It's all a big joke, the pledge signing. Obama and Hillary heading for Florida.

[madfloridian]

Ok, I am going to say it.

Why did this rule-breaking over primaries come up this year? Why not in 2003? Why not other years? The DNC added two more states, diverse ones in population. Other states had the right to apply to be early. I know Florida did not apply. Why this year? Why are they doing it in a way to make it seem the fault of the national party when it is not?

Why this year?

In Florida the Democrats laughingly went along with the Republicans. I won't speak for Michigan, but I know Florida used propaganda to blame the DNC.

But why sign the pledge if you are going to campaign in the two states anyway? Why misrepresent what you are doing? This article mentions Obama and Clinton, but Edwards will be here also I imagine.

Pledge can't stop top Dem hopefuls

Don't take this pledge too seriously.

Three days after signing a pledge not to campaign for Florida's presidential primary, the leading Democratic candidates are moving forward with their campaigns here. Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama are scheduled in Miami this weekend. Then, Clinton has five events in Florida next Monday. Obama's campaign has fundraising stops scheduled for Tampa and St. Petersburg later this month.

But how is this possible? Didn't the candidates pledge to honor a national Democratic edict to punish Florida for moving its primary to Jan. 29?

Not quite.

Backers for the top candidates said Tuesday the pledge was so loosely worded, it leaves open plenty of opportunities to appear in Florida. They also believe the fight between state and national Democrats over the primary date will be settled before the vote. The bottom line: Florida is just too important to write off, pledge or not, political experts say.

"They can't ignore a state like Florida," said Darryl Paulson, a University of South Florida political science professor.

When are they going to be open and honest with us? When are they going to say why they choose this year to have an open rebellion against the DNC and its rules?

And when do we start caring about things a large state lying to get their way.

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.

Of course we didn't fight against the bill. When the Republican leadership made it clear that this was their priority, Democrats had two choices: support something their constituents support and that was going to become law anyway; or support the DNC Rules Committee enforcement of a primary system that our constituents revile. For me, this decision was easy.

Again, I ask, why did the rebellion against party authority over the primary process start this year?

I also ask why did the candidates say one thing in the pledge and another thing out of the other side of their mouth?

Democrats ought to know.

[madfloridian]

1. Are they heading for Michigan also? I would think so.

I read somewhere that Elizabeth Edwards was due in Michigan this week.

So, why sign a pledge and then not adhere to it? Why not just ignore it in the first place?

[cobalt1999]

2. Remember they are also rebelling against the RNC and its rules.

Of course the candidates will be here and be here often. Did you really think they'd stop coming to Florida or Michigan?

Why the rebellion against the RNC and DNC? Maybe it is as simple as the state legislatures of these states are listening to what their constituents want over some Republican or DNC committee decision. Expect 2012 to be even worse.

[madfloridian]

3. Why now? Why sign the pledge? Why not just be honest?

Or is honesty too old-fashioned a virtue?

Actually a Democratic governor signed it in Michigan. And I just proved the Democrats here did not fight.

So why now? Why wait until we have a chance of winning in 08 to try and undermine the party organization?

You have given me no good answers.

[cobalt1999]

9. I told you why.

The state legislatures and governors are doing what their constituents want them to do. That is what they were elected to do, listen to what their population wants. If that is in conflict with some National sub-committee rule, the people win because they are the ones who the legislatures report to...not to some National organization subcommittee.

As for undermining the party, it's BOTH the RNC and DNC rules committees that are being challenged. This isn't unilateral. There is no grand conspiracy, it's just voters tired of being marginalized.

[madfloridian]

10. Why did the candidates lie to the 4 early states? You excuse everything.

I don't.

You are excusing lies and propaganda. How sad.

[cobalt1999]

12. How did they lie to the pre-approved early states?

They pledged to follow the rules as written. If the rules are such that fund raising visits are allowed or campaign by spouses is allowed, then complain to the DNC about their rules, not the candidates for following a set of rules that don't do much.

[madfloridian]

19. It's all ok. It's just another political ploy geared to "fool" the average person.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/01/AR2007090101011.html

It's just a bunch of BS.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

5. Dean HAD BETTER ACT FAST!!

:sarcasm:

OMG!!!!

Candidates are breaking DNC rules!!! OPENLY!!

Dean has NO CHOICE but to cut them out of the Democratic Party, TODAY, or who KNOWS what could happen?!?

It'll mean we lose in 2008 but LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE, PEOPLE, this is necessary for a STRONG DNC in 2012!!!

[madfloridian]

7. The candidates in effect are lying.

I see no sign that Dean lied at all.

The candidates are playing both ends against the middle.

I am sorry and sad you think that is funny.

I don't.

[jillan]

11. Then why did they bother to sign the pledge?

It bothers me that they would say one thing and do another.

I already have a pResident that does that.

[IndianaGreen]

62. LMAO! What's next for this daytime soap? A bot meltdown, perhaps?

It should have raised alarm bells everywhere when Donna Brazile bragged that she voted to disenfranchise Democratic voters in Florida and Michigan on her op-ed piece in the Washington Post. Nothing good has ever come out of Brazile, and we should just oppose whatever she proposes. In this particular case, she supported a disproportionate and misguided response by the DNC to the voters' reaction to a situation they had created, the IA always first "compromise."

For 2012, let's ditch this nonsense of IA and NH being first, and start a rotating system of regional primaries.

[jillan]

4. Trust ~

It is important to me.

When someone tells me one thing and then does the other -
trust is broken.

[Justitia]

6. They are wrong & the FL Dem Party is wrong on this. The 2 new states should be pissed.

Here I thought we were working toward something really good w/the addition of the 2 new states and the DINOs in the FL Dem Party screwed the pooch for everyone else.

Sorry, Madfloridian, I can only imagine your frustration. As if it were any consolation, I bet the TX Dem Party would have done the same thing (constant civil Dem war here), but we're red, so our outcome is not nearly as crucial.

This sucks for Dems everywhere that are trying to build the party at every level.

What happens now?

[madfloridian]

8. Many thought the addition of new states would be good.

But most here don't even know it. And they turn it into something childish like the big state scenario.

I feel sick inside.

[Justitia]

13. They're going to have to learn the lesson the hard way. They are Liebermans of the nat'l party.

And people constantly complain about how disunified, disorganized and self-defeating the Democratic Party is - this is a shining example! The first shot in the circular firing squad, this cycle.

What is your feel of the FL DNC mbrs versus the DINO legislators?

[Colonel Bat Guano]

14. The "pledge"

You're not mentioning that the "pledge" exempts fundraising appearances. Meaning that the "pledge" itself was crafted as an exercise in hypocrisy. Florida's votes don't count, but come on people, keep those dollars flowing!

So they don't appear to be breaking the holy writ of the DNC. It was designed so that candidates could still meet with the money. Just not at free rallies.

If these candidates are violating their pledge, then following the Florida situation, Dean should come down on them hard with maximum sanctions, immediately. Right?

[madfloridian]

15. The pledge was from the early states, not the DNC

You have such hatred. Why? Where is it coming from? Why do you so despise me, the DNC, and Dean?

One has to wonder.

You sound like the Florida Democrats talking to me for questioning their propaganda.

I have a tough hide, but you have much hatred.

[Hippo_Tron]

16. Key word is FUNDRAISING stops

Candidates often fundraise in states they aren't trying to win votes in.

[madfloridian]

17. Oh, sure.

Of course.

[Hippo_Tron]

20. Look up what kind of events they do when they are there

If they are doing $200 or more per plate dinners then they are there to raise money. If they are holding big rallies open to everyone, then it's a different story.

[madfloridian]

18. This article explains it. The candidates are spinning us just like Florida did.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/01/AR2007090101011.html

I am very angry at the whole thing.

I can not stop asking myself the question, why this year? Why the moves by those two states to split the party?

Why?

[Colonel Bat Guano]

22. Pledge allegiance to....?

The pledge was from the states, not the DNC? Huh? Florida and Michigan asked the candidates not to come (and crafted a fundraising exception into the pledge), not the DNC? Explain.

I don't hate anybody, Madfloridian. I am angry at the way the DNC is handling it. I am baffled at some parts of the discussion (like in the above post, the implication that Florida and Michigan decided to do it this year to split the party -- really, really not picking up on that one). I am really baffled at the idea that freezing Florida out of the process for months and months will be anything other than a gigantic hurdle in the general election.

It's true hypocrisy to say, "pledge you won't campaign in these states -- uh, except for fundraisers, that's okay". As long as this situation exists, the media will run with it, writing the kind of stories you'd expect to see about Republican candidates ("votes no, money yes").

I know, I must be a right wing disruptor to point out that this is a massive fuckup right from the top.

[madfloridian]

23. It is in the article I posted.

I posted it because it says it is from the early 4 states.

This is a power play right now, when we could have had unity.

It started right after the 06 election with Carville's big play, and it continues now.

Why? We could have an organized party, with strength back in the states. Oh, wait, maybe I just found the answer.

[Justitia]

24. If it's any comfort, try the macro view of this problem......

The DNC's overall strategy is to gradually lessen the stranglehold IA and NH have on our nominating process, right?
The tactical plan was to add states to diversify and more evenly distribute nominating power.

Well, FL & MI jumped the gun, here. There is probably more at work here than solely disenfranchisement, as serious as that issue is.

What I suspect, is that this is going to press us into (by consequence), a national primary.

All the normal $$$ arguments apply here, everyone has to weigh that argument for themselves.

In the macro view, by virtue of what is happening with defiance in the ranks, we may be neutering IA & NH much quicker than planned.
That is being done by their Dem compatriots, not the national organization.
While the goal may be realized, it will be realized by a further eroding of party unity in the process.
Then it is incumbent to judge which goal should have primacy (no pun intended).
Keep in mind that the folks w/their hand at the helm are not the same as in years passed.

What do you think (of this macro view)? I'm open to anyone's ruminations.

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. i understand your anger about Democratic candidates campaigning in Florida

But it looks like they are going to do it anyway. I guess that you will just have to get over it.

[madfloridian]

29. I am angry at the propaganda and lies. Why aren't you?

"get over it"

Where did I hear those words before?

[Freddie Stubbs]

31. I'm happy that Democratic candidates will be campaigning in Florida

Perhaps now that the party is getting its ass in gear, the state could go blue next November.

[madfloridian]

32. It's a Pyrrhic victory in every way.

.

[Freddie Stubbs]

33. I don't see electing a Democratic President as a Pyrrhic victory

[madfloridian]

34. Look up the meaning.

Think about it. I am not the only angry one here in Florida over being manipulated by my state party.

I just happen to be more vocal than most. And where I live is filled with Democratic sheep who never question anything....but other areas of Florida do.

[Freddie Stubbs]

64. I think they are more concerned about the average voter rather that people who have already resigned

from their positions in Democratic Party.

[madfloridian]

21. Stop the play on words. Headline from WP says: "Democrats to Avoid Fla., Mich."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/01/AR2007090101011.html

Democrats to Avoid Fla., Mich.
Four Early-Primary States Get Candidates to Sign Pledge

[KaptBunnyPants]

25. When the oceans retake Florida, the world will be a better place.

They have never done anything but screw over the rest of the country. The Florida Democratic Party would pass for the Republican Party in a sane state, and their electoral votes go to the Republican every time anyway. I'm more than happy with the DNC moving to a 49 state solution if it means our politicians would stop pandering to people who will never support good government anyway.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

26. States' conspiracy

Madfloridian, I'm not sure, but you seem to be alluding to some diabolical conspiracy by the states to mess with the national party. Or something. I don't get it. If you see something really sinister here, then please explain it, you'd help your case considerably.

And yeah, I see from the WP article that the pledge was demanded by the four designated early primary states. So that means the national Dem party wasn't involved at all in the wording of the pledge that permits continued fundraising in Florida and Michigan....right?

In your view, if the candidates really are breaking a pledge (they don't appear to be, based on the "fundraising allowed" wording), shouldn't there be a sanction against them from the national party?

Oh, and Kapt...thanks for the wishes of destruction. If the Democratic party really is going for a 49 state strategy minus Florida, get ready for another Republican President.

[madfloridian]

28. I am asking hard questions that no one else asks.

Why after we won last year did it all start falling apart just a few days later.

I am amazed that no one cares that Florida spread lies about the DNC and its chairman to get their way.

And I am amazed at the way I am treated in Florida because I dared question.

Something is very sad about that.

[KaptBunnyPants]

39. Don't be so sensitive, I come from a bad state too.

But you really ought to think about moving. The whole state is barely above sea level, and the affects of global warming are accelerating faster than even the wost case scenarios predicted. And I hope you're wrong about the election, as no amount of pandering seems to be able to convince Floridians to vote for their best interests.

[smiley_glad_hands]

30. This was an orchestrated attack on Dean from the begining.

The carville types want the money the DNC has to go to them so they can line there pockets with advertising dollars. The media plays along because they want there cut too.

Its all about Dean's fifty state strategy and the idea that they (DLC types) really don't want a national democratic party because they lose control over the money and the message.

I'd say that there are at least one or more democratic candidates running for president that quietly endorse this attack on Dean also.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

35. Could someone break this down for me a little bit?

Seriously?

I'm concerned and angry about losing my vote in the primary, I'm concerned and angry that this act will alienate enough Democratic leaning voters to paint the state red, and that's it.

Not upset about Dean in any way EXCEPT that the national party is overreacting by cutting their own throats with this action.

What do "the carville types" have to do with it, and madfloridian, I don't get what the "hard questions" you ask are or what the "awful treatment" you're getting is.

I'm asking relatively simple questions, like, where do we go from here without losing the state in the general election? If there's to be a caucus, how the hell does that work in a state this size without disenfranchising many voters who are unable to participate?

[madfloridian]

36. I have followed the situation chronologically, step by step.

From the moment they first started the mantra of Dean and the DNC are stealing Florida's votes. Which was never true at all. Actually, honesty and truth matter to me more than anything right now.

I don't trust very many in our party anymore. They have not earned my trust.

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

[avrdream]

38. I have tried to find the actual wording of the pledge but can't.

Do you have a link to that? Thanks.


My very superstitious answer to your question of why this year is: Karl Rove has had something to do with this because it is a way to hurt the Dems. Beyond that, I don't know the answer but I do appreciate you bringing this information to DU.

[cobalt1999]

41. Oh come on!

Since the same thing is happening to the RNC so with your logic I suppose it was an orchestrated attack on the RNC and their leadership from the beginning too?

The motivation for this is not to attack Dean or the DNC, it's about getting a say in the primaries. That is all, no matter how many bogeymen some people want to see.
:eyes:

[madfloridian]

42. Why is it happening now? Why did Florida try to hurt the DNC fundraising?

With an organized party on the ground in the states, we could have been much more likely to win.

But the Florida party leaders here tried to crash the fundraising of the DNC at a crucial time. Why is that?

Why are so many willing to say anything to win? Willing to excuse any actions to just be first.

There are many of us who value truth and honesty more.

[cobalt1999]

44. Simple answers, but you don't want to listen.

You are just emotional and looking for conspiracies, but I'll try one more time.

Why is it happening now? Oh maybe because the primaries are coming up now, people are interested now, people are complaining about their votes not counting again now. Of course it's happening now. You know what? It'll happen again in 2012. Use some common sense, what other time do people care?

Why did Florida try to hurt the DNC fundraising? To make a simple point. If you use a state for a large part of your funds, maybe you ought not to marginalize it during the primaries.

All simple. No vast conspiracy against Dean or the DNC. Just people wanting their votes to count. The democrats in my county are all for it as am I and guess what...I LIKE Dean. In fact, if our state had the balls to do this in 2004, maybe I would have been able to vote for him.

[madfloridian]

45. You sure don't get it. You are making it all about Dean.

I am making it about the fact that Florida spread propaganda, blamed the DNC, and then tried to break the back and the fundraising of the national committee.

Really odd you think it is ok.

[cobalt1999]

47. I find it odd you think state legislators are more beholding to...

some national party sub-committee decision instead of the people that voted them in. Isn't that the biggest complaint we have about congress right now, not listening to their constituents?

I don't know what your history is with the Florida Democrats, but I'm not joining your personal feud against them. In fact, it's getting a little old.

[madfloridian]

49. So this is probably a move to undermine party discipline...

and probably bring out there is already a third party that controls the Democrats?

No, you did not say that, but I have been reading between the lines a lot.

[cobalt1999]

50. No I didn't say that.

In fact, if I were you, I'd try sticking to reading the actual words because your conspiracy thoughts cloud your posts, and sure do make it hard to take you seriously.

[madfloridian]

54. Let's stop with conspiracy stuff and stick to known facts.

.

[LittleClarkie]

59. I suspect the same. Glad to see someone also saying it

Just what I was thinking.

[madfloridian]

37. Pyrrhic victory

Pyrrhic victory <(peer-ik)>

"A victory that is accompanied by enormous losses and leaves the winners in as desperate shape as if they had lost. Pyrrhus was an ancient general who, after defeating the Romans, told those who wished to congratulate him, “One more such victory and Pyrrhus is undone.”

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pyrrhic%20victory

"pyrrhic victory

noun
a victory that is won by incurring terrible losses "

[murbley40]

40. Is anyone actually surprised by this?

I really do not believe in trashing the other candidates,however these 3 have gotten away with enough, I'm so tired of their charades.
I am not surprised by Clinton or Edwards, but it looks like Obama is no different after all.
If they are elected either one of them, as for keeping their word, it will be no different than now.They never intended to honor the pledge when they signed it.
Wake up people !! If you can take their word on something like this, then you can't take their word on anything.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

43. Hang on there

First, the pledge appears to have been deliberately devised to allow the candidates to come here for "fundraising", meaning, I guess, as long as they charge a dollar admission to a rally, it's not a rally, it's a fundraiser. So that was pretty nice of the first four states who are so gravely offended to allow a back, front and side door for further campaigning in the "rogue" states. I don't see that the candidates are really "breaking" a pledge for that reason. (If they are -- what should the punishment be? No delegates for the candidate from the first four states?)

Madfloridian, I'm not trying to be dense here. I know you're upset that the news coverage of this isn't flattering toward the national party. It's easy to guess that no matter what the facts are (that state Dems voted for the early primary as well as Republicans), the press would say, "hey, look, the guys who wanted to count every vote in 2000 all of a sudden want to erase a few million!" That would happen no matter what. So it's very sad that Dean and the national party aren't getting great press out of this, but I have other worries (losing my vote, losing the state in 2008).

I read the threads. Yeah, Gelber was sarcastic. Let me ask this. If he was totally sincere when he introduced the amendment, and half the Dem legislature went for the amendment to vote later -- would we still be having a primary election?

There's an undercurrent in some posts here that suggest there's a deeper agenda here among Michigan and Florida, other than "screw you other states, I'm first", but I can't see it and so far it's not being explained very well.

I want to know what the state Dems can do to fix this to the satisfaction of the national party. The answer apparently is the caucus, which will eliminate a number of voters from the process (no absentee votes for example). The state Dems can't push the primary date to February -- they don't have the power or the numbers.

How about this: if the state Dems force something to the floor suggesting a February primary, and if every one of them votes for it (meaning it will lose, Republicans will still carry it by a wide margin), would that fix things? (BTW, Crist just said he would veto legislation that moved the primary into February.)

Let's all jump off that cliff over there! Wheeeeee!

[madfloridian]

46. I am upset about the fact that my state lied and tried to harm a wing of the party.

I am not especially happy that Karen got the bloggers on board with her, and they still are.

I think they are trying to undermine the national party. Why would they do that?

[Colonel Bat Guano]

48. We have different priorities

I am not surprised that FL leg Dems screwed something up. That happens every time I pick up the newspaper.

I am really surprised that the national party could find no other way of handling the matter than to erect the world's tallest middle finger and direct it at Florida voters. In that way, I see there's plenty of blame to go around. The FL Dems should not have openly laughed at the idea of the Feb primary (which is already way earlier than we're accustomed to). The national Dems should not have found the most extreme way possible to deal with it, since it was inevitable.

It's a shame that news coverage of the whole dustup does not always carry the fact that most (all but one, right?) Dems voted for the early primary. News coverage on most political subjects disappoints in many ways.

I don't see a big conspiracy here to undermine the national Dems. They look bad enough, it's not necessary. Repubs will certainly enjoy it and exploit it (Gov. Crist, who really is the most nonpartisan Republican I remember seeing in this state in a long, long time, has said he'd veto new legislation to fix the primary date problem by moving it to Feb.). You'll notice the Repubs aren't forcing the candidates to pledge not to campaign here, right? Meaning if Rudy wants to fill a stadium for free, he can. (He can try, at least. We have candidates who COULD fill stadiums for free, but aren't allowed to under the terms of the pledge.)

However, since the early primary would have passed even if every single Dem legislator (and a few Repubs to boot) fought long and hard...then....

...it seems that the national party could have found a way to deal with it other than to throw away a huge, evenly split swing state.

I'm way more upset about losing the vote (and I see blame not just with the legislature, but with the national party for handling the situation with a sledge hammer) personally, and in a general sense, I'm worried that this whole thing will swing Florida the wrong way and we get President Rudy.

Still waiting to hear what the answer is, other than the DNC backing way up. Because the FL Dems can't redo the vote (again, if they did, it would fail), and a statewide caucus would be a disaster that would make the 2000 vote look tidy.

[madfloridian]

52. I am more upset over the lies. We are quite different in our views.

.

[Imagevision]

51. If Bill campaigns in the same states as Hil, it's a double message hit...

Oprah should go on the road for Obama...

[madfloridian]

53. Now Michigan is saying stuff that is not true about NH. This is pathetic stuff.

Come on now. You two states who are bullying ahead and blaming the DNC or IA or NH....

Turns out the DNC has not received word from NH that they are moving up...so be patient. Good grief, this sounds like the second graders I taught my last year of teaching. The yes you did no I didn't thing.

http://www.ironwooddailyglobe.com/0905prim.htm

"Also on Tuesday, U.S. Sen. Carl Levin and Democratic National Committeewoman Debbie Dingell, both of Michigan, sent a letter to DNC Chairman Howard Dean arguing that the Democratic candidates should have to pledge they'll stop campaigning in New Hampshire.

They said it's unfair that New Hampshire won't lose any of its delegates if it changes its primary, now set for on the DNC presidential calendar for Jan. 22, to an earlier date to stay ahead of Michigan and South Carolina. The move also would jump New Hampshire ahead of Nevada's Jan. 19 caucuses, which were supposed to be the second contest nationally.

"Someone has to take on New Hampshire's transparent effort to violate the DNC rules and to maintain its privileged position," the letter said. "We are determined that Michigan not be bound by rules that are not effectively enforced against other states."

DNC spokesman Damien LaVera said it's wrong to say New Hampshire has moved up at this point, since it has not submitted a revised plan to do that.

"The letter is inaccurate," LaVera said. "At this point, the New Hampshire party's Democratic plan is consistent with our rules."

Children playing with their toys, which at this point are the voters of those states.

The DNC added two diverse states, yet Michigan and Florida don't even care.

[Colonel Bat Guano]

56. I'm having a hard time following you, seriously

You're more upset about Florida pointing the dirty end of the stick at Dean and the DNC than you are about the loss of millions of Democratic votes, and the very real strategic possibility that a huge swing state will go down in 2008, giving us four to eight more years of Republican madness. Yep, we are different in our views.

Can you encapsulate your point in the last post?

[madfloridian]

57. No.

.

[madfloridian]

55. Just posted an email asking DNC and candidates be defunded

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3499909&mesg_id=3499909

It is from the DEC chairs, just one of the various ones making the rounds.

[madfloridian]

58. My old friend, Eloriel, just shared this article with me...she was a long time poster here.

and we hope she returns someday.

From Open Left by Glenn Smith who used to manage Ann Richards campaign. He sure would know the score.

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=721

"The progressive movement has not just threatened this message monopoly -- it is undoing it. Through MoveOn, the rise of popular documentaries, blogs, think tanks, etc. It's not just that we talk about real values and innovative strategies. It's because we're talking, period, that the centrists feel threatened.

Hence the DLC's vicious attempts to discredit the movement. And that's what they want. They don't seek to win an argument over policy. They seek to destroy the credibility of their opponents and restore their message monopoly.

I lived with all this, first as a reporter, then as a consultant to Southern Dem campaigns that followed the centrist model. We have no choice but to vigorously contest the DLC-type efforts to discredit the progressive voices that have broken the message monopoly, though it is tempting to just dismiss the DLC as less relevent now. The interests behind them will not give up.

UPDATE: I use the term "centrist," and that is really a bad frame because it evokes moderatation, compromise, etc. At least I used scare quotes. It might be better to refer to them as "Industrial Authoritarians." Most represent or protect older industries, and there's a throwback quality to such a term that suits their 19th century paternalistic natures."

And her own personal commment:

"The power brokers/ power players do NOT want and in fact can't afford to let The People have their true power, which has always been, from what I can tell, Dean's most cherished and deeply held goal. If The People get the Power, it will be an end to the power brokers and power players (parasites)."

She needs to come back here.

[IndianaGreen]

60. LMAO! So Hillary and Obama have shown themselves as responsible grownups

instead of joining the "rogue states" temper tantrum that the DNC has thrown. Wow!

Well, good for Hillary and Obama, and good for those that recognize that Florida and Michigan are more important than the bruise egos of the likes of Donna Brazile and Howard Dean.

Now, which leading Democrat will be the first to pick up the phone and tell the DNC that their gig is up, and to seek an accommodation with Michigan and Florida?

[madfloridian]

61. When did you start loving centrists and hating the DNC?

Something very odd is going on here, IG.

What is going on with you?

[Romulox]

65. False dichotomy

The DNC does not equal "progressive" and the DLC "centrist".

Both the DLC and the DNC are status quo "centrists". There is no requirement that two parties in opposition to one another be of wildly different ideological bents. Dean's "50 state strategy" sounds an awful lot like picking favorites in "the heartland" and pandering to them--no different from the Repub's pork-barrel politics, really.

[madfloridian]

66. Then IG can hate both and all.

I said bye to her again because life is too short and I have too many things I need to say.

She can insult me now where I don't hear it anymore.

The Florida Dems are trying to hold on to power for their leaders. They are acting like spoiled children. The DNC's plan is far from perfect about the 50 states, but it is better than Florida ruling it all.

I posted another email last night from Florida leaders saying to withhold funds from both the candidates and the DNC. They are pretty equal in their troublemaking.

There is a huge difference in the DNC and DLC. With the DLC in charge there was no chance of activists accomplishing much. The DNC's plan does not stop that from happening. In fact it encourages it, but it means people like me have to speak up when Floria pulls a power grab.

[killbotfactory]

63. Where these events scheduled before Florida moved it's schedule up?

Anyone know?

[madfloridian]

67. Looks like Nelson will announce an action today....

Looks like he is in charge of the party here for sure. Sounds like a lawsuit. I may be wrong. It would be one more way to break the finnacial back of the DNC.

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/blogs/content/shared-blogs/palmbeach/floridapolitics/entries/2007/09/06/friday_dem_primary_meeting_pos.html

"Florida Democrats this morning have canceled Friday’s planned meeting on the Jan. 29 primary situation, which would have included discussions about setting caucuses so late in the process — possibly May — that the January primary would maintain its relative importance even though it would technically be non-binding.

Word is that U.S. Sen. Bill Nelson plans to announce some action challenging the Democratic National Committee’s sanctions against Florida today, and that the state party did not want to “get sideways” with the state’s top elected Democratic, said one insider."

(The state party did not want to "get sideways" with him? Oh, Lordy, he really is boss here.)

[Mika]

68. Great. Now we'll see who panders more to the rabbid RW Cuban exiles.

I wonder if they'll stoop as low as most other preznit candidates with "We'll put the screws to Castro and under my administration the Castro regime will end" when they come to S Florida. I wonder if they'll hail the great works by the CANF and the "free Cuba" industry (paid for on our tax dollars).

Just kidding.. not really wondering. I expect it.



CANF founder and Clinton fundraiser Jorge Mas Canosa with Bill Clinton

Terrorism and Attempted Assassination

CANF + Terrorism



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