My problem with Hillary beyond electability

[ButterflyBlood]

OK, let's say Hillary wins the nomination, and then goes on to win the general and the popular vote with something like 50.5%. Then what happens?

Honestly, not much. The country is still going to be deeply divided, and even with Dem control of Congress she won't be able to get much done since Dems in conservative districts will have to vote against pretty much her whole agenda or get countless ads against them screaming about how they're a rubber stamp for her next election. A pretty high percentage of the population will always hate her no matter, and she'll never be popular enough to be effective.

It's much like Karl Rove's 51% strategy. Organize a coalition that contains 51% of the population and tell the other 49% to go to hell. It works until the slightest crack in it happens. Then it's disaster, like the GOP got in 2006. And Hillary will be in the same situation. On a very small tightrope, one wrong step and it's disaster for us.

And after the disaster of the past 7 years, we need someone who can reunite the country instead of polarizing it yet further again. And that candidate is not Hillary.

[existentialist]

1. You have a point.

My own problem with her is that she hasn't shown me much leadership. She is adept at putting her finger to the wind. We deserve--and need--more than that.

[sampsonblk]

12. Considering what we've been getting...

Clinton can put her finger in the wind for me anytime.

I hope everyone realizes that the public agrees with our party on most issues. We are not wrong. There is no reason to accept the weak Dem leadership of past 7+ years.

Hillary will stand up to them. That is for certain.

[karynnj]

33. Stand up to them ? - She was with them

and was treated as the heir apparent, at least since Nov 2004, likely before that. Especially on Iraq.

[sandnsea]

73. isn't this stunning

You can put lists of quotes, youtube clips, on and on - and people will still say she's going to fight and ignore every piece of evidence that proves she enabled Bush, this war, globalization, etc. I understand the group of DLCers who have always been here; but some of the others, I will never understand what they're thinking.

[karynnj]

83. Especially stunning as they

pretend not to know or see that Kerry has fought them tirelessly.

[Carrieyazel]

84. Hillary VOTED for this catastrophe, she must and will have to answer for it.

Hillary absolutely stood with the neocons on this war. She parroted their talking points, said Saddam had WMD, which was a lie, she even implied in one of those AWFUL speeches she gave back in 2002 that Bin Laden and Hussein were linked, (despicable for her to do this). She refuses to admit that her travesty of a vote should never have been cast. It still haunts her, and will haunt her.

[superkia]

2. I never looked at that way. Good point!

[Nite Owl]

3. Much like Bill Clinton

they never let him forget that he didn't win over 50% (because of Perot) and even though he had a dem congress they separated from him early on not backing him on what he wanted. They lost big in '94. Everything is history from thereon in with all the compromises.

[depakid]

16. Nope-

Bill Clinton had the power to use the administrative agencies for 8 years- and go back and look at the record.

Ask yourself- what sorts of policies and agendas did his administration further?

[saracat]

4. You make a very good point.We cannot afford a close vote or an unpopular president.

Bill Clinton was charming and could talk the birds out of the trees and even he could not make it over the divide. Hillary would have it even tougher.

[Colobo]

5. With Barack Obama, America wins. Let's not forget it.

[illinoisprogressive]

7. there are many indicators that with Obama there would be a landslide.

I am not stretching this. Alot of indies and republicans just like Obama. The gop fears if he is the nominee it will be a landslide election.
this is just what I've read.

[smalll]

9. No black man with "Hussein" as a middle name will win in a landslide.

Especially when he is also one letter removed from the Bogeyman of Tora Bora. I hear he's not too hot in the morning either. :shrug:

[zulchzulu]

15. That would be a Repug knuckledragger excuse to not vote for Obama

I would think Americans are a wee bit smarter than that...

[TwilightZone]

32. Don't give them too much credit.

Nearly half of them voted for George W. Bush twice.

[formernaderite]

46. leave the metro area and all dems are not alike

don't think that all dems are open minded...you leave the metropolitan areas and there are many dems that are simply old school union guys...with very closed minds about most everything else. I think to them Clinton and Obama have certain baggage...at this point our biggest luck is the repubs have equally lackluster candidates.

[Capn Sunshine]

64. strangely enough, polls show Obama as the #3 choice among solid republicans

Sure, there's a fixed number of voters with racist baggage they can't unload, but it's getting smaller by the day.

[Dawgs]

17. I doubt that anyone that votes against Obama for the reasons you stated is going to vote for Hillary

Nice try though.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

36. Thank you!

That Americans-will-never-vote-for-a-Black-President meme is tiresome enough on it's own, but when used by people who think these same bigots will turn around and vote for Hillary Clinton, it's just laughable.

Well said. :applause:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. I Like Obama...

Can you please provide a citation?

[illinoisprogressive]

6. the problem is that those dems in red districts won't have coattails to ride.

Many of them already say they cannot get elected or re elected if Hillary is our nominee. Which is why many democrats are worried.
It is agreed she doesn't have coattails. her husband, for all his popularity, never did.
The fact remains that both Clintons are very very polarizing. And this bodes ill for the country which is so very sick. It is in very bad shape here and abroad. and it will be constant polarizing fights and the very real possibility of loosing both houses.

[MonkeyFunk]

10. "Many of them say"?

Can you list the "many" Dem politicians who have said they can't get elected if Clinton is the nominee?

[sandnsea]

8. 8 more years

Many Republicans are ready for a change. If we put someone in the White House that proves we are too, then those Republicans will put pressure on their politicians to be more cooperative. If we put Hillary in, we're guaranteed 8 more years of nothing but mudslinging. Yeah, she'll stop the bleeding, maybe fix the alternative minimum tax for the top 10% - but the rest of us can go suck an egg. I do not understand why we're doing this.

[Inuca]

80. Excellent point n/t

[2rth2pwr]

11. I support Hillary, and your argument

goes nowhere. Which of the candidates will ever get the country united? There will always be an ideological divide, people have different views of the world.

Would Kucinich bring along the right wingers? He can't even get members of his own party to follow him. Look there is no way to get the vast majority of the country to agree with the direction of either party. It will stay evenly divided for a long time to come.

[Perry Logan]

13. No matter which Democrat gets elected, you will not hear about anything good they accomplish.

The U.S. media exists to lower the morale of the left--largely by not reporting Democratic accomplishments.

This just happened to the Democrats in Congress. They did a commendable job: passing bills, changing procedures, fighting the administration's agenda more vigorously than in the last 50 years, doing oodles of investigations, delivering a painfully low success rating to GWB. Given their bare majority in both houses, and an obstructionist Republican minority, this is a remarkable achievement for the Democrats.

But of course, nobody knows it--because it went virtually unreported by the right-leaning media. Even people at DU love to say over and over again that the Democrats in Congress failed or did nothing--an incredible meme which is easily disproved by a quick look at the record.

That's how terribly effective the American media is. They can confuse and depress Democrats--and even turn them against their own candidates. You see this phenomenon every single day at DU. You can see it in this thread.

The same will happen with our next President. He or she will do good things. The press will ignore it. Some people at DU will uncritically repeat what the news says, wring their hands, threaten to quit the party, etc.--an absolute triumph for the Right.

[JTFrog]

18. self delete. n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Don't Light Any Matches Near Your Strawmen...You Might Immolate Yourself....

BTW-Hillary's my third choice but imho, there's little different than you turning Hillary into a cartoon and Rush and Ann Coulter turning her into a cartoon; you and them just come from different places...

[JTFrog]

20. WTF are you talking about?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

22. Since You Deleted It As Evident By Your Editing Others Will Never Know

That's why DU lets folks know that a post has been edited or deleted by putting "edited on such and such date" in red....


Since you deleted it or edited it as I have made empirically obvious I will give the crib notes on what you wrote and then deleted...

You basically said Hillary and her supporters want to send our jobs to India, deny our health insurance claims, and keep us mired in perpetual wars...

She must really be spanking your favorite candidate to compel you to engage in such calumny...

edited-to change is to us

[JTFrog]

24. Yeah the delete button is there

so when you post in frustration or anger you can take a second and rethink and delete it. But I guess you saved the day.

You missed a few points of my post, but I really don't care anymore. I'm off to take the blue pill.

This fucking place needs an enema.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. At The End Of The Day We Will All Be On The Same Side

I just like to be a contrarian sometimes...

It's all in good nature from me...

[DangerDave921]

21. No reuniting!

There will not be anyone who unites this country politically. Think about it. If a Repub wins in 08, would he somehow be able to convert the 50% of people in this country who oppose him? Would you feel united? Same thing with a Dem. You may like the Dem guy (or girl) but do you think a Dem president is somehow going to magically convert the Repub half of our country? No way. There is too sharp a divide in this country.

We win and we rule. Forget about uniting the country. Ain't gonna happen.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. What's The Maximum Amount Of Folks You Can Get On One Side Of An Issue?

Bush*'s popularity was in the nineties in the weeks after 9/11...

But yeah, folks will always find a reason to divide themselves...

-edited for clarity

[sampsonblk]

25. I pray you are wrong

With time, education, and a real leader, this country could still come back from this cliff.

Part of the reason for the divide is GOP politics. That is where we need to start. If we could educate the public about divisive GOP politics, its possible to have a return of reason and civility the the USA.

[Enrique]

27. don't believe the Hillary hatred myth

her negatives are going down. People that once hated her will ask themselves, exactly why do i hate her? They might even realize it's because of a republican slime campaign.

[Carrieyazel]

85. No, her negatives cannot go down. She is who she is. Everyone already has their opinion

[napi21]

28. Name me ONE candidate in either Party who would UNITE

the majority of American voters? There are NONE! In fact, I'm trying to think of any SINGLE PERSON, no matter what profession they're in, politician or not, who could do that right now. If the Dems were as ruthless and uncaring as Rover, we could have slaughtered the whole Pub Party by now! That wouldn't have brought the Country any closer together, just created a third segment of Americans who hate the Dems & the Pubs!

[w4rma]

29. John Edwards. (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

30. And Your Observation Is Based On What

eom

[napi21]

31. I don't think so. The Pubs will continuously slam him for being

A TRIAL LAWYER!!!!! And for constantly promoting "Comunist socialist programs"!

I wasn't trying to slam any individual candidate. All I mean is that none of the Dems I know, nor anyone on DU would be willing to consider any of the Pub candidates...not even Ron Paul because of his insane tax position. Likewise, no Pub that I know would be willing to consider any Dem candidate. I don't see any of them changing, nor can I think of anyone who could make it happen.

[karynnj]

34. That is a situation all of them will face

It is very unlikely that anyone will win by a landslide and even that does not lead to everyone immediately stepping back and giving the President a clean slate. Think back to 1980, Reagan won by a landslide - I know I still distrusted and disliked every thing he stood for. A facade of a genial personality was not enough. 2009 is a year where the battle lines will be more sharply drawn than in 1980 or 1992.

Any president coming in will face this huge rift. It is valid to ask which politicians have the humility, grace and past history to believe that they will reach out to the other side in fairness to work for the good of the country, while the extremists on that side are still making insane baseless attacks. Who, can live his or her values - rather than responding in kind to the other side, implying that they believe that two wrongs do make a right. This behavior, which some here will call names, is not being spineless if the President simultaneously stands firm on his/her beliefs and goals. In fact, refusing to play in the mud is part of who that person is. That person would not be guilty of not fighting, but would be seen as honorable.

Someone like that would likely face a very rough time, but over time the country would come to see the decency and fairness there. Given how deep the rifts are, there will always be some who never give him or her a chance. The best result would be to tamp down the hatred and have people able to accept that he/she is a good person, but politically they disagree. That is a place where we have not been since at least the Reagan or Carter time period.

For me, the question of who could do this and is running in 2008 has been unanswered since January 23, 2007. We need a statesman(or woman) not a politician.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

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[ljm2002]

37. Golly, it's such a shame that we "hate one another so", isn't it...

...and it's especially a shame that people claiming to be Democrats themselves, end up spouting unsupported Republic talking points such as this little gem: "If our servicemen and women come home defeated, not by the enemy there, but by our own Democratic leadership, they will start voting from the rooftops with rifles."

So you first posit that if our Democrats succeed in bringing the troops home (a big "if", and most of them only support a partial withdrawal), then they will have defeated our servicemen and women -- total claptrap, since there is not even a definition of what "victory" would be in Iraq, and certainly no path to victory that anyone has laid out. Defeat has already occurred, mainly because Bush et al did not give due consideration -- or any consideration, apparently -- on how to maintain order once the "war" part was over. And again -- it was on the orders of Bush's generals that the arms caches were not guarded, allowing the insurgents to arm themselves with modern weaponry and lots of it. Would our servicemen and women perhaps be a little peeved at that, if they thought about it? And just who would they peeved with? It was not the Democrats who engineered this debacle.

Then you make the leap that many of them will react by getting up on the rooftops with their rifles -- odd, since that would make them terrorists, wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure our servicemen and women would not appreciate your casting them in that light.

I think you are (a) confused, (b) trying to spread fear, and (c) trying to sow dissension.

Just my opinion.

[renie408]

43. Ok, yeah, I am confused. Does that mean that the SERVICEMEN will be voting with rifles from rooftops

or that terrorists will follow them here and vote from rooftops with rifles? Are are we all just going to go berzerk if the troops come home and start shooting rifles off of rooftops?

Cause if its that last thing, I have to go buy a rifle.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[renie408]

52. I find your lack of faith in the integrity and sanity of our servicemen repulsive.

I don't know who you are or what you are. But to imply that being brought home from Iraq will make our servicemen turn into Timothy McVeighs is disgusting. You should be ashamed of yourself for being so caught up in your political agenda that you would use our troops that way.

[baldguy]

38. So, when the barracades go up which side will you be on?

The side of the terrorists on the rooftop? Or the civilians they're shooting at?

[Name removed]

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[baldguy]

63. That's your problem

[baldguy]

81. Damn! He was just getting fun to be with.

[AlCzervik]

39. is it obvious day? Well at least you aren't even trying to hide it.

[renie408]

41. That really doesn't sound like something I would expect to hear from a Dem. n/t

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

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[AlCzervik]

45. Then the General shouldn't be writing op ed's and out there being used to sell

the surge. Many of us here have family serving and we support them.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

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[AlCzervik]

49. oh really? How about Admiral Fallon, is he "Dissing" the troops?

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

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[renie408]

53. I think the point is that Petraeus is a person, not a god. And is therefore fallible.

It is ridiculous to say that pointing out the flaws in his report is either calling him a liar. His report DOES have flaws in it. Mostly because it isn't really 'his' report, now is it?

[The_Progressive]

58. The Military is not Political

[renie408]

62. Try again. EVERYTHING is political. If it has people in it, it's political. n/t

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

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[AlCzervik]

56. and so does everybody else and it doesn't hurt the troops and by continuing to

say that everything hurts the troops it does nothing but stifle the debate for fear of hurting the troops.

[renie408]

54. No, actually, you don't. They are not inseparable. If you have the ability to comprehend

more than one idea at a time, you can readily separate the troops from both their generals and also from the President. I can tell the difference between saying that George Bush has done a bad job of running the war in Iraq and saying that the troops are bad. Can you?

[RetroLounge]

55. Fuck you and your talking points

that is all.

RL

[Name removed]

59. Deleted message

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[Richard Steele]

74. What a crock of Koolaid.

[renie408]

50. In all seriousness and with respect...

I don't know you, so it's hard to figure out exactly where you are coming from. I am going to assume that you are either ex-military or you have a personal connection to the military and to the troops in Iraq.

I haven't heard anybody call the troops 'cold blooded killers'...except you when you implied that if they were brought home they would start shooting us from rooftops.

As for general being liars, what do you think standing up before the American people and selling them a report on the violence in Iraq which doesn't count deaths by IED, deaths of Sunni on Sunni or Shiite on Shiite or death by gunshot to the front of the head is? Or telling people that Anbar province is a shining example of how the surge is working...without mentioning that violence has gone up exponentially in neighboring provinces? If those things are not lying, aren't they at least misleading?

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

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[renie408]

60. A couple of things...

A) you would have to be pretty damn old school to have been voting since before I was born.

B) I have never heard Hillary Clinton or any other Democrat degrade the troops. Please show me where she has. Pointing out the flaws in the Petraeus report isn't going after the troops. Saying Petraeus is being, at best, disingenuous isn't attacking the troops. Refusing to denounce the Moveon ad isn't attacking the troops. You are inventing these attacks in your head. Or, actually, the GOP publicity machine is generating them and you are swallowing it whole.

Your perceptions are your own and I can't do anything about them. But I think you are a little out of touch with servicemen and with the public in general. Do not confuse your own opinions with those of people in general. I happen to know several servicemen and their families (two nephews in service. One in the Army, one in the Marines. One got back from Iraq last Spring, one is there right now. Both are proud of their service. Both are Democrats. Both will serve as they are asked to. Both have huge reservations about fixing what is going on in Iraq 'on the ground'.). I just don't think your views are as widespread as you imagine.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. Jim Webb , Jack Reed, and Wes Clark Oppose This War

Distinguished veterans all...

Are they not patriotic?

And how are we going to lose this war?

We can't lose it for the same reason we can't win it...

There's no sovereign entity to surrender to or defend...

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

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[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. Who Called Petraeus A Liar?

I think he sincerely believes in his mission but his mission is flawed and doomed to failure...

The road to war is wide... The road out is narrow...

There's a nascent civil war that will be won by either the Sunnis or the Shias... There's nothing we can do to prevent that civil war... We can no more stop the civil war in Iraq than France or Britain could have stopped our civil war...

[The_Progressive]

71. Have you ever been to Iraq?

May I ask?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I Have Never Ate Dirt But I Presume It Doesn't Taste Good

If we can only discuss what we have personally experienced our experience would be extremely limited and there would be no need for learning, textbooks, and schools... We would be back in the antediluvian age.


I'm at an internet cafe...I can't cut and paste... Google Bobby Ghosh and learn about life in Baghdad...

[Richard Steele]

75. If he was an "honest man", you might have a point. He isn't; you don't.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. I Don't Question Petraeus' Character...I Question His Judgement And Sentience...

And Bush* is the "Decider"... He deserve the blame for this fiasco... A fish rots from the head down...

[renie408]

40. You appear to assume that someone else will win in a landslide or at least

a substantial majority. Who would that be? Obama? Edwards? Ok, it looks like you are going to say Obama. But you can't know that. You are extrapolating to thinly, I think. What if we nominate Obama, and he wins by a landslie, but a submarine falls out of the sky and kills him while he is being sworn in? Then we are stuck with whoever he picked to be VP. And what if he picked....

You can 'what if' yourself and this election to death. Support who you support. That's about the best you can do.

[Arugula Latte]

61. Two words come to mind thinking about a Hillary presidency: Squandered Opportunity

We have a historic chance to make a clean break, inspire people, give people hope, bring more to our side ... And we're going to flush all that down the drain with Hillary.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

70. In Your Opinion

America was a "kinder and gentler" place in the nineties and our standing in the rest of the world was infinitely higher...

[sandnsea]

76. Yep, it's heartbreaking

Alienate half the country, and not even get progressive policies in return. This country has gone batshit, all the way around.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

65. This Thread Has Taken An Ominous And Dark Turn

My dad got shot in the eye and gut and lost his eye in the Sicilian Campaign...He spent six months recuperating at Walter Reed Hospital ... He had several operations on his eye... They could save it cosmetically but not the sight... He had a ninth grade education and was working as a bartender in his brother's bar when the war begun... He also was a Golden Gloves fighter when he was drafted... The hope of turning pro died in Sicily...

He cried like a baby when our POWS came home from Nam , battered but not broken...


He would be appalled to hear that soldiers from this misbegotten foreign adventure came home to become domestic terrorists as someone here suggested..

What disgraceful lunacy...

[Richard Steele]

78. Well, bear in mind that this disgraceful lunacy...

...is coming from someone who claims it will
be the Democrats fault. :eyes:

I have a feeling that subthread won't be here much longer.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

79. There's No Government In Iraq To Defend...

At least in Nam and Korea there was a government to defend and the fact that one survived and one didn't has a lot to do with it's legitimacy in the first place imho...

[Carrieyazel]

82. Hillary Clinton CANNOT WIN the general election in 2008. Many Dems already realize this.

Hillary is an AWFUL general election candidate. Not just for reasons of electability of course. Your great post does an excellent job delineating her critical flaws. Let me add a few quick points:

1. She's a Senator with NO executive experience; elected or cabinet appointed.

2. She's unlikable and polarizing. She has by far the highest % of voters who will NEVER vote for her. With her sky high negatives (that she can't fix) she is a terrible selection.

3. She's female. Sadly, in a country that is still this SEXIST, a woman cannot become President next year. Look at what old, desperate Tweety Matthews is STILL doing on the air.

4. She's running a lackluster, passionless front-running pseudo campaign. No inspiration, she's a cold, calcuated neo-liberal who goes out of her way to pander to the corp media elites.

Hillary cannot and will not win, especially if the Repukes nominee is Ghouliani.

[regnaD kciN]

86. "Be able to do much"...? She won't WANT to do much...

I am firmly convinced a Hillary presidency will be much like her husband's in its ideology -- basically, non-stop triangulating and seeking a "third way" between progressive Democratic concerns and the corporate agenda of Wall Street, with the latter winning out more often than not.

Recall that, for all the '90s nostalgia we've seen recently, that the major legislative achievements of Bill Clinton's presidency were a) NAFTA, b) welfare "reform" (i.e. dismantling), and c) the Defense of Marriage Act...all of which were passed with stronger support from Republicans than Democrats.

Don't get me wrong: I'm sure a Hillary presidency will be better than the Nightmare on Pennsylvania Avenue we've been experiencing for the past seven years. But I think it will be a seriously missed opportunity for Democrats and progressives at one of the few times in the past thirty-five years where there is a serious appetite for change. Instead, I fear we'll get the textbook DLC approach: cautious business-as-usual, with an eye to satisfying Wall Street and the big corporate donors first, and brushing-off progressive Democrats with the message that "you've got nowhere else to go." The only difference is that, where Bill could cloak that message with his "I feel your pain" personal manner, Hillary's "never apologize, never explain, just move on" approach will put across that message far more bluntly.

[goodgd_yall]

87. "Slightest crack"?

"It's much like Karl Rove's 51% strategy. Organize a coalition that contains 51% of the population and tell the other 49% to go to hell. It works until the slightest crack in it happens. Then it's disaster, like the GOP got in 2006."

I hardly think invading a country, getting mired in it, and the Katrina disaster constitute a slight crack.