?

I thought so.

buh bye.