for 15 yrs. Hillary in secret religious group

[donsu]

http://www.motherjones.com/cgi-bin/print_article.pl?url=http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer.html?src=email&hed_20070905_ts2_Hillary%27s%20Prayer


Hillary's Prayer: Hillary Clinton's Religion and Politics
For 15 years, Hillary Clinton has been part of a secretive religious group that seeks to bring Jesus back to Capitol Hill. Is she triangulating—or living her faith?


-snip- this is a long article so I'm just posting the last paragraph

Then, as now, Clinton confounded secularists who recognize public faith only when it comes wrapped in a cornpone accent. Clinton speaks instead the language of nondenominationalism—a sober, eloquent appreciation of "values," the importance of prayer, and "heart" convictions—which liberals, unfamiliar with the history of evangelical coalition building, mistake for a tidy, apolitical accommodation, a personal separation of church and state. Nor do skeptical voters looking for political opportunism recognize that, when Clinton seeks guidance among prayer partners such as Coe and Brownback, she is not so much triangulating—much as that may have become second nature—as honoring her convictions. In her own way, she is a true believer.
-------------------------


I find that disappointing

[mike_c]

1. just one more collision in the train wreck that is the dem primary....

Is it too much to hope for a leader who doesn't believe the world is run by little green fairies, giant supernatural turtles, or whatever other superstitious nonsense passes for "faith" among the religiously insane?

[Bucky]

31. hysterical much?

The description is a little slanted. I suspect she joined the group so that "once" she becomes president, at least a few wingers won't be out for her blood from day one. It's a vain hope on a number of levels, but ultimately smart politics. I think describing a simple prayer group as a "secret group" or as a "train wreck" is a little wide of the mark.

[creeksneakers2]

56. The description is more than slanted

Its completely kooky.

Hillary takes part in the Senate prayer group. That's all. There's no reason to believe she's involved beyond that. Some cult leader may have started the meetings but that doesn't mean everybody (or even anybody) that goes is a cult member. In fact, I think everybody at the prayer group believes in an organized church and the cult leader doesn't believe in churches.

Some people connect dots and come up with pictures of demons. Most of the time, dots are just dots.

[Greyskye]

2. I find it frightening.

We don't need yet another step towards a theocracy. :puke: :scared:

[OneBlueSky]

11. as do I . . . I have plenty of reasons not to support Hillary . . . but this is a major addition . .

to the list . . . this blending of government and theology is getting totally out of control and is contributing to the whole notion of American exceptionalism that permeates and guides our foreign policy . . .

I don't want a foreign policy (or domestic, for that matter) that, overtly or covertly, seeks to bring "the Truth" to all those heathens in the Third World -- be it Iraq or New Orleans . . . "talking to God" has already been liberally used by Bush to explain his decision to attack Iraq, and we know where that's gotten us . . .

the other members of this group tell me all I need to know about Hillary's spirituality . . . not good for me, not good for the country, not good for the planet . . .

[Boojatta]

41. Must all candidates declare that they have no personal opinions

on theological questions? I admit that I would be pleased if there were at least one "agnostocracy" in the world, but I don't see how this is any more of a step towards theocracy than the decision Jimmy Carter made to (successfully) pursue the Democratic nomination.

[Greyskye]

50. IMHO: politicians should follow the British standard

In that religion is IGNORED. Candidates aren't asked if they have 'faith'. They are asked about the freaking issues.

I want a "Don't Ask Don't Tell" policy for religion.

[Baby Snooks]

52. No, but...

I don't believe any candidate should be forced to take theological positions. And they all have. That in itself defines us as heading towards a theocracy. Which candidate is the most devout Christian?

I see nothing wrong with Hillary being a member of a prayer group but this prayer group does raise some questions about "the agenda" at hand in terms of its purpose.

Someone needs to have a copy of the Treaty of Tripoli handy the next time the candidates are asked a theological question that is obviously intended to produce a fundamentalist Christian answer.

[CTyankee]

42. Just a minute. If employees wish to get together privately and not on company time

to voluntarily pray together, I don't see a problem with it. This isn't government sponsorship of prayer. Any Senator or Congressperson has the right to free exercise of religion, just like everybody else. How they vote on issues is our business, not this.

As say this as a non-church going, non-Christian, agnostic.

Also, I am not supporting Hillary. I'm supporting John Edwards.

[DemBones DemBones]

68. Well said. And I'm not supporting her, either.

The Constitution guarantees the free exercise of religion.

Edit: If this group is part of or affiliated with The Fellowship, as asserted in posts downthread, this is not your average prayer group, and is worth being concerned about.

[CTyankee]

99. I'm not buying it. Hillary has been a part of this prayer group for several years, and

I think she was part of a prayer group back when she was First Lady. I don't believe for one minute that a person with her ambitions would affiliate herself with an extremist group such as been described. Also, I am doubtful about the credibility of these "reports."

Personally, I feel that lots of religious groups could fit into the description of a cult. And most religion have strict membership requirements in terms of beliefs. And they "indoctrinate" the faithful.

No, this one is right up there with her murdering Vince Foster. One of the days I expect to see something like that posted on DU: "Hillary 'most likely' plotted to kill Foster" or some such nonsense. Then some "experts" with their "exposes" will be quoted and we'll start all over again.

Hell, we could even bring back the Enquirer story about her harboring an alien baby in the basement of the White House, doctored photo and all!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

3. My vote goes to the first candidate to declare themselves Atheist or Agnostic.

ya, I know, I'm dreaming. :(

[renie408]

36. My vote goes to the person who can do the job regardless of their faith.

I am an agnostic (I would say I am an atheist, but I have caught myself praying a couple of times), but I don't care whether my President believes in a god. Any god. It doesn't matter to me. Just like it doesn't matter to me who they are sleeping with.

[LittleClarkie]

88. Amen.

That's probably not the appropriate word though under the circumstances.

I could give a fuck if the next president of the United States worships his right hand as long as he/she is competent, knowledgeable, a relatively decent person and can do the damn job.

If said person wants to tell me about his faith, fine. That's up to them. If it tells me something about the candidate that helps me decide to go with that person or go with another, then it was valuable. Kerry explained how he could be a Catholic, personally pro-life and professionally pro-choice, for instance. That helped me decide to campaign for him, as it approximated my own feelings on the subject.

But I'm not voting for someone who is otherwise a shmuck because they say they are a Christian. I've had enough of that with Dubya, and some fundies I know defending him solely because he IS a Christian and they think people should leave him alone because he's "doing the best he can." Oh, poor beleaguered baby.

I don't need someone who's "doing the best he can." I need someone who's doing his damn job.

[obnoxiousdrunk]

4. OMG she

is not getting the atheist vote.

[DURHAM D]

6. She is getting my vote.

However, I am agnostic.

[Tellurian]

83. And mine as well..

I am Gnostic.

[riverdale]

96. Would love to be pandered to, but...

no one is going for the atheist vote !

[pocoloco]

5. true believer?

Eric Hoffer can teach us all we need to know about a "True Believer".

[Solly Mack]

7. shudder

[Alamom]

8. I find it "redundant" to re-post this every week.........

It's been discussed, debated, de-bunked and duped to death.


There's an article about another candidate titled: "Turning over the Tables of the Money Changers."

Maybe dig it up and re-post some more (un)righteous indignation. :eyes:

[donsu]

10. sorry, this was the first time I saw the article

so maybe others didn't see the other threads too?

[jonnyblitz]

12. I have yet to see any debunking of this. If I were a Hillary follower

I would want this creepy story to go awhile also, I suppose. :crazy:

[Greyskye]

13. 1st time I've seen it.

Please post a link to the debunking.

Thanks.

[mike_c]

14. please post a link to the debunking....

This is the first time I've seen this allegation. What is the evidence that it's untrue?

[ThomCat]

15. Debunked? Where?

I think you mean "ignored by HRC supporters."

[mod mom]

21. The Mother Jones article is dated Sept 1 2007. I've never read it here before.

Perhaps you don't want other Dems knowing about the contents. I think discussion of this, especially after years of *'s push toward religion VERY IMPORTANT. If you don't want to discuss it "again", simply bypass the thread.

[Alamom]

29. It's crap & been discussed to death ...Seems there's a contagious "Search" Impairment Ailment

going around, so, enjoy....


Aug 17

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3459443

Run, don't walk, to get the current issue of Mother Jones to read about Hillary.
Aug 22 - 128 replies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3467628

Saint Hillary and her prayer circle
Aug 22 - 196 replies

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3467741

Sept 4

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3497466


There are more, many, many more...I got bored. The search feature is working exceptionally well today.


edsp

[Alamom]

30. BTW, a few posters to this thread could have easily verified my claim.

Dishonesty and secrecy abounds, but it's not from whom you blame.

[madfloridian]

38. You are linking to me to debunk it? That is just wrong.

This is a real group based on power and keeping it where they want it to be.

Please delink my post. I am not debunking it.

[Alamom]

47. I posted links to the article or articles which have been posted over & over

in reference to this story. The discussion and debate within the responses to the OP of each contains the opinions and other links posted by many members. No one person is debunking this crap. Many people are debunking it. I cannot change that your OP(s) contains this information.

[Greyskye]

48. Translation:

Many people don't like the MJ article. However, no one has posted anything that 'debunks' the Mother Jones article.

[Alamom]

49. No one has posted any proof to the MJ article either. They have

a few sentences and phrases taken out of context and a lot of supposition.
The authors "have" proved that HRC is no more or no less religious than anyone else.

[Greyskye]

51. Thank you for admiting that nothing has been 'debunked'.

And she's certainly much more religious then a whole lot of people that I know are. I don't quite understand how you can make that comment with a straight face. I can count the number of people I know who go to a weekly prayer meeting on one hand with fingers left over.

[Alamom]

57. & you confirm Witch Hunts still exist by superstitious & hysterical people.

I believe due to posts on the linked threads, there are more people in this one group who attend weekly prayer services than you can count on your ten fingers "and" toes.
You can always use your toes when you run out of fingers or so I've heard.

[Greyskye]

59. rolling eyes

I'm not the superstitious one who thinks that by going to a weekly meeting and offering up prayers to an invisible deity I will somehow magically become a better person (or garner more votes from a special interest block). It doesn't bother me to walk under a ladder or have my path crossed by a black cat either.

I don't "know" ANYBODY on DU. I don't KNOW you. We've never met. I'm talking about knowing people in 'real life' - not an anonymous message board where no one knows you're a dog. :eyes:

[mod mom]

43. I never saw it before. I find Mother Jones to be reliable-what exactly has been debunked?

:shrug:

you will note there are no comments from me as I truly have not heard this before-and my guess-I'm not the only one.

[Major Hogwash]

113. Not only that, it sounds quite plausible.

Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your view of Hillary.

What I find more disenchanting of Mrs. Clinton above all else is her simultaneous claim to be a Southerner (for living in Arkansas from circa 1975-1992), a Mideasterner (for living in Chicago as a child), and an Easterner (for living in New York from 2000 to present).

Never before have I ever witnessed a candidate try to claim they were from so many different regions of the country at the same time, and make speeches in those regions claiming "it is nice to be home again here in (insert region)."

[Greyskye]

46. where's the beef?

1st link: OP only, NO replies. Oh yeah, that was sure debunked! :eyes:
2nd link: nice flamefest very reminiscent of this thread. If there was any real 'debunking' going on there, I missed it.
3rd link: ditto.
4th link: Madfloridian's OP; no debunking there either that I could see.


It may have been discussed to death, and I can tell you don't like what the article says, but I sure don't see anything that shows that the MJ article was incorrect in any fashion.

[DemBones DemBones]

70. I haven't seen it before and I've been here every day lately.

There are so many forums that it's easy to miss things. Most posters don't post duplicates knowingly.

[Pacifist Patriot]

79. I missed it too.

I think it's ridiculous to take someone to task like this when on any given day ten threads on the same subject can all make it to the greatest page. It's a huge forum site. Who cares if topics get discussed a few times over the course of a few days. Geez, it's not like it was about a haircut or something. ;)

I have used the search function exhaustively and still have people point out I was posting a duplicate. That's why I never originate stuff like this anymore. Only original thoughts. So in other words, I don't OP much. :)

[DemBones DemBones]

85. I'm glad donsu posted it again; it's an important article.

I always check to see if the story's on the front page, especially for LBN, but don't do a search. There is no rule that you should do a search before posting, and people can just use the Hide Thread function if they don't want to read about something again.

Don't let people intimidate you about posting articles. You and I and everyone here has the same right to post. If someone posts a duplicate, it's not that big a deal.

Everyone should check the first page of the forum they're posting to but sometimes people use different titles and you can't tell it's the same story. We're all human, as far as I know, and therefore we all make mistakes sometimes.

"To err is human," but some at DU don't realize it!

[DemBones DemBones]

86. I'm glad donsu posted it again; it's an important article.

I always check to see if the story's on the front page, especially for LBN, but don't do a search. There is no rule that you should do a search before posting, and people can just use the Hide Thread function if they don't want to read about something again.

Don't let people intimidate you about posting articles. You and I and everyone here has the same right to post. If someone posts a duplicate, it's not that big a deal.

Everyone should check the first page of the forum they're posting to but sometimes people use different titles and you can't tell it's the same story. We're all human, as far as I know, and therefore we all make mistakes sometimes.

"To err is human," but some at DU don't realize it!

[druidity33]

82. hmmm...

MoJo hadn't posted the full article online until yesterday (day before maybe?), so those of us who don't have a subscription haven't been able to read the whole thing. The Fellowship sounds to me more like a group that coordinates POLICY as much as "joins in prayer"... a really scary thing if you ask me. I have no problem with people being religious, but when you're in a position of power, your religion shouldn't affect other people. If she can separate her faith from her policy, i'd be ok with it.

just offering my opinion, i don't mind Hil at all, she's not my first choice, but i'd vote for her if she were the nom. I just hope that this Rethug weighted group doesn't hold any sway over her.

:shrug:

btw, it IS A VALID ISSUE, and to my knowledge this is only the 2nd time a thread related to this topic has been on the Greatest Page (the only page i regularly check here).

Doesn't every topic here on DU have at least 5 threads devoted to it? :eyes:

[MadHound]

98. Yeah, I'm sure that you and other Hillary supporters find it "redundant"

Or possibly threatening as all get out, considering it ties your candidate to a semi-secret cabal of religious/political nutcases who want to enact God's law as US law. Yeah, I'd want to see it disappear too if I were in your shoes.

But the fact of the matter is that Hillary is a member of this little group of theocrats, and frankly that should profoundly disturb any unbiased voter. We already have enough religion in government, we don't need any more.

Oh, and I'd like to see where a national award winning magazine, and well respected journalist were "de-bunked" on this particular issue. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

[jgraz]

9. "joined him in supporting DeLay's Day of Reconciliation resolution following the 2000 election"

I'm not sure whether to hope this is just another cynical ploy or not. I guess I'll have to settle for hoping she never gets the nomination.

[madfloridian]

16. It concerns me for another reason...the Nelsons control my state's politics

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1474

Grace Nelson, wife of Bill, is a prayer cell partner of a Demcratic candidate. It would not ordinarily concern me this much, but the state chair here is letting Bill Nelson have the reins on the DNC issue. They are ceding to him on important issues.

So that pretty much sets a big possible conflict, and right now it could possibly have an impact on my state. The party leaders here are requesting that funds be withheld from the DNC, and that means they are undermining the party at a vital time.

Too much coincidence here.

"We contacted all of Clinton's Fellowship cell mates, but only one agreed to speak—though she stressed that there's much she's not "at liberty" to reveal. Grace Nelson used to be the organizer of the Florida Governor's Prayer Breakfast, which makes her a piety broker in Florida politics—she would decide who could share the head table with Jeb Bush. Clinton's prayer cell was tight-knit, according to Nelson, who recalled that one of her conservative prayer partners was at first loath to pray for the first lady, but learned to "love Hillary as much as any of us love Hillary." Cells like these, Nelson added, exist in "parliaments all over the world," with all welcome so long as they submit to "the person of Jesus" as the source of their power."

[mod mom]

22. "one of her conservative prayer partners was at first loath to pray for the first lady, but ..."

learned to "love Hillary as much as any of us love Hillary." Cells like these, Nelson added, exist in "parliaments all over the world," with all welcome so long as they submit to "the person of Jesus" as the source of their power."

OK-I'M FREAKED OUT BY THESE FOLKS. TOO MANCHURIAN FOR ME.

[Pierogi_Pincher]

92. ".....conservative prayer partner.......loathe to pray for the First Lady...."

Oh. Very nice.
I read somewhere concerning this 'group', but not that HRC was so connected. Nothing wrong w/ these legislators praying, but what's the deal w/ the secrecy? I don't like the aspects of it.
P_P

[Bitwit1234]

17. OMG does she wear a pointed hat....

what a bunch of crock.

[truedelphi]

18. Jesus does not belong on Capital Hill

If this article is true,then yet another reason not to vote for The Hill.

I don't care how sincere a person is, if their beliefs interfere with one of the founding principles of our country, i.e. separation of Church and state, then I don't want them in the White House.

Woodward has been pointing out how sincere George W is in his idealistic beliefs - and in that case, I'd say an idealistic simpleton is one of the worst things to be - and an idealistic simpleton who has power is one of the great evils.

[DemBones DemBones]

76. Actually, we have freedom of religion

guaranteed by the Constitution, and that there shall be no "established religion" (i.e. official state religion), but "separation of Church and state" is not mentioned in the Constitution.

[truedelphi]

108. I did not know that. But is there not a legal presumption

That due to there not being an established religion, then there must be separation of Church and state? Let me know what you know.

[rosesaylavee]

19. Yikes - look at this excerpt

"That's how it works: The Fellowship isn't out to turn liberals into conservatives; rather, it convinces politicians they can transcend left and right with an ecumenical faith that rises above politics. Only the faith is always evangelical, and the politics always move rightward.

This is in line with the Christian right's long-term strategy. Francis Schaeffer, late guru of the movement, coined the term "cobelligerency" to describe the alliances evangelicals must forge with conservative Catholics. Colson, his most influential disciple, has refined the concept of cobelligerency to deal with less-than-pure politicians. In this application, conservatives sit pretty and wait for liberals looking for common ground to come to them. Clinton, Colson told us, "has a lot of history" to overcome, but he sees her making the right moves.

These days, Clinton has graduated from the political wives' group into what may be Coe's most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast. Though weighted Republican, the breakfast—regularly attended by about 40 members—is a bipartisan opportunity for politicians to burnish their reputations, giving Clinton the chance to profess her faith with men such as Brownback as well as the twin terrors of Oklahoma, James Inhofe and Tom Coburn, and, until recently, former Senator George Allen (R-Va.). Democrats in the group include Arkansas Senator Mark Pryor, who told us that the separation of church and state has gone too far; Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) is also a regular."
__________________________________________________________

Hillary supporters - please post the debunk. I would appreciate not worrying about this too.

[Alameda]

23. Joe Lieberman???

"Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) is also a regular." Isn't he a conservative Jew? What on earth is his reason/excuse for going to a Christian group prayer group? Isn't that against his religion?

[rosesaylavee]

24. That's the thing - this is NOT about religion, not about Christianity

it is about sharing the political power with those in the group. Read the whole article. Its a study in power and how corrupt individuals will use religion to get it.

Not saying our Hillary is corrupt. I still hold out hope one of her supporters will step and post an answer that will absolve her. I don't mind prayer groups - this one seems to be bent solely on grabbing power for its base of members... frightening stuff in imo.

[Alameda]

91. this is NOT about religion, not about "Christianity"?

"Cells like these, Nelson added, exist in "parliaments all over the world," with all welcome so long as they submit to "the person of Jesus" as the source of their power." and I would add to that a particular interpretation of Jesus and Christianity....Nicene Creed Christianity...as encouraged by Roman Emperor Constantine I

What about this quote? Although I do agree with you as it being a power networking click, still if someone is supposed to be a Jew, I don't see how they could join in a group of this type if they have to submit to "the person of Jesus" as the source of their power."

[rosesaylavee]

94. Sorry

I know that is what they are saying and on review realize I was using my own personal yardstick for what it is to be Christian. Personally, I don't this is a reflection of the Christian faith as Jesus meant it to be. Christianity is not about taking over the world - just in Emperor's Constantine's interpretation... who was not a believer just someone who had a dream that he could conquer the world if he used the cross on his banner.

I do see it, if this is a true picture of this group, as more about power - having been a member of the 'cafeteria' Catholics growing up, I understand how one can pick and choose what you need from a dogma and still be a member. Perhaps Joe feels that he can sidestep this bit of it if in belonging it brings him closer to the power brokers.

[Bucky]

32. I am not a Clinton supporter and I don't have a de-bunk, but this article is crap

There's a million reasons to oppose Clinton's nomination. This hysterical, slanted article is not one of them. If besides this article, you otherwise like her, then by all means support her (and may God someday cure you of your bad political judgment).

This article is not up to the usual standards of Mother Jones--it distorts the character of a simple prayer group and it implies that Clinton would be the puppet of their politics. In a word, it's propaganda. In three words, it's a slanted smear job. You can say a lot of bad things about Sen. Clinton and what her candidacy represents. But anyone calling her somone else's puppet doesn't know a damn thing about the woman.

She has always been a devout Christian and she has never in her history done anything to violate the wall of separation.

[Alamom]

34. Sanity and reason even though you do not support this candidate.....Thank you.nm

[madfloridian]

35. No, the Fellowship is far more than a "simple prayer group"

Each time another piece of the puzzle comes out...people fight hard to say it is not going on.

The LA Times had an article on The Cedars even before Jeff Sharlet's piece in Harpers. I have others also. It is a very real and close knit group that is about world power.

[Bucky]

39. Of course. They're the Trilateral Illuminati Masons with Bibles.

From my experience "close knit groups that are about world power" usually turn out to be innocuous professional clubs that are only about careerism. Until she removes the 666 from her forehead and quits helping the Queen of England distribute drugs, I won't be supporting Mrs Clinton. But it will be for matters of substance and constitutionality, not for some delusional flaky ass conspiracy theory.

[EVDebs]

101. Don't forget the SMOM (the old Knights Hospitallers revived)

And see Martin A. Lee's article from Motherjones

Their Will Be Done
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/1983/07/willbedone.html

Much along the Opus Dei line of 'just another group' of do-gooders...

[rosesaylavee]

45. I want to believe you Bucky

but I need more information. Not saying she's someone else's puppet but history is strewn with individuals selling their soul for power. I just want to know that this is not the case with her. I like her in many ways - she will not be my candidate for the primaries but if she makes it to the nomination, I want to be confident that I am voting for her and not a group of shifty rwing yahoos who will be trading power plays with her once she's in.

I want to believe that this article is bunk. There is just enough other ***t for us to worry about that we don't need this too.

[creeksneakers2]

60. Debunk "Elite cell?"

Its a prayer breakfast attended by 40 Senators. How did they come up with the "elite cell" description?

I think the burden (which hasn't been met) should be on the author to prove that the weekly Senate prayer meeting is at the center of an evil global conspiracy. Nearly all the author has is guilt by association and wild conjecture.

I think the author is a kook.

[rosesaylavee]

65. On one hand I do agree

but if you take the time to look at some of the supporting articles on this group, perhaps you can understand my concern.

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525 discusses the Fellowship house run by Coe in DC.

[creeksneakers2]

73. I read that article

And the family's boasts about its influence. The fantastic claims aren't backed up from sources other than the family. I read stuff on the same topic elsewhere on the net. Others, including Carl Bernstein wrote about Hillary's prayer circles and didn't say they were elite cells of a global conspiracy.

If there were 40 members going to the meetings, and something sinister was taking place, wouldn't it stand to reason that word of it would leak out?

Everybody in politics exaggerates their influence. I think that's the case with the family.

[rosesaylavee]

77. Hope so

I hope to read more about it to help make up my mind.

[EVDebs]

102. Post #101 SMOM is an elite cell

and just look at what DOD Inspector General Joseph Schmitz was able to cover up, oh, say around $2.3 TRILLION that the DOD can't account for, yet not a peep out of ol' Joe while he was OIG. A SMOM member in good standing (and what's really weird, his sister is Mary Kay Letorneau

Ex-Pentagon IG Joseph Schmitz At Prince/Blackwater
http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=70&contentid=2823&page=2

and this also shows up in this article,

"Erik Prince's sister Betsy, who is chairman of the Michigan GOP, is married to Dick DeVos, the son of Amway founder Richard DeVos, a member of the board of the conservative and Christian Dominionist Council for National Policy (CNP), an umbrella organization where he rubs shoulders with such leading right wingers as Jack Abramoff, Howard Ahmanson, the Leadership Institute's Morton Blackwell, Focus on the Family's James Dobson, Coral Ridge's Dr. D. James Kennedy, Edwin Meese III, Pat Robertson, Richard Viguerie, and Paul Weyrich. "

Yeah, they're all just a small group of do gooders. Now drink your kool aid.

[GeorgeGist]

20. Fundamentally misguided ...

to believe that the ego can lead the soul.

[mod mom]

25. Does anyone know if she is part of this group exposed by Max Blumenthal:

On July 16, I attended Christians United for Israel's annual Washington-Israel Summit. Founded by San Antonio-based megachurch pastor John Hagee, CUFI has added the grassroots muscle of the Christian right to the already potent Israel lobby. Hagee and his minions have forged close ties with the Bush White House and members of Congress from Sen. Joseph Lieberman to Sen. John McCain. In its call for a unilateral military attack on Iran and the expansion of Israeli territory, CUFI has found unwavering encouragement from traditional pro-Israel groups like AIPAC and elements of the Israeli government.

But CUFI has an ulterior agenda: its support for Israel derives from the belief of Hagee and his flock that Jesus will return to Jerusalem after the battle of Armageddon and cleanse the earth of evil. In the end, all the non-believers - Jews, Muslims, Hindus, mainline Christians, etc. - must convert or suffer the torture of eternal damnation. Over a dozen CUFI members eagerly revealed to me their excitement at the prospect of Armageddon occurring tomorrow. Among the rapture ready was Republican Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay. None of this seemed to matter to Lieberman, who delivered a long sermon hailing Hagee as nothing less than a modern-day Moses. Lieberman went on to describe Hagee's flock as "even greater than the multitude Moses commanded."

Throughout CUFI's Israel Summit, videographer Thomas Shomaker and I were hounded by PR agents seeking to prevent us from interviewing attendees about the End Times. The conference, we were told, was about "one message" - evangelical Christians supporting Israel. We were instructed to only interview CUFI leaders capable of sticking to the talking point that their support for Israel has, as Hagee declared, "nothing to do with the End Times." But I was forbidden from asking Hagee about statements he made in his book, "Jerusalem Countdown," that appeared to blame Jews for their own persecution. After doing just that during a press conference, I was removed from the conference by off-duty DC cops summoned by members of Hagee's family.

-snip

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html

THE REASON I ASK IS BOTH LIEBERMAN AND DELAY WERE INVOLVED. IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED THIS VIDEO HE MADE, IT'S WORTH THE TIME. THESE PEOPLE FRIGHTEN ME.

[ludwigb]

74. No

For me this is the final end, the finito of any sympathy for Liebermann and McCain. Delay is not surprising--he's a sociopath. Anyone willing to court these people is a threat to liberty IMHV.

I don't believe Hillary has anything to do with these people but unfortunately the Zionists are unwillling to criticize them, so Hillary won't either. But when Liebermann endorses Hillary (which he will unless he decides to jump ship) it's gonna be a barf-moment for sure.

[hedda_foil]

26. We'd better damn well take this VERY seriously.

The Fellowship is a secretive, fascist organization that uses religion as a cover for amassing political power. The fact that Hilary is so embedded in it is incredibly frightening. This isn't about how religious Hilary might be in her personal life, which is her own business. It's about how she views the world. This piece presents the Fellowship as a Theocratic movement, though an earlier article in Harpers, whose author (Sharlet) lived in the male Fellowship house in the DC area makes it clear that the Theocratic aspects are a cover for a fascist agenda that goes beyond theocracy for its adherents. (http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525)

The Mother Jones piece says:

"The Fellowship's long-term goal is "a leadership led by God—leaders of all levels of society who direct projects as they are led by the spirit." According to the Fellowship's archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti and the Park dictatorship in South Korea. The Fellowship's God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia, plus a list of other generals and dictators. Clinton, says Schenck, has become a regular visitor to Coe's Arlington, Virginia, headquarters, a former convent where Coe provides members of Congress with sex-segregated housing and spiritual guidance."

From an extended interview with Jeffrey Sharlet for GNN -- posted at Theocracy Watch http://www.theocracywatch.org/secret_theocrats.html

"GNN: What are their core issues then?

SHARLET: The core issue is capitalism and power. The core issue they would say, is love. There are a lot of different things love means. They will always work with both sides of the issue. I saw some correspondence with Chinese officials before Deng Xiao Ping was in power. They had some very clandestine associations with senior Chinese officials, and were told Deng was a guy they could do business with. So that was fine with them.

GNN: When you say 'do business,' was it all about actual business deals?

SHARLET: I wouldn't say it was all about business deals. But if you happened to be praying with someone and you were done praying and said, "Hey, I have some F-16s to sell..." They would deny there is any connection.

They are pretty careful about those kinds of things. They will never say, "We are out here to help set you up in business." They will always help out their friends. "Let me introduce you to someone. The Prime Minister of Malaysia is coming."

<snip>

GNN: It sounds to me like some sort of extended Skull and Bones, an Old Boys Network crafted onto a religious context.

SHARLET: The religious context is real. The Old Boys Network is about business. This is about more than business. This is about maintaining a certain kind of power, a certain view of how power should be distributed. The Episcopalian Old Boys Network was a lot more easygoing than this. This is a lot more militaristic. Really at its fundamental core, almost monarchist. We would be told time and time again, "Christ's kingdom is not a democracy" This is their model for leadership. They would often say, "Everything you need to know about government is right there in the cross - it's vertical not horizontal."

GNN: In that vein, reading your article I got the impression they are praising guys like Adolph Hitler and Ghengis Khan -- a lot. Is that a fair assessment of your intention?

SHARLET: In fact, Harpers made me cut back on that stuff. 'We know it's true, but this is already so much to absorb.' That's why I included that line at the end of the story. The leader of the group is having dinner with the younger members of that group and is talking about the bond, the covenant. And he says, "Can anyone think of someone who had a covenant?" And the answer, of course, and everyone knows it, is "Hitler."

This goes back to the 1960's, Vereide was instructing young men by having them read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich -- "Look at what those guys did." But they will say, "We are not trying to kill Jews." What we are talking about is imagine if you took the "Hitler Concept," and they'll use that phrase, the Hitler Concept, to work for Christ, or the Mao Concept. We're not right wingers, they'll say. You can use the Mao Concept.

GNN: Define what they mean by Hitler Concept.

SHARLET: A loyal leadership cadre, which is interesting because guys like Hitler and Stalin were famous for purging, but they seem to focus on a couple of guys. "If two or three agree" is a phrase they use a lot. If you can get together and focus you can accomplish anything. You don't need to sway the electorate. You don't need to convert everyone to Christ. Everyone doesn't have to believe in Christ, and that's where they differ from other fundamentalists. Some fundamentalists really distrust them for that. "We need to convert everyone, the high and the low." The Family says, "No we don't need the high." All these guys Hitler, Lenin, Pol Pot and Osama bin Laden is another guy they cite a lot, are guys who understood the power of a political avant garde. That's what they mean by the Hitler Concept. Also keeping your message simple, and repeating it again and again because there is only one message and it is "Jesus Loves." You can express lots of different things with that term.

I always try to play the devil's advocate. They are not the traditional right wing bad guys. They have been able to do what they do for so long because no one has been looking for this kind of thing.

<snip>

But at the upper levels there is this weird emphasis on the Old Testament. It's in the story, they talk about King David, who in
some ways was a really bad guy. They are really interested in the biblical concept that whether you are good or bad it doesn't matter, what matters is whether you are chosen. That's part of the Hitler Concept. It doesn't matter whether Hitler was good or bad, Hitler was chosen for leadership. That was part of God's plan. Nothing happens that isn't part of God's plan."

GNN: Are they codified like the Masons or something?

SHARLET: There is an inner core group that is codified in their documents, called the Core. I don't know who is in it other than Doug Coe. The documents I saw only went up to the late 80's with senators, congressmen, and a lot of military men. Before he died, Senator Harold Huges was Core. Former Senator Mark Hatfield used to be Core, and may still be. In the AP article, there is an Air Force officer who I hadn't known about. Then there are associates, usually about 150 associates and they are the key individuals in their areas, and then there are the people who are in a cell with an associate and they are very close. And then there are close friends. Senator James Inhofe, Republican from Oklahoma, is frequently, for instance, referred to as a close friend. President Museveni of Uganda is a close friend. There is no membership card. In all of their letters there is a paragraph that says this is a private, confidential relationship and we don't talk about it when they are recruiting a new person into the group.
.

Note from Hedda: So, where does Hilary fit into this structure? According to the Mother Jones article, she's moved well beyond the ladies' cell to "what may be Coe's most elite cell, the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast". In other words, if she's not in the Core, she's damn close. I've been aware of the Fellowship since Sharlet's article was published in '03, and have been horrified by it since then. The idea that Hilary is part of this nightmarish organization is not something to be brushed off.


For much more on this group, see http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=The_Fellowship

[madfloridian]

27. And my state's connections are deep.

Grace Nelson is on the board of directors and in a prayer cell with Hillary. Bill Nelson is the leader of the Florida party because the party here cedes him that power.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1474

[hedda_foil]

28. K&R

[DemBones DemBones]

78. It is bad news if it is part of The Fellowship.

That would set it far apart from the average prayer group.

I read that article in Harpers when it first came out. Very creepy.

[Peace Patriot]

33. I don't know whether to laugh or cry, but I think it speaks to the deep guilt of

the Corporate Democrats. They can't live with themselves. They have to blame their riches, their greed, their power-lust, their alliance with mass murderers and torturers, and their theft from the poor on Jesus...

...who, if he were alive today, would be whipping these 'Democratic' moneychangers good and properly right out of the Temple.

[madfloridian]

37. Here is an article about The Cedars from 2002, LA Times.

http://www.toobeautiful.org/lat_020927.html

"Located on a quiet residential street, the $4.4-million estate called Cedars sits at the highest point of the Potomac River, with spectacular views of Washington beyond the pool and tennis courts. It is owned by the Fellowship, the nonpartisan Christian group that sponsors the National Prayer Breakfast.

While the annual breakfast is a widely known event attended by a succession of U.S. presidents and foreign dignitaries, the Fellowship's part in the breakfast is low-key. Most attendees think the event is sponsored by Congress or even the president. Likewise, the Fellowship's role in diplomacy and current events has remained in the shadows. That's the way the organization wants it, for philosophical and practical reasons.

"If you want to help people, Jesus said you don't do your alms in public," Douglas Coe, the group's leader, said in a rare interview."

Well, Doug, in Matthew 5:16 the Bible also says to let your light so shine among men. No need to keep your group secret, just don't trumpet your works.

A Los Angeles Times review of the Fellowship's archives, which are kept at the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Ill., and an examination of documents obtained from several presidential libraries reveals an organization that has had extraordinary access and significant influence on foreign affairs for the last 50 years. Eight members of Congress, including Sen. John Ensign (R-Nev.), live in a grand house on Capitol Hill, which is owned by a sister organization of the Fellowship. The house, which is registered as a church, routinely hosts gatherings for lawmakers and ambassadors. Members of Congress have traveled around the world on the Fellowship's behalf, sometimes mixing matters of state with religion.

There is so much more in this article. There is a version in pdf with the pictures of the homes there in DC

Similar prayer breakfasts, begun by followers of the Fellowship and hosted by governors and mayors, are now popular throughout the U.S. The Fellowship lured Coe to Washington as Vereide's understudy in 1959. When Vereide died 10 years later, Coe essentially took over.

Under Coe, the group dropped the word Christian from its official name. "Doug gives an overarching leadership to this whole vision of working with leaders," said Bob Hunter, a former insurance official in the Ford and Carter administrations who has been involved with the Fellowship for years, especially in Africa. "He has so many contacts now. Everyone knows him."

I will see if I can find the pdf version.

[madfloridian]

40. Chuck Lewis has some good comments about its secrecy

"Such private missions trouble some watchdogs. "You're combining on some level religion and politics," said Chuck Lewis, executive director of the Center for Public Integrity in Washington.

"When our most powerful and senior officials are operating abroad, under an aegis that is something other than their government titles, they are somehow less than accountable. That is valuable for a citizen to know."

[Arugula Latte]

44. Ugh. Just when I think I couldn't be any LESS enthusiastic

about Hillary getting the nomination ... something like this comes out ... x(

[maximusveritas]

53. Interesting

I've never been quite sure what to make of Hillary. It seems like she's always playing every side of the fence.

[democrat2thecore]

54. Whoever thought just being a Christian would bring you scorn?

Well....at least in these days and times. I am a liberal Christian, ala Jim Wallis, and love to read the works of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Sometimes, DU is over-the-top in its Christian bashing. Yet, it seems nobody has trouble with the new Muslim congressman being a believer in HIS God. What's wrong with this picture? There is a BIG difference between evangelical, fundamentalist Christians and those of my stripe. Do the Christian-bashers on DU realize this? It just seems here that to be a Christian is inherently bad - and this from a group who preach "tolerance" for everything and everyone else. I have nothing to apologize for. Some groups I am involved with have done more to fight poverty, organize protests, etc. than most secular groups with a LOT more money. Faith in action can be a powerful thing. We are not all Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Some of you who think faith is nothing but right-wing politics, please check out:

http://www.sojo.net/
(Sojourners)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer
(An Introduction to Dietrich Bonhoeffer)

Peace.

EDIT: My faith is guided by the beginning of the Sermon on The Mount. It says all that needs to be said:

The Beatitudes
Lk. 6.20-23

1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:

2 and he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying,

3 ¶ Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 ¶ Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. Is. 61.2

5 ¶ Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. Ps. 37.11

6 ¶ Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Is. 55.1, 2

7 ¶ Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

8 ¶ Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God. Ps. 24.4, 5

9 ¶ Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

10 ¶ Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: 1 Pet. 3.14 for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 ¶ Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake

[mod mom]

55. I believe folks here respect religious preference-it's the use of it for political reasons

that people object to.

[waiting for hope]

58. Especially when God talks to you -

that part really freaks me out. Why can't God talk to me? ;-)

[Greyskye]

62. no chit

My wife is a teacher. A month before the new semester starts, her co-teacher lets everyone know that "God has told her she needs to do something else." She did this of course, AFTER the hiring for the next semester had been completed.

Now that she's given up her (by her own admission) fantastic job, she's evidently having second thoughts, and is regretting her decision. I want my wife to ask her "so did you not hear God correctly when God told you leave your job, or was She just wrong?"

I'm sure that this woman will have yet another mystical rationalization soon. :sarcasm:

[waiting for hope]

64. Your poor wife!

Thankfully she doesn't have to work with the "church whisperer" - Shit, if I start hearing voices in my head, I'm taking a drive to a DR's office. As I said, just freaky.

[Greyskye]

66. thanks.

The sad thing is that this woman is an outstanding teacher that my wife got along fabulously with. I think my wife was more upset with this 'betrayal' then the actual pain (which was pretty substantial) of trying to find a replacement on short notice.

I think it's fine to hear voices in your head. If you start following that 'advice' you hear in your head blindly however, you might just end up invading another country or quitting your good job. Some people evidently regret their actions later on.

[waiting for hope]

67. Okay - I'll admit...

The voices I hear tell me "Damn it - you're hungry, eat the damn candy bar!"...

Now, Bush's voices scare me...

[illinoisprogressive]

61. I read about this and it's full of the fringe conservatives

[knitter4democracy]

63. So, the only real tie is that she goes to the Prayer Breakfast?

That's it? I mean, she's a Christian, goes to her own church, doesn't live with The Family, doesn't go to meetings there, but she goes to the Senate Prayer Breakfast?

Um . . . how is that a conspiracy? I know evangelical code, and I don't hear her speak much of it (grew up evangelical, went to an evangelical college with required chapel, still am evangelical in some ways as an Orthodox Christian). She may use a term here and there, but I have yet to see a real pattern. Her language sounds more like her husband's psychobabble, frankly.

Prayer, even in a group, is still a fairly personal thing. Even if she's in the room, it doesn't mean anything other than she needs a weekly uplift of prayer to center herself. Doing it with a roomful of important people she's trying to get votes from doesn't seem all that spiritual, frankly, but if she finds a way to breathe in it and center herself in prayer, I'm not going to attack her.

[Pierogi_Pincher]

93. OT--please forgive.

Givin' a shout out to k4d. Wanted to acknowledge you way back, but didn't because I don't know why.
Sister Orthie here. :hi:
P_P

[knitter4democracy]

109. Hi!

:hi:

[wyldwolf]

69. the funniest thing about this story that has popped up several times in the last month?

Hillary's ratings keep IMPROVING.

[baldguy]

71. And Bush's Dominionism doesn't bare mentioning because ....?

[ludwigb]

72. I Read This Article

Its implications are a mixed bag.

On the one hand, it's not a bad thing to build bridges with congressional leaders and discuss moral issues close to your heart.

On the other hand, there's a good chance HRC actually holds Christian views, which worries me because many of the Christianists in Washington today are very militaristic on foreign policy. And, Clinton, being "vulnerable" on foreign policy and prone to bad votes, might not have the fortitude to resist the inevitable calls for war in the service of Gawd and Cuntry. Worse, what if spending all this time praying with the likes of Brownback makes her more likely to listen to their counsel? Is that possible? Who knows--I don't know Clinton personally.

[Imagevision]

75. Obama is right, Hillary is more of the same, Bushlite...

[mod mom]

80. Here's a Nov '06 article from Atlantic Monthly on Hillary's involvement:

November 2006 Atlantic Monthly

How Hillary Clinton turned herself into the consummate Washington player
by Joshua Green
Take Two

Photo by Jez Coulson

?f the many realms of power on Capitol Hill, the least understood may be the lawmakers’ prayer group. The tradition of private worship in small, informal gatherings is one that stretches back for generations, as does a genuine tendency within them to transcend partisanship, though as with so much that is religiously oriented in Washington, the chief adherents are the more conservative Republicans.



Most of the prayer groups are informally affiliated with a secretive Christian organization called the Fellowship, established in the 1930s by a Methodist evangelist named Abraham Vereide, whose great hope was to preach the word of Jesus to political and business leaders throughout the world. Vereide believed that the best way to change the powerful was through discreet personal ministry, and over his lifetime he succeeded to a remarkable degree. The first Senate prayer group met over breakfast in 1943; a decade later one of its members, Senator Frank Carlson, persuaded Dwight Eisenhower to host a Presidential Prayer Breakfast, which has become a tradition.



-snip

Today, on Capitol Hill, as the old avenues of bipartisanship have gradually been blocked off by hardening ideology, the prayer groups have become cherished sanctuaries for their members—providing respite, however brief, from the cacophony of political Washington. Speaking about a group is strongly discouraged, and what transpires at meetings is strictly off the record. As a result, the groups provide an intimate setting in which members can share their faith without fear of being judged. “Once you take off the cloak of politics and look into a person’s soul, you find that you can establish a relationship that is enduring and deep and doesn’t let politics get in the way,” one longtime participant explained to me. “If you’re going to be consistent with the teachings of Jesus, it’s about forgiveness, reconciliation, and peace.” Many who come, he said, are surprised to wind up forming close friendships with colleagues who in any other setting would be considered political enemies.

The roster of regular participants has included such notable conservative names as Brownback, Santorum, Nickles, Enzi, and Inhofe. Then, in 2001, just after the new class of senators was sworn in, another name was added to the list: Hillary Rodham Clinton.


-snip

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200611/green-hillary

[rosesaylavee]

95. This was a very helpful article and helped me tremendously

thank you for posting!

Here are the parts I thought enlightening:

One spring Wednesday, a few months into the term, Senator Sam Brownback’s turn came to lead the group, and he rose intending to talk about a recent cancer scare. But as he stood before his colleagues Brownback spotted Clinton, and was overcome with the impulse to change the subject of his testimony. “I came here today prepared to share about this experience in my life that has caused great suffering, the result of which has deepened my faith,” Brownback said, according to someone who watched the scene unfold. “But I’m overcome now with only one thought.” He confessed to having hated Clinton and having said derogatory things about her. Through God, he now recognized his sin. Then he turned to her and asked, “Mrs. Clinton, will you forgive me?” Clinton replied that she would, and that she appreciated the apology.

....

This repentance fostered an unlikely relationship that has yielded political bounty. Clinton and Brownback went on to cosponsor one measure protecting refugees fleeing sexual abuse, and another to study the effects on children of violent video games and television shows. “That morning helped make our working relationship,” Brownback told me recently. “It brought me close to someone I did not ever imagine I would become close to.” Since then, Clinton has teamed up on legislation with many members of the prayer group.

Hillary Clinton’s proficiency in this innermost sanctum has unnerved some of the capital’s most exalted religious conservatives. “You’re not talking about some tree-hugging, Jesus-is-my-Buddha sort of stuff,” says David Kuo, a former Bush official in the Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives, who worked with Clinton to promote joint legislation and who, like Brownback, has apologized to her for past misdeeds. “These are powerful evangelicals she’s meeting with.” Like many conservatives, they are caught between warring dictates of their faith: the religious one, which requires them to embrace a fellow Christian, and the political one, more powerful in some, which causes them to instinctively distrust the motives of a Clinton. Everyone in Washington experiences their dilemma at one time or another—the lack of an Archimedean point from which to judge Hillary Clinton.

.....

But few in the Senate today would deny that, whatever her motives, Clinton is diligent about her work there, and successful in ways that have moderated her image. Her deft touch with conservative colleagues has thus far neutralized the Republican National Committee’s strategy of getting people to put her in the same mental category as bumbling liberals like Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean. She’s no easy target. Her partnerships were deemed so successful in moderating her image that Karl Rove, according to a source close to him, sent word last year to halt Republican cooperation with her—an edict that has been ignored. As the atmosphere in Washington has deteriorated, Clinton has emerged within the Senate as the unlikeliest of figures: she, not George W. Bush, has turned out to be a uniter, not a divider.

This last paragraph certainly explains what KKKarl was talking about - something I didn't understand until now.

I will tell you this - I feel much better thinking that Hillary has found a meaningful way to connect with the people on the other side of the aisle - I just hope she doesn't lose site of her liberal ideals in the process of compromise with them.

And I look forward to hearing more about this Fellowship - this Coe doesn't impress me and I would like to know how he figures into the broader scheme of DC.

[riverdale]

97. What liberal ideals?

It doesn't appear she has any liberal ideals as far as I can tell. She is pretty much a conservative.

[paulk]

106. yeah, that's why she has a 95% liberal ADA rating...

duh.....

[EVDebs]

81. Wikipedia shows The Family, a.k.a. The Fellowship...very interesting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Family_%28Christian_political_organization%29

"Their primary activity is to develop small support groups for members of Congress, businesspersons, and anyone else who is interested in the teachings of Jesus. Prayer groups have met in the Pentagon and at the Department of Defense. Connections to the CIA have also been alleged. "

also see the external link to Harpers magazine's 'JesusPlusNothing' article

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2003/03/0079525

"The organization has operated under many guises, some active, some defunct: National Committee for Christian Leadership, International Christian Leadership, the National Leadership Council, Fellowship House, the Fellowship Foundation, the National Fellowship Council, the International Foundation. These groups are intended to draw attention away from the Family, and to prevent it from becoming, in the words of one of the Family's leaders, “a target for misunderstanding.” 1"

[democrat2thecore]

87. Love your screen name. He's my political hero! -nt

[Maat]

90. I research the religious right, and am a proud member & monthly donor of A.U.

(Americans United for Separation of Church and State) ... and the information you posted above is right on!

Any connection with the Fellowship troubles me ... google Chuck Colson (Prison Fellowship) and 'fellowship' and there's a whole bunch of interesting info. They own a bunch of property around the D.C. area. They've allowed many a strange critter to stay there (and have had many strange visitors with dubious reputations).

[EVDebs]

100. The possible CIA ties scare me. Reminds me that

Hillary worked as a young lawyer during Watergate when the Patman committee was supposed to be able to 'follow the money'. Remember that Woodward and Bernstein never traced the Mexican bank money (see All The President's Men footnotes around p.30-40) which came from "Chilean investors". Wanna bet that the money to Nixon's coffers was some skimmed off the money being sent to destabilize Allende in Chile by the CIA ?

Fast forward some years to 1992 and the money that Bill Clinton got from Jackson Stephens, reported to come from a BCCI subsidiary in Switzerland.

Did Hillary and Bill get a covert financial connection that nobody else gets ? And what may be the quid pro quo for that ?

BTW, the Patman banking cmte never traced the money (stonewalled). See Renata Adler's book Canaries In The Mineshaft or the Dec '76 Atlantic Monthly reprint of the same article 'In Search of The Real Nixon Scandal', about this kind of 'offshore' hard to trace money ooming into US campaigns; Nixon's was also from So. Vietnam according to Adler.

[Maat]

110. I wonder ... after reading your post ...

I just have even more questions.

[mod mom]

104. "Any connection with the Fellowship troubles me". Me too.

[Maat]

111. Yep (n/t).

[woo me with science]

84. OMG I just unrepressed a memory!!!!!!

of Hillary satanically ritually abusing me!!!!!!!!

[alfredo]

89. As long as she doesn't try to put the force of law behind her religion,

I don't care who she prays to or with.

[bvar22]

103. I don't care who she "prays" to,

but I am frightened by the members of this group she seeks out for comfort, communion, and support.
My skin would crawl just being in the same room with most of them.

[alfredo]

105. Being a Senator, she has to work with them and be on good

terms to get things done. If she was in the house she could tell them to fuck off.

[Dr Fate]

107. I don't have a problem with it. But, most conservatives & moderates wont find this to be sincere.

And most Liberals could care less, sincere or not.

Argue with me all you want- but I can assure you that most of the conservative Southerners and Mid-Westerners- presumably the people this is supposed to impress- will never, ever, EVER buy it- rightfully or not.

Note to you conservat-er- I mean "centrist" idiots in the DLC- conservatives don't BELIEVE you when you "pretend" to be conservative- even though us "far left nut roots" know you are mostly NOT pretending. If you guys weren't so damaging to the party and the nation I'd almost feel sorry for you in this dilemma.

[AZBlue]

112. Wow...what a misleading title.

And post.