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Trust Hillary? Willing Suspension of Belief!

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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:01 PM
Original message
Trust Hillary? Willing Suspension of Belief!
Edited on Sat Sep-15-07 07:03 PM by Carolina
The General Came to Washington by Alexander Cockburn:


General Petraeus loosed off his volleys of bogus numbers and the senatorial candidates for presidential nomination returned fire in carefully prepared but equally meretricious salvoes...

This doesn’t count General Petraeus himself who ... disclosed his own presidential ambitions to an Iraqi official two years ago, though he apparently confided to the Iraqi that a 2008 run would be premature. He probably hopes he’ll be running against President Clinton in 2012. Candidate Clinton whacked presumptive candidate Petraeus with Coleridge’s definition of “dramatic truth”. To believe his report, she said, would require “the willing suspension of disbelief” ...

Mrs Clinton’s problem is that she very willingly suspended disbelief in 2002. When it came time to deliver her Senate speech in support of the war, she reiterated some of the most outlandish claims made by Dick Cheney. In this speech she said Saddam Hussein had rebuilt his chemical and biological weapons program; that he had improved his long-range missile capability; that he was reconstituting his nuclear weapons program; and that he was giving aid and comfort to Al Qaeda. The only other Democratic senator to make all four of these claims in his floor speech was Joe Lieberman. But even he didn’t go as far as Senator Clinton. In Lieberman’s speech, there was conditionality about some of the claims. In Senator Clinton’s, there was none, though even the grotesque war hawk, Ken Pollack, advising Senator Clinton prior to her vote, had told her that the allegation about the Al Qaeda connection was “bullshit.”

Later, as the winds of opinion changed, Senator Clinton claimed - and continues to do so to this day - that hers was a vote not for war but for negotiation. In fact, the record shows that only hours after the war authorization vote Senator voted against the Democratic resolution that would have required Bush to seek a diplomatic solution before launching the war.

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/09/15/3862/
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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
1. I agree and I cannot understand ...
... how anyone who read or listened to her 2002 speech and compare it with the way she interprets it now can give her any credence.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #1
11. Yep ...who's fuzzy now? Oh but go ahead and vote for her anyway.
Yuck! She makes me sick!
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
29. Exactly!
I also think we're being led to the slaughterhouse of electoral defeat by the lying, deceitful repuke-owned MSM that helps promote her 'lead' and suggest her inevitability as the nominee.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #1
52. Nov 2003 "stay the course"
For me, it's more what she has said after the speech than the speech itself. Her remarks to Code Pink before the actual invasion, her "stay the course" remarks, her letting Bush off the hook for war lies, the lot of it. The Clintons supported the goddamn WAR. Everything she says about her approach to not taking to enemies, nuclear weapons, we aren't getting a change with her. I do not know what the hell people are basing their decisions on.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. People change.
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #2
22. Sure they do.
But that does not absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

The Senator has yet to address that aspect.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Exactly!
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. Too bad it took thousands of lives to change her political stand.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. and the change in the political wind!
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. Excuse me?
Edited on Sun Sep-16-07 01:12 PM by William769
I did not change her political stand.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. of course not
you little pee-on*. POLLS DID!

* that's not directed at you personally but all of us pee-ons
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
33. People calculate and pander too
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Exactly!
and that shoe seems to fit with HRC.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
49. Especially when the issue they champion turns to shit
like this Iraq war she supported until it became too politically unfavorable.
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fedupfisherman Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:19 PM
Response to Original message
3. So she was duped by Bush?
Thats not good.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I guess that makes her a repuke
Edited on Sat Sep-15-07 07:31 PM by L0oniX
Only a hard core repuke would vote for Bush and still believe him.
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fedupfisherman Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. That is what bugs me about her
Supposed to be the 'Smartest Woman in the World' but duped by Bush

:shrug:
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. it was calculating
pure and simple.

Welcome to DU :hi:
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Menemsha Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
17. Who's a hard core repuke?
Maybe you should read the Washington Post today: Washington Post: War Critics Question Obama's Fervor
Some Say Actions Don't Match Talk
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/14/AR2007091402254.html
Lots of misinformation out there- Wes Clark is a true Patriot who loves his country- he would not have endorsed Hillary Clinton if he didn't believe she had the goods- you have been brain washed by years of right wing trashing-
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. welcome to DU
Edited on Sat Sep-15-07 09:46 PM by Carolina
:hi: But watch it with the slings. I have not been brainwashed. HRC is calculating.

BTW, I was an ardent Clark supporter in 2004 and frankly, am disappointed by the good general's endorsement. Hmmm ... accepting his endorsement as some kind of proof of electability or whatever goods you mean makes as much sense as trusting other generals! Sometimes people, generals included, just support their friends!

It's still way too early. The MSM's pronouncements and these endorsements suggest that primaries and votes don't matter. Oh yeah, that's right. Based on 2000 and 2004, they don't.
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Menemsha Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. much too simplistic- this is issue is complicated and it's been reduced to sound bite
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illinoisprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
4. she voted as a pure, cold calculated move. No emotion or soul searching
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Menemsha Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
19. You obviously haven't read her floor speech-
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William769 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #19
45. It's apparent the person you responded to hasn't read anything.
But she does love to drink kool-aid.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
37. couldn't agree more
and that's why I can never support her
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
5. "Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild" is not "has rebuilt"-Alexander Cockburn is sloppy on this one
October 10, 2002
Floor Speech of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton
on S.J. Res. 45, A Resolution to Authorize the Use of
United States Armed Forces Against Iraq

As Delivered

Today we are asked whether to give the President of the United States authority to use force in Iraq should diplomatic efforts fail to dismantle Saddam Hussein's chemical and biological weapons and his nuclear program.

I am honored to represent nearly 19 million New Yorkers, a thoughtful democracy of voices and opinions who make themselves heard on the great issues of our day especially this one. Many have contacted my office about this resolution, both in support of and in opposition to it, and I am grateful to all who have expressed an opinion.

I also greatly respect the differing opinions within this body. The debate they engender will aid our search for a wise, effective policy. Therefore, on no account should dissent be discouraged or disparaged. It is central to our freedom and to our progress, for on more than one occasion, history has proven our great dissenters to be right.

Now, I believe the facts that have brought us to this fateful vote are not in doubt. Saddam Hussein is a tyrant who has tortured and killed his own people, even his own family members, to maintain his iron grip on power. He used chemical weapons on Iraqi Kurds and on Iranians, killing over 20 thousand people. Unfortunately, during the 1980's, while he engaged in such horrific activity, he enjoyed the support of the American government, because he had oil and was seen as a counterweight to the Ayatollah Khomeini in Iran.

In 1991, Saddam Hussein invaded and occupied Kuwait, losing the support of the United States. The first President Bush assembled a global coalition, including many Arab states, and threw Saddam out after forty-three days of bombing and a hundred hours of ground operations. The U.S.-led coalition then withdrew, leaving the Kurds and the Shiites, who had risen against Saddam Hussein at our urging, to Saddam's revenge.

As a condition for ending the conflict, the United Nations imposed a number of requirements on Iraq, among them disarmament of all weapons of mass destruction, stocks used to make such weapons, and laboratories necessary to do the work. Saddam Hussein agreed, and an inspection system was set up to ensure compliance. And though he repeatedly lied, delayed, and obstructed the inspections work, the inspectors found and destroyed far more weapons of mass destruction capability than were destroyed in the Gulf War, including thousands of chemical weapons, large volumes of chemical and biological stocks, a number of missiles and warheads, a major lab equipped to produce anthrax and other bio-weapons, as well as substantial nuclear facilities.

In 1998, Saddam Hussein pressured the United Nations to lift the sanctions by threatening to stop all cooperation with the inspectors. In an attempt to resolve the situation, the UN, unwisely in my view, agreed to put limits on inspections of designated "sovereign sites" including the so-called presidential palaces, which in reality were huge compounds well suited to hold weapons labs, stocks, and records which Saddam Hussein was required by UN resolution to turn over. When Saddam blocked the inspection process, the inspectors left. As a result, President Clinton, with the British and others, ordered an intensive four-day air assault, Operation Desert Fox, on known and suspected weapons of mass destruction sites and other military targets.

In 1998, the United States also changed its underlying policy toward Iraq from containment to regime change and began to examine options to effect such a change, including support for Iraqi opposition leaders within the country and abroad.

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001.

It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security.

Now this much is undisputed. The open questions are: what should we do about it? How, when, and with whom?

Some people favor attacking Saddam Hussein now, with any allies we can muster, in the belief that one more round of weapons inspections would not produce the required disarmament, and that deposing Saddam would be a positive good for the Iraqi people and would create the possibility of a secular democratic state in the Middle East, one which could perhaps move the entire region toward democratic reform.

This view has appeal to some, because it would assure disarmament; because it would right old wrongs after our abandonment of the Shiites and Kurds in 1991, and our support for Saddam Hussein in the 1980's when he was using chemical weapons and terrorizing his people; and because it would give the Iraqi people a chance to build a future in freedom.

However, this course is fraught with danger. We and our NATO allies did not depose Mr. Milosevic, who was responsible for more than a quarter of a million people being killed in the 1990s. Instead, by stopping his aggression in Bosnia and Kosovo, and keeping on the tough sanctions, we created the conditions in which his own people threw him out and led to his being in the dock being tried for war crimes as we speak.

If we were to attack Iraq now, alone or with few allies, it would set a precedent that could come back to haunt us. In recent days, Russia has talked of an invasion of Georgia to attack Chechen rebels. India has mentioned the possibility of a pre-emptive strike on Pakistan. And what if China were to perceive a threat from Taiwan?

So Mr. President, for all its appeal, a unilateral attack, while it cannot be ruled out, on the present facts is not a good option.

Others argue that we should work through the United Nations and should only resort to force if and when the United Nations Security Council approves it. This too has great appeal for different reasons. The UN deserves our support. Whenever possible we should work through it and strengthen it, for it enables the world to share the risks and burdens of global security and when it acts, it confers a legitimacy that increases the likelihood of long-term success. The UN can help lead the world into a new era of global cooperation and the United States should support that goal.

But there are problems with this approach as well. The United Nations is an organization that is still growing and maturing. It often lacks the cohesion to enforce its own mandates. And when Security Council members use the veto, on occasion, for reasons of narrow-minded interests, it cannot act. In Kosovo, the Russians did not approve NATO military action because of political, ethnic, and religious ties to the Serbs. The United States therefore could not obtain a Security Council resolution in favor of the action necessary to stop the dislocation and ethnic cleansing of more than a million Kosovar Albanians. However, most of the world was with us because there was a genuine emergency with thousands dead and a million driven from their homes. As soon as the American-led conflict was over, Russia joined the peacekeeping effort that is still underway.

In the case of Iraq, recent comments indicate that one or two Security Council members might never approve force against Saddam Hussein until he has actually used chemical, biological, or God forbid, nuclear weapons.

So, Mr. President, the question is how do we do our best to both defuse the real threat that Saddam Hussein poses to his people, to the region, including Israel, to the United States, to the world, and at the same time, work to maximize our international support and strengthen the United Nations?

While there is no perfect approach to this thorny dilemma, and while people of good faith and high intelligence can reach diametrically opposed conclusions, I believe the best course is to go to the UN for a strong resolution that scraps the 1998 restrictions on inspections and calls for complete, unlimited inspections with cooperation expected and demanded from Iraq. I know that the Administration wants more, including an explicit authorization to use force, but we may not be able to secure that now, perhaps even later. But if we get a clear requirement for unfettered inspections, I believe the authority to use force to enforce that mandate is inherent in the original 1991 UN resolution, as President Clinton recognized when he launched Operation Desert Fox in 1998.

If we get the resolution that President Bush seeks, and if Saddam complies, disarmament can proceed and the threat can be eliminated. Regime change will, of course, take longer but we must still work for it, nurturing all reasonable forces of opposition.

If we get the resolution and Saddam does not comply, then we can attack him with far more support and legitimacy than we would have otherwise.

If we try and fail to get a resolution that simply, but forcefully, calls for Saddam's compliance with unlimited inspections, those who oppose even that will be in an indefensible position. And, we will still have more support and legitimacy than if we insist now on a resolution that includes authorizing military action and other requirements giving some nations superficially legitimate reasons to oppose any Security Council action. They will say we never wanted a resolution at all and that we only support the United Nations when it does exactly what we want.

I believe international support and legitimacy are crucial. After shots are fired and bombs are dropped, not all consequences are predictable. While the military outcome is not in doubt, should we put troops on the ground, there is still the matter of Saddam Hussein's biological and chemical weapons. Today he has maximum incentive not to use them or give them away. If he did either, the world would demand his immediate removal. Once the battle is joined, however, with the outcome certain, he will have maximum incentive to use weapons of mass destruction and to give what he can't use to terrorists who can torment us with them long after he is gone. We cannot be paralyzed by this possibility, but we would be foolish to ignore it. And according to recent reports, the CIA agrees with this analysis. A world united in sharing the risk at least would make this occurrence less likely and more bearable and would be far more likely to share with us the considerable burden of rebuilding a secure and peaceful post-Saddam Iraq.

President Bush's speech in Cincinnati and the changes in policy that have come forth since the Administration began broaching this issue some weeks ago have made my vote easier. Even though the resolution before the Senate is not as strong as I would like in requiring the diplomatic route first and placing highest priority on a simple, clear requirement for unlimited inspections, I will take the President at his word that he will try hard to pass a UN resolution and will seek to avoid war, if at all possible.

Because bipartisan support for this resolution makes success in the United Nations more likely, and therefore, war less likely, and because a good faith effort by the United States, even if it fails, will bring more allies and legitimacy to our cause, I have concluded, after careful and serious consideration, that a vote for the resolution best serves the security of our nation. If we were to defeat this resolution or pass it with only a few Democrats, I am concerned that those who want to pretend this problem will go way with delay will oppose any UN resolution calling for unrestricted inspections.

This is a very difficult vote. This is probably the hardest decision I have ever had to make -- any vote that may lead to war should be hard -- but I cast it with conviction.

And perhaps my decision is influenced by my eight years of experience on the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue in the White House watching my husband deal with serious challenges to our nation. I want this President, or any future President, to be in the strongest possible position to lead our country in the United Nations or in war. Secondly, I want to insure that Saddam Hussein makes no mistake about our national unity and for our support for the President's efforts to wage America's war against terrorists and weapons of mass destruction. And thirdly, I want the men and women in our Armed Forces to know that if they should be called upon to act against Iraq, our country will stand resolutely behind them.

My vote is not, however, a vote for any new doctrine of pre-emption, or for uni-lateralism, or for the arrogance of American power or purpose -- all of which carry grave dangers for our nation, for the rule of international law and for the peace and security of people throughout the world.

Over eleven years have passed since the UN called on Saddam Hussein to rid himself of weapons of mass destruction as a condition of returning to the world community. Time and time again he has frustrated and denied these conditions. This matter cannot be left hanging forever with consequences we would all live to regret. War can yet be avoided, but our responsibility to global security and to the integrity of United Nations resolutions protecting it cannot. I urge the President to spare no effort to secure a clear, unambiguous demand by the United Nations for unlimited inspections.

And finally, on another personal note, I come to this decision from the perspective of a Senator from New York who has seen all too closely the consequences of last year's terrible attacks on our nation. In balancing the risks of action versus inaction, I think New Yorkers who have gone through the fires of hell may be more attuned to the risk of not acting. I know that I am.

So it is with conviction that I support this resolution as being in the best interests of our nation. A vote for it is not a vote to rush to war; it is a vote that puts awesome responsibility in the hands of our President and we say to him - use these powers wisely and as a last resort. And it is a vote that says clearly to Saddam Hussein - this is your last chance - disarm or be disarmed.

Thank you, Mr. President.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
25. worked to build versus built
is such a huge difference :shrug:

Actually, though, it makes her vote for the resolution even worse because working toward something is not the same as achieving it, and therefore demonstrates that Hussein was not an imminent threat and HRC knew it! She used vagueness and suggestiveness to justify her 'yea' vote.

And BTW, trusting Bush was and is just plain stupid. And judging by the results of the license to kill that IWR was, trusting and going along with Bush -- as she did -- was JUST PLAIN CRIMINAL.

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. I disagree a bit - but I do agree that trusting Bush was not wise - Obama sores points on that n/t
n/t
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MisterP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. don't forget she also said those opposed to the war had forgotten the lessons of 9-11...
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. An assistant to the lies ....I am not surprised.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
7. And Alexander Cockburn "willingly suspended disbelief"
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salin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
40. And (Howard) Dean, and - if I recall correctly - Clark.
smear is one of his fortes.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
10. why don't you post this over at Free Republic?
where it belongs?

------------------------

Cockburn has trashed every Dem there is.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. So you are anti-free speech ...nice ..WTF are you doing here?
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. LOL
go play your strawman games somewhere else, kid.

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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #10
23. truth hurts, hunh?
Bottom line is: Hillary was calculating then and now. Thinking about elections and power not about what is/was true, right and good for the country.

If challenging Dems is forbidden, if you think I should go to Freak Republic, then you, too, are behaving like the repukes who will brook no dissent and want to silence those who question their beliefs, their 'fearless' leader, their issue du jour, etc.
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #23
35. Cockburn wouldn't know the "truth" if it smacked him
upside the head.

Challenging Dems is one thing, but the writer of this article is well known for his illogical and biased attacks on Democrats of all stripes. He is a liar. Believe him if you want, but save your hifalutin words for someone who deserves them.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. amen. He really is a lying sack of shit.
And Hillary Clinton is last on my list of candidates. I will never forget her casting a vote for the IWR.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
14. Hillary is done...
I agree. Hillary is the Problem.. Not the solution.. Hillary is Bush-Lite. EOM
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
39. I see you've put a lot of thought into this...
not really
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #14
41. How original. Blah
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
15. I no longer care about how she felt or voted re: IWR. But
Her prowar stance on Iran gives me the creeps
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. her pro-war stance is
just a continuance of her IWR vote. They go hand-in-hand, past is prologue. So that vote and her speech for it matter big time.
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truedelphi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
46. Seen in the manner you describe, I agree.
I was just trying to point out that if her views about the future were substantially different from her views about the past, I'd be willing to forgive her.

But a war against Iran is going to destroy this country -not of itself but of the fact that China and Russia and many others will totally turn against us. It's the type of war where having access to a fallout shelter might be a good idea.
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waiting for hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
16. Niiice.....
I wonder if the same who come to defend her will defend Edwards?

The Right Way in Iraq

By John Edwards

Sunday, November 13, 2005; Page B07

I was wrong.

Almost three years ago we went into Iraq to remove what we were told -- and what many of us believed and argued -- was a threat to America. But in fact we now know that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction when our forces invaded Iraq in 2003. The intelligence was deeply flawed and, in some cases, manipulated to fit a political agenda.

It was a mistake to vote for this war in 2002. I take responsibility for that mistake. It has been hard to say these words because those who didn't make a mistake -- the men and women of our armed forces and their families -- have performed heroically and paid a dear price.

The world desperately needs moral leadership from America, and the foundation for moral leadership is telling the truth.

While we can't change the past, we need to accept responsibility, because a key part of restoring America's moral leadership is acknowledging when we've made mistakes or been proven wrong -- and showing that we have the creativity and guts to make it right.

The argument for going to war with Iraq was based on intelligence that we now know was inaccurate. The information the American people were hearing from the president -- and that I was being given by our intelligence community -- wasn't the whole story. Had I known this at the time, I never would have voted for this war.

George Bush won't accept responsibility for his mistakes. Along with Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, he has made horrible mistakes at almost every step: failed diplomacy; not going in with enough troops; not giving our forces the equipment they need; not having a plan for peace.

Because of these failures, Iraq is a mess and has become a far greater threat than it ever was. It is now a haven for terrorists, and our presence there is draining the goodwill our country once enjoyed, diminishing our global standing. It has made fighting the global war against terrorist organizations more difficult, not less.

The urgent question isn't how we got here but what we do now. We have to give our troops a way to end their mission honorably. That means leaving behind a success, not a failure.

What is success? I don't think it is Iraq as a Jeffersonian democracy. I think it is an Iraq that is relatively stable, largely self-sufficient, comparatively open and free, and in control of its own destiny.

A plan for success needs to focus on three interlocking objectives: reducing the American presence, building Iraq's capacity and getting other countries to meet their responsibilities to help.

First, we need to remove the image of an imperialist America from the landscape of Iraq. American contractors who have taken unfair advantage of the turmoil in Iraq need to leave Iraq. If that means Halliburton subsidiary KBR, then KBR should go. Such departures, and the return of the work to Iraqi businesses, would be a real statement about our hopes for the new nation.

We also need to show Iraq and the world that we will not stay there forever. We've reached the point where the large number of our troops in Iraq hurts, not helps, our goals. Therefore, early next year, after the Iraqi elections, when a new government has been created, we should begin redeployment of a significant number of troops out of Iraq. This should be the beginning of a gradual process to reduce our presence and change the shape of our military's deployment in Iraq. Most of these troops should come from National Guard or Reserve forces.

That will still leave us with enough military capability, combined with better-trained Iraqis, to fight terrorists and continue to help the Iraqis develop a stable country.

Second, this redeployment should work in concert with a more effective training program for Iraqi forces. We should implement a clear plan for training and hard deadlines for certain benchmarks to be met. To increase incentives, we should implement a schedule showing that, as we certify Iraqi troops as trained and equipped, a proportional number of U.S. troops will be withdrawn.

Third, we must launch a serious diplomatic process that brings the world into this effort. We should bring Iraq's neighbors and our key European allies into a diplomatic process to get Iraq on its feet. The president needs to create a unified international front.

Too many mistakes have already been made for this to be easy. Yet we must take these steps to succeed. The American people, the Iraqi people and -- most important -- our troops who have died or been injured there, and those who are fighting there today, deserve nothing less.

America's leaders -- all of us -- need to accept the responsibility we each carry for how we got to this place. More than 2,000 Americans have lost their lives in this war, and more than 150,000 are fighting there today. They and their families deserve honesty from our country's leaders. And they also deserve a clear plan for a way out.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/11/AR2005111101623.html



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Milo_Bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 08:22 PM
Response to Original message
20. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Dont' confuse people by telling us what the candidates actually did, We are only supposed to form our opinions from what they said they did. It is much more important to listen to what someone SAID they did than what they actually did.

Sheesh, haven't you figured that out yet?

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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. I think you're right.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. yeah, the words versus actions
dilemma. :hi:
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bvar22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-15-07 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
38. I trust Hillary.
I trust Hillary to:

*continue the War/Occupation for many years as she has promised her backers at AIPAC/MIC.
Hillary promises to keep a military presence in Iraq to train the Iraqis, fight AlQaeda, protect American (Corporate) interests (READ: force the "Oil Law" on the Iraqis). This is an extension of the Bush* plan in Iraq. Hillary says she will be able to withdraw American troops from "the civil war", but still maintain a military presence in Iraq!!!! This is not even remotely possible, but makes a good soundbyte and provides plenty of weasel room for keeping a large # of combat troops and the $BILLIONS flowing to her corporate sponsors. Keeps AIPAC happy too.

*Expand FOR PROFIT HealthCare The Insurance Companies and HMOs will be given a seat at the table to help reform HealthCare. The FOR PROFIT HealthCare system has funneled $MILLIONS$ to Hillary. She won't disappoint them. Millions of Taxpayer dollars will be funneled into the pockets of the RICHEST CEOs in history as the Hillary administration subsidizes the Insurance & Health Management Corporations and calls it Universal HealthCare.

* to send MORE American jobs overseas. Hillary has promised her Corporate backers that the H1B Visa program WILL BE EXPANDED, and has reassured Corporate interests that more American tech jobs will be outsourced to India.

* to further weaken LABOR see above

*To pump an even larger percentage of taxpayer money into the WAR machine.
Hillary has promised to GROW the American military by at least 100,000 men and increase the "Defense Budget" accordingly.

*to consolidate even MORE power into fewer hands in the Media and Corporate CEOs in general.
I mean, come on, who doesn't know that Hillary is on Murdoch's "Donate to and Raise $MONEY For"list. Murdoch is no fool, and he isn't going to finance anyone who is going to hurt his empire.


So, yeah, I trust Hillary to do EXACTLY what she has promised to do.
I DON'T trust most members of the Democratic Party to do their homework before voting.



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.



”Unlike other candidates, I am not funded by those corporate interests.
I owe them no loyalty, and they have no influence over me or my policies.”
---Dennis Kucinich

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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
43. I trust her more than I do of any PUB...esp BUSH...a known EVIL LIAR
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
47. Of all the candidates, Hillary knew precisely what was up
hell, she'd been in the Whitehouse for 8 years! Does anyone really think that she and Bill didn't talk about what was really going on?

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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. I never thought of that, but you're right.
To vote the way she did, Hillary CLinton would have had to believe that the situation in Iraq had changes substanitally since January, 2000.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
56. Exactly!
To say she was fooled by Bush shows:

How stupid she thinks we are

OR

How calculating she is

OR

Both
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
48. Bush didn't need a blank check for war to threaten Saddam
into complying with the UN. That's the bottom line. Anyone who says differently is blowing smoke up your ass.
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Carolina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. no he didn't need a blank check
Edited on Sun Sep-16-07 05:46 PM by Carolina
but the Wimpocrats who sidled up to him and ceded power to him through their 'Yea' votes can't have it both ways. They aided and abetted a CRIME.

Twenty-three (23) Democartic Senators voted NO!

But not calculating HRC. She showed not MORAL or POLITICAL COURAGE when it mattered! That's a fact and no one is blowing smoke of my ass!


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cleveramerican Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 03:55 PM
Response to Original message
50. If things went differently she could claim to have championed it.
She has played both sides against the middle beautifully.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-16-07 05:54 PM
Response to Original message
57. She's a very nice person and a good Senator for NY...but she's gotta give up Defending Billl
because if he wants to be "Re-Elected" he should answer about NAFTA/SEC DEREGULATIONS/TELECOM BILL OF '96...and WHY he did that Cigar Thing with Monica in the Oval Office that opened up ALL THE CRITICISM!

WHY DID YOU THROW AWAY YOUR PRESIDENCY...BILL? WHY? You could have had the power the CHIMP/IDIOT/Entitled DID..to push forward great Democratic Reforms...but...YOU THREW IT ALL AWAY...KNOWING..the RW Mellon-Scaife and the other BIG MONEY was HUNTING YOU!!!! WATCHING YOU!

BUT..you threw it away....and now your WIFE is LEADING THE CAUSE TO BRING YOU BACK! Even if she puts you into an Ambassadorship to GET YOU OUT OF HER SIGHT!

It's all depressing.
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