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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:50 PM
Original message
Should Obama welcome Zbigniew the Terrible's support?
My audacious hope is that Obama will say, "Thanks, but no thanks." A snip of an illuminating interview with Brzezinski from Le Nouvel Observateur follows the excerpt below.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Intro_RogueState.html

Introduction
excerpted from the book
Rogue State
by William Blum
Common Courage Press, 2000

<edit>

Consider Zbigniew Brzezinski, national security adviser to Jimmy Carter. In a 1998 interview he admitted that the official story that the US gave military aid to the Afghanistan opposition only after the Soviet invasion in 1979 was a lie. The truth was, he said, that the US began aiding the Islamic fundamentalist Moujahedeen six months before the Russians made their move, even though he believed-and told this to Carter-that "this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention".
Brzezinski was asked whether he regretted this decision.

Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it' The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam War. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.7

Besides the fact that there is no demonstrable connection between the Afghanistan war and the breakup of the Soviet empire, we are faced with the consequences of that war: the defeat of a govemment committed to bringing the extraordinarily backward nation into the 20th century; the breathtaking camage; Moujahedeen torture that even US govemment officials called "indescribable horror"; half the population either dead, disabled or refugeesi the spawning of thousands of Islamic fundamentalist terrorists who have unleashed atrocities in numerous countries; and the unbelievable repression of women in Afghanistan, instituted by America's wartime allies.

And for playing a key role in causing all this, Zbigniew Brzezinski has no regrets. Regrets? The man is downright proud of it! The kindest thing one can say about such a person-as about a sociopath-is that he's arnoral. At least in his public incamation, which is all we're concemed with here. In medieval times he would have been called Zbigniew the Terrible.

more...

http://www.marxists.org/history/afghanistan/archive/brzezinski/1998/interview.htm

Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski
U.S. President Carter's National Security Adviser
By 'Le Nouvel Observateur' (France), Jan 15-21, 1998, p. 76. Note: There are at least two editions of 'Le Nouvel Observateur.' With the exception of the U.S. Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States did not include the Brzezinski interview.

<edit>

Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?

B: It isn't quite that. We didn't push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.

Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn't believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don't regret anything today?

B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.

Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentlaism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?

B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?

more...
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. a few years ago, Brzezinski would have been scorned here. All it took to make him a hero was...
... criticizing the Iraq war and supporting Obama.
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ludwigb Donating Member (789 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. I seem to remember him on Politically Incorrect
Brzezinski spoke reasonably about the war, and Maher fawned all over him.
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:08 PM
Response to Original message
3.  If we are to be a serious party , we will have foreign affairs
members with hawkish ways. I have recently listened
to hour long interviews several on C-Span, C Rose etc.
He had some wise and smart knowledge. I think most people
will consider this a coup for Obama.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:11 PM
Response to Original message
4. closet racists love attacking him
he has a weird last name, and speaks with a strong accent. but he was right about many things, in the face of strong criticism, especially from GOP talking heads.
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Actually it's from the opposing campaigns posing as such.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Blum is a closet racist? Link, please. nt
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
5. Zeg is now concidered a giant in foreign policy and one of the biggest in stature
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Right.
It isn't that his endorsement will win Obama the progressive left's votes. It's that other voices in the party are convinced Obama provides the best potential leadership for the party.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. War is Peace. The chocolate ration has been raised again! Brzezinski is doubleplusgood! nt
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Captain Hilts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. He's really the ONLY strategist that got the Soviet Union right. Brilliant. nt
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-24-07 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
11. Better his than Powell's...
Brzezinski's at least noted for being honest, unlike that four-flushing Powell.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
12. Wow, Carter sure was a son-of-a-bitch
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Progressive Friend Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
13. The "realist" faction, just like the "idealist" neocons, also want a global empire
That is something very important to keep in mind.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Dark Ages America: The Final Phase of Empire by Morris Berman
Edited on Sat Aug-25-07 09:10 AM by Karmadillo
does a nice job of showing why our continued embrace of empire comes with hugely destructive costs for ourselves and the rest of the world.

http://www.amazon.com/Dark-Ages-America-Final-Empire/dp/0393329771/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-4046704-2011335?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1188050947&sr=8-1

From Publishers Weekly
In this provocative, scattershot jeremiad, cultural historian Berman (The Twilight of American Culture) likens America to ancient Rome on the brink. On the geopolitical plane, he contends, the United States is a belligerent, overstretched empire, saddled with huge deficits and a hollowed-out economy, vulnerable to terrorist blowback and, worse, collapse if foreign creditors finally pull the plug. The rot is cultural and spiritual, too: Americans are cold, alienated shopaholics immured in suburban anomie, each encased in a private bubble of iTunes and media noise and indifferent to the public good. Culprits include globalization, technology and, more fundamentally, the individualism and commercialism that is the bedrock of American identity. Because American civilization is a "package deal," the author considers it impervious to piecemeal reform and, given Americans' ingrained "stupidity" and willful blindness, unsalvageable. Berman's attempts to tie every American dysfunction to an all-encompassing sickness of soul overreaches, leading him to lump together serious issues like poverty and the Abu Ghraib outrages with trivialities like annoying cell phone yakkers or the "freedom fries" phenomenon, which he bemoans as "symbolic of an emptiness at the core." Often stimulating and insightful in its particulars, his indictment, like the jingoism it abhors, is too sweeping and essentialist to fully capture American reality. (Apr.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved. --This text refers to the Hardcover edition.

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JTFrog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
14. I'm not sure how to
take the endorsement. But Brzezinski is wicked smart, so I don't take the endorsement lightly. He plays an outstanding game of chess and this was an interesting move.
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saltpoint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
16. In a Constitutional republic he has as much right as anyone else to endorse
a political candidate.

He's controversial in the way you might expect a National Securities official to be but that hasn't doused his brain and it doesn't disqualify his experience.

Diane Rehm has him on occasionally and she seems not to be thwarted or intimidated by him at all. They proceed in civil conversation.

Sure. As others have noted, this is an interesting move.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
17. Zbigniew the Terrible? Ethnic slurs for those who dare not to support Her Majesty
Noted.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Welcome, Matt Drudge. First you claim "Scalito" was an ethnic slur, and now
you claim Zbigniev the Terrible is an ethnic slur. Blum's use of "Terrible" has nothing to do with his ethnicity and everything to do with the horror he inflicted on other humans. If you would actually read and respond to the original post, Matt, instead of taking a cheap shot to try to deflect attention from the terrible background of Obama's newest supporter, you wouldn't need to resort to such juvenile tactics. Maybe you should run home and play with your siren, Matt, if you don't feel up to addressing real issues.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/10/31/drudge-alito/

Drudge Claims Alito’s Critics Are Racist
Drudge reports that the right-wing is pushing back on the nickname “Scalito” given to Samuel Alito because they see it as “ethnically insensitive”:

One outraged Republican strategist claimed, “If Alito were a liberal there would be no way Democrats and Washington’s media elite would use such a ethnically insensitive nickname. Italian-Americans should not have to face these types of derogatory racial slurs in 21st century America.”

Actually, if Alito were a moderate, he wouldn’t be given the nickname because his judicial philosophy would not invite comparisons to Antonin Scalia. As the media has been clear in indicating, the nickname given to Alito is meant to draw comparisons to Scalia’s ideology, not his ethnicity:

“So consistently conservative, Alito has been dubbed ‘Scalito’ or ‘Scalia-lite’ by some lawyers because his judicial philosophy invites comparisons to conservative Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia.”

“Often called ‘Scalito’ because he closely adheres to Justice Antonin Scalia’s legal philosophy, Alito, 55, has sat on the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the past 15 years, where he has been a consistently dissenting conservative voice.”

more...
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. Have fun in cloud cuckoo land rooting for your candidate's empty campaign
And good to see the Brzezinski endorsement has your knickers in such a twist. It speaks to some very latent intelligence that exists somewhere in your being, as even you realize the respect and credibility that Zbig carries in the real world of foreign policy debate, which takes place far beoynd the thin air of the Hillbot blogosphere.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. Don't get mad, Matt. Just respond to the original post without the cheap insults.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Start thread with bad insult = Bad Karma for thread
There are better ways to rehabilitate your girl's Friday. Move on and try them now.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Why is "The Terrible" an inappropriate moniker for Brzezinski? Tell me, Matt.
Edited on Sat Aug-25-07 10:19 AM by Karmadillo
And then address the issue of the original post. You can do it, Matt. Just try.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. “Being a former first lady doesn’t prepare you to be president,'’
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Whatever, I guess, Matt. If you can't muster a coherent response, we'll have to stop
this. Best wishes.
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draft_mario_cuomo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #17
26. This coming from a supporter of a candidate who sent a racist memo out about an ethnic group
:eyes:
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maximusveritas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
25. It's funny to see Hillary and Edwards supporters attack Zbigniew
for a couple mistakes he made over 25 years ago.
Meanwhile, they just completely ignore the huge mistakes their candidates have made within the past 5 years.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-25-07 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
27. You mean Zbigniew "one of the greatest strategic minds alive today" Brzezinski? Hell, yes!
Someone who recognizes the deteriorating state of America's moral credibility in the world and the increasingly eroded national security portfolio of the county is Carter administration National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski.

Sending an important signal, Brzezinski has just endorsed Barack Obama's candidacy over Hillary Clinton's. Brzezinski is one of the greatest strategic minds alive today and does understand the need to make changes in policy today to generate different outcomes tomorrow.

Influential foreign affairs columnist David Ignatius anticipated the themes of Brzezinski's statement in an important Washington Post piece, "The Pragmatic Obama," earlier this week.

In an article just published by Bloomberg's Janine Zacharia, Brzezinski is reported to have said that "Obama recognizes that the challenge is a new face, a new sense of direction, a new definition of America's role in the world.''

Brzezinski made the comments in an interview on Bloomberg Television's "Political Capital with Al Hunt."

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/coffeehouse/2007/aug/24/brzezinski_endorses_obama_calls_hillary_clintons_foreign_policy_very_conventional
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