Can somebody remind me why I am not supposed to like Hillary?

[renie408]

For the life of me, I can't remember. I know it has something to do with the DLC. But then, I have a hard time remembering why I am supposed to hate the DLC, too. Does it have something to do with them being corporate schmucks or something??

So explain this...Do we like Bill Clinton? And if we do...isn't he a member of the DLC? Like a charter member or something?

Honestly, I can work it up to dislike some of the various candidates supporters, but I actually like all the candidates. I would like John Edwards to win, but mostly that's because I have always liked him and I would like to be right for once. I can see that Hillary has a lot of experience and Obama would offer a whole new dynamic. I even like Joe Biden and could live with him.

I don't like being told that Hillary is a foregone conclusion or that Obama HAS to win or the country is going to go to hell. I don't really hear the supporters of other candidates talking like that.

[pocoloco]

1. That's easy

IWR

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Clinton Is Your Friend

[FiveGoodMen]

24. That's the single best one!

The guy who's cable news show and papers were critical components in getting us into this war, who's viewers still think there's an Iraq/911 connection, who in many cases think there were WMDs found in Iraq -- that guy WANTS her to run for president.

Might as well be endorsed by the devil.

[ileus]

28. There are no reasons not to support her.

She's the best we have it's time to run with her...2008 she will become the first female presidential elect. Mark my words. She's unstoppable...

[Fresh_Start]

3. She's not Black enough

She's not Male enough
She's not liberal enough
She's not ineffective enough

[Gregorian]

4. There's nothing to not like about Kucinich. Why not look at him.

I don't spend much time looking at the other candidates. Kucinich has it all.

[pnwmom]

16. Kucinich recently proved he's the new Dukakis,

who lost 49 states after blandly saying in a debate that he wouldn't approve of the death penalty even if his own wife was raped and murdered.

Kucinich just announced that he wouldn't order Bin Laden killed even if he had an easy opportunity. Even if that were true, he shouldn't have said it. He should have avoided the question -- anything but say what he did.

He may have all the "correct" positions and he may have a great deal of integrity. But he doesn't have the emotional intelligence to get elected President. The Republicans would mop the floor with him.

[Gregorian]

23. America isn't mature enough for him.

I agree with him even more so after hearing him say those things. I can even take it a step further, like I did after 9/11. But people just can't get past revenge and force. Poor country.

[DemBones DemBones]

32. Most of DU isn't mature enough for him.

Howard Dean said he would want Osama to have a fair trial, which sounds to me like he wouldn't order him killed, either.

Assassinate Osama and you'll create many more assassins who'll be looking at the US.

[pretzel4gore]

25. sounds to me his answer taken outta context...

one of the reasons a gibbering half wit like georgie junyer is prez USA, and this held for ronnie reagan too, is that ANY reasoned response to ANY question can be misrepresented, iow can be lied up, successfully. And there's enough people who act simple about the workings of our political system that foxnews etc gets away with nonsensical crap. If a 'Osama' bin laden was produced, then quietly tried/executed for murdering, say julius ceasar, or Abel, even, then that hardly suggest anything but sheer idiocy- and perhaps a Chief Executive has the right to demand proof that a) this is really OBl, and not some homeless dude from Cairo and b) the evidence OBL actually played a role on any crimes can withstand cross examination....
What you're saying is Dennis has to judge the people according to foxnews/cnn etc, and design his positions according to that. But notice that it's foxnews/cnn etc who created the youngster bush- bush never created them. And pandering to creeps like the managers of the pigmedia gonna get you deeper into debt then if one just pointed out that the pigmedia provably are fukkin liars (and convicting OBL by law rather then by emotions would serve justice better, anyway, and withstand the test of time too)...
i mean, c'mon, homer simpson would easily be the best man for president USA, though he's a cartoon character, if the standards were adjusted to that end...
ferchrissaake, george junyer bush IS PRESIDENT OF THE USA! and 7 years has passed by...talk about mopping the floor with someone!

[pnwmom]

29. His answer wasn't out of context. In fact, he controlled the context.

And he whipped out a copy of his constitution to back up his answer.

But it doesn't matter how logical or even constitutional his answer was. If he imagines himself as the Democratic nominee, he blew up any prospect he had with that cold, cerebral answer.

[pretzel4gore]

39. maybe he don't want his plane to crash(?)

i actually agree with what you're saying, but think the problem is bigger then any knight in shiny armour can fix

[sandnsea]

5. If Hillary's so great

you may as well support her now and be done with it. What's the difference between her and Edwards anyway.

:sarcasm:

[renie408]

8. Yeah, they both voted for the IWR. That's why I am supposed to

like Obama, right? If he had had the chance, he wouldn't have. You know, if he could have and all.

[sandnsea]

11. Did I mention Obama?

I don't think I did. I think I mentioned Hillary being the same as Edwards. Isn't that right? Aren't they the same? Why is Edwards bothering with a primary if Hillary would be just as good.

:shrug:

[renie408]

12. HEEL!!

I was being sarcastical.

[sandnsea]

14. I am being bitchtical

I cannot understand your OP that Hillary would be as good as any other candidate. I know Edwards has a different outlook than her. I just don't get people giving her a pass.

[Snarkoleptic]

6. The RW mantra seems to be "She's a bitch".

When pressed for further details on her position on various issues, I generally receive a blank stare followed by clumsy change of subject.

[renie408]

10. Well, I'm a bitch, so that's not going to bother me. n/t

[Spangle]

27. And they rather her be WHAT?

When a women is strong, stands up, speaks her mind, plays ball.. she is considered a Bitch.

Those are all things they would want their President to be able to do if he was a man. They wouldn't want a WUS!

So what is their problem?

They are just pointing out she is a Female in a Male world.

I just point out to those folks that Repuglicans always talk about Democrats being wusses, etc.. So her being such a strong person should be the type of Canidate they are looking for.

[Ethelk2044]

7. I will let you watch this video to remember

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UhLBSLLIhUs

[renie408]

9. Nah

You'll have to tell me about it. I hate watching video online because I have a truly shitty connection. Besides, if you think there won't be a video out there making the candidate of your choice look like shit before it's all over with (if there isn't one already), you are fooling yourself.

[PatSeg]

44. Thanks for the link

I've never seen that one before and that was an eye-opener, especially after what I've read about the fake want ads used by corporations to justify more visas for foreign labor that will work for less than American workers.

[Captain Hilts]

13. I like all the candidates too. Plus Clark. Dodd and Biden have impressed me. Richardson, not. nt

[renie408]

15. I am a complete Democratic whore.

I like them all. I don't care enough about Hillary or Edwards IWR votes to nix them, I don't care about Obama's lack of experience enough to nix him, I don't care if Kucinich isn't married or that Biden doesn't have name recognition and I don't care if Gore isn't running...I still support him. This time around I can honestly say I will whole heartedly support WHOEVER wins the nomination and do whatever it takes to get them to the WH.

[Captain Hilts]

17. I think they're all smart folks who could be pretty good prezes and good leaders.

I was really surprised to find myself really liking Joe "MBNA" Biden's stump speeches on poverty and how to end the war, etc. And I've always liked Dodd.

I guess the one I like the least is Edwards. There's something stale about him and I would like someone NOT from the sunbelt.

[sandnsea]

21. This time?

The Clintons, yes? Kerry, no?

Honest to god Renie, that doesn't even make any sense. They just stand up there and bold-faced lie, just as sure as Bush does, and people don't see it. It's stunning. I certainly expected you to be whole-heartedly for Edwards. Oh, is it because Bill is southern so he must be a good guy too?? I don't get it.

[renie408]

33. Hold the phone...

I supported Kerry last time, but mostly it was because Edwards was his running mate. It wasn't 'whole hearted'. I put the bumper sticker on the car and voted for them, but I didn't volunteer and I didn't make the effort I now wish I had.

In the primary, my vote will go to Edwards or Gore if he gets in. I don't think Hillary and Edwards are carbon copies. But in the end, I will support whoever gets the nomination. And this time around, I WILL volunteer and I will make the effort.

I can't tell you that Hillary disgusts me. I can't tell you that I think she is a corporate whore. She is not my first pick. But I am not going to work up a lot of hate towards ANY Democratic candidate. Because that might just be the person I have to be enthusiastic about in six months. I am sure the argument could be made that I should be gunning for the others if I want Edwards to win. But I don't feel that way.

Sorry. I don't 'hate' Hillary. I am not in love with her, but I honestly think she would probably be one helluva President. Possibly more driven and effective than her husband. No, wait....I am SURE she will be more driven. Whether she could pull off effective, I dunno.

Or am I supposed to hate Bill Clinton, too? I can't ever keep up with who the PURE and GOOD Democrats are supposed to hate.

[Captain Hilts]

18. My uncle says she's a socialist. nt

[AtomicKitten]

19. you're supposed to make up your own damn mind --

and decide which candidate to support

[renie408]

35. Gee, ya think??

Oh my GOSH!! Really??

Hey, is it hard to be so much smarter than other people? I mean, you always have such a SUPERIOR position and opinion. It must get lonely at the top.

Oh, and I have made up my mind. Duh.

[AtomicKitten]

36. your rhetorical skills are lacking

Hey, is it hard to be so much smarter than other people? I mean, you always have such a SUPERIOR position and opinion. It must get lonely at the top.

And if you think making up one's own mind is the sign of elitism, you have some serious issues with sense of self.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Uben]

20. We hate Hillary

We hate everyone but our candidate, He/she is the only one worthy of our vote,

I get so tired of hearing this crap. If you like Hillary, vote for her. Spend some time to hear what the candidates stand for and vote for the one you agree with, or the one you most want to win. It's your vote, no one elses! But please, when it comes to the general election, vote for a democrat.

Don't be skewed by hate-talk, fear, or lies. If you don't want to spend the time to check out the candidates, why vote? You may be electing another Bush!

I like just about all the democrat candidates. I like some better than others.

I am voting for Hillary for my own reasons. Not someone else's.

[emilyg]

22. Thank you.

[PurityOfEssence]

26. Here, why don't you settle in with these for a bit:

She doesn’t much like the separation of church and state and she’s devious about her stance on it.

She’s far too beholden to corporations, and it shows in her trade policy and votes, her stance on visas and her votes regarding financial institutions. What she says and does are quite different.

She’s such a polished maneuverer, that she virtually never stands and fights, no matter how much she has herself painted as the female David incarnate.

Somehow she lets the Administration have its way with inexcusable appointments like Negroponte and Rice while in the guise of the people’s champion.

She’s trying to “out-male” the men on foreign policy, which is the same kind of pathetic, strutting bravado we’ve had from that Connecticut Texan. This is compensation, and precisely the wrong way to approach the world. It’s also as laughable as the neo-con’s foray into Iraq as they puffed up and seriously tried to out-macho a bunch of Arabs. This need to dispel naysaying about her femininity also reflects in her inability to admit a mistake. I doubt she can stop and ask directions, either. Once again, she’s trying so hard to NOT be something, that she winds up BEING nothing at all.

Except for women’s rights, she’s been on virtually every side of everything, and when you analyze her support for the Workplace Religious Freedom Act, she’s even iffy on these: one of the versions she supported would release police officers from the obligation to protect threatened women’s health clinics and back up pharmacists who refused to sell birth control. She’s been confronted directly about these provisions and ducks them. This pandering to theocrats raises, once again, the real question about her: when will she actually fight that good fight she’s been so gracefully positioning herself for? How much of a theocrat is she herself? Does she just suck up to and play ball with the Sojurners (which would be greasy) or does she actually want more religion forced on us?

Her chances of winning a general election are well below those of two other candidates who are more populist, to the point that her electability at all is SERIOUSLY in question.

If we lose ’08, we’ll be saddled with a couple or more forty year-old Nazis on the Supreme Court, and they’ll really mess things up.

So many different groups have so many bones to pick with her that it’s absolutely mind-blowing. Even the bump she’ll get from her gender probably can’t offset this.

I wouldn’t trust her to the door with a map and under an armed-guard, and many, many people feel the same way. Unlike me, many won’t vote or campaign for her because of this. For many, candidate choice is a very facile thing, and the Reader’s Digest version of who and what she is is repellant to many, many people.

Even if it would be fun to rub the reactionaries’ noses in it and revive Bill and Hillary in a triumphal new guise, it’s a pathetic and childish desire; this IS one of the serious elements to her popularity, much as it will be denied to no end.

We can do much, much better with the other two serious contenders, and we owe it to the world and ourselves to do so.

She’s corrupt (commodities trading, Murdoch nuzzling) and her true loyalties (Goldwater, etc.) are suspect. In short, she’s got more baggage than Delta in Atlanta, and it just wears people out. She can come across as dynamic and poised, but she can also come across as shrill and aggressively evasive.

Just a few things, that’s all.

[Zodiak]

30. Excellent summary Purity

and you didn't mention the DLC once. But I will....she is DLC, and the last thing we need to do is reinforce that bunch's power within the Democratic party. There is no point in going over the many reasons why the DLC bites. Long-time DUers know all about the DLC, their voting record, their vision for the party, and their effect on progressives being heard in this country. They're bad news.

[niceypoo]

31. Every point you make is either vague

Or filled with name calling.

[renie408]

34. I strongly agree with two of your points...

1) I don't think she can get elected and I would VOTE for her. I live in the deep South and every one of my relatives and the majority of my friends consider themselves conservatives or actual Republicans (some say they are conservative Independents, but I can tell they are really Republicans). To a man (and woman) they say that they would consider Edwards, are interested in Obama with reservations...but they would stand all night in a hurricane to vote AGAINST Hillary. For most of them, the interest in Edwards is less about what he stands for and more about the fact that they feel comfortable with him. That sucks and I don't admire it, but it's true.

2) I think a lot of Hillary support is actually Bill support. And that isn't a good reason to vote for Hillary.

[Dr. Strange]

37. Well, that's nitpicking, isn't it?

;-)
Good summary, POE!
:applause:

[paulk]

38. why don't you back this pile of shit up

with some real facts on her actual positions and votes?

[renie408]

41. You know, I have got to remember that some people are almost weirdly literal. n/t

[Colobo]

42. I'm for Obama, but you can be for whoever you want.

I insist Obama is who we need now.

[area51]

43. Vote for HRC...

if you like the idea of American jobs being offshored, and if you're against the idea of single-payer, universal healthcare. HRC loves Tata Consulting.

[ginchinchili]

45. Don't dislike Hillary, BUT....

Just don't vote for her in the primary. The Democratic nominee has to be able to peel away enough independents and moderate Republicans to win. Hillary definitely won't do that. Nor can Obama. Edwards would have a better chance, but he is tainted by the 2004 election: those voters we need to "peel away" associate Edwards with Kerry and we know what happened to him. If the Democrats are serious about winning this election, the candidate who has the best combination of characteristics to appeal to the most people and actually make a good tough president is Senator Biden. It's really an obvious choice that the Democrats better wake up to soon, or face another, at least, 4 years with a Republican in the White House.

[JoePhilly]

46. We should put HRC in the White House so that ...

the right wing looses its mind when Bill Clinton moves back in.

I can see it now ... Bill Clinton standing in front of the White House again smiling, waving.

And the right wing ripping its hair out in large clumps.

(typo)