Venezuela's Chavez Warns Private Schools (Who else here has a problem with this? I do.)

[Meeker Morgan]

Venezuela's Chavez Warns Private Schools
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070917/D8RNBIPO0.html

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - President Hugo Chavez threatened on Monday to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his socialist government as it develops a new curriculum and textbooks.

"Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants," said Chavez, speaking on the first day of classes.

All schools, public and private, must admit state inspectors and submit to the government's new educational system, or be closed and nationalized, with the state taking responsibility for the education of their children, Chavez said.

A new curriculum will be ready by the end of this school year, and new textbooks are being developed to help educate "the new citizen," said Chavez's brother and education minister Adan Chavez, who joined him a televised ceremony at the opening of a public school in the eastern town of El Tigre.

--- SNIP ---

[Kelly Rupert]

1. Don't be silly. He's not a dictator. Just ask him.

Well, that actually might not be a good idea. Just ask his supporters here instead.

[Vincardog]

4. Did you read the article?

The president's opponents accuse him of aiming to indoctrinate young Venezuelans with socialist ideology. But the education minister said the aim is to develop "critical thinking," not to impose a single way of thought.

"We want to create our own ideology collectively - creative, diverse," the president said, adding that it would help develop values of "cooperation and solidarity."

All schools will be bound to "subordinate themselves to the constitution" and comply with the "new Bolivarian educational system," he said, referring to his socialist movement named after South American independence hero Simon Bolivar.

Anticipating criticism, Chavez said the state's role in regulating education is internationally accepted and that it wouldn't be possible for a school administrator to insist on autonomy in countries like Germany or the United States.

Chavez also noted that previous Venezuelan educational systems carried their own ideology. Leafing through old grade school textbooks from the 1970s, he pointed out how they referred to Venezuela's "discovery" by Europeans.

"They taught us to admire Christopher Colombus and Superman," Chavez said, adding that education based on capitalist ideology had destroyed "the values of children."

[Kelly Rupert]

8. Yeah, I did.

He's forcibly standardizing education around an ideology, and banning any education not centered around his Bolivarian socialism--something rather exceptional.

This is worlds apart from simply "regulating education" as he puts it, which generally refers to educational standards as regards facts or skills, not ideologies.

[Vincardog]

12. the aim is to develop "critical thinking," not to impose a single way of thought. Your problem with

this is?

[Kelly Rupert]

15. So explain to me exactly how

imposing a "Bolivarian" ideology intended to "develop values of cooperation and solidarity" is "developing critical thinking" and "not imposing a single way of thought?" Try looking at what the policy is doing, not what Hugo claims his intent is.

Developing 'critical thinking' would be presenting several possibilities, and discussing the relative merits of each. Given the emphasis on "Bolivarism" and "solidarity," I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that the "critical thinking" will be aimed at so-called "Capitalist" thought, and the "solidarity and cooperation" with his "Bolivarian" thought. You know, indoctrination.

[Vincardog]

63. The "values of cooperation and solidarity" of the people vs the pro capatalist propaganda

spread by the flat earther's faux free traders?

I see where they do not want to indoctrinate the native people into the false belief that their country was "Discovered" by Europeans when it was already inhabited by their ancestors.

The opposition to South American's shift to populist government comes from people who are indoctrinated into the fascist imperial America slash and burn approach.

[dipsydoodle]

79. Quite apart from which

I don't really understabd WTF Hugo's policies have to do with anyone in the USA who might better spend their time amd thoughts in getting their own house in order.

IMO you expressed what said well. :toast:

[jmp]

118. Somewhere inside you must recognize ...

That what he's doing is wrong, or you would just come out and admit that you are a communist and support mandatory indoctrination.

[Vincardog]

130. HE is the DEMOCRATICLY elected President of his country. The Socialist policies he is pesuing are

what got him elected.
Do you have a problem with the concept of a President being elected by and doing things to benefit the people that elected him? BTW they are the vast majority of the population not the 1 vote margin that put aWoL in or the Electronic counting theft type.

[Nederland]

17. Amazing

"We want to create our own ideology collectively - creative, diverse..."

I want to create diversity, but eliminating anything I disagree with. It would be funny if it weren't so sad...

[Kelly Rupert]

19. Reminds me of Chairman Mao, actually.

"Let a hundred flowers bloom, let the hundred schools of thought contend."

You can always trust ideological dictators when they say they want to create diversity of thought.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. Wow-You're Taking Me Back To My Comparative Politics Course

Mao encouraged people to criticize the regime and then when the people "outed" themselves by doing just that they were executed or sent to re-education camps...

"In July 1957, Mao ordered a halt to the campaign. By that time Mao had witnessed Khrushchev denouncing Stalin and the Hungarian uprising, events he felt threatened by. To undercut potential enemies to himself, Mao utilized his Hundred Flower campaign to "(entice) snakes out of their lairs."<5> The people who had voiced criticism now came under suspicion and were rounded up in the Anti-Rightist Campaign. Mao's earlier speech, On the Correct Handling of the Contradictions Among the People, was meaningfully changed and appeared later on as an anti-rightist piece in itself.

Some concluded that Mao knew the outcome before the campaign had even began. The Hundred Flower Campaign identified critics and was used to silence them."




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Flowers_Campaign

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. Takes me back to logic class.

Specifically "reductio ad absurdum" and the slippery slope fallacy.

[LittleClarkie]

86. Like I just said elsewhere in the thread

The man's irony-meter is broken.

[1932]

121. You know that Venezuela was NOT discovered by Europe, right?

[jefferson_dem]

18. LOL!! Anyone here really believe he's interested in developing "critical thinkers"?

What a fucking joke... :rofl:

[kenfrequed]

36. It is difficult

But we must take Chavez in context to our relations with these nations. Reform of some kind was inevitable and needed. We may not agree with all the particulars of the form but had we allowed for actual un-croniest democracy we may not have Chavez now.

[Vincardog]

65. The joke is that US schools are all pro capitalist indoctrination.

[jmp]

120. What public school did you attend?

I don't remember any pro-capitalist anything.

[Vincardog]

129. Then you must not have attended any public school in the USA.

[papau]

94. I was about to say the same - no big deal unless our US State curriculum rules are evil n/t

n/t

[LittleClarkie]

85. Well, you might not want to think that out loud

"How dare you call me a dictator! I'll have you deported for that!"

The man's irony-meter is broken.

[wyldwolf]

2. yeah, I have a problem with it.

[riverdale]

3. Everything Chavez does is great.

We have charter and private schools here in the US that really don't have any standards. Some are great, some are useless, and none are accountable. So if the school completely fails the students, the public school gets to take those kids back.

[northzax]

39. private schools are much more accountable

than public schools in the US are. take my prep school, for instance. If people don't like the education their children are getting, how many of them will continue to pay $22,000/year for it? If they don't like the headmaster, the guidance counselor, the soccer coach, they can take their money elsewhere. Without tuition and donations, the school goes under (it happens fairly often, actually) most private, non-religious schools in the US have to outcompete the rest of the field, since they are so much more expensive than other options. obviously, people think they are getting something for their money they can't get elsewhere, or they wouldn't pay so much, right?

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

112. and what about people who

can't spend 1000s of $ for schools?

While i get a little skeptical about Chavez ways some oversight is needed in schools that are not only accessible by the elite, even those that are. Let's face it the age of democracy is coming to an end. At least Chavez tries to position his country stronger in interior and exterior affairs with the people and their blessing. Can US say that? Russland (Putin is quite popular i've heard but i can't say for sure) or China?

[northzax]

116. they go to state schools

which are the business of the State. And the state should spend its education resources working to ensure that those schools are as good as they can be, not worrying about private ones.

[LittleClarkie]

87. Everything? Absolutely everything?

Not one misstep?

[Froward69]

5. problem here too

reeducation seems to be next

[Kelly Rupert]

9. With all respect, there's an enormous difference between

mandating a socialist bent in primary education and outright violence against political enemies. Chavez isn't as hamfisted as the Soviets were.

[dipsydoodle]

6. What's the issue ?

For the first time in their history even the elderlie are becoming literate by going to school. Chances are that the private schools are just aiming to turn out future right wing corporates rather than provide any help whatsoever to the main population.

[Dhalgren]

7. Viva Chavez!

:applause:

[Flarney]

10. No problem here. n/t

[Bo]

11. If it looks like a duck.....it's a Dictator

El Dictador is now going after the hearts and minds of the children...lolololololololol..

[midlife_mo_Jo]

14. Of course

Soon, he'll have nation wide Pioneer groups for children. If they refuse to be indoctrinated, they will be deprived of higher education.

Just think - we can go from being slaves to the corporatists to being slaves for someone like Chavez. If one is not a right wing, corporate worshipping freeper, and not a left wing Chavez lover, where does one fit in around on the web?

I suspect my days here are numbered. lolololololol, too.

[LanternWaste]

21. it could be a loon

If it looks like a duck..... it could be a loon or a coot. Most people can't tell the difference between the two because they look quite similar on the surface. Only after careful examination do the astounding differences make themselves known.

[msongs]

13. seig heil hugo nt

[High Plains]

24. What an asinine remark.

Of course, I suppose it serves it you have nothing of substance to say.

[jefferson_dem]

16. Viva the Opposition ...

to Hugo and his power-grabbing demagoguery.

[High Plains]

23. Yeah, Venezuela really needs another reactionary oligarchy...

...to run it into the ground like the last one did.

You know, you've just sided with the CIA, the neo-cons, and the Latin American right wing. Enjoy the company.

[jefferson_dem]

66. DId you forget Jimmy Carter, Amnesty International, and HRW...?

Cheers!

Oh, and the only despot missing from this "group hug" is Chimpy himself...

[LittleClarkie]

88. Fascists, all of them.

Fascists, I tell you!!

[killbotfactory]

108. It's sad when the efforts of those groups are only used to justify attacking nations.

Especially when there are human rights problems in nearly every nation on the planet.

[dipsydoodle]

73. Next - the antis here will be whining

because Hugo has given them compulsory free health care too.

[LittleClarkie]

89. Why do they hate America?

Why are they haters?

[jmp]

122. deleted

...

[endarkenment]

20. Literacy in Venezuela 1991 vs 2005 (unesco's latest data)

pre-primary enrollment rates
1991: 40% 2005: 62%

primary enrollment rates
1991: 87% 2005: 91%

secondary enrollment rates
1991: 18% 2005: 63%

http://stats.uis.unesco.org/unesco/TableViewer/document.aspx?ReportId=121&IF_Language=eng&BR_Country=8620

You may not like the central government establishing comprehensive standards for all educational institutions, but the practice is commonplace. No Child Left Behind?

[Freddie Stubbs]

27. How many of those illiterates went to privates schools vs. public schools?

:shrug:

[endarkenment]

28. My guess is that illiterates don't go to school.

But I am only guessing.

[dipsydoodle]

70. It's not just no child left behind

even the old folk are at school beooming literate and proud of the fact their Constitution is printed on grocery packets which they can now read.

[endarkenment]

125. NCLB is just indicative of the hypocrisy on display here.

The federal state and local governments across our country regulate public and private education, as they should, legislate textbook requirements, and impose ideology. The problem our friends have is that they do not like the ideology of the Bolivarian Movement. At least they could be honest with their objections.

[High Plains]

22. Ah, another Chavez-bashing DU circle jerk.

Are any of you as interested in educational curricula in the US?

[stimbox]

25. American schools did a really good job at capitalist indoctrination.

Just look at some of the responses here.

[jaksavage]

26. Roger that High Plains

Our own texts are as corrupt as they can be.
Why do these fire breathers so willingly bash a social reformer.
We could use a big dose of reeducation right here in the USA.

[cali]

33. Not always true

My son went to public school here in VT. From 7th grade on, all his social studies and history texts, could only be characterized as progressive- including Zinn.

[redqueen]

37. Consider your location...

While your child gets an entirely reasonable education in history... other children are taught that evolution is barely a theory and that the labor movement never happened.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. I Went To School In Rural Florida

We learned about Samuel Gompers and The Haymarket Riot...We really didn't discuss evolution... Unless things have changed a lot since the seventies most educators come from the left... Who else is going to sacrifice and work for mediocre wages...

[jaksavage]

38. With all due respect

Our society is squarely cultured to war, sexism, lying about our attrocities we commited, etc, etc.
While I too can point to an exception, our history/shestory is very edited. Our society is living proof.

[cali]

44. with all due respect

Vermont is still part of the U.S. and I'm telling you what kind of education my son got in public school here. I'm not denying that much of our society is rooted in those things you mentioned, but you're using a very broad brush.

[redqueen]

32. It's beyond sickening.

Guess right-wing propoganda is really catching on with 'lefties'.

[paulk]

48. so anything that doesn't fit into your ideology

is right wing?

[redqueen]

51. No... right wing is right wing. n/t

[paulk]

77. which to you is anything right of your ideology

apparently.

[LittleClarkie]

92. There was a picture of Reagan in the newspaper office where I used to work

It looked all warped. The caption said, "If this picture looks distorted to you, you're not standing far enough to the right."

I reckon you have to stand pretty far to the left for Chavez to look normal.

[redqueen]

128. Actually that's completely backwards.

People in this country think that democrats are "left" when they're really in the center.

[killbotfactory]

49. Mean old Chavez, standardizing education in his country

Will the tyranny ever stop?

If only we could install a right wing "strongman" who will teach those uppity peasants that Columbus is a hero, while they hack union organizers to death with chainsaws, torturing people by the hundreds in soccor stadiums, or massacring people on the steps of a church. That'll teach them to reject the "free market" of murderous US monopolies!

[rinsd]

61. I don't know. Is Bush's brother in charge of it like Chavez's brother is there?

[LittleClarkie]

91. Criticism is not bashing

Or is the man above criticism?

[killbotfactory]

29. "Society cannot allow the private sector to do whatever it wants"

Sure it can, just look at the USA! We've never been in better shape!

[kenfrequed]

30. There are more dangerous concerns

Chavez became more complicated only AFTER we aided a coup by the wealthy elite of Venezeula. He is doing good for the majority of the people of his nation.

Until recently the media in his country was divided between a corporate media controlled entirely by his opposition and backers of the original coup that literally put forth an unendign stream of lies. Even legitimate government confronted by this would have trouble working properly.

That said I do think that Chavez is a less than ideal person to be in charge. As far as his modification of education standards I am suspicious, but I save my concerns for the government I have the greatest possibility of affecting change on- the United States government.

[cobalt1999]

31. How some people can twist their brains to support this guy is beyond me.

I suggest taking a news article and substituting the name Bush instead of Chavez and see if the same people would be so passionate supporting the same thing.

e.g. President Bush threatened to close or take over any private school that refuses to submit to the oversight of his government.

If you are a Chavezite can support that statement, then I can forgive you for supporting Chavez. If not, then you are a hypocrite.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

34. Because he's doing some good things. He's still heading dictatorwards, though.

A lot of things that Chavez is doing are things that, in themselves I heartily support.

It does appear to be the case that, at least in the short term, he is improving things for the poor of his country.

Unfortunately, while doing this, he's also slowly abolishing democracy in Venezuela. I don't think it's fair to call him a dictator quite yet, but it's obvious that that is the direction he is moving in and that he is not going to let anyone remove him from power, by democratic means or otherwise - he will take whatever steps are necessary to prevent an opposition developing.

The good things that he's doing, though, encourage a lot of liberals good at self delusion to ignore this. The fact that he says nasty things about Bush also gets him depressingly much support from the Western left.

If he left power tomorrow, I think that on balance his legacy would be more positive than not.

I do not think that the same will be the case when he actually does leave power.

[cobalt1999]

41. Good reply.

You are correct. Unfortunately, the positives are blinding some folks to the increasing negatives.

There are some principles I support and if any government violates them, then I disagree. That goes for Bush or Chavez. I don't understand the mindset of supporting some things that Chavez does, but if Bush did the same things, then exact same people would be ready to revolt. :shrug:

[kenfrequed]

78. oh sure

If Bush created education programs to ensure every American could get an education.
If Bush provided housing for all Americans.
If Bush took the privatized oil profits away from private corporations owned by companies that are controlled by the richest .1% and a tool to take natural resources and export them to another nation.

Yeah then I would definitely be all about being Anti-Bush. (Maximum Sarchasm intended)


Seriously though, Chavez is a symptom. NOT a problem. If you want fewer Chavez' then you have to respect the democratic process in other nations. And you also have to do away with the World Bank, the IMF, and the WTO/GATT crowd because these orgs just exist to use debt to leverage and enslave developing nations. They enrich the hands of the very few at the expense of the many which is probably the furthest thing from Democracy you could find

[Donald Ian Rankin]

80. I think you misunderstand democracy. It's nothing to do with the distribution of wealth.

"They enrich the hands of the very few at the expense of the many which is probably the furthest thing from Democracy you could find."

Democracy emphatically does not mean "good government".

It means "government by the governed, either directly or through appointing representatives".

It has nothing whatsoever to do with the distribution of wealth, and conflating the two makes it harder to understand either.

[kenfrequed]

81. Uhm

But wealth in a capitalist country is power. Wealth determines which voices get to be heard and who ends up going home unhappy.

Yes I "conflated" economics with democracy, but you are not talking to some wet behind the ears high school student here. Only someone hopelessly, almost criminally simple minded could possibly claim that somehow the two are completely unrelated.

"You can either have the vast aquistion of power and wealth by a select few or you can have democracy, you cannot have both"--badly paraphrased and uncited quotation that seems fairly reasonable to me.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

83. I think the USA trivially disproves your point.

The only way to deny that the USA is a democracy is to redefine the word beyond all possible recognition.

But you certainly have vast aquisition of wealth by a select few, and while the link between that and power is nowhere near as strong as many people think it is, it's certainly non-trivial.

So clearly, the two can coexist.

There are various things that can't coexist with vast aquisition of wealth and power by a select few - egality being an obvious one - but democracy, in any sane usage of the word, isn't one of them.

[kenfrequed]

105. er or err?

I suppose pointing out the absolute prevalence of election fraud in the last couple of cycles doesn't factor in? Or how the fact that the media owned by massive powerful corporations acting as a kind of kingmaker and choosing which candidates are "viable" before a single caucus or primary has been held. That doesn't factor either I guess.

Or how about a raw measurement of what kind of money it takes to run for the house, senate, or the presidency?

Rather than commenting whether my ideal of democracy is sane or not perhaps you should rationally analyze the economic barriers to political power and how realistic it is for a candidate without money to circumvent these limitations.

[endarkenment]

35. Passionatly supporting this?

No pal, the passion is from your camp which examines every social program from the Venezuelan government, carefully poking though its entrails to discover omens of a Stalinist Nightmare.

No Child Left Behind?

Oh yeah, it only wrecked public education.

[northzax]

42. this isn't talking about public education

this is talking about private education. If I want to send my child to a school that teaches that the bible is literally true, why can't I? if I want to send my child to a school that teaches market-based economics, why can't I? if I want to send my child to a school that teaches communal living and social responsibility (like my prep school did) why can't I, if I am willing and able to pay for it?

[tigereye]

58. exactly!

the whole premise Chavez seems to be operating under is very heavy- handed.

[DangerDave921]

40. I hear ya!

Apparently, there are some DU'ers who love a big, powerful, overreaching federal government when they like the policies being forced upon the people. But flip that around to policies that DU'ers DON'T agree with, and suddenly the government is violating the constitution and treading upon peoples' rights, etc.

I take an equal-opportunity view of too much government power. I don't care who the party in charge is -- if the government treads on the rights of the people, it is a bad government. I don't care how good their intentions are or how much some people like being tread on.

Chavez has been about as plain as he can be in declaring himself above the people, and imposing his political policies on the people. I fail to see why some on here love the guy.

[cobalt1999]

43. I hear you.

I support principles over people. The Chavez folks tend to overlook any violations of principles over their love of the man. I'll never understand that.

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

113. Chavez - Bush

Short summuary (complete at wish)

Chavez:
Supported by the people who even went on the streets to get him back against coupers and military
Free healthcare for all
Raises Literacy in Venezuela
Rallies S. America for common goals
Nationalizes Oil for the own country
Land reforms
Talks to the people


Bush
Suspected by a great many to have couped against the own people
Begun wars in Haiti, Afghanistan and Irak
Sells out USA
Enriches himself and his cronies
Makes an ass of USA on the Globe
Talks to god

Who do you want to have oversight in the schools?

[cobalt1999]

123. Neither.

Like others have said, the good things he's done have blinded many to the increasingly bad things.

A bad thing is still bad, even if someone who has previously done good things is doing it.

[laureloak]

45. Chavez has crossed the line into dictatorship. n/t

[FuJun]

46. Excellent...

Genuine diversity is only possible in a socialist democracy. Hugo "gets it"!

[silverweb]

47. Don't U.S. schools have accreditation standards?

Isn't that government oversight?

:shrug:

[killbotfactory]

50. Don't trust facts, trust your "gut"

The truthiness of the situation is that Chavez is a dictator. End of story.

[redqueen]

52. ...

:thumbsup:

[IsItJustMe]

72. Yeah, Pat Robertson and his supporters don't like him either, and if it's good enough for Pat, it's

got to be good enough for us.

[northzax]

54. nope

not mandatory accredidation standards. people may not accept your diploma, but you don't need to be accredited to call yourself a school. I can start up a school tomorrow, if I want, and can get people to pay me for it.

oh, and most accredidation is done by trade associations, not the government. the government, for instance, doesn't accredit law schools, the ABA does. the government doesn't accredit medical schools, the AMA does. the government doesn't accredit private, non-religious high schools, the National Association of Independant Schools (NAIS) or their regional affiliates do. Catholic schools are accredited by the local diocese. it is not the government.

[cobalt1999]

57. Universities earn accreditation...

but the accreditors are non-government agencies.

[northzax]

60. and there is no legal requirement to be accredited

of course, you can't get Federal funding without it, but you don't NEED to be accredited if you can operate financially without it.

[Eric J in MN]

90. A high school can't give out diplomas without meeting state standards. NT

NT

[northzax]

97. Bullshit

Sorry, but you are flat out wrong on this. Most states allow schools without any standards at all.

[Eric J in MN]

101. Do state colleges have admission standards...

...for what courses students should have taken in high school?

[northzax]

114. of course

most colleges and universities, public or private, do. that's not government accredidation of a school. as I said, your diploma may not be recognized by everyone, but anyone can found a school and hand out diplomas. Look at the diploma mill online schools, not illegal, just not any good.

[Larry Ogg]

67. I knew someone had to ask this question.

I knew some kids that were home taught by their mother, can’t get no more private than that, and every so often they had to take test from the state and if their grades were to fall below a certain standard they would have had to go to public school.

I also knew kids that went to Catholic School and pretty much the same thing, had to pass certain standards just like in public school. I’m not sure, but I think they were even given required courses in evolution.

[killbotfactory]

109. I bet you didn't realize that you lived in a totalitarian dictatorship

Learn something new every!

[Larry Ogg]

119. Nope, this is quite a shocking revelation.

It was this way long before the unelected occupiers of the White House were installed. I can’t say for sure but I think this is the way it was even when JFK was president.

Hmm, maybe that’s why the CIA knocked him off and there was no real investigation…

[ieoeja]

53. So we should let the Madrassas in Iraq continuing teaching kids to become terrorists? n/t

[northzax]

56. sure.

why not? should we force all schools in Iraq to teach that George Bush liberated them from Saddam?

[tigereye]

55. I don't like the tone of it....

[rinsd]

59. National education standards are fine but why is ideology part of this at all?

And how did Chavez's brother come to be education minister?

Was that Chavez using his power of decree?

[killbotfactory]

62. It's a position in his cabinet

No decree necessary

[rinsd]

64. Did he have any qualifications for the position?

[rjones2818]

68. Probably the same amount

as Bobby had when he was AG!

:)

:hide:

[rinsd]

69. Well Bobby did serves as counsel and chief counsel to a number of Congressional committees.

Perhaps Chavez's brother has a background in education.

[northzax]

98. Oh funny

His background is being a guerilla revolutionary. Did Adan even go to high school? Unclear.

[killbotfactory]

110. What were Hillary's qualifications for reforming healthcare under Bill?

[northzax]

115. i dunno

top five graduate from the best law school in the country, consistently ranked as one of the best lawyers in the country while in private practice, despite working in Little Rock, not New York, DC or LA?

[LittleClarkie]

100. After I asked the same question, I remembered RFK and JFK

hard to argue too much about that.

[paulk]

104. but because of the jfk/rfk situation a law was passed

that prohibits such nepotism.

[IsItJustMe]

71. Sounds like Chavez's version of "No child left behind".

[SOS]

82. The oil company press releases are really successful.

Since when are Americans "concerned" about the details of Latin American education standards?
A rather obscure topic for us to get upset about.

Speaking of schools... Families opposed to this monstrous dictator in Equatorial Guinea are simply executed en masse:



But since he has an oil deal with Exxon, nobody gives a shit.
Condi calls him "my good friend".

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. You talk about everything except the thing that's actually being discussed.

Yes, most North Americans are not overly concerned with education standards in Latin America.

This doesn't mean that what Hugo Chavez is doing isn't wrong.

Yes, Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo is a deeply unpleasant dictator.

This doesn't mean that what Hugo Chavez is doing isn't wrong.


I think it's fairly clear that you're posting because you don't like Hugo Chavez being criticised. But I think that "look, pretty colours, forget all about this", which is all you have so far offered, is not a valid response.

Rebut the criticism, sure.
Acknowledge the criticism, but say that you still support him for other reasons, sure.
Say nothing at all even, sure.

But joining a thread to try and stop people thinking about something you don't want them to think about isn't something I approve of.

[LittleClarkie]

99. Very well said. The other response that gets my goat

is the "Those who criticize Chavez are just a bunch of haters" or "Here come the anti-Chavez people"

Reminds me of "Why do you hate the President? Why do you hate America?"

Which is why what Chavez does is not nearly as creepy to me as how his supporters react to him. It's very Bush supporter-like.

[SOS]

106. You don't "approve"?

My response is valid and your approval is not something I am interested in having.

The anti-Chavez hysteria in the US is manufactured outrage.
It's oil industry propaganda.
Setting the stage for another American-backed coup.
Nothing more or less.

The constant whining about Chavez is ridiculous when compared to the brutal, murderous dictatorships of Burma, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan or Equatorial Guinea.
It's not "pretty colors", it's pointing out hypocrisy.
My concern in regard to human rights is not based on which country has an oil deal with Exxon, but rather on their actual records.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

117. None of those regimes have support bases on DU.

The reason so many DUers bother to criticise Chavez rather than other, worse rulers is because so many people here are still trying to pretend he's a paragon of democracy and good government. No-one here denies that the Burmese or Uzbek regimes are very unpleasant indeed, so there's not much point asserting it, either,

[Totally Committed]

84. With everything on our plate in THIS country.... why are we in this man's business?

Let him run his country. When the people are tired of him, they'll remove him.

We need to concentrate of getting rid of THIS administration, and tend to OUR OWN problems. This fascination with what Chavez is doing is getting ridiculous.

It's none of our business.

TC

[Donald Ian Rankin]

96. No, they won't be able to. That's precisely what this move is about.

The reason this policy is alarming is because it's yet another move by Hugo Chavez to ensure that no opposition movement will be able to compete with him on anything like equal terms, and that he will never again have to face a free or fair election.

[Bonobo]

93. B,but rich people should be able to do whatever they want... privately!

[dugggy]

102. Chavez is on track to turn Venezuela into another Cuba

That is a typical MO of communist/socialist dictators.
They must indoctrinate starting at a young age otherwise
the masses might develop critical thinking and overthrow
the regimes.

The problem is the countries ruled by these despots never
prosper, and people try to escape to better lands where
opportunities are available. How many people are escaping
from USA to Cuba? How many Cubans have escaped to USA?

I rest my case.

[killbotfactory]

111. And George Washington could never tell a lie.

[IndianaGreen]

103. Those private schools are for the very wealthy, and are run by Opus Dei clerics

I remember the photo of those students at a fashion mall a few months ago, wearing their best designer clothes, carrying anti-Chavez signs during their Church-engineered "student strike."

[jmp]

127. Oh brother!

Wait a minute ... you understand Floridians being pissed about getting screwed over by the DNC ... but you think Venezuelans that are getting screwed by Chavez need to be "engineered" into protesting???

Whether it's the US or Venezuela or any place else ... people don't like it when you screw them to the wall. I don't know what is so hard to understand about that.

[ludwigb]

107. I sympathize with Chavez

But I don't know about this move. I think it could be justiable if those Church (or other) schools won't submit to any regulation. You can't allow the school system to be a hotbed of revolutionary action or a tool for foreign interests to take over the nation's resources.

One thing I find deeply sad about modern Venezuela is the tendency to take excessive actions to protect the Constitution because they believe they are under threat and in danger. If the conflict with the Church (as well as the former aristrocracy) escalates, Chavez won't be able to maintain the loyalty of large segments of the populace. Shades of the Spanish conflict continue to assert themselves.

All that said I support Chavez's actions to protect the rights of the people enshrined in the new Constitution. They are under attack because the interests of capital are not the same. I'm inclined to keep the faith and ask questions about the press about Venezuela coming from the mainstream media. There's just too much distortion out there--the real story of Chavez's concrete reforms for health care and education are going unreported. You don't often achieve such reforms without pissing off and/or expropriating the elites.

[cobalt1999]

126. "You can't allow the school system to be a hotbed of revolutionary action"

Sounds like something Nixon or Bush would say.

[jmp]

124. I love all the "pro-capitalist" bashers on DU

Life really sucks when you're rich huh? :eyes: