Obama's senate record is 100%, completely and utterly similar to Hillary's on the issue of Iraq

[Clintonista2]

Discuss.

[dmallind]

1. Same could be said of many issues

For all the mutual fingerpointing on DU, their policy positions are barely distinguishable.

[emilyg]

14. Yep.

[superkia]

48. Throw another Dem. candidate like Kucinich in there, how does he stand with them?

I know the media wants it to be but its not all about the medias candidates, there are others running also.

[Forkboy]

2. Forget discussing...I'm just going to watch.

:popcorn:

[PresidentObama]

3. You better share that popcorn n/t

[ElizabethDC]

4. Their Senate voting records are entirely identical, but for one vote, IIRC. n/t

[VLC]

5. What does 100% similar mean?

Do you mean "identical"?

[rucky]

7. congruent?

[BeyondGeography]

6. Hillary gave George W. Bush authorization to wage war in Iraq

without reading the NIE on WMD and links to al Qaeda in Iraq.

She also perpetuated those two myths with on-the-record remarks in the Senate while Obama was publicly debunking them.

Discuss.

[patrice]

8. Can you document that?

This is not an attack. I have not picked my candidate yet.

I just need to know whether that's true.

If she didn't read the NIE on these issues, perhaps she was informed about them somehow else; would that have been equivalent?

[BeyondGeography]

13. Sure...neither did IWR co-sponsor Edwards, for that matter

Here are some links:

http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/05/report_clinton_.html

http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/few-senators-read-iraq-nie-report-2007-06-19.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLJFujflVmY

[earthlover]

16. So I guess after Hillary's vote to start the war in the first place....

..they both voted to support funding.

But there is a HUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEEE difference!

There wouldn't be records to compare in the first place if the Senate had opposed the war like Obama did!

Too bad Hillary supported Bush in a dumb war. The difference is that Obama opposed this nonsense while Hillary not only voted for it, but still has not admitted this was a mistake....

[cd3dem]

43. to say Obama did not vote for the war is silly...

to say Obama did not vote for the war is silly... he wasn't asked to vote... it is about as silly as saying OJ is a good guy because he never hit me or killed me....

Obama wasn't in the position to vote, nor did he have anything to lose by speaking against it... I was against the war too... so maybe I should run for fricken president... meaningless...

what does Obama stand for and how is he going to get it done? that is what I want to know...

Jesse Ventura said he was going to change things here in MN by not being the status quo... what the young people who voted for him got was higher tuition... what the rich got was a big tax-rebate... what the middle class got was nothing... we were a three party state and there was nothing but fighting...

we elect a president to work with congress... not a King/Queen... he talks about making big change... how? it doesn't work that way... are the republicans going to lay down dead and go with him? of course not... they will not lay down for anyone... much as I don't like anything the republicans propose... to get anything done we have to work with each other... sometimes the truth hurts…

[earthlover]

50. Uffda!

Obama was opposed to the War in Iraq. Hillary voted for it. Not to recognize a difference between the the two is blind. So who do you support whose record on Iraq is better? Both Edwards and Hillary voted for Iraq when they had a chance to vote no. Obama did not have a chance to vote no, so that means it doesn't make any difference? Huh?

Wellstone voted no. I was there when he announced his intentions, in spite of a close race for reelection that year. I remember thinking at the time that he might have been committing political suicide with that, with the war fever sweeping the nation. Interestingly, his polls actually went up after his announcement. I dare say perhaps Hillary and Edwards would have been better off to follow Paul's lead.

However, to equate Obama's OPPOSITION to the war with Edward's and Hillary's voting FOR it because Obama wasn't in the Senate... can only inspire an appropriate word....UFFDA!

[cd3dem]

52. If I had gone to the dance, I would have asked the fat girl to dance...

Obama should stay away from it... he wasn't there... talk about what you "will do" if elected... stop attacking people of your party on the past...

as to Wellstone... he was brave and a leader among all... no one will ever fill his shoes...

"I remember thinking at the time that he might have been committing political suicide" earthlover

bingo... he lost the election the best way the republicans know how to get the job done....

[wyldwolf]

9. Accept Obama was against the war before he was for it.

[earthlover]

17. E.X.C.E.P.T!!!!!!

[Scriptor Ignotus]

54. he's for the war?

Do tell.

[Forkboy]

55. Only he's not for it.

[illinoisprogressive]

10. Hillarybots love to copy Hillary's blurring and fudging.

[illinoisprogressive]

12. What is Hillary's record on katrina. Nothing Like Obama's as evidenced in this link

http://thinkonthesethings.wordpress.com/2007/08/29/when-the-cameras-are-off-barack-obamas-hurricane-katrina-record/

[LWolf]

11. Yes.

They look, sound, walk, talk, pee, and spin things differently, but their records say that there's little difference in their performance in office.

I thought that was obvious enough to look elsewhere for the next POTUS.

Is that what you wanted to talk about? :D

[Ethelk2044]

15. Nope She was vocal pushing for the war. Her vote for the war is the total opposite.

She did not find it even relevant to read the report before voting. Too many soldiers have died because of that vote.

[WCGreen]

53. Except that Obama was not a Senator at the time...

So you can't say he was against it because he didn't have to vote...

You can't compare...

Now I understand he has voted for all of the increases in funding...

So tell me there is a difference...

If he was truly against the war, why didn't he vote against increasing the funding when he had the chance...

And guess what, it is real easy to be against something when you don't have to actually go on record...

And don't give me that crap about his speech...

It's not the same and everyone knows that...

[Imagevision]

18. Didn't Hillary simply take the comments from assistants to vote for or against Iraq war?

I mean she read no prior briefings as was stated by John Conyers in Fahrenheit 9-11.
(they never read anything)

[CTLawGuy]

19. except that she fucking voted to start the war!!!!

damn I hate this talking point!

[SaveElmer]

20. Read the OP again...nt

[CTLawGuy]

22. I did

and it's stil a bullshit argument.

[SaveElmer]

23. It's not a bullshit argument...it's the truth...nt

[CTLawGuy]

25. um no its not

if Obama had his way, we would not be there at all. Hillary gave it her cynical stamp of approval.

[SaveElmer]

26. Um no she didn't...

Nevertheless, point to the differences in the voting record of Obama and Hillary on Iraq...

[CTLawGuy]

28. I just did

she voted to authorize it, and granted, Obama wasn't in the senate, but he spoke out against it when it was more popular than Mom, baseball and apple pie.

[SaveElmer]

29. So their Senate Records are identical...correct?...nt

[CTLawGuy]

30. no,

she has an extra vote... that's part of her record as much as you'd like to pretend it was not.

[SaveElmer]

31. Spin city...

And no, I don't want to pretend her vote on the IWR didn't take place...she has nothing to apologize for...

[Skittles]

32. LOL - you are the one f***ing spinning like a top

please stop it

[earthlover]

51. NOthing to apologize for? HUH? Then neither does Bush....

...whose war she enabled.

[AtomicKitten]

21. Except he opposed the invasion of Iraq and she voted 'yes' --

abdicating her Constitutionally mandated war-declaring powers to Junior.

So did John Edwards.

Funding the war is an entirely different matter altogether. He didn't start this mess but he gets to deal with it.

Gobama.

[CTLawGuy]

24. yes how dare that obama want to make sure our troops have the proper

equipment and enough bullets while they are stuck in Iraq. He should sacrifice their lives to play a pointless game of chicken with Bush... :sarcasm:

[AtomicKitten]

27. it's funny how they try to take people down the rabbit hole

This after-the-fact faux comparative analysis is just another exercise in rationalization.

The facts are clear: Hillary and Edwards voted 'yes' on the IWR, putting Junior in the driver's seat and handing him a beer and the keys, and that's that. Game over.

Why in the hell would a rational citizen vote for anyone who has already demonstrated such an egregious lapse of judgment?

Gobama.

[karynnj]

33. Votes do not tell the entire story

Senators are only allowed to vote yes or no on each amendment and bill. It is preposterous to think the breath of a person's philosophy on something is covered by stark yays or nays. Sometimes, you can get more reading the speeches or statements given at the time to get a feeling for what they would have wanted the bill to be.

What I hope we get from the candidates is what I haven't seen from any candidate yet. I want to know what their philosophy is on when and how they would take the country to war. By making it theoretical and in the future - it is not a test where they know the right answer - as Iraq is now. In fact, what each of us here will feel is the right answer will differ. Lacking that the best I can do is look back at what they have said as various conflicts were first entered. The other thing is to look where foreign policy people I respect, go.

I don't have a real favorite now, though I am leaning to two candidates - and am still trying to see these types of things (and parallel things on the domestic side.)

[cd3dem]

39. well stated

thanks for a good post... I do not know who you are leaning toward but from your post you sound like you can see the big picture... a lot goes into a vote...

back when the war authorization was up... people speculated on the fact that dems were caught in the middle of a bind... to vote for was giving Bush too much power and to vote against furthered the republican rhetoric that dems are weak on national security... either way they lose...

now they have them stuck with... to admit it was a mistake makes the person look weak... to stick up for your vote makes you a war supporter...

the Bushies love doing this shit.... it is like "check mate" in chess....

I don't know why any democrat voted for the authorization... it doesn't matter... in reality a president should have the authority should a country appear to be a serious threat... the real problem was that the US allowed Bush to steal the White House...

[earthlover]

60. Hillary ALSO voted NO on the Levin Amendment the same day as the IWR!!!!!

The Levin amendment would have bought some time at least, waited for a UN resolution, and required a 2nd vote by Congress before authorizing war.

To me, this is even more telling than voting yes on the IWR.

There was an alternative, if Hillary was the slightest bit reluctant to give Bush the power to go to war on his whim. She obviously did not want to vote for any amendment that would slow down the rush to invade.

Wellstone voted for Levin, against IWR. So did some others. So it could have been done. Others voted for Levin and for the IWR....well, this is at least defensible more than Hillary's gung-ho dupe-fest.

[wyldwolf]

34. except what? You don't ACCEPT the truth of my post or are you a spelling nazi?

[jefferson_dem]

35. Yo wyldwolf. I think you replied to the wrong poster.

And the there is no truth to your post either.

ZERO for TWO...

[wyldwolf]

36. you're right about the first, wrong about the second.

[Adelante]

37. This is from January 2007

But it does give an overview of the similarity and differences in voting records of the top three candidates. This is very worthwhile reading in its entirety and includes links to charts.

Synchronicity:

Clinton and Obama: 93.2 percent

Clinton and Edwards: 91 Percent


http://www.cqpolitics.com/2007/01/ethanol_taxes_among_major_issu.html


On Iraq specifically:

Comparing Edwards and Clinton

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/apr/05/compare_and_contrast_hillarys_and_edwards_votes_on_iraq

Comparing Obama and Clinton

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/03/compare_and_contrast_hillary_obama_and_liebermans_votes_on_iraq.php#more



THEY ARE ALL DEMOCRATS - They vote unremarkably the same the vast majority of the time.

[yodermon]

38. Only 2 votes differed b/t Obama & Clinton in that list.

Obama voted for confirmation of Gen. George W. Casey (clinton voted against).

Obama missed the vote for "Byrd Amdt. No. 464; To express the sense of the Senate on future requests for funding for military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq."; Clinton voted Yes.

[Ethelk2044]

40. Bottom Line to it all Hillary voted for the war and over 3000 valuable lives have been lost

[Kelly Rupert]

41. And we honestly have no idea how Obama would have voted.

It's easy to say "No, I wouldn't have" after the fact. It's easy to say, "this isn't a good idea" when you're a no-name state legislator. When he's actually been in real power with the CSPAN cameras on his every word, he hasn't been appreciably different from Clinton.

[Ethelk2044]

42. He is saying the samething he has been always saying. It was the wrong war.

It was not after the fact. When the war came up he stated wrong war. Everyone would like for our memories to go blank. Mines have not. I also remember Her pushing for the war. It was the wrong war and nothing anyone can do the change the fact we should have never gone to war. She sholuld have at least read the report before voting for the war. It was putting American lives at stake.

[Kelly Rupert]

44. For a second time,

It's easy to say "No, I wouldn't have" after the fact. It's easy to say, "this isn't a good idea" when you're a no-name state legislator. When he's actually been in real power with the CSPAN cameras on his every word, he hasn't been appreciably different from Clinton.

We have no idea how he would have actually voted. It's easy to talk a good game when nobody's listening. Now that he's in the Senate he plays the same game Clinton does, and talks a very similar game.

[Ethelk2044]

46. You and I will just have to agree to disagree. IT is my belief he would have voted the same way

Like other Dems who decided to have the courage to vote against the war instead of being a spokes person for the war.

[Clintonista2]

Obama himself has admitted he doesn't know how he would have voted

Why do you base your opinion on what *might have happened*, rather than on what actually happened? Obama voted to fund the war over and over again, and he voted against every proposal that would have withdrawn the troops.

[Clintonista2]

49. Obama himself has admitted he doesn't know how he would have voted

Why do you base your opinion on what *might have happened*, rather than on what actually happened? Obama voted to fund the war over and over again, and he voted against every proposal that would have withdrawn the troops.

[smoogatz]

45. "100% similar" is an oxymoron, and the sentiment is bullshit.

Hillary voted for the IWR, Obama says he opposed it. That's not similarity, it's polar opposition. Next topic?

[loyalsister]

47. All except way back when

she had the earliest responsibility to vocalize the initiation of any possibility of it in the first place.
He never had that responsibility, and does have the luxury of more ease of opposition without it.
However, he also did not have the responsibility to consider every possibillity and ALL evidence before using a vote to endorse this war at any level or at any time.

[Tellurian]

56. We can't change history but we can plan for the future..

Obama's plan is to continue the War on Terror throughout the ME- The Bush-Cheney Plan.

Initially, Hillary's Plan is more in line with resolution by diplomatic means, than Obama's
plan of throwing more gasoline on an already out of control fire.

The War Vote as a need for validating an election vote is rationalizing the irrational.

[Prince Paul]

57. What's there to dicuss ?

Obama IS pro war. I hate hearing that jerk constantly keep saying that he's been against the war from the beginning. That's complete bullshit, cause nobody gives a shit what some nobody Illinois state legislator thinks. If he was in the senate in 2002 there's no doubt he would have voted for the war. Or else he would have kissed his AIPAC support goodbye.

[Ethelk2044]

58. I hate hearing someone trying to smear a candidate to try to get their candidate more interest

Obama has been against the war from the beginning. Therefore this post is bull shit.

[Prince Paul]

59. It's not smearing

It's exposing a candidate's lies and showing who he really is. A guarantee you the vast majority of Obama's supporters think he's anti-war. If they knew the truth he'd be finished. But you hate the truth though right. You'd rather people vote for somebody based on their image rather than what they stand for.

[jgraz]

61. The problem is not what her votes were, it's how she made them

Waiting until the last minute, not saying a word, showing zero leadership. That's my take on Hillary's Iraq record. And on her civil-rights record. She's been a follower in the Senate, often waiting until outcomes were assured before making a decision. This won't fly as president.