North Carolina: Hillary 30%, Edwards 28%, Obama 21%...

[SaveElmer]

Not sure how Edwards supporters are gonna spin this as good news...but it will be interesting to see...

http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/surveys/PPP_Release_090607.pdf

[supernova]

1. It's within the margin of error

+/- 3.8%, so Edwards and Clinton are in a dead heat w/ only 2 point separating them.

[jgraz]

2. Why do you support Hillary?

What does she have over Obama or Edwards that would make her a better president? Why is she more likely to beat the republican candidate?

[surfermaw]

7. What she has is Bill Clinton and his record

[jgraz]

9. I just find it curious that Edwards and Kucinich supporters post policy details

and Hillary supporters only post poll results. :shrug:

[rinsd]

10. Wtf is up with insulting a candidate's supporters?

[jgraz]

12. Why is it an insult to point out an observable fact?

I just asked why the continual posting of polls with no policy discussion. Do you feel I'm incorrect in my observation? Fine. I'd love to see a real discussion of Hillary's policy proposals and how they compare to those of the other candidates.

[rinsd]

15. Its not observable fact and you generalized Hillary supporters.

There are a couple of us that post more often than others and we also happen to be poll junkies.

William769 who I don't see around this week is fond of posting other articles related to Hillary as is Alamon.

"I'd love to see a real discussion of Hillary's policy proposals and how they compare to those of the other candidates."

Why do you think its ok to insult a group of people then think they will engage you in discussion?

This isn't the 1st time we've had this conversation. Shit we did this dance last week.

And you did the same thing you did countless times before, moving the goalposts and insulting those that engaged you.

[jgraz]

17. This is just the thinnest of thin-skinned responses

If all I see from a poster is poll results, it's a legitimate question to ask about their basis for support. The poll results are constant, and they are usually posted without comment. I find that tedious.

This is a board that caters to supporters of all candidates. These "Hillary is ahead" posts have a distinct in-your-face quality to them, and I don't think it's out of line to ask for a more substantive discussion.

The problem is -- as you clearly showed last week -- that you have very little of substance to offer. Asking for a basis of support is "insulting", challenging your answer is "moving the goalposts". If your candidate really is "all that", you should relish the opportunity to evangelize for her.

[SaveElmer]

18. The observable fact is...

Any post that discusses policy proposals from Hillary in anything but a negative light drop like a stone from the front page...

[jgraz]

20. Try one. I find that many of the poll-only posts make it to the Greatest Page

As do other pro-Hillary posts. A pro-Hillary policy discussion will doubtless attract many negative responses, but that comes with the territory. You know she's not popular on this site. But if you think she's the best candidate, poll results are not going to convince anyone.

[rinsd]

22. There's a few on the 2nd page of GD-P

The board moves very fast.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3499882

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3499596

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3495278

I like posting and analyzing polls. There are a few of us who do including a few Obama and Edwards supporters.

[jgraz]

24. Thanks -- the first one is fascinating. I held the same hope for Bill and look what happened.

[rinsd]

21. No, moving the goalposts is when you ignored people's answers then changed the question

"These "Hillary is ahead" posts have a distinct in-your-face quality to them"

Reporting poll results usually without comment is in your face while generalizing whole swaths of a candidates supporters and implying they are shallow is somehow not out of line.

Could you be more transparent.

:eyes:

[jgraz]

23. Yet again, you seem to want to discuss my posting methods instead of your candidate

Meta-arguments are boring, even for the people having them. Rehashed meta-arguments are ridiculous.

[rinsd]

25. Because your posting methods are a direct correlation to people discussing Clinton

When you continually insult a group of people don't expect them to drop everything to talk to you.

[jgraz]

26. Again, you fail to explain how a concrete observation qualifies as an insult.

If I had said "all hillary supporters are weenies", that would be an insult. Your only choices are to object to it or ignore it. But a concrete opinion gives people the opportunity to refute it with new information. What you try to spin as an insult is just an opening for debate.

The fact is, I see very few substantive policy discussions from Hillary supporters. This seems to jibe with my contention that most of her policy statements consist of broad generalities with plenty of parseable wiggle room.

It makes me wonder if there is some other motivation for her support besides agreement with her campaign platform. Nostalgia for the Clinton years? Desire to see a woman president? Or just a wish to be part of the winning team?

It's very difficult to see how her campaign platform attracts more voters than Edwards' or Obama's or Kucinich's -- hence the desire for real policy discussion from her supporters.

[rinsd]

27. Concrete? I showed your statement was incorrect with 5 seconds of searching GD-P

Your post was insinuating Hillary supporters were shallow.

"It's very difficult to see how her campaign platform attracts more voters than Edwards' or Obama's or Kucinich's"

Its all the more difficult when discussing said policy you misreperesent Hillary's positions.

[jgraz]

28. Again, your hypocrisy is showing

You bend over backwards to find some way to feel insulted at my posts, then you come right out and call me a liar. Passive aggression, anyone?

[rinsd]

29. Grab a dictionary so you better understand the words you are using.

"then you come right out and call me a liar"

Nothing passive about that aggression and the shoe fits.

[jgraz]

31. As usual, you have nothing but whining and insults to contribute

Those facts are so mean, aren't they? :cry:

[rinsd]

32. LOL, what facts?

Let me know when you actually post some facts.

[jgraz]

33. We'll go one at a time: Hillary Clinton was undecided on the Gonzales AG confirmation

There's a fact, documented.

Jan 6th, 2005: Gonzales confirmation hearings begin
Jan 26th, 2005: the SJC sends his nomination to the floor
Jan 27th, 2005: Hillary Clinton still undecided
Feb 3rd, 2005: Clinton votes against confirmation

Very simple, no wiggle room. After hearing all the testimony, knowing his history on torture, she couldn't make up her mind on his confirmation. I'm unable to find a single statement from her on Gonzales between Jan 27 and the Feb 3 vote.

You've now ignored this bit of troubling information twice. Should I now make some innocuous comment so you can feign outrage?

[jgraz]

34. * cricket noise *

:rofl:

[rinsd]

40. She had yet to announce her vote does not mean she was undecided.

"You've now ignored this bit of troubling information twice."

What ignoring? Why do you just make shit up?

[jgraz]

44. Nice try. Of course, you have no idea what you're talking about

But please continue pulling excuses out of your ass. It's very entertaining.

[superkia]

36. What do any of them have over Kucinich?

[DavidDvorkin]

3. Speaking as an Edwards supporter

It's hard to know if this is good or bad news without some kind of trend indication.

I looked at that PDF file but didn't see any previous numbers from that poll.

[rodeodance]

5. yeah, i know and the title was about freddy!

[calteacherguy]

37. Dude, it's his HOME STATE!

And he lost it in 04'....

You are talking about "trend indications?" Well, I guess you have to spin somehow...

[DavidDvorkin]

42. Not spinning, just need more information

I don't spin.

I've never understood why Democrats let themselves get snowed with this "home state" crap. The GOP made a big deal about Al Gore and Tennessee, as well. It means nothing.

In this particular case, I'd like to know if there's a trend in that poll because that would tell me if this story is bad news, good news, or neutral. The home state aspect is irrelevant.

[rodeodance]

4. i am not biting. i am just sad---john being the native son. -

[surfermaw]

8. If John is that close on Hillary it is a good thing in N.C...he will in the

end winn, most people here are Jesse Helm thinking people.

[durrrty libby]

6. Hillary is staying strong everywhere. I love it

:applause: :applause:

[MannyGoldstein]

11. Thank You! Thank You Very Much!

[Stop Cornyn]

13. How big is Hillary's lead in her home state of Illinois?

[Missy M]

14. Hillary hasn't lived there in approximately 38 years....

her lead in her state of New York is big.

[SaveElmer]

16. I think you are misinformed...

Hillary is the Senator from New York

[Stop Cornyn]

41. I guess I'm misinformed. I thought "home state" meant the state where you were born and raised.

[SaveElmer]

43. Well then, how is John Edwards doing in his "home state" of South Carolina?

Worse than in North Carolina

[Stop Cornyn]

46. 'bout as good as Hillary is doing in her home state, I suppose.

[SaveElmer]

47. Actually...not...nt

[Superman Returns]

19. ouch

that gotta hurt.

[democratsin08]

30. yikes

edwards losing his home state isnt good. he should lead by 50 points in nc

[Colobo]

35. Obama can actually catch John if he works hard enough!

[rufus dog]

38. so it looks like a three horse race

And polls at this time are a lot like College Football preseason polls, the don't mean much except for certain teams like Michigan and Notre Dame always start out near the top. In mid November we have a much better idea who the top dogs are.

[autorank]

39. I'm not an Edwards supporter. The poll is bull shit!

Period, no two ways about it. Things are so fixed - elections, polls, the stock market, the justice system - it's time to stop believing anything like this. It's absurd. Amazing.

[zulchzulu]

45. 10% undecided...

We'll see what happens in the first few states.

NC votes on February 5th, 4 months, 29 days from today.