Apparently it's only 49 states in '08 for Howard Dean and the DNC!

[ddeclue]

For those of you not keeping up with current events:

Over the weekend the Democratic National Committee has decided to strip the Florida Democratic Party of its delegates to the national convention in Denver in 2008.

This effectively disenfranchises 4.3 MILLION registered Democrats in Florida from participating in their own party's primary and it is in no way the fault of Florida Democrats!

The reason for stripping us of our delegates and effectively silencing our 4.3 MILLION Democratic votes is because the Republican controlled State Legislature and Republican Governor chose to move our primary up from March to January 29th.

Even if all 42 Democrats in the State House voted no it would not matter because the Republican Party has a substantial undefeatable majority. The same is true for the State Senate.

No matter what we did, we could not have prevented them from changing our Presidential Preference Primary date.

Yet the DNC, knowing that this was beyond our control, chose to punish Florida Democrats anyways.

This is like getting a parking ticket because your Republican brother took the car without your permission and parked it illegally. It's not something we did as Democrats, yet WE are being punished for it

Howard Dean ran for DNC chair on the promise of 50 states in 2008. Now apparently it will be 50 minus Florida or 49 in 20088.

One of the chief complaints of our Founding Fathers was "taxation without representation". Well I will certainly remember that complaint the next time the DNC calls me and asks for a donation.

I'll have to say: "I'm sorry but if my vote doesn't count with you, I'm not going to send you my money either. I'm saving my money to give directly to candidates that I back or I'm sending it to Tallahassee instead of giving it to the DNC, the DCCC, or the DSCC."

Stripping Florida of its delegates is a surefire recipe for losing the White House in 2008. You have just told the 4.3 MILLION Democrats in fourth largest state in the Union that their votes don't count. Of the three larger states - New York, California, and Texas, their electoral votes are already safely decided - California and New York are safe "blue" states while Texas is a safe "red" state.

Florida is the largest battleground state in the Union -with 27 electoral votes or 10% of the total required for a victor - that is not safely in either Republican or Democratic hands. And the DNC has just told us we don't count and we ought to be punished for things that are beyond our control.

Shame on you DNC!

Disgusted in Orlando,
Doug De Clue

[MaineDem]

1. Sanctions don't go into effect if FL can come up with a plan within 30 days

I don't know if you've been involved in the discussion here over the past few days or not.

Most people don't understand what's gone into the Delegate Selection Plan that the DNC approved. (Including Florida's members.)

All I can say at this point is that if people are upset with the DNC's Rules perhaps they should run for a seat on the DNC. Procedures for that are in the states' Plans as well.

[ddeclue]

2. That's a nice theory...

Delegate plans should never EXCLUDE the voters - there is nothing we can do about a Republican legislature and Republican governor and the DNC ought to have enough common sense to see that - if they don't, I promise you I will boycott them and spread the word to all Florida Democrats to do likewise. They look at Florida Democrats like a giant ATM machine anyways - well guess what? Bank's closed...

If we don't get a vote, you don't get a dime.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[MaineDem]

4. Same thing happened in Washington

Their Legislature passed a law as well. They are holding caucuses after the Feb 5 window opens to comply with the Rules.

No one wants to exclude anyone.

[ddeclue]

6. Well they ARE.

[jmp]

33. There's no point in blowing a gasket.

If the DNC doesn't want your vote ... vote for someone else.

And take your money with you.

[smiley_glad_hands]

3. I guess you better work harder to elect dems at the state level then.

Don't get mad at Dean for following the rules, he is no Bush, sorry.

You should, however, be mad at your own elected officials for making this happen, dem or rethug.

[ddeclue]

10. NOPE I'm mad at HOWARD DEAN.

1) The Florida legislature gerrymandered the districts back in 1992 so that it is nearly impossible for an incumbent to lose.
2) I HAVE been working my *ss off to get Dems elected to the state house. I've gotten TWO elected out of the 8 that have been elected in the last year and have worked on others that lost due to gerrymandering in several other districts to the tune of thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours so don't you DARE lecture me about working "harder".
3) No I won't be mad at my own elected officials. REPUBLICANS made this happen, not Democrats. And HOWARD DEAN is punishing ME for THEIR behavior.

TWO can play at the "get tough" game... If my vote isn't good enough for Howard Dean and the DNC, he's going to find out that he can't have my MONEY either. It will go to candidates I choose directly instead of to the DNC, DSCC, or DCCC or it will go to the local party or the FDP. The national party can starve to death for all I care until they reverse this assinine decision.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[smiley_glad_hands]

55. Two Dems cosponsored the bill, be mad at them not Dean.

He will and should follow the rules.

[lojasmo]

59. This wasn't Dean's decision. The DNC is a DEMOCRATIC organization

Not a monarchy.

[Adelante]

5. Your leadership knew what they were getting into

You should blame them, not Howard Dean. He is the chairman and has rules to carry out. The Florida Dems agreed to the rules and later decided to break them.

[ddeclue]

7. NOPE I blame HOWARD DEAN for "group punishment"...

He is punishing ME the voter and party activist for the behavior of Republicans in the legislature in some sort of "group punishment" theory that somehow if he leans on me then I'll lean on the legislature.

Instead, I'm going to lean back on Howard Dean. If he doesn't want my vote he can't have my money.

No taxation without representation.

Doug D.

[madfloridian]

12. That's funny. Stomp your feet. Have that tantrum.

Go ahead. You sound like Bill Nelson and Corrine Brown.

They are going to sue to make themselves look like bigshots.

[ddeclue]

15. It's not a tantrum..it's a fact...

I'm not throwing a tantrum, I'm asserting MY rights as a Democrat and party member. If you don't like it, go get your money elsewhere.

Plenty of people want my money and I don't owe Howard Dean anything.

I don't have to give one damned dime to the DCCC, DNC or DSCC and I won't until we get our votes back.

And way to go Bill Nelson and Corrine Brown (both of whom are from Orlando and whom I've met on numerous occasions in the last two years.) This sounds like where my money will be going INSTEAD OF to Howard Dean.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

20. Can you PROVE your points?

Or are you just going to stomp your feet?

[ddeclue]

23. NOT STOMPING...

You are just trying to cast it that way because you don't like what I'm saying:

There are 78 Republicans in the State House vs. 42 Democrats. (Of whom I helped elect 2 new Dems who are personal friends of mine here in Orlando last year in an 16 seat shift in which we picked up 8 Democrats and the Republicans lost 8 seats.)

There are 26 Republicans in the State Senate vs. 14 Democrats.

The governor is a Republican. (Charlie Crist)

Those are overwhelming numbers and the Democrats in Tallahassee were powerless to stop the change to the Presidential Preference Primary.

Yet, Howard Dean and the DNC are blaming US Democrats for a REPUBLICAN decision.

Now that you have your "facts"... I promise, not one damned dime for the national Democratic party until we get our delegates back.

The REAL mad Floridian...
Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[CreekDog]

38. The DNC can't enforce and ignore that rule at the same time

It shouldn't say it's not allowable to have a primary then, and then count those votes anyway.

[karynnj]

8. Florida people, my local paper (in NJ)

seemed to say that the Republican controlled legislature moved the state primary up and the Florida Democrats had no choice - is this true? If so, is this a Republican effort to anger the Florida Democrats - which undersatndably it will.

[madfloridian]

9. I give up. I told you guys this was propaganda.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Believe it or not.

I warned you they were going to push this.

Florida was told at the meeting that though there was a way out for Dems in red states for stuff like that...the committee felt they did not fight it.

Believe what you must believe.

[ddeclue]

13. EXACTLY....yes...

I live in Florida.

I am a registered Democrat.

I am a precinct committeeman.

I helped elect 2 Democratic State legislators this election: Scott Randolph (House 36) and Darren Soto (House 49) (who just made the national radio address for the Democratic party by the way) and they are close friends of mine.

This was a bill passed by and for Republicans. The Democrats were powerless to stop it, even WITH gaining 8 house seats in the last year we are still vastly outnumbered by the Republicans due to some truly dreadful gerrymandering that occurred back in 2002 after the last census which protects Republicans and incumbents, often by placing minority groups in "supermajority" districts so that all these reliably Democratic votes are piled up into one district. This makes this one district a reliable Democratic district but takes all the surrounding districts from being competitive to being Republican by shaving off the identifiable Democratic voters from them.

In fact, there are more Democrats registered in Florida than Republicans by a few hundred thousand but this gerrymandering totally screws up representation in the legislature. I worked on changing this in the 2005-2006 election cycle with a constitutional amendment referendum but it was ultimately defeated or ruled unconstitutional by various means.

This PPP change to Jan 29 is designed specifically to disenfranchise Democratic voters during the primary - watch the Republicans not punish THEIR delegates when the time comes to "follow the rules" and discourage Democratic participation in '08 and to sow seeds of division as it has just done between the state and federal levels.

That said, I will not sit idly by and let the DNC take my vote away without some retribution for it. The best way I know of is to let my money do my talking for me. DNC, DSCC, and DCCC will not get one damned dime from me until we get our delegates back and I urge my fellow Floridians to do like wise and cut them off until they get the picture.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

14. The Florida Dems are spreading propaganda.

They are making a power play on Dean.

[ddeclue]

17. NOPE Howard Dean is trying to make a power play on Florida...

Check your facts - IT'S NOT PROPAGANDA.

We DON'T control the state legislature or Governor's mansion.

We HAVE NO ABILITY to set or change the PPP election date. The Republicans have overwhelming majorities.

We are being punished for REPUBLICAN actions which we cannot control.

I say Florida Democrats should boycott the DNC, DSCC, and DCCC with their checkbooks until we get our delegates back.

No taxation without representation!

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[karynnj]

32. I agreed with you last week - but this genuinely seems to be the truth

Dean is in a tough place. Many primaries have moved up which hurts the Democratic process. But, in Florida's case the Democrats are stuck. The Constitution gives the state legislatures the responsibility for defining elections.

This was likely a Florida Republican move to create exactly this antimosity. If Floida is denied delegates at the convention - it would be beyond awful and will be one of the stories for the convention - not a good one.

[madfloridian]

35. Well, I hope Florida files the lawsuit.

I guess it is hard to spin in court.

[jmp]

37. I'd rather we just ask the feds to investigate ...

...

[karynnj]

31. Thanks - this really stinks

Though I see the DNC's concern that everyone is moving up, this decision benefits the people with the ability to change the decision, the Florida Republicans. The Democrats disenfranchising the Florida Democrats for something thaey have no control over will only insure we lose Florida.

Thank you for your well written clear post here - This is not Fl Dems wanting to be first.

[madfloridian]

36. That's sad.

.

[madfloridian]

48. I found what I needed to find.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

Not trying to convince....just showing they did not tell the truth.

Each person has to decide what is right and wrong.

[xxqqqzme]

65. so keep your money - I haven't sent a dime

to either the dccc or the dscc for years....because, although they get tons of money from California, it never comes back here. I give directly to the Democratic candidates.

Here in California, we have a bunch of lazy bastards running the CDP. They have become so self satisfied that CA is blue that they do nothing to strengthen the party. So the progressives have started taking back our party (sorry to offend, but this too is a Howard Dean inspired idea) . It sounds like you need to do the same in Florida. It HAS to start @ the grassroots.

Stop bitching and whining about the DNC & do something to fix this problem locally. Stompin' only raises dust and pisses people off. Once more from my keyboard to your eyes - Howard Dean is following the RULES.

[madfloridian]

11. Hey...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Guess Florida can't be wrong? Hm....

[madfloridian]

16. As you can see, with the media on the side of the Florida cong. leaders

it won't be hard to bring down the chair and get their own in there even before next year.

We will be glad to welcome Howard Dean back to DFA with open arms...and maybe he will be able to open his mouth again.

Shame on our party for destroying the good Dems among us while the ones like Nelson get kudos.

[ddeclue]

18. NELSON IS A GOOD DEMOCRAT

and Howard Dean is not if he insists on taking our vote away for something which is not in our power to control.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[madfloridian]

19. Nelson is a good Christian man...

but he is just not interested in the majority of us in the party.

[ddeclue]

21. NO, I've met the man on many occasions - He's a GOOD DEMOCRAT

You just don't know what you are talking about.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[LittleClarkie]

24. Horsehockey

They why did most of them vote for it then. 115 to 1, wasn't it?

[LittleClarkie]

22. No, shame on you for making it sound like the Dems had no hand in this

when almost all of them voted for it, and a Dem suggested it in the first place.

[ddeclue]

25. It was out of Democratic hands... shame on YOU..

The Republicans control both houses of the legislature by overwhelming margins AND the Governor's mansion. This bill was passing with or without us. Punishing rank and file Democrats for this is beyond the pale and I say BOYCOTT the DNC, DSCC, and DCCC until we GET OUR DELEGATES back.

No one damned dime for Howard Dean and the DNC.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[LittleClarkie]

26. NO, it was passed WITH you. Overwhelmingly. 115 to 1 in the House. I call bullshit.

AND I'LL just have to go and donate in your absense. And I wasn't planning on it anytime soon.

[ddeclue]

27. And what's your point.. If every Dem voted against it would have STILL passed 78-42?

I call bullshit back..It didn't matter HOW Florida Dem legislators voted. It was going to pass anyways.

And your donations won't make up for me and the rest of Florida NOT donating....good luck with that.

Doug D.

[LittleClarkie]

28. I'm not interested in "what if". I'm interested in "what is"

What if the Dems didn't vote for it. But they did. Almost all of them.

The point is you're playing like the Dems are innocent victims here and they weren't. They suggested it, they voted for it, they wanted it, they got it, and now they receive the consequences of not following the rules.

[CreekDog]

39. dd: 115 to 1? you ought to be ashamed

here you had me thinking that fla dems did all they could to stop this and now i find out they supported it. you were wrong to suggest otherwise. now your posts go with grains of salt.

[madfloridian]

47. Look what I found.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

[jmp]

49. SPAM ... It's what's for breakfast (nm)

...

[LittleClarkie]

61. Well, if that's what it takes to get the truth out

The article was very interesting. Did you read it?

[madfloridian]

29. Having a tantrum in GDP and GD forums. Same post.

You sure must be furious.

[MaineDem]

30. People see what they want to see

Some don't let facts get in their way. Or they make them up.

Others don't have a clue what the DNC is, how its comprised, what its charge is. It's easier to complain than find things out.

I've tried...and I know you have. We don't always agree but on this issue, we do.

I'm convinced a compromise will be reached and Florida will go to the convention with a full delegation.

Now I'll stay out of it.

Cheers!

[madfloridian]

34. You might be right.

But so much damage has been done now. The feelings the Democrats here have suppressed are coming out.

The leaders are not comfortable with people who were Dean supporters and are still DFA. I don't refer to all, but to many. I have spoken with Karen Thurman by phone, she was quite polite. Polite. That is sort of how it is. They keep referring to the fact that Florida delegation endorsed Dean. But that was under Scott Maddox as chair.

Most of us are too outspoken for them, we want to do things that need to be done like doing something about soldiers dying in Iraq. It is not the style here, nor will it be for a long time to come. Several more "liberal" areas have made pretty good strides, but where I live is not striding anywhere.

This has been so upsetting because I know the truth is not getting out. It is like watching CNN and MSNBC and FOX all at the same time and feeling my head burst open.

DU has changed. There used to be a hunger here for truth.

[madfloridian]

50. Found what I needed. They were complicit and collaborated with GOP

and then pretended they didn't.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

[madfloridian]

40. I feel much better. Vindicated.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

From March

"House Republicans and Democrats passed the earlier primary bill (HB 537) by a 115-1 vote - a challenge to the national parties that are wielding threats in an attempt to prevent a nationwide race for earlier and earlier primaries."

Also from March...the DNC warned then the sanctions were automatic.

""The state can move its primary date but there are automatic sanctions," said Luis Miranda, a spokesman for the Democratic National Committee. "The rules have been adopted and we will enforce the rules."

And also there is the statement by the one guy who voted against it because he thought it was wrong.

In the comments is his "I told you so" comments from this month.

He sounded sad.

They did go along and collaborated.

[jmp]

41. Breaking News: Florida is a sovereign state

It's true. I checked wikipedia and it turns out that Florida is NOT a subsidiary of the DNC.

I know ... I was as shocked as you are.

Turns out the state of Florida doesn't have to take marching orders from the DNC.

[smiley_glad_hands]

57. You are correct.

But they still have to follow the Democratic Party national rules passed by Democratic Delegates of ALL 50 STATES including Florida.

[CTLawGuy]

58. the DNC could pick the candidate itself

in fact for about the first 130 years of the party's existence, candidates were chosen by party bosses. It is at the pleasure of the DNC that any state has primaries at all.

and if you're going to help put a republican in office because of this by voting for Dean in the GE, that would be a scumbag thing to do.

[riverdale]

42. You just made a very good argument.

I see that no one commenting agreed with you, so I have to post a msg saying I do agree. FL is the biggest state that could go either way. If the Dems win FL, they win. They should be doing absolutely everything in their power to kiss Florida's ass in every way possible.

[jmp]

43. We'd settle for just being left alone to vote.

Thank you very much. :)

[madfloridian]

44. Even if it was done on purpose in March? Knowing they would lose delegates.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

I am surprised to see people say it is ok to thumb your nose at the party then threaten to sue when they call you on it.

[jmp]

45. "I am surprised to see people say it is ok to thumb your nose at the party"

All hail the party!

Long live the party!

The party is life!


Comrade? :eyes:

[Bodhi BloodWave]

46. There is an old saying along the lines of

You shall reap what you sow

I'd say those who voted with the republicans(all but 1) are getting what they asked for, it just happens to be something different then what they expected

[jmp]

51. You shall reap what you sow

Put the trumpet to your lips! Like an eagle the enemy comes against the house of the Lord, because they have transgressed My covenant, and rebelled against My law. They cry out to Me, "My God, we of Israel know Thee!" Israel has rejected the good; the enemy will pursue him. They have set up kings, but not by Me; They have appointed princes, but I did not know it. With their silver and gold they have made idols for themselves... how long will they be incapable of innocence? ...For they sow the wind, and they reap the whirlwind.

Hmmm ... kind of sounds like Chairman Dean doesn't it? :)

[Bodhi BloodWave]

52. hehe, sounds just as much like the dems who

voted for the moving depending on which parts one focus on

Like an eagle the enemy comes against the house of the Lord, because they have transgressed My covenant, and rebelled against My law

and to some degree

Israel has rejected the good; the enemy will pursue them.

[riverdale]

53. What?

Please translate into something more atheist-friendly }( }( :D :D

[Bodhi BloodWave]

54. Well, at its core

i had a simple 'you reap what you sow' aka 'a lot of what happens to you comes from your own actions' line

or as it fits this topic, the dems who agreed with the republicans(all but 1)on the move are facing the consequences(loosing all delegations) because of their actions(playing along with the republicans on moving the date up)

the whole quote it was from was dug up and used to point the blame on Dean so i pointed out it fit the dems in question better in my view depending on which parts you focus on and how you read it

Like an eagle the enemy(FL Dems) comes against the house of the Lord(DNC), because they have transgressed My covenant, and rebelled against My law(this whole line is basicly a case of broken promises and rules which fits the FL Dems actions, more the rules then any promises)

and to some degree

Israel(FL dems) has rejected the good; the enemy(DNC) will pursue them.

Had it been up to me i'd have kept religion out but i've never been one to shy away using it if other start with it(why toss away a tool the other uses)

[mrgorth]

56. Look,

I don't have time to readd through this whole thread but isn't there a real risk of losing FL in the general if we piss people off bad enough? That's what I'm worried about.

[Vidar]

60. Between the 2000 election, Jeb Bush, the gusamos & Florida's

current politcal shenanigans, I don't think it has any right to complain.

[harun]

62. Good work by the DNC, Florida went outside the rules so go pound

dirt.

[jmp]

63. Rest assured ... Florida will go pound dirt.

And Dean is the man you can thank for it.

[hughee99]

64. Sounds like disenfranchisement to me.

I'm not from Florida, but if the Florida delegation is not allowed at the convention because of something that is completely out of their ability to control, I won't donate to the DNC, the DCCC, the DSCC OR any candidate who does not speak out on this issue.

[ieoeja]

66. Actually, DNC rules include an exemption for cases where it is out of their control.

Had a simple majority of the Democrats in the House and Senate voted no, knowing it would pass anyway, then Florida would have retained their delegates.

The Florida Dems vote was meaningless to this legislation. It would have passed without a single Dem vote in its favor. The true purpose of the Florida Dems vote was to distance themselves from the national party.

Florida Dems win. They are now no longer a part of the national party. Which means, of course, they have no say in who the national party runs for President of the United States.

The logical next move is for the Florida Dems to list the winner of their presidential primary as the "Florida Democratic Party" candidate on the ballot in the general election. While the national party should work to ensure the nationwide primary winner is also on the the ballot in Florida as the "Democratic Party" candidate. If they happen to be the same, then it won't matter.

[jmp]

67. "While the national party should work to ensure ..."

At this point the DNC would be better served by focusing their energy on a state that is still in play.

Florida is long gone.

[ieoeja]

68. I disagree.

That is the political consultant tactic that has failed so miserably over the past couple decades. We need to build an active party in all 50 states, not just in the "swing" states. I remember in one of the last two presidential elections, with Arkansas polls showing the Democratic nominee within the margin of error, the nominee decided to "write-off" Arkansas rather than waste more time campaigning there.

Personally, I think this retreat hurt our presidential nominees chances. But aside from that, it hurt the state and local Democratic candidates in Arkansas. And more importantly it assured the only message the people of Arkansas would hear for the remainder of that campaign, and these messages carry weight from year to year, was the one the Republicans wanted them to hear. Why would they ever vote for a Democratic presidential candidate when all they ever hear is what the Republicans tell them?

So, no, the Democratic Party should not write off Florida. We should rebuild. Of course, this means running a slate of candidates at the state level as well as national. But it is probably a bit late to put together a full slate by 2008.

[hughee99]

69. It seems to me that since the bill was going to pass anyway...

what the hell does it matter how Florida Democratic officials voted on the bill? 4.3 Million Floridian democrats won't have any say in their own party's presidential candidate because of the way a few dozen elected officials voted on a bill that they had no ability to affect anyway? I'm not throwing all this on Dean's doorstep specifically, he's the DNC chair and it is his job to enforce the rules. This "if you can't affect the outcome, 1/2 your delegation has to vote a certain way" rule is ridiculous. Millions of Florida Dems are being disenfranchised (in voting for the party nominee) because a few elected officials didn't make the symbolic vote that the DNC wanted.

[ieoeja]

70. The whole thing is just bizarre.

Assuming no compromise is reached then this will mark the third split of the Democratic Party that I know of. The first two were over the serious issues of slavery and segregation. But to split the party over something this trivial is inane.

I expect Florida Dems will eventually decide to rejoin the party.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

71. Should we cede 27 electoral votes to protect Iowa and NH's royal status?

FL is a swing state. How do you think the Democratic Party will look if it disenfranchises Floridians from its primaries? IA and NH combined have 11 electoral votes...

[harun]

72. I can live with 511 electoral votes, not perfect, but it will work (n/t)

[draft_mario_cuomo]

73. You want to start the election down 27-0 just to protect the royal status of two states?

The EV count last time was 286-252 for Bush. If Kerry won Florida he would have won 279-259...

[harun]

74. Somebody's got to be the first two. Florida moving it up against

the rules would simply encourage every other state to (against the rules) move their's up to get more influence.

I don't like the current primary system. I would rather them scratch the whole thing and try to make something better.