Boy, hardly anyone gets it...

[WCGreen]

The only way to insure health care for all is to remove the insurance companies from the mix...

For one, having insurance in the middle completely distorts any kind of free market mechanism, if you believe in such things for health care, to work...

How can I, as an informed consumer, "shop around" for the best health care when I first have to "shop around" for insurance...

That is what drives me crazy about republican doubts about a centralized health care...

I mean they have great faith in the military, they are the first to salute every poor sap that goes in the armed forces and cry crocodile tears when a constituent is killed in action, which is, of course, the government at work and yet they don't want all the people to have health care because the government can't handle anything...

It's an Aflack moment...

We trust our national security to a completely closed market system and yet we can't trust the government to run health care...

[SaveElmer]

1. And what is your strategy to convince Congress...

To eliminate the health care industry in the next 4 years?

[WCGreen]

5. At least one of the top tier candidates could be talking about it...

And not just tinkering around the very large footprint the insurance industry stomps down whenver Universal Health Care comes about...

BTW, it's not the health care industry that should be reworked, it is just getting away from the insurance companies making decisions of life and death while trying to gouge a very, very, very, large profit...

[truedelphi]

20. And they gage/gouge that profit in a way that doesn't even make sense

The Powers that be have been known to APPROVE a guy getting a major by pass surgery - we are talking upwards of 40K in expense. Maybe up to 80K.

And then they will NOT APPROVE the drugs that will keep infection from setting in - so the patient has the surgery but dies of infection.

Just where does this make sense??

[gateley]

21. We need to get OUR candidates of choice to become aware this is what

we want if our choice isn't in the Celebrity Candidate spotlight.

I sent an e-mail to my guy stating that his proposal just didn't cut it for me. That we need to get the insurance companies out of it regardless of the political pressure, and since ALL candidates are for getting us out of Iraq, the deciding factor for whom I vote could well be health care.

They talk about 'reform' but they're just re-packaging the old stuff with a few band-aids here and there.

Pisses me off.

[SaveElmer]

37. Yes I meant the Health Care insurance industry..and you didn't answer the question...

And do you think it is morally correct for 47 million Americans to go uncovered while we wait for that magical day when government run health care becomes politically viable?

[WCGreen]

46. Since I am almost surely going to be number 47 million and 1...

I have a personal stake in this debate...

Why would you even think that I was morally incorrect because I didn't answer your question...

The only way we can get universal health care is to get rid of the Insurance industry...

[ProudDad]

31. How about getting impediments like you out of the way (n/t)

[NV Whino]

2. Oh, "they" get it...

it's just that the insurance companies contribute great gobs of money to "them."

[CaliforniaPeggy]

3. Ah, now you're talking!

Isn't this what DK wants?

Single payer health care....

It's about time, don't you think?

I'm afraid that it's the impossible dream...

The insurance companies have waaaaaaay too much clout...

Too bad...

K&R

[WCGreen]

9. Unfortunately, DK ain't gonna get elected...

[ProudDad]

32. He don't have to

but for SURE, hillary MUSN'T!!!!

I can see Edwards or Obama signing HR676 into law but hillary will make another cluster-fuck out of the whole process again -- just as she did back then...

[whistle]

4. Insurance companies want to move in on Medicare and take their 30%

...leaving far less care for the elderly. The HMOs train the doctors to just give less service and drug the patients and let them die! Look at the pharmaceuticals doing greater injury to patients then are actually helping them, toxic to vital organs, doping up the elderly causing more damaging falls, etc.

I can see Blackwater moving into the medical insurance field in the not too distant future with a program of euthanasia for Medicare patients.

[WCGreen]

7. Soylent Green

[gateley]

23. I'm sure they're working on the recipe right now. Addressing health care,

feeding the hungry, and re-cycling all in one package. God I love our government!

[WCGreen]

29. It's that American Can Do spirit.....

Gotta love it...

[CTyankee]

39. Um, did you forget the sarcasm thingie?

I come to DU looking for reasoned arguments. Maybe people are just too upset now to make those arguments, but really, does this add value to the debate?

Ditto those posts in which half of it is in expletives in caps.

I'm disappointed that we don't have single payer health care now. I'm unhappy that we're not having itin our top tier candidate choices plans. But I am looking for ideas on how we can get the discussion to include single payer in a much more serious way than we have now. Suggestingthat our governmentis going to make food out of our dead bodies just doesn't cut it in the rational debate area...

Maybe I'm asking too much of this web site. I'm getting discouraged...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. Another huge component...

Of this is going to have to be cost containment with the drug companies and healthcare providers.

[WCGreen]

8. If they were motivated to make decisions based on need instead of

what the insurance company will allow, perhpas that would solve much of the problem...

All the insurance companies do is distort the market...

[MonkeyFunk]

10. This is politics

you can't always get the perfect. You have to take what you can get.

The trillion-dollar health-care industry isn't going to be dismantled overnight.

[WCGreen]

12. No shit...

But at least someone should be talking about it...

[regnaD kciN]

15. No, but a plan whose essence is "criminalize the uninsured"...

...is, if anything, much, much worse than the current non-system.

[MonkeyFunk]

16. well if that's all it did

I would agree.

But that's not the purpose of the plan.

[regnaD kciN]

17. That may not be the "purpose" of the plan...

...but it will be the effect of the plan.

"When you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remind yourself that your initial objective was to drain the swamp."

[MonkeyFunk]

19. call me when they start arresting people

for not having insurance. Until then, I'm not gonna bother to get too exercised about it.

[ljm2002]

28. They won't arrest them, they'll fine them

Furthermore, it will be a bureaucratic nightmare to administer. In fact from a paperwork and complexity point of view, this health care proposal is not a single whit better -- not even a tiny bit -- than what we have now. And that is one of the problems we have now. Not to mention, what we're all harping on but it deserves repeating: the for-profit health insurance companies make money by denying people care.

Universal single payer health care, no strings attached, paid for by tax monies. That is what we need and that is what progressives should be fighting for.

[ProudDad]

33. Well

you're obviously one of the "insured" who thinks they have health care coverage...

Fuck the rest, eh?

[ProudDad]

30. The law of "unintended" consequences

ciminalize those who can't afford health insurance...

Health "insurance" is NOT HEALTH CARE (stupid bitch, she should know that by now!)...

May not be the purpose of the plan in her pea-sized brain but that's the fucking result if that shit got made into law!!!

It's that crap from Mass. made worse...

HR676 -- Universal Single-Payer Medicare for all. A much easier sell than hillaryCare. That's the plan they should all be supporting but ObamClintWards have already SOLD THEMSELVES to the corporations on this issue (and many others)...

Those who advocate for or would settle for this shit, this HUGE step backwards that throws MORE MONEY at the insurance corporations, supplies MORE CORPORATE WELFARE are are lower than slime...

[ljm2002]

27. Thank you!

That is exactly the problem I have with these "universal health insurance" that people are required to obtain. There are so, so many reasons why a person might fall between the cracks either short-term or long-term, and it would be so complicated to keep records and verify insurance etc. -- and every time something happened to someone in that situation they'd be punished financially even more than today. That sounds like a nightmare to me, not a solution to our healthcare crisis.

[regnaD kciN]

11. The whole rationale of private insurance companies...

...is not to provide health care, but to make a profit. That means that they have to take in (in premiums) more than they spend (in coverage).

Keeping private insurance companies in the mix essentially means that the costs of such a system (whether those costs are paid by the government, employers, or individuals forced to buy insurance under "individual mandate") will not merely work out to the amount of money necessary to provide sufficient health care to all...it will come out to that amount plus whatever profit the insurance industry decides it feels like charging.

So that's essentially what's notable about "individual mandate" plans: you, the average American, will be required by law to shell out at least a percentage of your income to provide a profit for the private insurance company of your choice, above and beyond that which would be your "fair share" to provide universal health care. The only difference from the current, completely private system is that you would no longer have the option, if financially strapped, of going uninsured and taking your chances on not getting sick or injured -- you'd have to buy insurance, whether you could afford it or not. If you're lucky, part of that may be covered by tax credits. Maybe.

:argh:

[WCGreen]

13. You got it...

[TankLV]

18. Yep - just like we do now for Auto Insurance.

I think Auto Insurance should be an individual's choice to do or not to do so...once we eliminated that, the rates would PLUMET...

We already have to pay for uninsured motorists coverage anyway, and those who don't have it will get NOTHING if they are in an accident...

Mandatory complete GOVERNMENT PAID FOR and provided HEALTH CARE for all - fuck the insurance companies - leave them to insure Madonna's breast thingys and Arnold's shrinking dick and balls...

[ProudDad]

34. When I got my first driver's license

in Virginia, there was a statewide risk pool that a portion of each person's registration contributed to...

No need for private insurance...

The insurance companies lobbied the legislatures to pass car insurance mandates and destroy the pools...

Sound familiar?

Same bullshit, different day...

[mike_c]

14. hospitals negotiate deals with insurance companies....

So do pharmaceutical companies, diagnostic facilities, other treatment providers, and to a lesser extent, doctors. Problem is, those deals are considered privileged business information, and they don't generally divulge them. So say you need to have your gall bladder removed, and being an informed consumer you call local hospitals to find out how much they charge for the work. In the first place, most will try not to give you any information about costs up front, but even if you can pry the information out of them, it won't do you any good whatsoever. So you find out that hospital X charges $40,000 on average for the surgery and other costs, while hospital Y charges $45,000. Does that mean that hospital X is a better deal? Not necessarily, because the number that counts is the balance that insurance won't cover, which you're going to get a bill for even if you have insurance, but NO ONE will divulge that information. It's a "secret," and is generally negotiated individually with hospitals, so while hospital Y might charge $5,000 more for the procedure, they might also have a better deal with your insurance company, resulting in lower out-of-pocket costs for you, the patient. But you will never know until they have you by the gall bladder.

Insurance companies HATE transparency, and so do for-profit hospitals, labs, pharmaceutical companies, etc. This, as much as any other reason, is why we need a single payer health care system with only the government-- transparent government-- between patients and providers. The insurance companies have helped create the current mess. They will not profit from fixing it, so they won't ever be part of the solution.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

47. Privileged for sure!

We recently got a bill from a surgeon for FIFTEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS! Day surgery!

Our health insurance company did pay - THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS! That's the negotiated "difference." We didn't have to pay anything extra. Thank goodness!

Amazing, huh?

[NanceGreggs]

22. You said it!

"The only way to insure health care for all is to remove the insurance companies from the mix."

End.Of.Discussion.

How much faith would you have in your local fire department if they were operating for-profit, and their BIGGEST profit came from letting your house burn to the ground?

[gateley]

24. Excellent analogy. nt

[WCGreen]

25. Exactly....

[Triana]

26. They get it, but they can't profit from it so...

...we DON'T get it - decent healthcare, that is.

[ProudDad]

35. We won't get Universal Health Care in this country

until we tell every Dem candidate and office holder that if we DON'T GET IT, we will vote them out of office.

And FOLLOW UP ON THAT THREAT!!! VOTE THEM OUT OF OFFICE...

If my congresscritter votes for hillaryCare or any such I will work for her opponent in the following election. I PROMISE, SWEAR and VOW to do everything I can to defeat ANY person Democrat or republican that doesn't support Universal Single-Payer...100%

[superkia]

40. Tell them you will vote Kucinich because of his health care plan...

and because he wants us out of these wars for profit. Wishful thinking on my part. 2008 Presidential elections...More of the same!

The country is headed in a wonderful direction, go corporate profits, down with the people. My vote wont be going to the corporations, I will leave that to the people that believe in their profits at our cost.

[fenriswolf]

36. no brainer

with the premiums, copays and deductables citizens getcharged with, with the Xdollars per hour that employers get charged with, with the enourmous insurance amounts that doctors need to legally practice. Do you actually wonder where the money will come from for socialize medicene? for me....it sells itself.

[OwnedByFerrets]

38. If your premise were completely accurate,

"We trust our national security to a completely closed market system", we would not be buying a mercenary army called Blackwater. This is the future of the amerikan military.

[tigereye]

41. not only Republicans have doubts about centralized/single payer health care

just sayin.

[William769]

42. Talk about not getting it.

If you think you are going to get socialized medicine in America, or any health plan in America without the insurance companies help. I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'll sell you.

[tigereye]

43. I have had to deal with insurance companies in my work for decades now

some are wonderful and some are crappy. The crappy ones should be abolished - they are an embarrassment.

I can only say that based on my dealings with private insurers vs. Medicaid, the commercial insurances are much better at paying their bills.

At the same time, I do want everyone to get health care, and I don't see why the govt in any form has to administer it/pay it. I would rather see a monolith like BC/BS do it, since they actually know how to do it. Not perfectly, but better than MA.

[William769]

44. My apologies to you tigereye

I meant fo my post to go to the original OP but when I posted , I had just finished reading your post and did nt click back on the original one.

Once again my apologies.

[tigereye]

45. that's cool

I like to post to what I thought people meant, and who they meant to post to - must be part of my psychic powers - or lack thereof.

No biggie.