Florida's actions are going to harm the DNC strategy to fund the 50 states.

[madfloridian]

I have gotten more phone calls the last couple of days. I heard that some of my posts were shared with some Democratic lists. That was the only way anyone got the other side to the story.

I have received two emails indicating that donations to the DNC should be stopped, and one referred to Governor Dean personally as being at fault in this Florida primary fiasco. Here is one of them.

Email from Florida DEC chairs saying not to give to the DNC or candidates.

Publically Governor Dean has not fought back on this. It would have done no good anyway. Karen Thurman, the state chair, had a meeting with Florida bloggers, and they came out swinging at this. The national media is also siding with Florida.

Privately Dean has pleaded on this issue. Here is the letter he sent to the DNC members.

TPM Election Central

He earlier asked for cooperation and asked them not to urge the members to stop donations. They turned a deaf ear to him. The party chairwoman does what Bill Nelson says, so I assume he is the ultimate head of the party here in Florida. He is a very angry man for such a Christian person.

"DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"

Here's what no one is mentioning here at DU or anywhere on the blogs supposedly on our side. They are not mentioning that this is undermining funding for all state parties and their political directors. Not a word from the bloggers, no support for the DNC. How did that come to be anyway?

Why should Bill Nelson and Carl Levin at national level, and Steve Geller and Dan Gelber at state level...plus others like Alcee Hastings and Debbie Wasserman Schultz....why should they be putting so much political pressure on a group like the DNC which supposedly is to work and build the party structure? Why doesn't Karen Thurman stand up to them?

Hasn't anyone wondered about that? Maybe they don't want a powerful party structure nation wide.

Tallahassee.com

DNC Chairman Howard Dean warned state party leaders last week that it will only help Republicans if Florida Democrats cut off money for the national committee or presidential contenders. Dean also reminded them that the DNC is putting up $350,000 a year to pay salaries of six staffers for the state party. He asked Florida DNC members to call off the congressional delegation, which aides to Sen. Bill Nelson and Rep. Alcee Hastings said won't happen

Some have been very critical because Dean has not offered to fund the whole cost of a caucus later after January 5th? Anyone see some irony in that? Withhold funds and then ask for more money? And thumb your noses?

The DNC has offered $880,000 toward a caucus, and Howard Dean actually had to remind the state that they get $350,000 a year from the DNC for their political directors. He was nice enough not to remind Karen Thurman that the DNC bailed Florida out to the tune of a couple of hundred thousand...exact figure not handy.

And in case you think that stopping the donations flow will not affect your state, you need to think again. It is a dangerous and selfish move on the part of the Florida Democrats. The 50 state strategy gets little corporate support and depends on donations from regular people.

I am not sure how this thing will turn out. By now many of us are too angry with the state leaders to try to think ahead.

[droidamus2]

1. Dinos on the move...

This may be a little 'tin hat' but I think there are a number of Dino's in the party, especially in the South, that really don't want a strong national party especially if that party tends to be more liberal.
They want a party that is not quite as conservative as the Republicans, on social issues particularly, but still supports the corporate/conservative economic program. I think the DLC is a big part of this but there are also some individuals too. Personally I think that sometime in the future the party may have to decide whether these people are truly 'Democrats' and if they are determined not to be to do something to control them and keep them from weaking the party.

[illinoisprogressive]

2. Howard Dean read a letter before debates about this situation.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/09/howard_deans_letter.php

[madfloridian]

5. Not sure what you mean about "before debates."

?

[cobalt1999]

3. How could the DNC not expect to lose donations?

Basically, if they won't allow campaigning in Florida and won't count delegates from Florida, then they can't expect money from Florida.

I haven't sent my monthly donation since this whole argument started. I won't send them a dime until this is either resolved to everyones satisfaction, or until after the primaries are over.

[madfloridian]

4. Then don't donate. Blame the ones following rules.

And support the ones who lied and broke the rules and blamed the DNC.

I will make the points as I can, but I think it is too late now for many of us who were once caring about the party.

It is causing hatred and division. It is meant to do so.

[cobalt1999]

7. I don't support hypocritical behavior.

The DNC gets most of it's money from the big states, but come primary time, tries to limit the role of big states in favor of the small states. This time a few big states are sick and tired of it and standing up for once.

It's simple: They can marginalize us and live without our cash, or they can pay attention and get it. They can't have it both ways. Not a dime from me until after the primaries.

[madfloridian]

8. Why did Florida vote for the rules, then break them and blame others

for their behavior?

What is honest about that?

Dan Gelber wrote Dean a letter last week and admitted they did not fight the GOP on the primary issue....even though they knew they could have kept their delegates if they had.

I never cease to be amazed at how many Florida Democrats are accepting of these lies.

It is not honest, it is not ethical, and it is hurting our party.

And you condone their behavior.

[cobalt1999]

9. The people who voted for those rules were idiots or had their arms twisted.

The were definitely not representing the opinions and desires of the people of Florida. If they had, they wouldn't have agreed to anything except being an early state. Committee meetings always tend to produce backroom agreements that citizens don't agree with though.

The state legislature is the only one listening to what the people in this state want, as they should. They don't report to the RNC or DNC. They report to the voters.

If you think the subcommittee members at the DNC sessions accurately represented the disgust we Florida democrats felt in 2004, you are sadly out of touch.

[madfloridian]

10. Gelber and Geller are acting ugly. Nelson is insufferable.

They are hurting all of us. They are NOT representing me at all.

Nor or chairs who are saying to withhold money from the party while asking for more money from the other side of their mouth.

Don't you worry your little head, my friend.

Florida is powerful and has powerful friends in high places.

It is only those of us who care about honesty and integrity who will suffer.

And you just called a lot of good people idiots.

[dansolo]

32. And what has the state legislature done about the voting machines and purged voters?

When those disenfranchisement issues are addressed by the Florida state legislature, then I might start to believe that they give a crap about the voters in Florida.

[madfloridian]

6. In fact good for you for standing strongly for your belief...

I decided to take the side that was being honest, not the one that was spreading propaganda.

[IndianaGreen]

11. No, the DNC has only itself to blame for hurting themselves and the party as a whole

It is the height of hypocrisy for the DNC to shout "FUCK YOU" to Democratic voters in Michigan and Florida, then turn around and say to them "BUT WE WANT YOUR MONEY ANYWAY!"

If this were a marriage, the DNC would be the abusing spouse!

[LittleClarkie]

35. The DNC didn't shout fuck you

They just expect people to follow the rules that they themselves signed off on.

[HooptieWagon]

12. well, in 2004

my primary vote didn't "count" because the vote occurred after all my top choices had withdrawn. Now, in 2008 it won't count because the vote occurs too early. It's a pretty fucked up system. I'd be in favor of a national primary that incorporates an instant runoff.

[madfloridian]

13. We need primary change, but not at the expense of honesty.

and integrity. Not at the expense of a chairman who is trying to build the party outside of DC.

This whole thing reeks.

[madfloridian]

14. Why this year? Why not 2004 or 2000? Why now to hurt party fundraising and unity?

Why did this rule-breaking over primaries come up this year? Why not in 2003? Why not other years? The DNC added two more states, diverse ones in population. Other states had the right to apply to be early. I know Florida did not apply. Why this year? Why are they doing it in a way to make it seem the fault of the national party when it is not?

Why this year?

In Florida the Democrats laughingly went along with the Republicans. I won't speak for Michigan, but I know Florida used propaganda to blame the DNC.

I asked this in another thread, and I never got an answer.

Why didn't Florida apply to be early? Why did Florida vote for the rules if only to break them?

From Governor Dean's letter to the DNC members:

"This is a responsibility that only the Party can fulfill. Contrary to what some have argued, the DNC (and the RNC with respect to the Republican rules), not the states, has the authority to promulgate and implement the rules governing the primaries and caucuses by which delegates to our National Convention are selected. That point was settled by the Supreme Court in 1981. As you know, the rules that you adopted were the result of an 18-month-long inclusive and deliberative process that included the work of the Commission on Presidential Nomination Timing and Scheduling that was established by the 2004 Convention in Boston and whose members were appointed by former DNC Chairman McAuliffe in December 2004.

In December 2005, the Commission recommended that the Party preserve Iowa's and New Hampshire's traditional roles but went on to recommend that other states should be added to the pre-window period. The Commission also recommended criteria to be used in the selection of those states: specifically, that they be states that added racial and ethnic diversity, geographic diversity, and economic diversity, including union density, to the pre-window period. Beginning in early 2006, I asked the DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee (RBC) to begin drafting a process that would implement the Commissions recommendations. The RBC instituted a process whereby every state could apply to hold an early contest alongside Iowa and New Hampshire. After an open process in which 12 states applied, South Carolina and Nevada were selected by the RBC and the full DNC to join Iowa and New Hampshire in the pre-window period.

Your approval of the rules, and the four states that are in the pre-window period, was just the beginning of the process. Since that time, the Rules and Bylaws Committee has worked to implement those rules.

Under the rules, each state party is required to submit to the RBC, a plan demonstrating that its delegate selection process complies with the Partys rules. The Florida Democratic Party submitted a plan that violated one of the major delegate selection rules: the rule on timing."

....."Each of the Delegate Selection Rules has been adopted and refined over the years with an eye toward making the nominating process fairer, more representative and more effective for our candidates and our voters. The rule on timing means something. The rule on proportional representation means something. The rules on equal division and affirmative action mean something. These rules, and the other rules, help ensure that we select our nominee through a fair, open, inclusive and representative process. We do not believe that states can cherry pick which of these rules they choose to follow."

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/09/howard_deans_letter.php

[madfloridian]

15. I will keep posting thoughts on this, even if it goes nowhere.

I think many of us are learning that power trumps it all. We don't have it yet as those who want to change things.

But I am finding through more calls and emails that people are feeling not so alone when they read the whole truth on it They knew it was not being handled right, but they did not understand why.

Here is a quote from MyDD in 2004 that shows even more about the politicking involved in what is going on now. Congress, and in Florida's case, the legislators...don't especially worry about the state or national party. They want they power in their hands.

This is just a paragraph that shows that:

"Tim Roemer is calling around and sending out letters of introduction to DNC Members. To understand the candidacy of Tim Roemer, you have to understand the reason why Nancy Pelosi and Harry Ried put aside any sort of litmus test-- even regarding support against the GOP's attempts to dismantle Social Security, and it has nothing to do with abortion (which the Republicans love to have wedging around inside the Democratic camp), or the fact that Roemer is a former defense contractor lobbyist. Pure and simple, similar to the ASDC's motives, it's a money grab of the DNC by Congress. With a vacuum of power at the DNC, both the Congressional Leadership and the ASDC see the opportunity to re-allocate the DNC's funds toward their own use. Roemer is not a particularly strong candidate because he's a DC-insider, and given how toxic anything DC is to many of the DNC Members, I doubt he has much traction, but he will listen to Pelosi and Reid. I'll follow up more on this later, especially in regards to the Fowler Amendments being proposed by Don Fowler Sr of the ASDC."

The ASDC, the assn of state chairs wants the money and power spread to the states...which is Dean's goal. The congress wants the power kept with them in DC.

http://www.mydd.com/story/2004/12/26/213528/41

Dean asked Florida to get the legislators like Geller and Gelber to back off because that it is what he promised when he became chair. To give the power to the state parties to rebuild them.

[LiberalFighter]

16. The DNC is under no obligation to have primaries

If there are primaries they don't have to honor the results of the primaries.

They could require every state to use caucuses to determine candidates. Or even just have top state leaders determine who they want to run for President.


One key to stabilize the situation would be to require all presidential primaries be held the same day when regular state primaries are held. That means whenever the states hold their primaries in years that a presidential election is not held. All states would need to hold their primary elections prior to the end of May or at least by June so that there is time for conventions to be held to elect the delegates to the national convention during presidential election years. For example, Wisconsin would have to move their primary election from September to a Spring month and be effective for all years.

[LiberalFighter]

17. The DNC makes it easier for candidates to run their campaigns because of available tools.

If those states don't abide by rules that they had agreed to they are risking campaign successes in those states. Those states may lose the tools available to the campaigns that wouldn't otherwise be available outside the DNC.

[MaineDem]

18. Some in the Party are worried about the state parties having "power"

Some...maybe the Carvilles of the world, I'm not really sure ...feel very threatened by the 50-state strategy and the states having any influence over campaigns. In the past Presidential campaigns would come into a state and dictate terms. Now the state parties have the personnel in place to set some of the standards themselves. This is new and very threatening to some.

[madfloridian]

21. You named the ones who had agreed to use the 50 state plan to campaign.

I think it was you. I can't find it now.

Things are getting angrier here now as people start to see the whole picture. The bloggers here and the media are right on board with Thurman and Nelson. The DNC's side has not yet been presented in Florida media.

[MaineDem]

22. Clinton, Dodd, Richardson, Edwards, and Obama

They have all agreed.

[droidamus2]

19. It's the problem

The fact that this boils down to a struggle for money and power rather than strengthening the party so that the programs we would like to see enacted are enacted is the problem. For example, during the last presidential campaign I lived in a suburb of Sacramento California. My wife and I decided to volunteer at the local Democratic/Kerry headquarters. After working there for awhile we learned the headquarters was receiving no money from the central committee of the area because our area had been deemed 'Republican' and therefore the powers-that-be in the party were not interested in spending money there. To look at it another way the 'powers' were only really interested in keeping the seats they already controlled and maintaining their access to money and political power. Dean's and the DNC's 50 state strategy seeks to break this way of thinking. Of course, those that get less money or feel that their grip on power and influence is being lessened scream that they are being wronged. Again more self interest than any committment to the idea of building a strong national movement. If we as a party or a movement never approach people in areas that are currently dominated by competing ideologies we will never have a chance of converting enough of those voters to our way of thinking to ever have a chance to win those areas. Our national presidential strategy of looking to just get enough of the big states to win is part and parcel of the same mindset. Though not likely shouldn't our emphasis be on winning as all the states. In this way we could hopefully avoid the Florida's of 2000 or the Ohio's of 2004. Trying to win on the margins just allows our opponents to target a few states for their dirty tricks in order to steal elections. State parties need to look beyond their provincial wants and needs and see the big picture of influencing the nation as a whole to believe and support a more progressive way of governing.

[flashl]

20. You are dead on target ...

There are so many different forces at work like gerrymandered districts. Entire sections of Florida using their "I4" strategy have been written out of the script when it comes to presidential elections.

Using Florida's "I4" strategy which parts of Florida claiming that its withholding of campaign donation will hurt the presidential candidates?

This is a battle of elephants who conveniently throw around the word "voter". Its like many "movements" where we observe usage of the trigger "what about the children?" to elevate their causes.

I have some other ideas about the 2000 and 2004 elections. If you have the time, read Solution to immigration - Prison Labor. After you read it, then Florida Dems claiming they are concern about the DNC disenfranchising miniorty voters will be revealed for what and who they are.

[madfloridian]

23. I guess this is why Dean doesn't publicly defend himself and the DNC

His statement from April on why he doesn't go on TV anymore.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1442

His voice counts as much as those of Pelosi and Reid and Nelson. By hushing his voice, they have allowed such as this Florida thing to take root.

He has Florida, Michigan, and the media and the Florida bloggers and even Markos working against him...

I would think it would be right to speak out now publicly.

[cobalt1999]

24. Kind of hard without opening himself up to more criticism

He's smart enough to stay silent and try and work this out in the background.

Why would he want to get into a debate he is doomed to lose?

How can he justify the DNC punishments against the big states but still ask for their money?
How can he demand voting reforms and every vote counts, when he is ignoring two major states full of voters?
How can he talk about building the state parties and the minute one of them doesn't tow the National Party line, they are cut off?
How can he talk about grass roots, but ignore that the average democrat in Florida and Michigan doesn't agree with DNC decisions?

[madfloridian]

25. You really don't get it. They voted for the rules.

Then they broke them.

Doesn't matter really.

That's the way things are now.

[cobalt1999]

26. Oh I get it. It's about dissatisfaction with RNC and DNC committee decisions.

You never answer the key question.

If you were a state legislature and your constituents demanded an earlier primary date than the National Party subcommittee, would you do what your constituents wanted or would you obey the subcommittee?

If it were me, I'd listen to what my voters wanted. You sound like you'd be different kind of "representative", but I won't make assumptions. You tell me what you'd do.

[madfloridian]

27. You are presenting a false case.

They are not listening to the what the voters wanted, or it would have been done long ago. Everyone wants primary change. But they are not telling the truth, and people are catching on to them.

Kind of sad how they did it with propaganda and some just keep right on falling for it.

[cobalt1999]

30. "everyone wants primary change"

First logical thing you've posted.

*sigh* However, I knew better than to expect you to answer a simple question. Instead it's evade the hard questions, change the topic, imply conspriacies, but no real substance to your comments.

[madfloridian]

34. I answer questions over and over....just not the answer you want.

"sigh"

Again, for your reading pleasure....if you really care. I have written about this issue in chronological order. It shows the propaganda. This is not about an earlier primary....they could have had February 5 and kept all delegates.

This was about a power play.

Enough of this. Florida Democrats now threaten Dean and the DNC with a "voting rights probe".
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1453

The "appropriate legal official" to "investigate" Dean and the DNC...is...Gonzales.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1452

Nelson: "I will lead the delegates to Denver whether or not the DNC plans to let them in."
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1455

Two summaries of the DNC committee ruling about Florida.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1456

Florida sowed the seeds of a propaganda war against the DNC.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1458

Proof. Vindication. Both Florida parties did it for "relevance." From March.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1459

The latest Florida propaganda tactic here about attacking the DNC...local email.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1460

Florida's Geller joked about his amendment: "sarcasm and audible laughter in chamber"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1461

One Florida county is saying there will be further bloodshed. Much argument here today.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1462

Florida Democratic Party website building anger toward the DNC
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1465

Democratic activist sues over loss of Florida delegates
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1466

"Dean was conciliatory and offered DNC help for the state"..hour long phone call
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1467

Gelber admits they did not fight the GOP about the primary.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1468

"Primary bully Florida ought to be ashamed"...four articles catch on to Florida's primary ploy.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1469

Bill Nelson today will file a bill for regional primaries...but first he had to get your attention
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1478

Bill Nelson today: "DNC penalties unacceptable, unacceptable, unacceptable"
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1479

[flashl]

28. Interesting point, constituents demanded an earlier primary date

Where is the data or information that shows that there is a GROUND SWELL from Florida's constitutents for a primary date change?

Wasn't the primary date change enmeshed in the election reform bill? A bill that would give voters assurances that their vote would count and that the voting machines would stop voting for them.

[cobalt1999]

31. Yes, the bill to move was combined with an election reform bill

Both measures had full public support and almost unanimous approval from the Florida legislature. I fully supported the bill as did our county chairman and probably 90% of our members.

There continues to be widespread support for it too. The representatives to the DNC subcommittee dramatically underestimated the anger we democrats in Florida felt in 2004. We had the choice of Kerry and, well, Kerry.

What sucks for Dean is if Florida had rebelled in 2004, he'd probably have won Florida and not been torpedoed by Iowa & NH.

[flashl]

33. Outside of Tallahassee how many people do you think ...

knew that the election reform bill was being amended to include the change of primary date?

Wasn't the primary date change a late arrival (meaning it was not in the original text of the bill) and surfaced in the bartering that takes place between legislators to pass the bill?

[madfloridian]

36. The Dems coordinated with the GOP on the whole thing.

This is why any other argument is false.

Jeremy Ring, Democrat, worked to push the bill and introduce it. He is the one btw who unendorsed Obama when the said he would follow DNC rules.

It was all done in conjunction with the GOP. It was planned. If they had stayed at Feb. 5 or even FOUGHT the efforts of the GOP they would have had their delegates.

They did not fight...they went along.

Unendorsing Obama
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1471

[MasonJar]

29. Florida DUers, why let this go unchallenged? Florida has done too

much damage already to the Dems.

[madfloridian]

37. Most don't care.

They really don't care. That's why.