John Kerry: Move On ad "over the top"

[grasswire]

He didn't like the Betray-us ad.

On Hardball.

[Jacobin]

1. quell surprise

:eyes:

Let's just make pedantic speeches on C-span and criticize vocal grass roots movements who are speaking the truth.

You'd think he didn't live through the Viet Nam era.

[LittleClarkie]

41. He's worked with Moveon.org as recently as a couple of weeks ago

he has no problem with grassroots movements. He does have a problem with this one ad. As do some DUers as well.

[Ken Burch]

2. Dear God....Nuance Boy caves again...

:eyes:

[karynnj]

27. He has been fighting as hard and as well as anyone

What he is disagreeing with is an ad that is in poor taste and worse - won't work. No one neutral or for the war will read anything other than the large lettered insult. He didn't "cave" here, he is rejecting something that he likely sees as disgusting.

Kerry in fall 2005 did a great job in many interviews explaining what he thought the path forward should have been then. He succeeded in getting many Americans to see why it was wrong, both for the soldiers and the Iraqis, for the US to be knocking on doors doing serch and destroy in a country where they don't really know the language and the culture. He also was the first prominent person to say that we need to state loudly that we do want want permanent bases and that we do want to be occupiers, which at that point we were. (Few were brave enough to push this issue then.)

In spring of 2006, Kerry was among the first to speak of Iraq being in a civil war and that we should set a deadline - He took most of the flack, much from his own party, because of Kerry/Feingold. He went on a huge number of shows explaining the rationale behind it. The current Democrat plan is a variant of that bill and Clinton, is now saying that only deadlines will work.

[JDPriestly]

128. So if he did such a "great job," why is Bush still the president?

He did not do a great job. Let's face it. Kerry is just too nice. And his reaction to the use of the word "Betrayus" is yet another proof of that fact.

[karynnj]

175. Kerry hit Bush a hell of a lot harder than John Edwards did

or than Clinton (either one), Obama, Dodd or Biden did.

The Presidential nominee is usually not the one doing the balk of the strongest attacks - in 2004, Kerry did. Kerry's niceness and decency are virtues, not liabilities.

[ronnykmarshall]

189. Guess he didn't get the lock step memo.

:eyes:

[bluestateguy]

3. And the wall begins coming down: Let the capitulation begin

That, senator, is why you are still a senator, rather than Petraeus's commander-in-chief.

Standing for something means offending some people. It means saying some things that will make Duncan Hunter and Sean Hannity angry, and not backing down in the face of criticism.

[beachmom]

9. Talk about calling the kettle black. Name me one courageous move

John Edwards ever made in the Senate when he was actually there!

[politicasista]

187. Sounds like crickets chirping n/t

[HysteryDiagnosis]

12. I have taken up a new hobby since a new employee is a

dittohead. I am listening to Rush and Hannity. I must tell you that they believe what they preach. They are the most hateful people I have ever heard on the radio. They hate better than half of the population of the U.S. They show utter loathing for the democrats in both houses. They twist the truth until it fits their warped vision of reality. IMHO they both should be checked for rabies.

[karynnj]

44. Kerry has stood up on this better than Moveon.org

1) He presided over a SFRC hearing with the GAO that provided an independent assessment of the report card - the 18 benchmarks that Cocker and Petaeus seem to hope people will forget. That was covered reasonably well last week.

2) He said on This Week yesterday that they will try to fool people into thinking that short term military tactical successes make up for the fact that the Iraqis have met few of the benchmarks, that they themselves set - and none of the most important ones.

3) He also explained the motivation of the Sunni warlords, many of whom hate us, in fighting to kick out AlQaeda from their all Sunni areas - they were fed up with having their sons killed and daughters raped. (Graphic enough?)

Each of these things build the ground work in disputing what Patraeus said. It is likely that in combination and with the serious contributions of others, this will keep people on our side and possibly win the people on the wall.

The Moveon people will move no one - at least not in our direction. Acting like Moveon or Michael Moore would not have led to a Kerry victory - it could have led to him losing more states than McGovern - including his own.

[JDPriestly]

130. He did all those "wonderful" things, and no one noticed except you

and a couple of other Democratic faithful. Move-On played an ad in which it talked about "Betrayus," and everyone sat up and paid attention. Even if they disapproved, at least they noticed. And trust me, the use of the word Betrayus betrays only the truth. Betrayus is betraying us and has betrayed us with his lies about the "progress" in Iraq over and over. The Move-On ad was extremely effective. The reactions of people show just how much it has impressed them. First they react negatively, and later they will see the light and realize just how much this guy is betraying all Americans especially the soldiers in Iraq.

[ProSense]

136. BS!

MoveOn teamed with Kerry to throw house parties for screening Gore's An Inconvenient Truth.

Kerry teamed with them again to call for reinstating Gen. Batiste after CBS fired him.

Leonardo DiCaprio used Kerry's e-mail list to promote his movie.

So BS, people noticed beside Karynnj.

[JDPriestly]

139. Kerry is great on many things, but all the activities mentioned

in the post to which I was responding were ignored. The word Betrayus is simple, clear and tells a story. It uses language in an effective way. One word tells the story.

[ProSense]

141. The ad means nothing to anyone except the

distraction it created in the middle of discussing Petraeus, who is not the issue. Bush's policy is! The facts are. Every discussion was interrupted with the stupid question about the ad.

[karynnj]

177. I would agree if I heard anyone seem to switch positions

based on it. I suspect that the ad will work just like other "raw meat" to the base does. It will be wildly cheered by the people who already agree. It will be condemned by people on the other side and it will embarrass Democrats in the leadership. It will also, if anything, turn off people beginning to listen.

I was a college student during the Vietnam War. The antics of the protesters scared and hardened many of the people who could have been brought to see that the war was a mess. In fact, in 2004, if you listened to the Nixon tape excepts, the reason Nixon went after Kerry is because, unlike all the other protesters, they feared him because he could reach those people still on the fence or on the other side.

What this did is throw a monkey wrench into the Democrats getting their message out - all the Democrats primed yesterday to speak of how few benchmarks were passed and counter the Bush spin, were instead asked about this ad. It got everyone off message.

[ChiciB1]

176. I Usually Agree With You Regarding Kerry, But NOT THIS TIME!

So sorry, I was around during Viet Nam and well remember what went on. Kerry WAS out there and fought the good fight, but tell me WHAT HAPPENED???

I waited for YEARS for him to run for President and was over-joyed when he did. I worked my ASS off for him, but what he said yesterday just "blew me away!" Not only that, it really hurt a LOT!!!!!!

[karynnj]

180. Did you hear the entire comment?

His criticism was understated and he praised other work they did.

[polichick]

4. I'm sick of such caution on the part of Dems...

Kerry was probably thinking of the swift-boat episode ~ but I agree with Eli and Markos about the Dems being too wimpy. WAY TOO WIMPY!

[AtomicKitten]

5. I would say there is nothing that is too "over the top" to stop the war.

And that includes the lovely ladies in pink.

[karynnj]

47. and this rudeness will gain people to our side?

or end the war?

[AtomicKitten]

89. I like it as a reminder that this isn't a Twilight Zone episode --

and that, in fact and ironically, sanity prevails.

[JDPriestly]

131. Yes. It will. O'Reilly's excessive rudeness never turned

any righties off, did it? That is precisely what those people admire and respect.

[karynnj]

179. But has it impressed the people in the middle or us?

Our goal is not to create our own little group that cheers as we bash "the enemy". It has to be to convince others that we were right and that we need to change the policy. It more likely will require humbleness than cheesy making fun of a General's name. We can not get 60 or 67 votes through acrimony.

You need to consider that a Michael Moore or an O'Reilly will be 100% accepted by maybe 30% of the people - to govern or to legislate successfully you need the middle ground as well.

[beachmom]

6. It IS over the top. Name calling a General? Pretty childish.

Do me a favor and find me a Democrat who openly DEFENDS the Moveon.org ad. I doubt you'll find ONE.

[niceypoo]

194. I openly defend it

It speaks the truth. You do remember what truth is, Dont you?

[sampsonblk]

212. Sure, but airing our dirty laundry is even worse.

If Kerry has a problem with that ad, as I do, he can call them and complain. But complaining about them in the media is a bad bad business and serves the purposes of the other side.

Same for this absurd condemnation vote. What is that all about? If its that big of a deal, they can shut up in public and privately call MoveOn and tell them to cut that stuff out.

[ProSense]

7. Why is that a surprise after what he said yesterday?

Kerry: I think General Patreaus will present the facts with respect to the statistics and the tactical successes or situations as he sees them. But none of us should be fooled into this tactical success debate. We’ll never have enough troops to provide the kind of tactical success in one community or another across all of Iraq. So the only way is to have political reconciliation. Until that happens things are going to get more tense. I think they’re courting disaster. You can take a tactical success and misread it as we did in Vietnam.

link


"administration's use of Petraeus, should be understood as 'merely' political"

[JDPriestly]

8. Move-On has the right to say what it wants.

Kerry should move on. He is a nice guy, but if he had been less prissy and stuffy about things like "Betrayus," we might have won the 2004 election by a margin big enough to foil the Republican cheating. He has no sense of humor. Shakespeare would have loved "Betrayus." It says almost as much as a picture.

Didn't the Republicans call Democrats the "Rats"? So, why are we so scared to call Petraeus Betrayus. That word says it all. There is nothing inaccurate about the word, considering how he has either falsified or condoned the falsification of the information he is giving Congress. What's with the phony "niceness"?

[beachmom]

10. I'm not sure what part of the planet you live on, but where I live --

in a major military town -- calling a General names is just beyond the pale. Kerry is right. And there isn't a bigger anti-war senator this side of Feingold than him.

[Breeze54]

14. BS!!

[Hersheygirl]

82. I will second that.

Trying to nice has gotten us where we are today. I remember seeing and hearing General Eisenhour, now there was a real general, a man who earned and deserved the title.

[Ron Green]

16. How about General Curtis LeMay? Were you against calling him names?

He was deserving of almost any name thrown his way.

Not that Petraeus is crazy like LeMay, but he is, after all, a mouthpiece for a corrupt and deceitful administration.

[Mass]

17. So say he is a mouth piece. Dont call him a traitor...

It was the message the Dems had, that he was the messenger for the Bush administration. The Moveon ad made this message useless and ineffective.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. General Benedict Arnold?

Can I call him a traitor? How far does this militarism of yours go?

[Mass]

25. Actually nowhere. However, my sense of efficiency does go far.

Do you think there is anything to win forcing every single Democrat or anti-war activist going on the media in the next three days to justify themselves on the MoveOn ad rather than talking about what is in the report and how it is irrelevant.

I do not care about how you call Petraeus or anybody else. I care about getting the message out and the message is not about him, but how the administration and the fact that we need to get out of Iraq. Everything that disturb us from this goal is bad!

[TankLV]

114. T.R.A.I.T.O.R.

Get over it - it's the TRUTH - he was PROMOTED to his position after all the other generals RESIGNED in disgust with the way bush* and the repukes were fucking this country...

HE'S A PROVEN LIAR!!!

for godssake...

I hate vichy dems...

[JDPriestly]

134. Thank you for mentioning Vichy.

Most Americans don't know who he was. He was the guy that enabled the Hitler regime in France. The comparison is apt. Betrayus has lied over and over about what has been going on in Iraq. It is not as if this was the first time that he stepped up to the plate to tell us that things are improving over there. And of course, if you look at the statistics on deaths of American troops throughout the war, you know that in spite of the dedication of our women and men over there, they are dying in increasing numbers. You will also note that August is the month with the lowest or close to the lowest troop casualties -- pretty much ever year. So, as the mouthpiece for the Bush administration Betrayus is betraying us by "fixing the facts around the policy." No, I do not respect a military man with so little concern for the truth and for the wellbeing of his troops that he lies over and over and misrepresents the truth over and over just to keep a lost cause going.

[Mass]

148. LOL You are right, most Americans do not know who he was, including yourself.

Vichy is not a man. It is a place. The place where the Petain government had his seat during the war.

[JDPriestly]

173. You are right. Senior moment. Sorry. I have an advanced

degree in French literature and lived there a couple of years. Sorry, sorry.

[karynnj]

182. I'm sure your high school world history teacher is pleased

What else do you know this "guy" Vichy. I guess "he" has a bit in common with Paris - the city, not the woman.

[Mass]

150. Who are you calling a vichy democrat?

Get over it. You just made my point. I have no sympathy for Petreaus. I made the point that the ad was not helping, that is all, and you are namecalling me. Thanks a lot.

[redqueen]

172. They called him a traitor?

Really?

[Warren Stupidity]

19. "calling a General names is just beyond the pale"

this is a democratic republic of citizens each equal to the other. Your rank in a military hierarchy does not mean that you are immune to insults and political attacks. It is your attitude, and Senator Kerry's, placing soldiers on a pedestal, worshiping the military, taking offense at any suggestion that the "officers and gentlemen" are just as likely liars and crooks as anyone else in washington, is the stupid thoughtless attitude that allowed the liars and crooks to get us into the mess we are in today.

[RFKJrNews]

143. OK, let me get this straight...

We can call the military's commander-in-chief, the President of the United States every name in the book (even invent a few new ones), but in your version of reality, calling a general names is "beyond the pale"?

Look, generals are not gods. Neither are Presidents. Or Senators.

They are fallible, corruptible, human beings (and frankly, their humanity is a topic that is open to debate).

The REAL heroes are the men and women in uniform, dodging bullets and roadside bombs over there every day. Let's honor THEM and BRING THEM HOME NOW!!!

[beachmom]

155. Well YOU can call him whatever you want. But an elected Democratic offical

cannot. I mean, this is politics. Just because it's a "free country" doesn't mean you can run your mouth however you want and then turn around and expect to get re-elected.

[TankLV]

112. Betrayus is fucking LIAR - a PROVEN LIAR - just like POWELL...

Jesusfuckingchrist - how many time do you have to be LIED to to ask for proof BEFOREHAND?

It's people like you who are the reason we're in this mess...

[dugggy]

122. They live on the planet of childish immaturity!

I do not like name calling addrressed to any of our leaders
whether they are democrats, republicans or independent. We
do not want to descend down to gutter politics.

Respect & civility begets respect & civility. Which is why
I do not listen to radio talk hosts such as Mark Levin who
has derisive names for every democratic leader.

[ChiciB1]

178. Well, Say What You Will About Move-On... At Least The Have The Cojones

to put their money where their mouth is!! This is SUPPOSED to be America and we SHOULD be able to call a Spade a Spade!

Colin Powell is an ASS-HOLE, good enough for you?? Don't mean to be so aggressive, but I hail from Ft. Hood, TX and I CLEARLY remember back during Viet Nam what happened! Ever heard of Fragging?" It was the grunts who started it, the soldiers who got fed up FIRST! If truth be told it wasn't the American people who started the Anti-War in the beginning, it was the SOLDIERS! And even through ALL THESE YEARS, those Vets from them who support this War are simply lying when they say WE spat on them when they returned.

Buy the CD called Sir, No Sir!! It will enlighten you I think.

[niceypoo]

195. Read the ad before you make judgements please

It is apparent you havent actually read what the ad says. Otherwise you wouldnt have such a kneejerk reaction to the caption.

[LittleClarkie]

50. And Kerry has the right to criticize what they have to say

it works both ways.

And if Kerry moves on, as it were, but would you like him to take his money with? The money he's been giving to Dem candidates as he tries to strengthen our majority just as he helped us get that majority in 2006?

Would you prefer if he didn't speak out against the war?

[karynnj]

51. so, has the Edwards defended Move on? - I don't think so

Kerry has a very good sense of humor - but he has matured beyond the middle school boys, who find it funny to distort people's names. Kerry's niceness is not phony - it has been there for the nearly 3 and a half decades he has been in the public eye. I guess you need to blame his parents for raising him to have good manners and values.

As to your argument, Kerry likely would answer as he did Sam Fox, "So, 2 wrongs make a right" (a comment that freaked me out having heard that from parents in childhood.)

Had Kerry acted like that in 2004, he would not have gotten the nomination and he would have lost by more than McGovern. But, he was FAR tougher on Bush than Edwards ever was.

[JDPriestly]

135. The Betrayus label will stick in people's minds.

The statistical analysis will not. Betrayus is effective. Are you scared of being effective?

[Freddie Stubbs]

106. Freedom of Speech gove them the right to say all sorts of things which are counterproductive to

their cause.

[liberaldemocrat7]

108. I call GW Bush, General Betray US. I created stickers with that notion.

Over 100 people looked at my sticker the other day and today on zazzle.

[Mass]

11. Over the top, probably not, but useless and poorly targetted.

They attack the messenger and not the message, and therefore the MSM is ignoring the content of the message to speak about the bad liberals who badmouth a good general. Not really intelligent!

[Warren Stupidity]

32. The bullshit media system will lie and distort everything

If the criteria for doing something against the war is 'don't do it if the bullshit media system will use it against you' the set of actions that can be taken is the empty set.

[TankLV]

116. and it's getting PLENTY of air play!!!

Great advertising if you ask us...

[Breeze54]

13. Again, he doesn't fight back!!

:argh: Leopards never change their spots, do they.

:grr: Screw you, Kerry!!!

[NavyDavy]

39. when you have done half as much as kerry has then i will

listen to you....what Sen Kerry can't have his own opinion about the ad? now who is talking like a repuke

[Breeze54]

64. Kerry has ORGANIZED WITH MOVEON to stop the war with vigils!

Talk about trying to have it both ways!!

What would you know about what I have done?

It seems to me I've done more to stop the fucking war than Kerry has, with his lip service!

[LittleClarkie]

75. Not having it both ways. I can work with someone and support them

but still not agree with everything they say.

You don't have to cheerlead the people you work with as if you never think anything they say is wrong.

[LittleClarkie]

60. Fight back? He's not being attacked is he?

He just didn't like the ad. Some DUers didn't either. Didn't make them cowards. Didn't mean that they aren't fighting. Same with Kerry.

[Mass]

15. You wont find a senator to support this ad...

He would be killed by the media and rendered useless...

[Breeze54]

22. Oh yeah? Check out what Reid said!

Jim Manley, a spokesman for Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader, said in
an interview that the ad “may have given the Republicans a talking point,” but in the end,
their efforts to deflect responsibility for the war would not work.

He also put out a statement, saying: “Serious questions have been raised, and will continue
to be raised, about the veracity of some of the statistics that will the White House and General
Petraeus will cite. The Administration has exhausted its credibility when it comes to intelligence
and statistics. The burden really is on the White House to demonstrate why we should trust i
and its flawed strategy any longer.”

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/09/10/republicans-pile-on-over-moveon-ad/

[maximusveritas]

26. He didn't support it. He just smartly deflected the question

and focused on more important things. Without seeing the transcript, it's hard to condemn Kerry. I'm sure he did a similar thing.

[Mass]

30. He does not endorse the ad. He asks questions about the testimony.

And,CNN reported that Reid said the ad was not the message the Democrats want to have.

[Breeze54]

35. He didn't denounce it and his comment appears to agree!

IMHO.

[polichick]

69. Smart move. nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

107. He hasn't denounced it YET

Give it some time. It very well may happen.

[JDPriestly]

137. He used it as a platform from which to launch ideas.

That is exactly how words like "Betrayus" should be used. Did you ever use rhymes to remember things in school? Most people do. The word "Betrayus" is a reminder of what the Bush administration policy and this general's lies are -- betrayals of American ideals.

[Warren Stupidity]

18. Well John is very concerned I see, just like some folks here.

Very very concerned about the propriety of it all.

[karynnj]

20. I thought the ad childish and annoying before Kerry said anything

Do you people honestly thing that name calling a 4 star general that way will ad even ONE person anywhere in the Unites States to our cause? The facts are on our side - the surge did NOT do it's main rationale and as Kerry has said they are moving the goalposts - as they always do. That SHOULD be the story.

[JDPriestly]

138. Yes. Facts don't get you far. Words like Betrayus do.

Remember "If the glove won't fit, you must acquit"? Stupid, but effective.

[Webster Green]

23. Why even comment on the ad? Because Hunter said they had to?

WTF?! That Nazi piece-of-shit Hunter gets to make a rule that senators must either condemn the ad or else that means they agree with it?

They should just tell Duncan Hunter to go fuck himself.

[Mass]

33. Because he was asked the question in an interview.

[scarface2004]

24. the ad was bland, very sedate

nowhere near the top. needed to call betrayus a cowardly fascist baby killer! then it would have been about right!

[cali]

93. *sigh*

Americans may not like the war, but they LOVE and trust the military. Don't ask me why, but they do, and this ad isn't going to help persuade anyone who isn't firmly in the choir.

Here's what they should have done:

Held off until tomorrow.

Run an ad that started out with Welch's famous words, "Have you no shame, sir", and then point out each and every lie.

Name calling just isn't a smart tactic.

[Breeze54]

104. *groan* - You should read the whole ad.

[Warren Stupidity]

120. Why bother when the Echo Chamber has already read it for us?

We just accept their framing. They have been doing this to us for 20 years and we still don't stop to even bother to check one damn fact.

[cali]

124. I've read the whole ad.

And you shouldn't make assumptions. Not terribly,um, swift. The ad itself is pretty good, but the message got completely lost by the Betray us crap. Dumb, dumb, dumb. As i said in my OP, it was a stupid diversion, and boy have I been proved right.

"It's the framing, stupid".

[Peregrine Took]

28. Kerry is the quintessential establishment, comfortable good old Beltway

boy. Who cares what he thinks?

[fedupinBushcountry]

62. Actually

I don't care what you think. Which by the way is hogwash.

[ProSense]

65. deleted, wrong place. n/t

[LittleClarkie]

76. As someone who's working against the war, and who helped us win a Dem majority

in 2006, Kerry deserves more consideration than that.

I care what he thinks.

Well, you asked.

[karynnj]

86. Which is why he stood with 12 other Senators to demand a deadline

in June 2006 and why he stood alone to demand that BCCI not be able to control American banks and buy American politicians?

[Warren Stupidity]

29. This ad?

GENERAL PETRAEUS OR GENERAL BETRAY US?

Cooking the Books for the White House.

General Petraeus is a military man constantly at war with the facts. In 2004, just before the election, he said there was “tangible progress” in Iraq and that “Iraqi leaders are stepping forward.” And last week Petraeus, the architect of the escalation of troops in Iraq, said, “We say we have achieved progress, and we are obviously going to do everything we can to build on that progress.”

Every independent report on the ground situation in Iraq shows that the surge strategy has failed. Yet the General
claims a reduction in violence. That’s because, according to the New York Times, the Pentagon has adopted a bizarre
formula for keeping tabs on violence. For example, deaths by car bombs don’t count. The Washington Post reported
that assassinations only count if you’re shot in the back of the head — not the front. According to the Associated
Press, there have been more civilian deaths and more American soldier deaths in the past three months than in any
other summer we’ve been there. We’ll hear of neighborhoods where violence has decreased. But we won’t hear that
those neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed.

Most importantly, General Petraeus will not admit what everyone knows: Iraq is mired in an unwinnable religious
civil war. We may hear of a plan to withdraw a few thousand American troops. But we won’t hear what Americans are
desperate to hear: a timetable for withdrawing all our troops. General Petraeus has actually said American troops
will need to stay in Iraq for as long as ten years.

Today, before Congress and before the American people, General Petraeus is likely to become General Betray Us.

http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

Where exactly did move on call that asshole a traitor? What exactly is over the top about this ad?

Once Again We Are Allowing The Bullshit Media System To Tell Us What To Think

Wake Up. They Are Lying. Wake Up. They Are Lying.

[polichick]

31. I think Kerry's heart is in the right place...

He just doesn't seem to have the guts to follow it.

[karynnj]

87. it does not take "guts" to name call and to be rude

It does take guts for Kerry to have done many things ha has done in his life. (Actually, stating his view that this is wrong takes more guts for a Democrat running for Senate than avoiding the question - which he has more than enough skill to do. The fact is the ad clearly offended him - and his sense of decency.

That does not mean that he won't be the one asking the toughest questions in the SFRC tomorrow. (In fact, having made this statement when he did, he has the credibility to go after him more than he did before. )

[polichick]

144. It wasn't rude to speak the truth about Petraeus' report...

And it's not just Petraeus who has betrayed us ~ so has Colin Powell and others. Without fearless groups like MoveOn speaking out all these years, most Americans would still be asleep.

I like Kerry, but worrying about being polite doesn't work with this gang of thugs ~ if Kerry had dared to fight the bogus Diebold election in Ohio, he'd be president now and we wouldn't be dealing with any of this.

[ProSense]

145. He wasn't worrying about being polite, he was

being himself. The video is posted here.

[polichick]

147. I saw it at the time and was disappointed...

I've always liked Kerry, but it seemed to me he was distancing himself from something potentially controversial ~ he did that a lot in his campaign and it didn't serve him, or us, well.

[ProSense]

153. That's nonsense

When he stood up for Batiste, was he distancing himself from something controversial, or when he called for regime change in the U.S. one week into the war? One can hardly call Kerry cautious, given the ease at which the wingnuts and some on the left scrutinize his comments.

All this is selectivity and cherry picking to claim Kerry is different now. Nonsense!

[polichick]

169. Well, we're all entitled to our opinions...

imo all the Dems are being way too cautious ~ you can't take on thugs with pea shooters.

[AX10]

34. Kerry has spent too much time inside the beltway.

:eyes:

[Cameron27]

36. I didn't think the ad was over the top,

but in this case, Kerry did the right thing. I can't see any US senator calling out a 4 star general as a betrayer without even hearing his testimony.

[ShortnFiery]

37. That shows that Senator Kerry has LOST the Moral Courage that he had displayed

during the Vietnam War. I'm sadly disappointed in this statement. Kerry has turned into just another "kiss-corporate-ass" politician. :thumbsdown:

[polichick]

38. I can still remember those pics of Kerry demonstrating and...

...so eloquently speaking the truth about Viet Nam. THAT'S the Kerry I'd like to see again!

[Cameron27]

42. But he was asked the question before Petraeus testified!

[polichick]

49. I'm not just referring to today, but to his calculated caution about...

...so many things, including his own swift-boat case and his backing away from a fight after the election. I'd like to see the old spunky Kerry who wasn't afraid to go against the grain, even the military grain.

(Did anybody really doubt that Petraeus would spit out whatever Bush needed? People are already picking out phrases Petraeus used today that Bush used days ago.)

[Cameron27]

52. I'm just reacting to what he said today, and

this was as far as I'd expect any senator to go. I can't speak for Wes Clark, but I'd be surprised if he would have said anything that much different about the ad.

[beachmom]

70. Actually, Petraeus was on the defensive before he even read his report.

He felt the need to say the WH hadn't written it for him. We bloggers did our job, didn't we? And, I'll allow, the Moveon ad, too. Without "General Betray Us", but rather their points about the report possibly not being independent, I would have thought it a decent ad.

[ProSense]

45. Here

Kerry.

This is just another thread for people to get their rocks off bashing Kerry. It's a BS thread. There isn't even a link or context in the OP.

[polichick]

58. Oh, I was hoping for something like this...

<><>

[karynnj]

91. Watch his Dissent speech from April 22, 2006

It's on Johnkerry.com - under multimedia.

Then remember that in 1971, what made Kerry effective was that he was polite and good mannered and astonishingly eloquent. That was why he was able to reach people and convince them the war should be over who were not reached by Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin or other people who scared the hell out of midAmerica.

It is strange that you expect Kerry to accept behavior he would have rejected as a 27 year old when he is a 63 year old respected Senator.

[polichick]

146. Yes, but the day after the hearing...

Kerry joined hundreds of other vets in a demonstration where they tossed their medals and ribbons on the steps of the Capitol builing ~ which was seen as extremely rude and disrespectful by many. But it was powerful drama, and sometimes that's what you need to get the attention of complacent Americans.

[ProSense]

149. You're comparing Kerry's actions

during Vietnam to a silly distracting ad? The ad not its message became the focus and that helps nothing. It was ill-timed and should have focused on the report and Bush.

[polichick]

151. Lol

I'm just saying that I like the bolder Kerry of the Viet Nam years better than this cautious one ~ don't know why that should upset anyone.

MoveOn realized the vast majority of Americans would never sit through yesterday's hearing ~ the ad got the attention it was meant to get, kudos to them.

[ProSense]

152. I don't thing they realized

that the ad, not focus on the report's purpose would become the issue. Like I said, a lot of time was spent having everyone comment on the ad (with no one saying I loved it) taking away from the discussion about the real issues. Petraeus is a pawn. This is about Bush and his failed policies. Bush's name was rarely mentioned yesterday. Was that their intended purpose? I think it was an ill-timed distraction.

[polichick]

170. It was meant to reinforce the idea...

...that the administration (Bush) is not to be trusted. Polls show that most Americans don't believe the rhetoric anymore ~ the ad was timed for both the hearing and all the 9-11 bullshit that will come out of the WH.

[karynnj]

174. It was seen as powerful and solemn

from my memory. It was very serious and emotional from the footage shown on TV then. From accounts then and in 2004, Kerry had been against that action, but when it came time he threw the ribbons he wore and some medals given to him from others. The 1971 event was seen as veterans, hurt by the war, throwing away the symbols of recognition given to them. Kerry himself only said something like - he wasn't doing this to hurt anyone, but to wake up America.

This is no the same as the childish playing with the General's name. It also took attention away from the points the Democrats wanted made.

[polichick]

181. That's your opinion, many (especially in the military) found it disrespectful...

The important thing then and now is waking up America. Petraeus deserves the heat, so does Powell ~ these men and others have sold America down the river. We'll have to agree to disagree.

[ProSense]

40. Oh What BS!

I suppose the current "wait and see how others are voting" candidates have moral courage?

What hogwash!

[ShortnFiery]

53. Hello? Remember that "being polite and appropriate" does not help change history.

Kerry has changed - he's lost his spine and it's just plain sad. :(

[LittleClarkie]

77. He seemed to have it last week when he was WORKING with Moveon

Though no one here seemed to care about their efforts to organize protests all over the country.

[ShortnFiery]

127. Then Kerry needs to wake the f**k up and hold his tongue - he did not need to ANNOUNCE that he

did not support the ad. Many Good People do support it. In fact, the John Kerry of the 1960s and 70s would have, IMO, would have LOVED this ad - as it truly speaks "truth to power." Again, Kerry has lost some of his moral courage. I'm sadly disappointed. :(

[ProSense]

129. You need to wake up and realize that people answer

questions when asked.

[ShortnFiery]

132. NO, a truly adept politician like Kerry should know by now qualification and nuance doesn't cut it

especially in a 24/7 news cycle. Kerry put his foot in his mouth again. :shrug:

Again, I truly believe that The Kerry of the 1960s would not have parsed his words.

When you can't say something positive for AN ALLY, then say nothing at all.

Well, duh! It's called Teamwork 101. :(

[ProSense]

133. Put his foot in his mouth? What RW BS! He said he didn't like the ad.

Now his opinion is putting his foot in his mouth? Would you have him stand there mumbling and avoiding the question because his opinion doesn't mesh with yours? Get a grip!

It was a silly ad!

Also for the record, had Moveon asked me I would have advised them not to focus so much on Gen. Petraeus. He’s just a pawn, really, although as near as I can tell he’s playing the pawn role of his own free will. I think Robert Stein makes a valid point –

<...>

The invective of the ad against Petraeus is misplaced. He is doing his job in the way that the Commander-in-Chief has defined it. It’s that definition that is now not only causing ruin in Iraq but subverting the Constitution.

link

[ShortnFiery]

165. Yes, Kerry put his foot in his mouth. Newsflash: you don't disrespect your individual team members

We don't need "lone wolf" Senators peeling off with all these tangential opinions.

Kerry screwed up with this comment. You know that but won't allow yourself to admit it. :shrug:

[ProSense]

166. BS! What the hell team are you refering to

MoveOn is not part of Kerry's staff. VoteVets denounced the ad too. Does that make them a "lone wolf" organization? What nonsense!

He said he didn't like the ad. Accept it, that's his opinion.

[karynnj]

183. Wait a minute - Kerry has been working with the caucus on how to deal with the hearings

Turn that around - MOVEON.ORG did not consult with the Congressmen who were leading this effort. What team are they on? Given that Kerry, Durbin, Reid etc have all been making the same points for the last month - that Bush is moving the goal posts. They also arranged things that 3 independent studies were put before the public. It was not Kerry, who peeled off - it was Moveon that went off on a tangent that a 13 year old might be proud of.

Kerry praised Move,on for good things they had done - and he said he disliked the ad.

The ad is a diversion from the important points.

[karynnj]

186. The Kerry of the 1960s and 1970s

was a rather polite, well mannered, very serious guy. Do you have an example of where he played with the names of the leaders in a disrespectful way?

[LittleClarkie]

59. No, he just didn't like the ad. He has been working with moveon.org actually

I posted a couple threads on it a couple weeks ago, but they sank like a stone.

CSPAN just replayed his big anti-war speech from April 22, 2006 last week. He's been working to end the war ever since.

[beachmom]

63. Well, perhaps you can enlighten us to the time Kerry called Generals

names back in '71. He didn't then, and he's not going to start now. It's always been about the policy, and telling the truth. Name calling just cheapens the debate.

[karynnj]

88. This is not corporate anything - this is a sense of decent behavior

Kerry blasted the Republicans when they attacked other veterans. Oddly, as a Democrat running for Senate, it could take more MORAL courage to disagree with a Democratic power base like moveon.org. Sliding past the question is well within his abilities - He chose to say he thought it was wrong.

[saltpoint]

99. You don't like much of anybody, do you.

[Mass]

43. Here is what Kerry actually said, for those who care.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/index.html

"I don't like any kind of characterizations in our politics that call into question any active duty, distinguished general who I think under any circumstances serves with the best interests of our country," said Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential candidate and a decorated veteran.

"I think there are a lot of legitimate questions that need to be asked, a lot of probing that ought to take place; there's a lot of legitimate accountability that needs to be achieved. It ought to be done without casting any aspersions on anyone's character or motives," he added.

He was protesting on the form of the ad, apparently not his substance.

[ProSense]

48. Oh my, an actual statement context! n/t

[beachmom]

66. Thanks, Mass. I totally agree with what he said. I may add, that

I found the ad offensive yesterday, before Kerry had even weighed in on it.

[TankLV]

119. No fucking surprise.

Goddamn vichy dems...

[saltpoint]

123. We know you pine for the days of Kissin Jim Folsom, Hank.

You can bet Jim Folsom didn't speak no French. Durn tootin'!

[Warren Stupidity]

72. Worship of All Things Military

one of the key elements of fascism. Petraeus is just another asshole. He does not get an immunity card.

[ProSense]

73. So now you're

calling Kerry a fascist? Get a friggin grip! Kucinich voted for the Iraq Liberation Plan in 1998. Does that make him a facist?

[Warren Stupidity]

110. No I said worship of all things military is one of the key elements of fascism.

The fact that Kerry is infected with this flaw is indicative of how widespread the problem is and how fascist a society we have become. It does not mean Kerry is consciously a fascist. He could instead be just another fool.

[ProSense]

113. So I ask, again,

is Kucinich not conscious of his fascists leanings or just another fool for having voted for the Iraq Liberation Plan?

[Warren Stupidity]

118. His 98 vote was wrong.

But I am not terribly concerned about where Kerry or Kucinich stood in the past. I am real concerned about where they stand today. Today Kerry acted in a way we have come to expect from our so-called leaders: he accepted the rightwing fascist framing of the MoveOn Ad, he uttered a remark that can only be described as rank unadulterated militarism, and he paved the way for the usual bent over retreat from the Echo Chamber Noise Machine. Bravo!

[ProSense]

125. Bullshit! He didn't like the ad.

Was he acting like a fascist when he joined MoveOn in standing up for Gen. Batiste?

So Kucinich is a former fascist?

[Mass]

74. I got you, but he also said there should be accountability and said yesterday

that the report was basically irrelevant.

So, I think we are both fighting a different battle (and I am very far to be militaristic, just amazed by people who care more about a slogan than reality. Kerry and you are really similar on this point. He refuses to criticize a military man on principle (and they are sometimes worthy of severe criticism), but you are bothered on principle that somebody does not criticize them. Kind of a pointless discussion).

[grasswire]

80. that's CNN -- not Hardball

On Hardball, he said the ad was "over the top."

[Mass]

81. Yes, and this is what he said just after.

You may not have listened to the end, but this is your problem, not mine.

[zulchzulu]

102. Wow. Now this is getting complicated... the truth...

So Kerry didn't pull off his shirt and pound his chest and show his teeth and scream "IT WAS OVER THE FUCKING TOP!"...

Oh...

:thumbsup:

[beachmom]

156. Thanks! Awesome comment. Really made me laugh. n/t

[TankLV]

117. "distinguished general"!!! A PROVEN LIAR!?! Like that other piece of shit POWELL?!?!

Good god - talk about a "good german"...

Fuck Betrayus!

[montanacowboy]

46. John Kerry betrayed all of us

in 2004

Never forget it - remember he "had our backs"?

[LittleClarkie]

57. I still have his

Just surprised the hell out of a fundraiser yesterday when I stopped him mid-shpiel to ask him "is this a fundraising call?" "Yes" "Hang on. Let me get my card"

I think he thought I was about to hang up on him.

[ProSense]

54. Kerry and MoveOn

So join our friends at MoveOn.org in calling for the reinstatement of General John Batiste.


BS thread!

[ProSense]

55. Look at all the BS pile-on in a thread without a link,

and people wonder why the RW was able to take spin an innocuous statement into a friggin federal case.

It's either driven by envy, stupidity or political calculation. There is no other explanation for it.

[Mass]

61. There was a similar thread about Biden yesterday. He refused to attack Petreaus personally and

he got attacked savagely in one thread. People could not care less that , in the next sentence, he attacked Petreaus and his report and said he was dead wrong. He did not call him names, so he was wrong.

I can understand that people get nervous and tired with this mess, but may be they could listen to the end before yelling.

[Breeze54]

67. Try google!

Dems join GOP in slamming ad attacking Petraeus

GOP calls on top Senate Dem to condemn anti-Petraeus ad
http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/10/petraeus.moveon/

CNN - 5 hours ago

Sen. John Kerry, D-Massachusetts, called the ad "over the top."
"I don't like any kind of characterizations in our politics that call into question any ...

[ProSense]

71. Try this:

"I don't like any kind of characterizations in our politics that call into question any active duty, distinguished general who I think under any circumstances serves with the best interests of our country," said Kerry, the 2004 Democratic presidential candidate and a decorated veteran.

"I think there are a lot of legitimate questions that need to be asked, a lot of probing that ought to take place; there's a lot of legitimate accountability that needs to be achieved. It ought to be done without casting any aspersions on anyone's character or motives," he added.

link

[beachmom]

78. Thanks for the link, Breeze54. Exactly what is the problem?

That article reads beautifully. The GOP plays the role of the wounded whining victims crying in their soup demanding apologies, while the Dems rise above it, calling the rhetoric "over the top". Meanwhile, we get all our points in in the article, the biggest one being that the surge isn't working.

Explain to me again what the problem is.

[Breeze54]

90. I guess

ProSense didn't read my link (just like the ad in question) or like it? :shrug:

[karynnj]

95. I don't see the problem

Kerry's entire quote is there. What it does is short circuit the story. This is not the DEMOCRATS being rude, it is moveon.org. Kerry's statement criticizes the name calling, then focuses on the facts that accountability is needed and that it is right to probe the policy. Also, I doubt the irony of Kerry defending Patraeus from character slurs from political foes is delicious - the guy is consistent and more decent than his opponents.

Also, tomorrow he appears before the SFRC. This comment also will make it hard for them to paint Kerry as anything bad when he asks, as he likely will, the hardest, most persistent questions tomorrow - in an impeccably polite manner.

[beachmom]

56. This was also a question of timing.

Kerry was scheduled to do these shows based on his reasons for Petraeus being untrustworthy that were based on mature analysis.

The MoveOn ad clouded over the sound rebuttals from Kerry and others from yesterday and today.

Read about Kerry's appearance on This Week yesterday here:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/9/1582/78942

[ProSense]

68. This thread also proves

that running the ad today is distracting from the

[LittleClarkie]

When Moveon.org was trying to organize protests all over the country

Kerry was there helping. Got an email from him supporting them and directing me to find a protest in my area.

I posted about it three times, and each time it sank like a stone.

Most people seemed to not give a shit then what Moveon.org was trying to do. But Kerry did.

So now people support them and their ad today, and Kerry dares to say he didn't like it much, and that's supposed to mean that Kerry has caved, or is part of the establishment, or somesuch.

No, he just didn't like the damned ad. That's all.

He still has his spine. I loved it when he pointed out recently that the bill he introduced in the Senate would have had the troops out of Iraq by now, but he was told the country wasn't ready. "Are you ready now, or do another 1000 troops have to die" he said.

I love it when he's pissed.

[Breeze54]

92. "Most people seemed to not give a shit then what Moveon.org was trying to do."

I did but it wasn't Kerry sending me an e-mail that got me to take action. I already had.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=401&topic_id=279&mesg_id=279

But that seems to be typical here anyway. Some just like to be critical of protesters.

[LittleClarkie]

97. Good to see!

My point was just that Kerry's not against Moveon.org.

I think sometimes around here we just prefer to argue about smoking, or dog fights, or whatever is the flavor of the day.

[Breeze54]

98. He didn't read the ad!

And if he wants people to Stand Up, then so should he!!

[calteacherguy]

79. I agree. I think Patreus is a good man. nt

[ShortnFiery]

126. OMG! Have you been reading and paying attention? Come into the light.

General Peaches is a spring-butt ass kissing General Officer who serves ONLY his masters within the Pentagon and the WH. IMO, he's pond scum - the honorable General Officers have either been purged and/or resigned/retired. I'd salute my matted sheepdog before that morally bankrupt man. :thumbsdown:

[Arugula Latte]

83. Oh gawd. Doesn't Kerry have more worthy things to criticize?

:eyes:

[Cameron27]

85. Kerry was specifically asked about the ad on Hardball

he didn't go out of his way to criticize it. He gave a pretty diplomatic answer considering the hearings hadn't even started yet.

[karynnj]

96. He was asked the question - he did not volunteer this out of the blue

His answer doesn't surprise me at all - he was polite and well mannered as a 27 year old.

[Generator]

84. You know if Colin Powell

was called Colin Bowel by MoveOn and it meant "man that was supposed to stand up for the troops but didn't and sold them down the river and lied for the worst president ever and kept on lying and did nothing and how can he live with himself and it's too damn late know and he once was an honorable man" it would be RUDE but accurate.

In the words of the Dixie chicks-I'm not ready to make nice.

Does the name Westmoreland ring a bell?

Somebody learn some history.

All we do is repeat it.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/090707R.shtml

[wisteria]

94. So? You can respect an organization's goals an not always like their methods.

I happen to agree with Senator Kerry. And I will add my 2 cents. I think the ad was childish,uninformative and a waste of good money. That said, I still think Move-on is a good organization with a good goal and I might consider donating to them again in the future.

[saltpoint]

100. Good for John Kerry. Asked a timely question; gave a thoughtful response.

Excellent work, and all in a day's tasks for a great American.

[zulchzulu]

101. I love Kerry and don't have to agree with everything he says

I saw the ad. It was alright.

Get me someone in the political limelight who said they LOVED the ad.

[antiimperialist]

103. Kerry and his 47% approval can kiss my arse

Bring the troops home. All of them.

[ProSense]

105. But you praise Faux News

Good job Fox?

Are you friggin kidding me?


Here is something other than Fox Noise

[antiimperialist]

109. That was a sarcastic "praise"

I posted a sarcastic comment about Fox inviting an "unbiased" guest to discuss Petraeus' report.
That guest was Ann Coulter. Did you really think I thought Ann Coulter was an unbiased expert?

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProSense]

115. You're glad Bush is president?

I guess I can express the same sentiment to you that you're expressing to the Senator.

[saltpoint]

121. All sweetness and light as usual, Tank. Fling those carnelias!

Spread joy through Christendom!

Praise the angels you are among us!

[wisteria]

140. Only in your opinion. n/t

[kerrygoddess]

142. Maybe you missed the part where Kerry praised activists?

Watch the video:

http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2VmMmY5YjQ3YzZmMTI5ZjU1ZWI1M2ZjMjQ4ODZjYzU=

Sorry, it's on the National Review but it's the full clip. Matthews tried to tie DKos, blogers and MoveOn together. It was clear that Kerry was annoyed with Matthews and he praised the activists before making his point about the ad.

Kerry has been leading the fight against this damn war for a very long time. Let's get some perspective around here.

[Mass]

154. Here is what one of the vice-chairmen of Votevets.org had to say.

I guess they too are Vichy Democrats, sold out to the right, not fighting, ...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/11/23754/4895

[antiimperialist]

157. That vet is being a sissy

Having fought in a war does not keep one from being a sissy at a later point in life.

[Mass]

158. You are the one doing the whining, you know.

You are the one being a sissy, because you cannot accept somebody disagrees with you on a single point (this ad) and still be a solid opponent of the war.

[ShortnFiery]

161. They need to know when to keep silent. Otherwise we have No Concerted Effort/Team. nt

[Mass]

164. Or may be MoveOn could have consulted allies on an ad?

[karynnj]

185. True moveon needs to follow the Democratic leadership

Kerry is working with the Democratic leadership, Move on is not. Are you seriously saying that a senior US Senator should defer to the head of a left wing advocacy group? Who the hell elected him? Kerry can claim that he was the elected standard bearer of the Democratic party. Yet he would not claim that they have to shut up.

[LittleClarkie]

208. Where's your sarcasm smilie

why would Moveon.org and Code Pink enjoy freedom of speech, but those who would disagree must keep silent?

[Mass]

159. BTW, thanks for doing what the right wanted. Focus on the ad rather than on

the Petreaus testimony and its glaring issues...

Bye, bye.

[lojasmo]

160. Kerry and Joementum expressing angst.....good company. EOM

[ProSense]

162. Wasn't it Kerry and Ned Lamont?

In fact, Kerry was the only Senator tirelessly campaigning for Ned Lamont.

[lojasmo]

167. Kerry and Joementum allied in expressing angst over the commercial. EOM

[karynnj]

184. If I find a comment that Leiberman also likes chocolate chip cookies

will that me that the two are 100% in sync? (Kerry has often admitted his love for chocolate chip cookies.

[lojasmo]

188. Love for cookies is not appologism for Bush's lying lapdog.

Thanks for the false analogy, though.

[karynnj]

190. It's not a false analogy -

you however missed that Kerry also spoke of poking at the numbers and accountability. He was not apologizing for the General - he has been saying for at least a month not to let them change the goal posts - and that we already know the surge is not working.

The only thing he spoke against was the nasty word play. I know I was always repulsed when people posted freerepublic excerpts here and they had distorted each Democratic name - putting an s before Kerry's name or changing Hillary middle name to Rotten. I have heard it on talk radio as well - and it is sick.

If the purpose of the ad was to reach people not already convinced we need a change - it seems unlikely they will even read it - if they are immediately offended by it.

Kerry's reaction is likely based on his upbringing - I assume that even as a kid he would have been told this was not good.

[Cameron27]

191. Kerry's reaction might have been due to his upbringing

but it also might have been due to his wanting to be an effective voice at these hearings. He spoke so well today, but if he'd openly agreed with moveon, his message would have been lost in the gop's mad rush to crucify him. I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.

It was a BS tv news setup, and I'm glad he didn't fall for it.

[karynnj]

192. I think it was the right think to do for all those reasons

He also has to work with this guy because he will clearly continue to be a voice in setting Democratic policy on Iraq.

It did very nicely place him - where he usually is - on the high moral ground.

He was wonderful at the hearing today. The framing that this was comparable in its historic nature to when Westmoreland testified 40 years ago, and how policy makers knew the policy wasn't working and that half the names on the wall were from after then. Petraeus actually nodded at that point.

[Didereaux]

163. Petraeus 'borrowed' a past Generals war plan...

There is an explanation for Gen. Petraeus' Iraq Plan. It is adopted from a former Generals plan. To findout who the general was, what his plan was, and who tipped Petraeus to it. just go to this link:



All seems perfectly clear now, doesn't it? heh

more can be found at this link as well:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12461951@N03/

enjoy ;)

[Cha]

168. HOW DARE THEY

NAME CALL A FLUNKY GENERAL FOR buSHITS?!! Who is killing our Soldiers and Iraqis at the speed of light?!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

171. Over what TOP?

over the top and crossed the line? what is this nonsense. Moveon were merely pointing out something that needs to be pointed out.

Soldiers in Iraq need to realize that they are fighting for nothing (or should I say oil). Maybe they like fighting for oil?

[LittleClarkie]

193. Here's the full segment. He said he admired the protestors before his comment on the ad

It's the National Review, but it's the only link I see so far.

Nice to have the context.

http://tank.nationalreview.com/post/?q=N2VmMmY5YjQ3YzZmMTI5ZjU1ZWI1M2ZjMjQ4ODZjYzU=

[ShortnFiery]

196. So Kerry first ADMIRED "the protesters" before he CRITICIZED them.

Sounds VERY familiar. :eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

197. Where are you getting that?

I haven't had a chance to see it yet. I'm going by the synopsis I saw here when I found the link.

He ADMIRED the protesters, but didn't like Moveon's ad very much. Moveon is not the protesters, the protesters were not with Moveon.

I don't see where you get that they are the same. Kind of a stretch if you're looking for a flip flop.

He had a critical word for an organization he normally supports. What's wrong with that? Life is rarely black and white.

He helped Moveon just a couple of weeks ago with organizing protests for the end of August. I posted about it, but every time I did it sank like a stone. There weren't any fighting dogs in it, I guess, so people weren't interested.

He just didn't like the ad much, and said so. I don't like absolutely everything people do either, do you?

[Breeze54]

198. Moveon IS the protesters!!!

How could you not get that?

Kerry should've been more diplomatic.

The Move On ad IS factual and true!!

Even Biden and other Senators have said so.

And Kerry didn't 'help' organize the Step Up in September vigils at all.

He just endorsed it and used it to ask for money.

At least, that's what my e-mail said.

[karynnj]

199. Kerry is diplomatic, MOVEON was NOT

The moveon ad with the obnoxious grade school play on his name was offensive. Kerry praised some things Moveon did he criticized an ad that has offended many of the people we need to win.

Kerry's quote helped prevent it from being more of a disaster.

[Breeze54]

203. I voted for Kerry but he threw Move On under the bus

That's OK. I'll just put that in my Kerry treasure memory box. ;)

[karynnj]

209. Here's the transcrpt - this is not throwing Move On under the bus

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20723926/

And, earlier today, I asked Democratic Senator John Kerry about the ad that was put in by MoveOn.org.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: You know, I appreciate their sense of urgency, and, obviously, I appreciate deeply their commitment to a change. And they have been an important part of helping that to happen. But I believe that ad was just simply over the top, and I think it‘s inappropriate, period

----------------------------------------------------------------

You personally have said worse things about Kerry and others for less reason. Kerry certainly has a right to have an opinion on the ad.

[Breeze54]

210. He has a right to his opinion but he only read the title, not the substance,

He didn't read the whole ad, just as he didn't read the IWR.

Same shit, different day.

Levin and Biden agree with the ad and said so.

Biden just said that even though the facts were right in the ad,
he didn't want to make this an argument about stats. (paraphrasing)

[Cameron27]

201. I don't think Move On ever expected Kerry to endorse the ad,

and I don't think they're offended over what he said. They purposely hyped the headline to make a splash, and that's what they got, but unfortunately, it took the focus off Petraeus and directed it onto Move On itself. Maybe they wanted that too, who knows, but no one on their staff is naive enough to expect Kerry or any other senator to publicly embrace "betray us."

I think that if he had made a statement even close to agreeing with them, the focus would have been off Move On, off Petraeus, off Crocker, off the surge, off Iraq, off the hearings, off Bush, and plastered onto him, for days, and days, and days, and days, and days. No thanks, I prefer to have Kerry as an effective force in the senate fighting against the war.

[Breeze54]

204. Rethugs took the message off in space and usurpers enabled them but I think it's awesome!!

The rethugs haven't refuted the content, just the headline!! LMAO!!
They aren't used to being called on their bullshit!! Move On rocks!!
And Kerry, of all people, when WE defended him when the swiftboaters
and purple heart RNC attacked HIM and now... he dissed Move On!! It's Ok.
We understand,at least I do, as a former Kerry voter.

[Cameron27]

206. I don't have any problem with the ad,

and I'm glad that we have both those who can push beyond "decorum," and those who have to work within establishment rules, on our side. I think we may disagree about how effective either can be when they travel too deeply into the other's territory.

I like Kerry where he is, and I admire the way he's been fighting bush & co. I also like Move On, and expect them to fight in a completely different way.

[Breeze54]

211. That phrase makes sense, sort of... except

"work within establishment rules" isn't and hasn't
been working for Kerry or any of the other beltway Dems!

That's what they don't seem to understand, although I agree.
There are many ways to get the message out, many forms.

[karynnj]

200. He didn't criticize the protesters, he criticized an AD

You actually have praised the Senator before criticizing him. From your point of view, he likely deserved both of your reactions. In Kerry's case - he criticized an ad he found counterproductive - he is not a name caller, and wasn't even when young. He also has defended Move on and worked with them when he agreed.

[YvonneCa]

213. That's really...

...helpful. Attacking our own.

[wisteria]

202. As a military man himself, I am sure he doesn't like those who serve our country accused of being

traitors. He has suffered personally from such attacks.
Besides, the man is entitled to his opinion. Many others did not like that ad- including me.

[Breeze54]

205. Most rethugs hate the truth being shouted out!!

The ad didn't say Petraeus was a traitor.

See the ad — and the evidence to back it up:
http://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html?id=11221-2919065-kkHvDD&t=4

Rethugs HATE the truth!! lmao! Unless their the one's spinning it.

Thanks for serving. So have all my brothers and my two oldest sons.

Doesn't give me or you 'special' rights.

[wisteria]

207. It was implied by saying he was betraying us.

I agree Repubs do this sh*t all the time and they have a nerve calling out something we have done after they attacked the service of Max Cleland and John Kerry and for that matter one of their own- McCain. None the less, MoveOn could have come up with something that didn't stoop to Republican levels of personal character attacks.