An open letter to lurking Freeps/Republicans, and all at DU.

[Vektor]

Warning, this may get wordy. :-)

I recently had a pretty poignant and bittersweet experience that I wanted to address and share with all of you. I hope at least one person reading this comes away with something valuable from it.

Earlier this summer, my close friend Jennifer and I made plans to visit Washington state, and stay with an old childhood friend of hers, Jon. I had never met this friend of hers, but I knew from what she had told me that he is a lifelong Republican, and a 16+ year member of the Marine Corps, who has been to Iraq twice. Skeptical, I said "I don't want to spend my whole weekend on the defense, arguing with your conservative friend. If he's an asshole to me, I'm not going to just take it, I'll throw back."

(Aside: Though he and I had never met, she had told both of us quite a bit about the other, and we both knew full well prior to meeting that we were diametric political opposites.)

She, a lifelong Democrat who has been best friends with this guy since they were grade school, said "No, I've already talked to him about that, and there will be no political rants. We're all just going to have a good time. He's really a nice guy - I know that sounds odd, but he totally is."

Reluctantly, I agreed, still worried that the whole trip would be one long disaster.

When he picked us up at the ferry terminal, he was incredibly polite and accommodating, and I sensed an almost palpable effort on his part to do NOTHING that would imply that he was even attempting to broach any subject that MIGHT cause friction. I would have almost preferred that he just fly into a Limbaugh like rant until he combusted, rather than struggle silently to be as neutral as possible. He looked like he was in pain. I knew that we were both dying to "go there" re: The War.

Once back at the house, we all started to relax and talk about all manner of things, none of which were controversial in the least.

A few hours into the visit, however, I couldn't take it anymore.

I broke "the pact."

My friend went downstairs to make a phone call, and I turned to the guy and said, very cautiously, "I know we don't exactly, er, see eye to eye on many things, but I understand you've spent 16 years in uniform."

He gulped audibly and his eyes darted nervously toward the stairs to see if Jennifer might overhear and bust us cold.

"Um, yeah, I enlisted after high school." He borderline whispered.

"Well, personal politics aside, I do thank you for your service. My dad is an Air Force veteran, and I do admire the bravery of those who choose to serve," I said.

I thought he was going to crap himself. He stared for a moment, flabbergasted, and said "Thank you. My dad was in the service too. I have some old pictures of him in uniform, it's hard to tell us apart - well, except his pictures are dog-eared and black and white." He laughed as he got up to go into the office, and then returned with some old framed photos of his dad, who sure enough was a dead ringer for his son.

The ice was broken, and I said "I really want to know about Iraq, and what you experienced over there. There's a lot of debate between the political parties, most of it distorted and sensationalized by the mass media, but I honestly don't know anyone who has actually served in Iraq. Not a single person who can tell me face to face what they actually SAW, minus the TV spin."

Keeping in mind that I could possibly be given a very biased view of the war from this guy, I sat down and listened, prepared to have to do some serious filtering. I was actually really surprised by the sincerity of his response.

First off, I was reminded that he enlisted in the service in the summer of 1991, after the first Gulf War was coming to a close. Fueled by a genuine desire to serve, he was at that time, totally unaware, as we all were, what the future held regarding Iraq. When he got called up to go to the Middle East this time around, he was simply fulfilling his duty, regardless of how he felt about the present conflict.

Expecting a lot of glorifying of Bush's policies, and a "hard sell" on how great the war was going, I was duly shocked to hear him talk very candidly about how nice the Iraqi civilians were that he met, how he had befriended many of them, and missed them now that he was back in the states. He spoke of how sad it was that he, and many others fighting over there had a genuine desire to do some good, but had no idea how any good could possibly come of all of this now, that things had gotten so ugly, so muddled, and so out of control. He seemed, dare I say, baffled...perhaps because once he got to Iraq, he wasn't sure WHAT the mission was supposed to be after a while. He did not bash any particular policy, or politician, just bemoaned the fact that the concept of war used to be different back when his dad served. Back then, the message was clear, the mission was carved in stone, and hopefully, the cause was just. He brought up WWII and how nobody could ever possibly look at that conflict and say, "What were we doing there?" He lamented the fact that sending a bunch of troops into Iraq would not stop terrorism. Terrorist activity could happen everywhere, and anywhere, and small factions of evildoers were scattered all over the planet, not concentrated in Iraq. The threat was scattered, occult, and could not be fought in one place. It would take global cooperation, diplomacy, lot of foreign policy wonks putting their heads together to find a solution - not what's going on now.

It would take pages of text to try to reiterate everything we talked about, but it was surprising what a civil conversation two people from opposite sides of the fence could actually have when there were no pundits to stir the fire, no propaganda to distort the conversation, no anger to distract from the message - just two people, sitting on a staircase, looking at old photos of a smiling young soldier, and respecting one another's common humanity, rather than forgetting it in place of hard-line party affiliation. Finally, Jennifer did bust us having this discussion, but we assured her, we were being civil. :-)

If only more of this could go on, in more households, with more people.

In a nutshell, he and I talked about a lot of things, and chuckled over some of the stereotypes that exist vilifying both parties. We were shocked to learn that while I consider myself a dyed-in-the-wool Liberal, and he a Conservative, that we actually had a lot more in common than we had ever imagined we might.

The main gist of this story - and yes...I'm getting to it.... ;-)

...is that I want to share with all of you what I said to him in response - my take.

I asked him not to allow himself to be distracted by the talking heads on the news stations that tell him how to think, and consider themselves experts on the viewpoints of Democrats, and what motivates us. There's big business in distorting the truth, and fanning the flames, and the mass media as well as the politicians are REALLY good at doing just that. They ABHOR the thought of Liberals and Conservatives sitting down together and actually talking to each other. Because then we might realize that not everyone who is different from us is "the enemy."

Think about it. Those in power love to pit us against one another. They get great pleasure out of making sure we are pissed off at one another, afraid of each other, unable to trust one another, and unable to speak to one another. Envision a little kid trying to play one parent against one another. "Mom said I could do this." "Dad said I could do that." The kid reaps twice the rewards until the two parents get together and both realize neither said any such thing. Then the kid's in deep shit.

Political operatives are really good at this. By convincing the masses that the other side wants to "corrupt the youth" "destroy the institution of marriage" "kill precious babies" "rape the environment" "piss away your tax dollars" "take away your guns" "strip you of your civil rights" "spy on you" "nuke you" "let the terrorists win" etc. they are driving people to the ballot boxes in droves to vote against what they have been made to fear. "The other side is a bogey-man that must be stopped."

Politically neutral, at-ease people who do not feel threatened aren't as likely to show up on election day as pissed off, scared, angry people who are afraid of losing something. Those people show up, alright. And vote, they do. Often times they vote without even realizing that the real issues - the ones we ought to be worried about - were not even broached by the candidates. The voters were fed a lot of sensationalist rhetoric meant to scare them, but hardly any real substance or policy matters were touched upon. But still, the "fear voting" continues, and the open honest dialog never begins.

Don't get me wrong - I'm no Pollyanna, I KNOW there are unreasonable, corrupt, evil people out there. Some of the negative things we hear about others is sadly going to be true. But are we ALL really as bad as others would paint us to be? Or might we be surprised to learn that we've been sold a bill of goods somewhere along the line, in order to cater to the aspirations, calculations, and greed of others?

I asked this Republican soldier to remember his conversation with me next time Ann Coulter or Michael Savage told him that ALL Democrats were unreasonable and evil and bad. I promised him I'd do the same when I was told something similar on my end. (I had to be fair!) :-)

What I really want to get across to any lurking Repubs is this:

When a Democrat stands up and says "I do not support this war" it is NOT because we "hate the troops" or "want the terrorists to win". I doubt ANY Democrat feels that way - not a single one. If they do, I can comfortably say they're an idiot.

Nobody in the Democratic party wants terrorists to win anything. We want an end to this war, because we are damn tired of all the death, all the misery, all the conflict. We "support the troops" in the sense that we are sick of seeing them coming home in caskets. We are weary, appalled at the loss of American lives with no end in sight. We are tired of the death of Iraqi civilians none of whom had ANYTHING to do with the pissing contest between Saddam Hussein and the Bush family, or the incestuous relationship between American politicians and Middle Eastern oil. Our idea of supporting the troops is being "pro-life" in the global sense of the word - pro-life for all, including our soldiers, and the civilians who are dying in endemic numbers - and for what? When we say "bring the troops home now" we mean return our sons, daughters, brothers and sisters to us, AND TO YOU, alive, and in one piece.

We protest the war, not because we feel that we should let the evildoers win out, but because we sincerely believe, after much thought and consideration that staying in Iraq is NOT what will bring order to this world. It won't stomp out terrorism, it won't improve global relations, it's just not working. We tried, we've been there for four years, it's not working. We don't say this to insult or belittle those who are trying to fight the good fight. We say it because this is what the numbers are telling us. Not the pundits, not the politicians, not the reporters. The cold hard numbers of how many have died in this conflict.

We say it because we care about human life.

Every time we turn on the news and hear that more American soldiers have perished in the Middle East, it is like a part of us dies. We all collectively mourn the losses, no matter where we are on the political spectrum. When we see the pictures of those lost, the faces of our brave men and women who served and died in combat, we as Democrats, mourn them with every fiber of our being, whether those soldiers were Democrats or Republicans.

We don't ask if anyone knows the affiliation of the dead before we decide whether or not we care. We do care, trust me.

When we say "bring them home alive and soon" we mean your loved ones too. For no other reason other than we are tired of the loss of human life. There's no other motivating factor. No terrorist sympathizing, no political grandstanding, no desire to "stick it to Bush."

Politics aside, we just want this to end. For everyone's sake.

Thank you.


*Edited for weird typo that spell check missed.

[Turbineguy]

1. Recommend

early and often.

[Vektor]

3. Thanks.

I got a little choked up writing it. I hate conflict, yet I fight tirelessly to end conflict. How cyclic and ironic. :-)

[Voice for Peace]

33. Thanks, your point is at the heart of everything, not just the war and politics

Because then we might realize that not everyone who is different from us is "the enemy."

Really appreciated the story, thank you.

[Vektor]

35. You're welcome...

Thanks for the kind words.

[1monster]

2. Just sent you to the greatest page... nt

[Vektor]

4. Aw, thank you.

:hug:

[gateley]

5. K&R -

[Alamom]

6. K&R...Thank you. nm

[NanceGreggs]

7. A Fantastic story ...

... and so beautifully told!

Thanks for sharing this.

:kick: and REC'D

[Vektor]

8. I am humbled...

As you are one of the best writers out there! Thank you.

:blush:

[NanceGreggs]

25. An accolade I hardly deserve ...

... but thank you.

Your piece is just incredibly well-written. I hope it is widely disseminated, for the tale it tells is one that should be heeded by all.

Thanks again for sharing this experience with all of us.

[The Doctor.]

102. From the heart, let's hope it's heard... but why hope...

When I can get your permission to disseminate this all over the 'net?

It's the message we all need to hear; 'there are people very interested in keeping us at each-other's throats', and you give me that much more hope that us 'parents' will compare notes and bring this clever child a much needed, well-deserved, and thorough spanking.

[BeyondGeography]

9. Score one for humanity, Vektor

Beautifully done.

[Adelante]

10. Thanks so very much

You make a great ambassador for us :)

[NMDemDist2]

11. I live in a very 'red' area and most of my neighbors are good people

who love their country, their community and their family.

I won't say I haven't run into some 'Nuke em back to the stone age" Faux Noise idiots but they are the minority. a small minority.

a co-worker of mine is violently Democratic and makes no friends to our cause. I speak with compassion and pride of our military and our country and then slip in an idea or two. Most folks are very open to good information. Their lives are too busy with dance lessons and the Friday night football game and working those 60-70 hour weeks to catch more than a slogan or headline. It doesn't make them bad people, just uninformed, overworked and with their own priorities.

Wonderful story and it's my experience also.

[ginnyinWI]

151. a lot of blame goes to the politicians and pundits who stir us up.

They incite us to anger and fear and that brings out the worst in both sides. When you're on the right and made afraid of everyone and everything, you get ugly. When you're on the left and are made frustrated and angry, you get ugly.

I think of the two, fear is the more damaging emotion. And from the president on down, they all seek to scare us. Those on the right are very susceptible, and those on the left are simply angered by what we see them trying to do to us. It is so true that this only benefits the extremists on both sides who are stirring things up.

[knitter4democracy]

12. I've had similar conversations. You're absolutely right.

As Americans, we're stronger together than we are apart. Those in power don't want us together--that's threatening to their power. It's sad.

[Vektor]

13. I think you're right.

And I do realize there are "radicals" on either end of the spectrum, and those people can be vicious and impossible to reason with, but most people really do genuinely care about humankind. Most can be reasoned with if you just sit down face to face and talk with them as human beings. Sometimes, you even find out they aren't what you thought they'd be.

[lips]

42. Touching example of

the ways in which true, real time communication is the most effective thing that has been created. Well, EFFIN, done. Had a similar experience at the Denver airport bar. Those damn Marines and their ciggie cravings. Ended up picking up more smokes on 2 separate occasions. Definition of peaceful resistance.

[Vektor]

45. Airport bars can be fun...

...welcome to DU!! :patriot:

[randr]

14. Thank you and a heads up for all who

heard that your new friend feels compassion for the Iraqi people.
This is something I find lacking in all the talk of "immediate withdrawal".
The fact is, this unjust and illegal war has created consequences that are effecting real people.
A planned and careful withdrawal IS necessary to insure the safety of the Iraqi people and to ensure that the few good things that have occurred are not lost.
As usual the debate will require both sides to find the middle ground.
Thanks again for sharing your experience.

[phaseolus]

15. There should be a 'greatest ever' page

...for posts like this one. Thanks for taking the time to put this down...!

[Vektor]

18. I wish that too...

There have been so many amazing posts here - some of which have made me laugh out loud or sob like a baby. I wish they were archived in one spot for all of us to be able to refer back to. Ya know, if we want to laugh maniacally sometime, or have a pre-planned crying jag. ;-)

[jillan]

16. You still rock Vektor!

Thanks for sharing.

[Arkansas Granny]

17. Beautifully written. Thanks for sharing this with us.

[Missy M]

19. Thank you Vektor......

what a wonderful post. Everyone should read it. It's the best thing I've read on DU in a long time.

[sandnsea]

20. Best commentary this year

Maybe this decade. This is exactly what I experience with most Republicans I talk to, on a variety of topics from guns to immigration to war. It is the professional disrupters who distort and spin that are ripping this country to shreds. It's very sad. Thanks for taking the time to share this. I hope you'll copy it and post it around because it needs repeating as often as possible.

:hug:

And you better not tell me you drove up the coast and didn't stop and say hello. x(

[Vektor]

22. Naw, I flew...

I did wave to you from the airplane, though. :hi:

[tom_paine]

21. Yes, if only...

[Vektor]

23. True, if only...

It's a tall order.

One conversation at a time, I guess. :shrug:

[yodermon]

24. cool, an "anti-rant"!

:) thanks for that.

[Vektor]

62. To be honest...

I occasionally love a good rant, but today, I felt like doing the opposite. :-)

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

26. What a beautiful post. How true, all of us are in this together.

As much as we do in cyberspace, nothing replaces civil and respecful conversation and connecting.

I'll say again, what a beautiful post. :-) :toast: MKJ

[Malidictus Maximus]

27. Great post

Should be required reading for the childish name callers on both sides. Just want to slap people who can't call the other side by their full and proper names and likewise for parties. Even Churchill called him "Mr. Hitler'. . And yes, President Bush is a jerk for calling us the 'Democrat party' but that doesn't excuse those who call him 'chimpy', etc.
There is never, ever and excuse for vilifying or dehumanizing those we disagree with, it accomplishes NOTHING.

[Vektor]

29. I know...

And I can't say that I haven't been guilty of it myself. I've made some pretty nasty comments about others, and many times, it was just due to general frustration over the state of the world, and I got personal because I didn't know exactly how to express my frustration.

I'm trying to clean up my argument a little these days. I guess I have been offended myself at the broad brush generalizations and nasty remarks that some Republicans have made about Democrats, and I told myself that I had to try to extend the same respect I was asking for.

I don't always manage to stay civil, but I'm working on it, and believe it's really the best way. You CAN be civil without being a doormat, and you can disagree with out being nasty. You can be assertive without being aggressive.

Like I said, I'm working on it. :-)

[Baby Snooks]

119. Exceptions to the rule...

There are always exceptions to the rule but my personal experiences and observations at this point lead me to one conclusion.

Republicans = Evil.

[Malidictus Maximus]

139. Exceptions or not

If we are trying to reach moderates who usually vote Republican then verbage like 'Repukes' Rethugs' 'General Betrayus' and the like are counterproductive. If someone would rather call names than win votes by behaving like an adult citizen even, and PARTICULARLY when the other side doesn't, it is sad and needless.
I would bet that there are many Republicans embarrassed by Ann Coulter or Bill O'Rielly, too.

[Stump]

141. Great point...

Hate is not going to win over anyone.

[Vektor]

163. Welcome to DU!

Hi, Stump! :hi:

[saracat]

28. Vector.How beautiful.I wish we had millions of you!

[Vektor]

30. Oh, lord, I think one's enough.

:-)

Hahaha....Thanks. :hug:

[saracat]

31. But think how overpowering the Vektors could be to a certain gentleman! Hee! hee!

And we could use some more of certain others as well!others !:loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya: :loveya:

[babylonsister]

32. Thank you for sharing, Vektor, and also for being such a great writer! nt

[stlsaxman]

34. Bravo! n/t

recommended!

[rockymountaindem]

36. Geez, what a post.

Nice to see in a week when everybody's getting their two minutes of hate in.

[Skittles]

37. I email with Marines and troops in Iraq and Afghanistan

they'll reply back to me thanking me for a care package and we will start chatting. I leave politics out of it until they say something disparaging liberals - I tell them, CAREFUL, I AM THE BIGGEST LIBERAL IN TEXAS. It always floors them because it smashes the ridiculous stereotypes they have been fed by, well, EVERYONE.

[Vektor]

38. I know, and it's awful.

I have heard of this too - a form of brainwashing of enlisted personnel to convince them that the "evil liberals" are to be hated and avoided at all costs.

I wonder why this is? Is it because they do not want any form of doubt about the war to reach the ears of the soldiers? Does our military not realize that the liberals are fighting to protect military benefits, provide proper armor, and save the lives of those caught up in this quagmire overseas? That we desperately want them brought home safely, no matter how badly they have been conditioned to hate us?

I know not all the soldiers get caught up in this, but many of them do, and it's a shame.

Keep talking with these soldiers, and keep sending the care packages. The actions of a REAL LIVE DEMOCRAT are bound to sink in past whatever unfortunate propaganda they are being fed.

Seeing that you actually care might make all the difference in the world. Even if you only reach ONE soldier, it's worth it.

Edited to add: Through what media are you chatting with them and sending these care packages? How could others who want to help do the same? Is there a particular website you went through?

[Skittles]

41. repukes have hijacked what it means to be liberal

we need to take it back

[Vektor]

43. Isn't that the truth?

I have always equated Liberal with "generous". They are synonyms, right? And all I, as a liberal, have ever wanted to do was help people, and do good. I am shocked when I hear comparisons of Liberals to "commies" and "sinners". I was raised by Liberals, and we're not "sinning commies", we're soldiers, and nurses, and humanitarians.

[Skittles]

54. yup

everything decent and good in America was brought to us by LIBERALS - that's the way I see it

[MBS]

39. Wonderful, thanks! n/t

[ecstatic]

40. But, did he eat ALL the food?

That is the burning question. :hide:

[Vektor]

44. Tee-hee...is that question directed at my OP?

I'm not sure I get it...

(I might be having a slow day...) :-)

[ecstatic]

50. LOL Sorry. Nice post, but I couldn't resist sneaking in

a reference to Edwards comments:

"What I’ve heard him {Obama} talk about is hope & giving the opponents a seat at the table. My view is, you give them a seat at the table, they eat all the food! You cannot compromise with these people. They are very, very good at what they do. And When you negotiate with them, they win. You have to beat them. You have to take them on. You have to bring America with you in the effort. But you have to beat them. It’s the only way you can actually be successful."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3479241

[Vektor]

51. Oh, hahahah...ok, now it makes sense.

That's pretty funny, actually.

But no, he actually took us all out to dinner and paid!! So it was all good...

:rofl:

[TayTay]

46. Hey Lady, nice work

We used to call this "doing God's work."

Nice to see that there are still a few folks out there doing it.

You rock kiddo.

[Vektor]

47. Whoa, thanks!

I'm ready to do a little more of God's work this December.

I hope the reward is a frothy pint o' Guinness. :-)

[Vilis Veritas]

48. You show a great deal of respect;

Something that is sorely missing of late. Perhaps, if the world practiced respect more often it would be a different place.

Peace.

[Vektor]

77. Peace back at ya!

:hippie:

(Thanks for the kind words...)

[Martin Eden]

49. that was a GREAT post

Sincerely, I wish everyone in this country would read it.

If I could save up a month of K&R's and award them all to one post, I would award them here.
:yourock: :toast:

I agree with your observation that the powers-that-be are intentionally trying to polarize the American people against each other -- it's a classic divide and conquer strategy that subverts the principles upon which our great nation was founded.

[Breeze54]

52. Very nice

but I want them out and I protest the "war" on IRAQ because we had
no right, as a country, to invade Iraq for what some Egyptian terrorists did!!

Afghanistan is a completely different story.

I'm glad you both connected. People are people and I suspect, with the
exceptions of BO and AC, most will be reasonable, if you catch them alone. ;)

[Vektor]

58. I hear you - I definitely do.

And yeah - huge difference between Iraq and Afghanistan.

[liberalsoldier5]

147. As a think Jon Stewart once said...

the reasons we went in (original sin) are irrelevant now. We're now fighting the war they said we'd be fighting in 2003. (Now al Qaeda actually IS in Iraq.)

To me, personally, arguing that we should pull out because the reason to go in the beginning was false is just plain absurd. It's like finding out that the attack on Fort Sumter was staged and arguing that the North should drop everything and leave the battlefield back in the Civil War days.

My "opposition" to the Iraq War is simple: it's the wrong place to fight terrorism and it's making al Qaeda stronger.

(Great Original Post by the way!!!)

[beachmom]

53. K & R. Awesome post, Vektor! n/t

[rox63]

55. A K& R for your wonderful post, Vek

:hi:

[tandot]

56. I logged in just to recommend your post. Thanks, Vektor

I've not logged in for over 2 weeks, just reading DU when I have time.

:hi:

[Vektor]

59. Aww, thanks!

Cute pup in your avatar. Is that your dog?

[tandot]

84. Thanks, he is my doggie Leo - a chug

A chihuahua-pug mix :hi:

[Vektor]

87. He is SO CUTE.

I have never seen a chug before. How adorable!

[connecticut yankee]

57. Beautiful post

Thanks for sharing it.

[blackspade]

60. Excellent!

Thanks Dude! Great post.

Sums up my general feelings about the conflict among Americans over the war perfectly.

[Flatulo]

61. Best post I've seen in a long time...

It's worth repeating that there are people who make a damn good living keeping Americans at each other's throats.

[rosesaylavee]

63. Liked this part

"...The kid reaps twice the rewards until the two parents get together and both realize neither said any such thing. Then the kid's in deep shit."

Looking forward to the 'kids in deep shit' part.

Excellent post. Thanks! :thumbsup:

[Vektor]

64. Thanks!!

And to be honest, I tried that a few times as a kid.

Ended up in deep shit, for sure. :-)

[rosesaylavee]

65. I think we all tried it... just so amazing to watch it working for this

crowd of criminals. Surely most of America will catch on soon... would dearly love to watch the deep shit happen.

[TheDoorbellRang]

66. Beautiful. Thank you.

K&R

[Vektor]

67. Thank YOU!

And a hearty welcome to DU! :hi:

[GoddessOfGuinness]

68. You're the victor, Vektor!

I just had to say that...

Seriously, that's a beautifully written post. I wish someone would read it to the mass media. :yourock:

[Colobo]

69. Good stuff. Recommended.

[FredStembottom]

70. Beautiful!

And bigger than DU. I hope this circulates all over the internets, Vektor.

I am a blue collar worker - so my adult life has been spent surrounded by "dittoheads". The type of discussion you had has been possible, at times, where I work.

I would like everyone to wake up in the wonderful way you describe - free from the radio hate mongers that set out years ago to radicalize and divide this nation - because with global warming to deal with, this kind of division is pure luxury now.

Your the best, V!:patriot:

[ladym55]

71. Thanks for the excellent and moving post

In these crazy times of name-calling and badgering, your story is very moving and very important.

(and it didn't seem at all long!)

[swimmernsecretsea]

72. That was absolutely beautiful.

Every word was needed. Not wordy at all.

[minnesota_liberal]

73. Jennifer has good taste in friends. Thanks for sharing!

It's a great story and an excellent reminder of how civil dialog is possible when we look for common ground and avoid inflamatory language.

[BigBearJohn]

74. We need more people thinking like this -- to end the division. Sending to my GOP friends.

[Vektor]

76. Thanks, BigBearJohn...

I wish I had the opportunity to talk to more people like this - seriously.

I used to live in a really "red" area, and if I wanted to have friends, at least some of them had to be Republican - there were not too many Dems to choose from. All the Republicans I met really liked me, (despite themselves) not because I agreed with everything they said, (I didn't) but because I actually listened to them, and if I was to express my disagreement, I did it civilly. Mind you I was never a doormat or a centrist, but I spoke in a civil manner. If it was a topic I KNEW I'd get hotheaded about, I'd brace myself and deep breathe a little before speaking. I made some great friends and even found some common ground with some of those folks. If the topic was too inflammatory, and both parties knew it could get ugly, we'd tread lightly there.

Whenever I was tempted to get angry, I'd tell myself, "While I do not agree with what this person is saying, their opinion is as important to them as mine is to me. They are as convinced that they are right as I am. At the end of this discussion, we will both walk out of here with the same convictions we walked in with, and being nasty won't change that."

Once I accepted that, it was pretty easy to talk shop with those on the other side of the "divide."

[BigBearJohn]

162. You truly are brilliant. You offer some very wise and creative solutions.

If you were running for office, I would vote for you immediately.
Wish I knew more people like you -- this world would sure be a
better and happier place.

Reminds me of the old saying, "You can disagree without being
disagreeable."

[Vektor]

164. Thanks, my friend...

I was having a little bit of a bummer day today. (General stress, work stuff...) Your kind words are a boost. :-)

[BigBearJohn]

168. Cheers!

:hug:

[politicasista]

75. K&R

Great post and story. :hi:

[MadHound]

78. Good on you, and welcome to my world

I live in a very red county in a red state, out in the rural boonies. The people out here are conservative, to some extent or another, but the main thing is that they are people. We laugh, we talk about sports, and cattle and crops and all the normal things friends and neighbors talk about. Sure, they know my politics and I know theirs, but when we talk we're polite and civil, and actually find much in common with each other. If there are areas of friction, we agree to disagree. And every now and again I throw out something that they find makes sense, and they adapt it. But mainly, we're just neighbors and friends.

I think that it has been a deliberate strategy that has been set up to divide us, liberals vs. conservatives, urban vs. rural, red vs. blue, etc. etc., set in motion to keep us snapping at each other's throats rather than going after our common enemy, the corporatists, the monied and well off, those well heeled in power. Divide and conquer, that's what's happened to us.

I'm glad that you found out this fact, let's hope more do. It would actually help our country, not harm it.

[Vektor]

89. Amen...

It's kind of insulting when you think about it. How many unscrupulous folks have profited somehow by playing on Americans' fears and deliberately planting seeds of hate to turn us against one another.

All of us are pawns in the game that these corrupt individuals are playing.

[ProSense]

79. Really wonderful post!

There are a lot of Americans out there who have erased the line of divisiveness when it comes to Iraq. It's really easy to see the change when you work among conservatives. From where I stand, I see Iraq as the result of stubbornness by the president and Congress. If they followed the will of nearly 70% of Americans, a solution to end the carnage in Iraq would have long been found.

Thanks for sharing.

[pnwmom]

80. The reason this conversation went so well

is that you are a great communicator and a natural diplomat.

Thank you for the post. I'll be passing it along.

[SeattleGirl]

81. Excellent post.

Thank you.

[AZBlue]

82. Proud to be your 100th Recommend!

:D

[Vektor]

85. Whoa!!

I have never had this many reco's on anything, I don't think.

I'm in shock.

:wow:

[calimary]

83. Happy to be your NINETY-FIFTH rec! Holy Cow!

Well deserved!

:toast: :applause: :yourock: :headbang:

I'm glad I read this, because I suffer from that knee-jerk anger reflex - over what extremists on the other side, and caterwauling hate-radio mavens try to provoke in us.

I wanted to do my own show at one time. I liked doing uplifting things and personal growth and health and fitness stuff, and even anti-aging stuff. An expert told me that it wouldn't fly because you had to be controversial. THAT was the only way to get an audience and get ratings and justify being on the air. It wouldn't be appealing to some cable outfit or other production house if there wasn't lots of fiery controversy, tumult, and hard, sharp, pointy edges. For some reason, I just didn't have it in me to stir things up like that. It felt out of my element and a lot more work (including psychically) Of course, I'm a REAL Doris Day here, aren't I? :P

Anyway, thanks so much for this parable. I need to read stuff like this and be reminded. This nightmare, that I think started when the "backbench bombthrowers" coming in with ronald reagan decided to amp it up, and demonize, demonize, demonize for the sake of gaining the upper hand. Divide and conquer. Make sure everybody gets worked up with a big-ass case of the vapors, so that we're all at each other's throats.

We're SO wounded as a nation, as a people. And all the rot coming at us liberals and Dems has sometimes taken me to my own nasty place. That's why posts like yours, stories like yours, are SO valuable.

Thanks for sharing this. You are a force for enlightenment. Truly from The Side of The Light.

Kicked, Rec'ed and Bookmarked. I want to be able to find this again. :hug:

[jillan]

86. Just look at you - 100 recs!

:toast:

[Vektor]

88. I think I just peed a little.

Tee-hee...I had no idea so many people would have the patience to read this entire long winded story.

[jillan]

98. Hmmm - we might need to get ahold of Lisa Nowak -lol

You always did have a talent for writing.

Especially hiakus!

[earth mom]

90. Nice post...but....

I can't help but think of how Rosie O'Donnell bent over backwards to be Elisabeth Hasselbecks friend on The View, while in the end, Elisabeth didn't give a damn about Rosie and sold Rosie's a$$ down the river to the extreme delight of Faux News, Bill O'Lielly, the freepers, and the rest of the thugs.

IMO, there are too many hard core rethugs out there who will never change and who will never ever change their view of Democrats. Trying to bridge the gap is just a waste of time.

They have to hate us-instead of themselves.

[AZBlue]

91. Of course there are a few.

There are some bad Dems too. Does that make us all worthless? Of course not.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

92. I have rarely looked at connecting with fellow travelers in this life as a "waste of time".

You and I look at things a bit differently, no doubt.

MKJ

[earth mom]

93. Hmm, sounds like a politely worded swipe at me-nice "connecting" you've got going on. Not.

FYI-For years on another message board I was on before I came to DU, I tried to "connect" with the rethugs there. Yup, I bent over backwards to try and get them to "understand" us democrats. After the election of '04 was stolen, I finally realized that they were a lost cause and that they didn't give a damn about anyone but themselves. That's why I'm very cynical and jaded about diehards rethugs changing anytime soon.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

94. I'm talking the face to face kind of connecting. People are people, after all.

MKJ

[Vektor]

97. True, some are hardcore...

and if they're really that nasty, I call it a day and end the dialog. Bridging the gap between reasonable people is one thing, but if they are abusive or in "attack mode" I don't humor them by continuing the discussion.

[countmyvote4real]

95. So, who converted whom?

In other words, which one of you is now most likely to vote for a “progressive” (or a Democratic) candidate?

OR

Which of you is now most likely to vote for a “conservative/libertarian” (various forms of this lack a dedicated political party) candidate?

I don’t get where you and Jon left off. (OMG, have I just become a willing participant in a reality blog? I didn’t read all the posts.)

[Vektor]

96. Naw, not much in the way of conversion, I'm afraid.

We just had a really good discussion, and found that we actually had pretty similar views on the conflict in Iraq. I just didn't paraphrase all of it because we'd be here for HOURS.

No drama ensued, though. :-)

I'm pretty he'll still vote Republican, and I'll always vote Dem.

[countmyvote4real]

101. I guess that is as good as it gets sometimes.

BTW, I really want to thank you for how well you described the situation. It's good to know the opposition and for them to know us.

[Lugnut]

99. K&R and thank you

You said it far more eloquently than I could.

[fooj]

100. Commonalities.

Your story fills me with hope. Thank you.

[BlueStater]

103. I understand what you're saying and admire that

But I just want to say that while I have no problem with most Republicans, I have no interest at all in making amends with people who call me a traitor and accuse me of hating this country.

[Vektor]

112. I understand that...

I mentioned in a few other posts that if the person I'm trying to talk to is abusive or unreasonable, I don't bother to try to continue the dialog. I have no desire to cater to someone who can't be civil.

[Cameron27]

104. Thank you

You're a wonderful writer, but more importantly, you have a great heart.

Recommend

[MirrorAshes]

105. This brought a tear to my eye.

If only Americans could just be that- Americans. While I do put about 99% of the responsibility of the division and hate-mongering on the republicans, you have to step back every once in a while and remember that deep down they are just people, people who are being manipulated by their own party. Much of it is indefensible and unforgivable, but the true blame lies in the ones who actively participate in the distortion of reality--those that who would never say it out loud, but are in fact fully aware of the deceitful game they are playing. They are the ones who truly deserve our scorn. For the others, they merely deserve to be kept in a seperate category. The blissfully ignorant, the well meaning but misguided, perhaps even the brainwashed dittoheads who are simply too closed minded to see the truth, they at least deserve to retain their claim as an American, and a human. You may want to take them by the shoulders and shake some sense into them sometimes, but perhaps somewhere along the line they'll encounter a scenario akin to the one told so eloquently here tonight. I root for them, I really do. We, as a people tied together by geography and treading on thin ice red states and blue alike, are facing real challenges in this world that cannot be accomplished by a populace locked in a cold civil war.

[Seabiscuit]

106. Dupe.

[Seabiscuit]

107. But... Republican politicians ARE bogeymen that must be stopped!!!

[shaniqua6392]

108. Proud to give you rec #136!!!

Excellent story that gives me hope of future peace. Thank you.

[BeliQueen]

109. wordy yet readable

There are some rants that I give up on in the middle. This one I read to the end because it was well written and concise.

Thanks for a wonderful post.

[raccoon]

110. These two paragraphs are the heart of your posting:

"Think about it. Those in power love to pit us against one another. They get great pleasure out of making sure we are pissed off at one another, afraid of each other, unable to trust one another, and unable to speak to one another. Envision a little kid trying to play one parent against one another. "Mom said I could do this." "Dad said I could do that." The kid reaps twice the rewards until the two parents get together and both realize neither said any such thing. Then the kid's in deep shit.

Political operatives are really good at this. By convincing the masses that the other side wants to "corrupt the youth" "destroy the institution of marriage" "kill precious babies" "rape the environment" "piss away your tax dollars" "take away your guns" "strip you of your civil rights" "spy on you" "nuke you" "let the terrorists win" etc. they are driving people to the ballot boxes in droves to vote against what they have been made to fear. "The other side is a bogey-man that must be stopped."

Divide and conquer...it works.

thanks for your post.

[racaulk]

111. A beautiful story with a simple, yet powerful, message.

Thank you for sharing this story with us. I just hope that someone "across the aisle" will read it and hear the message.

K&R

:yourock:

[Vektor]

113. I hope so too...

We'll see. ;-)

[The Wizard]

114. Some have an interest in

making us a me society by dividing us over half truths and outright lies. They are Machiavellians. Real patriots believe in a we society wherein we watch each other's backs for the benefit of all.
The Machiavellians win when we fail to critically think.

[humbled_opinion]

115. Your Post should be read before Congress...

Maybe then they would see past the politics of the situation and solve the problem in a united fashion... Thats exactly what America really needs/wants.

[againes654]

116. You hit the nail on the head with that one!!

You made me cry!! :cry: A good cry though. One filled with hope that all isn't lost. There are still good decent people out there. It doesn't matter if we are Democratic or Republican, Christian or Jewish, black or white or brown or green.

Thank you, I needed that this morning!!!!:hug:

[OwnedByFerrets]

117. K & R

[doclotus]

118. A Glimmer of Hope...

Thanks for sharing this. I have a few friends from the other side of the aisle similar to what you've experienced. If we can get back to a place where there is a genuine dialogue like this one, instead of the talking points from the media, I think we can get this country back on track.

Thanks again for sharing this.

Doc

[Vektor]

121. Thank you, and welcome to DU!!

I'm proud to be your first post! :hi:

[Kajsa]

124. Welcome to DU, Doc.

You found a great introduction to DU, here!

:hi:

[A-Long-Little-Doggie]

120. Excellent post! k&r n/t

[lisby]

122. Thank you, brother.

Now let it be so.

:toast:

[Vektor]

165. I'm a "sister".

But :toast: just the same. :-)

[Kajsa]

123. Thank you, Vector

for reminding us that we have more in common with
our neighbors on the other side of the aisle that we realize.

This is beautiful.

:pals:

A big K&R.

:kick:

[wordpix]

125. I spoke with Iraq vet soldiers at DC's Air&Space Museum & thanked them for their service

These guys were handsome, fit and in their prime, and my tears welled up just looking at them, thinking they might get their arms and legs blown off, or be dead on their next tour of duty. They appreciated being thanked. I said I'm sorry they had to go to Iraq but they said, don't be sorry, we like helping the Iraqi people and think we're doing some good for them. They also said they don't want to take sides in the political battle raging around them regarding keeping the troops there for another month, year or decade. They said they just had a job to do and they don't mind doing it. I again thanked them and asked them to be careful next time around. It was really hard to hold back my tears.

Seriously, these guys are the best. They're brave, positive and not thinking of themselves much but of helping people less fortunate, caught in the midst of civil war as they are.

[Vektor]

156. Yes - exactly.

That is what this soldier was saying to me too. He was trying to stay out of the political divide and just do some good. He did say "Some of the Iraqi citizens are glad we're there, and wanted Saddam out. Others see us as occupiers, and destroyers of the world they knew. I don't want to destroy any innocent civilian's world, but I can see why they might feel that way. They're in a war zone after all."

He really did seem genuinely like he wanted to do a noble deed, not attack anyone.

[KG]

126. useless gesture. waaaay too many words for a freeper to read.

and many of them are polysyllabic! :hi:

[riona]

127. Thank you for taking the time to post this

I truly wish there we're more of our citizens at home who would open their eyes and minds instead of blindly accepting the administration's policies. Goodness knows, the information is out there. I suspect many of our men and women in Iraq feel the way your friend does. How frustrating it must be.

"The war in Iraq has as much to do with terrorism as the administration has to do with compassion. " Julian Bond

[grace0418]

128. This is such an excellent response to the thread about hating all Republicans.

I'm not calling the poster out by saying that, because I struggle with those feelings myself, but to sit down and read this makes me realize how destructive such feelings are. Thank you.

[Love Bug]

150. Thank you. I was just thinking the same thing myself.

This was a brilliant post. I thinks he's right -- the powers that be are invested in keeping us divided and not talking to each other. When it comes down to it, when we're not being influenced by the talking heads and pundits, we really do have more in common than not.

[Vektor]

157. I honestly did not see that thread.

I wasn't responding to anyone else's posts, I had actually wanted to write about this since it happened a few months ago, but wasn't "ready." I couldn't really find the words to describe how I felt about the whole thing until yesterday. Then it just sort of all came together in my head, and I just sat down and started typing.

[grace0418]

166. I'm sorry Vektor, I didn't mean to imply you were literally responding to that thread,

just that it made for an excellent response. And it was very well-written as well! :hi:

[Vektor]

167. Oh...ok...

I wasn't sure one way or another if you thought it was a direct response... I guess I never saw the thread you meant though. :shrug:

Oh, well...thank you for the kind words! :toast:

[grace0418]

169. You're welcome. Here is a link to the thread

I was referring to in my previous post. Again, I want to say that I'm not trying to call the OP out because I understand her angst. I really do. Your post makes me want to try harder not to hate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x6919882

[virgdem]

129. Thank you..

for putting into heartfelt words so articulately what we all feel her at DU about this war and the political conflict that exists in this country. I hope that at least some right wing lurkers read this and think about what you have stated so eloquently.

[jackster]

130. with tears I think you for this Vektor

you have eloquently described what it is to be against this insane war

[WebeBlue]

131. You nailed it. Quoting you

"but it was surprising what a civil conversation two people from opposite sides of the fence could actually have when there were no pundits to stir the fire, no propaganda to distort the conversation, no anger to distract from the message - just two people, sitting on a staircase, looking at old photos of a smiling young soldier, and respecting one another's common humanity, rather than forgetting it in place of hard-line party affiliation."

(I wanted to add a recommend, and you said what needs to be said, so your own words mirror my thoughts, just wish neither side had bought into this divisiveness strategy - it has cost everyone more than I think they really wanted to pay)

[Gamey]

132. There goes your career in politics!

Well done.

[frogcycle]

133. excellent - and may I add a similar experience

mine will be short -

I went to a local funeral home when they were having visitation for a soldier killed in Iraq.
I joined with the Patriot Guard Riders, standing in their honor guard and holding one of their flags (they welcome walk-ups)

I chatted with the guy next to me - he was a member of PGR. We both made our politics clear at the outset, with just a comment or two - not confrontational, more like just telegraphing identity. He felt that "fighting them over there" was a valid purpose; I did not.

We then discussed, quite civilly, the lack of clear mission, the abusive nature of what the troops are being put through.

I believe he was rather stunned to have conversed with a "wild eyed liberal" who was not frothing at the mouth, not dressed in tie-dye, and had a military haircut.

He had to leave after about a half hour; when he left he shook my hand, said he was glad to have met me and shared points of view, thought we had both gained something to think about. I doubt that he went home and "converted" but perhaps a seed was planted.

[Vektor]

158. Exactly - and that's what it's all about.

Just listening to what others have to say, even if you don't agree, can be a learning experience. Definitely the case when the exchange is civil and respectful.

[Catherine Vincent]

134. How did I miss this one? Very good post!

It is how most of us liberals feel. :thumbsup:

[glitch]

135. You are wise beyond your years. Thank you for this generous post. K & R nt

[Raejeanowl]

136. Beautiful

We need all of us, the energies, passions and talents, of all of us, to put the country right again, and we have to get past the labels and stereotypes so everyone can make their contribution.

I grew up believing that's what Democracy was about. Can it still be?

[Vektor]

159. I certainly hope so.

Wouldn't that be nice? Everyone might not follow suit, but even if MORE people would, that would be a start.

[Luftmensch067]

137. Beautiful story!

Thanks so much for posting this, Vektor! Your post will stay with me forever because of the evocative writing and the full heart that composed it (and because I've bookmarked it :-))

Sharing conversations like this with us does a lot to spread peace and healing.

I hope especially that veterans will be able to have more conversations like this with those of us at home. We need to hear what they've seen and they need to know that we want to listen -- as you did, with an open mind and without politics. From one human being to another.

Your point about political and media figures who try to divide us brings to mind the words of that timeless sage, the esteemed Dr. Seuss, regarding the Sneetch Problem:

until neither the Plain nor the Star-Bellies knew
whether this one was that one or that one was this one
or which one was what one... or what one was who.

Americans (and all people everywhere!) have much more in common than anything that divides us.

[CarinKaryn]

138. Good on you for reaching out.

Maybe you helped soften his heart just a little.
Too bad most of them are unreachable and not worth the effort. But good job for taking the time with one that has potential.

[krispos42]

140. Wow, up six more votes while I was reading it!

Then, of course, I recommended it. :-)

Excellent job!

[Guava Jelly]

142. bravo!!!!

And thank you!!!
fyi it really choked me up reading this..
K&R

[GTurck]

143. I could kiss you...

I could kiss you for your common sense and way with words. I have been trying to say the same thing. We must stop the madness foisted on us by those who benefit from the mayhem. I am a little old for you but I could kiss you for being a thoughtful and caring young man.

[Vektor]

160. Hahah - I'm not a young man...

I'm a young LADY. ;-)

[GTurck]

170. Sorry!!!

Well then I could kiss you as a grandma kisses her favorite granddaughter.

[Vektor]

172. Awww.

Thanks! :hug:

[Ignis]

144. K&R. Thanks for the clear-headed approach! (nt)

[BrklynLiberal]

145. Wow. I just made the 200th rec. Your post is superb. So much could be accomplished if the PEOPLE

would sit down and talk to each other.

Hate and fear those who you do not know. To quote Rodgers and Hammerstein: "You've got to be carefully taught".

Did anyone hear the NPR program -"This American Life", this past Sunday. An Iraqi vet told his story about joining the Muslim student organization when he came back to the states and went to college so as to change his negative mindset about Muslims. It was AMAZING!!!!

It seems to be so obvious that those in power tend to benefit from the status quo..both financially and by keeping their power intact.
Conflict helps those in power and does nothing for those whom those in power "inspire" to actually go to war.

I believe that another example of this is the Israeli/Palestinean conflict. The actual people would prefer peace. It is the power mongers that benefit from the conflict, as is true here in the US.

DIVIDE AND CONQUER applies just as well to politics as to actual war.

I believe that is why those in power are so against face to face meetings of those with opposing views...why they refuse to let those with opposing views to even come to the rallies of the "faithful"...heaven forbid there might be some civil conversation and someone might hear something that touches them.


:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Trajan]

146. One of the best DU posts .... ever ....

As one with two RW brothers .... we have always known our commonalities bound us more than the policies that differentiated us .....

I hope that BOTH sides to heart, especially per your discussion of those who make a killing on exacerbating our differences .... FUCK the media .....

Thanks for this - K&R (200+)

[Uncle Joe]

148. Outstanding post, Vektor!

Thanks you:applause:

[klook]

149. Please submit this for print publication somewhere major

This is a *great* piece of writing, and much needed at this time. I admit I'm often guilty of dissing all Republicans, but it's also true that I know, like, and respect some Republicans. (I'll like and respect them a lot better if they stop being Republicans! }( ) The whole country needs to read this. Great job.

[RavensChick]

152. What a great story!

This is what free speech is all about, and this is the best example! Thanks for sharing!

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

153. Bravo! I am pleased to be rec. #217!

Thank you for posting this beautiful story!

Well done.

[Politicub]

154. Thank you for sharing this!

It's powerful stuff.

[roxnev]

155. It was such a lovable writing

I will go out and vote Republican, Talking is not the problem. The problem is the People who believe the Republican bull shit. There could be as high as a million human beings dead, due to this Iraqi blunder. But here is what you must Remember. Weapons of mass destruction, there was none. Evil leader Saddam Hussein, he is dead and gone. and now we have Al Qaeda. Where is Al Qaeda, country, there is none Al Qaeda is a myth to keep the war going. How many more Americans life and limb, must be lost to Republican lies. Even if you could kill Al Qaeda, the Republican war Mongers would just invent a new threat. To lead by fear, you must have an enemy.

[Vektor]

161. Nobody has forgotten any of that.

Certainly nobody expects you to go vote Republican, and if you gleaned that suggestion from my post, then I'd be inclined to wonder if you were reading the same piece of writing as the one I submitted.

As for "enemies", fear IS the enemy, and the corrupt individuals who spread hate and division via the media are the ones responsible for creating that enemy, and milking that fear for their own selfish gains.

The media perpetuated the lies about WMD and banged the war drums - and continue to do so. And we ALL suffer because of it. The general public is the victim here. Dems and Repubs alike. We were ALL lied to.

Spreading hate doesn't bring peace, so I choose not do do that. I can fight the good fight without using hate to do it. Why stoop to the level of corruption that created this mess in the first place?

[ItNerd4life]

171. Very well written, agree completely.

I've converted many conservatives to independent voters because of talking about looking at both sides. You may have just started this soldier on that path.

I really liked your take on how manipulative both parties can be. I'm an Obama supporter, just because he doesn't seem to be in the same crowd as the rest of them. He doesn't talk about the right-wing attack machine, he talks about people. Just like you 2 did.

Thanks for sharing.