Clinton envisions having "to show proof ...you're insured as a part of the job interview."

[Stephanie]

How's that going to go over?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070919/ap_on_el_pr/clinton_ap_interview_16

Clinton sees lessons in past failure
By BETH FOUHY, Associated Press Writer
15 minutes ago

WASHINGTON - Thirteen years after presiding over the biggest policy debacle of her husband's presidency, Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday her experience with failure makes her the one who can succeed in providing universal health coverage.

***

Clinton touched on several issues in a 20-minute interview with the AP, but health care was the dominant topic.

The New York Democrat unveiled her health care plan Monday in Iowa, promising to bring coverage to all by building on the current employer-based system and using tax credits to make insurance more affordable. The centerpiece of her plan is a so-called "individual mandate," requiring everyone to have health insurance the way most states require drivers to purchase auto insurance.

***

On her health care plan, Clinton said she planned to enforce the mandate to purchase health care through tax credits and other incentives.

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," she said. But she said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview — like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination."

Such details would be worked out later through negotiations with Congress, she said.

<more at link>

[Vilis Veritas]

1. Like a LEAD F'ing Balloon...

Peace.

[The Doctor.]

40. It occurs to no one that she might be saying just that?

Seriously, perhaps she is speaking about what might happen if people are not universally covered. Perhaps she can 'envision' employers not hiring if you don't have health care under our current system.

-Just looking for the BOTD. I can't automatically assume that the OP is taken in full context.

[Mythsaje]

64. Sorry, but I think the quote comes out as pretty damning...

That's not a hypothetical. That's part of the plan. The wording is pretty clear.

[regnaD kciN]

2. Good Lord...!

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," she said. But she said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview — like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination."

I thought one of the hallmarks of this program was that employers were supposed to provide insurance to their employees? If so, why the hell would you need to "prove" to your prospective employer that you already have insurance?

:wtf:

Here's one answer people won't like: because, if a person is already paying for their own insurance, they won't need their new employer to pay for it. Therefore, it would be in the best interests of employers to check on this beforehand...and only give full consideration to candidates who won't need to be covered by the company.

This thing keeps getting worse and worse...and most of the "nitty-gritty" (such as the cost of such mandatory insurance, the percentage of income at which insurance costs would be capped, and what mechanism would be in place to enforce the "individual mandate") is being left deliberately vague, so we won't find out what the bill is until we've already placed our non-refundable order. :eyes:

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. It's the prescription bill part deux.

"Yes it is flawed, but better a flawed plan than none at all."

The insurance industry would make a killing and there would still be no controls on the spiraling costs.

[merh]

3. Screw that!

you have to have money to be able to afford insurance and you have to have insurance to be able to get a job to make the money to afford your insurance.

What a moronic suggestion.

God save us from these idiots.

[PatSeg]

13. So you keep the poor impoverished forever and

divide the classes even more. Brilliant idea, if you want to live in a fascist state.

[merh]

20. well of course, what else would you expect from people

who have great insurance and get to vote themselves raises all of the time.

the concept was they served us, the citizens, they are now perverting the system so that we will always be serving them.

[ProudDad]

32. What else could one expect from a rich-bitch,,,

who gets more health insurance corporation money than anyone else!!!!

Fuck her and the fucking hobby horse she came in on...

HOW THE FUCK AM I SUPPOSED TO BUY HEALTH INSURANCE ON 14 FUCKING THOUSAND DOLLARS A FUCKING YEAR????

STUPID BITCH...It's too much to get Medicaid and not enough to buy ANY conceivable "health insurance" policy.

And then CRIMINALIZE MY FUCKING ASS IF I CAN'T AFFORD IT???

And keeping the employers in the equation...bad for small employers, bad for big employers and bad for us...GREAT for the for-profit leeches of the health insurance mafia and big pharma... hillaryCare is a BIG payday for them... 110 Billion bonus the first year...

Way to go, hill...

Health care is a FUCKING RIGHT in the industrialized world (except here, where it's a chain to bind you to your fucking job!!!)... In the CIVILIZED world, EVERYONE is in the same pool and support one another. The lucky ones who don't need health care help out the unlucky ones who do.

WHAT THE FUCK IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT. WHY THE FUCK IS THAT A HARD SELL... Hell, the 2nd highest grossing documentary of ALL TIME makes that point. Imagine if these fucked up politicians like hillary and obama and edwards had picked up on Universal Single-Payer in the wake of SiCKO? It would be a fucking slam dunk.

But, no, except for Edwards (and what's his problem?) the rest are in hock to their corporate capitalist masters -- they don't give a FUCK about the People...


Anyway, she stole the outline of the fucking "plan" from Edwards, made it WORSE and expects us to eat this SHIT with a spoon...

Fuck er.

I'm going to work like hell to deny her the nomination.

If she's nominated I'll WORK LIKE HELL TO DEFEAT HER!!!!

[CTyankee]

75. Will you work to defeat her here on DU?

Just wondering.

BTW, also wondering who you would vote for if HC is our Dem candidate?

[ProudDad]

131. None of the Above... (n/t)

[DrunkenMaster]

92. so let me get this straight...

according to you, we can avoid fascism by forcing people to show proof of insurance before they get hired for a job? Are you for real? Do you even read what you write?

[roguevalley]

97. there's a move in alaska to make people get insurance. how the

bloody hell do you get it when you ain't working? God, I loathe out of touch people. This woman is just TAUNTING me not to vote for her. How damned many ways can she be an ass?

[redqueen]

98. "This woman is just TAUNTING me not to vote for her. "

Seems like it, huh?

But no, ask the people being polled... she's campaigning BRILLIANTLY! :eyes:

[ericgtr]

89. Amen to that!

Just like the child support system in my state, if you are in the arrears they take away your drivers license. I understand this is a major issue and dead beat dads need to support their children but taking away their means of transportation doesn't seem like a good way to say "go get a job".

[Why Syzygy]

4. How is that building on the

current employer-based system? Sounds like letting employers off the hook.
Tax credits are never fair and do nothing to fund when needed. I think it stinks.

[Colobo]

5. That's a weak point of her plan, and that picture is scary.

[Why Syzygy]

6. Weak part?

It sounds like the whole plan. Mandated medical coverage. And we call RWers "morans".

[Stephanie]

7. The picture is from the article as posted at Yahoo.

I did not pick out the photo.

[Colobo]

8. It's not Hillary, but the gesture.

[PatSeg]

9. What a horrible idea!!!

But the insurance companies probably will love it. I hope the MSM latches on to this one, because the majority of Americans are not going to go along with it. I am getting nightmarish visions of the future and it isn't pretty.

[silverweb]

10. Uh... NO.

That's got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever heard.

Instead, Hillary, how about you show proof of citizenship during a job interview, which carries with it the guarantee of essential health care?

How about that, huh?

[BushOut06]

15. Bingo, we have a winner!

Now that sounds like a great idea. In fact, it's so much common sense, that a politician can't grasp the concept.

[silverweb]

26. I'm betting at least one gets it!

:D

[nadinbrzezinski]

11. Oh Senator, Senator, easy

National Health Insurance, you get enrolled at birth, and have a national health car (for when you travel abroad, or if you need to prove you are a legal resident\citzen), but that health insurance ain't tied to the health care companies that are financing you

What part of single payer, gov'ment run, program is what the Murican people want are you purposely missing?

[redqueen]

99. The part where it doesn't get her any cozier with the insurance industry. n/t

[Mythsaje]

12. That looks an awful like a "stick it to the little guy" plan...

I don't like the sound of that at all.

On edit: THIS might well be her first and worst misstep. If people wake up to what this means, she's screwed.

[silverweb]

16. Obama needs to JUMP on this!

It could make all the difference in the primary.

[Colobo]

17. Hopefully he will.

[silverweb]

19. I'm betting on it.

I've already sent this to my list, too!

[regnaD kciN]

27. If they wake up before the primaries, she's screwed...

...if they wake up after the primaries, we're screwed.

So far, there's been no shortage of plaudits for her proposal from the inside-the-Beltway Chattering Class, whose standard for praise seems to be that she managed to come up with a plan so beneficial to insurance companies that they'll happily accept it. (And no shortage of "Hill's Shills" throughout the Internet to post on how everybody -- i.e. the aforementioned Chattering Class -- simply looooooves her proposal.) But I don't think the average person, once he or she gets past the soothing verbiage and finds out the specifics of the program, is going to be nuts about a proposal that essentially boils down to "you're required by law to buy your own private policy or else."

My worry is encapsulated in the quote from dKos I posted in another thread -- if the average American only finds out about the gist of this proposal after HRC is in office, the resulting reaction will likely spell the end of the Democratic Party. :-(

[Tellurian]

43. You sound like you've been dkos brainwashed..

A cursory glance at Hillary's program screams competition between Insurance providers. If they refuse to compete; their out of business. I bet you haven't even read the pdf file of her plan or listened to her videos outlining the program. You're just repeating and compounding distortions posted in dkos which are far and away from reality.

Do your own research for a change...you might learn something..

[ima_sinnic]

57. I've researched plenty, hillary supporter

and can find NO REASON to support this trojan horse and corporacrat.

but continue to live in your delusional universe, where "competition between insurance providers" is somehow supposed to be the best thing that's ever happened to the American People.

you, like all HRC supporters, obviously have some vested interest in keeping things Just The Way They
Are Now, with even more of our tax dollars going to billionaire corporate scam masters. Let me guess--you are a CEO, or some other big corporate officer? Those are the ONLY ones who will benefit if HRC gets elected--selfish, greedy, short-sighted, me-first, superficial, phony-ass people whose first and ONLY concern is "the bottom line," profits, MONEY.

FUCK HILLARY CLINTON, THE RICH WHITE MAN'S CANDIDATE.

[Mythsaje]

59. If you know you can't have a Republican

might as well go with a cheap knock-off...

[JTFrog]

62. Right..

given the choice...

[BushOut06]

14. Wonder how many Rethugs are kicking themselves for not thinking of this earlier

Hmmm...don't require employers to provide insurance. Make people get their own damned insurance! What's that? Can't afford to get insurance on your own? Well then, get a job! Oh wait, there's that damned Catch-22 again.

Screw this. If this is truly her idea, we might as well stick a fork in the '08 election. She'll get ripped to shreds over this issue alone, and it won't matter how many more Americans die in Iraq (not that she'll pull any troops out anyways).

[regnaD kciN]

29. What do you mean, "not thinking of this earlier"...???

From what I can see, most of her plan is simply borrowed wholesale from Mitt Romney's plan as governor of Massachusetts (which was sold on the basis of "sure, it's a lousy plan, but it's either this or nothing"). I understand Ahnuld is trying to push something similar through in Caleefoneeah, too.

[Imperialism Inc.]

77. Ken Blackwell ran on something like this in his bid for Governor of Ohio.

I remember thinking, "That's a health care plan? What a joke." And now Hillary has adopted the same idea. My mind is officially boggled. Ken Blackwell folks!

[Tellurian]

44. Haven't read a thing about Hillary's plan..

not able to discuss facts...next!

[illinoisprogressive]

18. what a stupid idea.

[Vickers]

21. As long as the employer shows me proof of their solvency.

Been there, done that, got the really cool fuck-over.

[ljm2002]

22. Absolutely outrageous...

...how dare she!

So the solution to the health care crisis is to burden the populace with yet more regulation and paperwork.

Oh if only they'd back up for a minute, and take a look at who really needs to be regulated and forced to behave in a prudent manner.

Damn, I hate where this country is going right now.

That such a proposal could be put forward seriously by someone who calls herself "progressive" is ludicrous.

[Mythsaje]

24. You know what's missing from this thread?

Any commentary by those from the Hillary mob.

How 'bout that?

[Stephanie]

25. curious...

[regnaD kciN]

28. Yep...

..."Hill's Shills" seem to be notably absent.

But I'm sure one of them will post yet another counter-thread of quotes from various corporate, pro-Publican, and DLC thinkers praising her proposal to the skies. :eyes:

[Tellurian]

41. As a rule, I'm usually asleep at 3:30 am...

How about you?

[ProudDad]

33. They're over here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3531122

Crowing about how much that neo-con fuck David Brooks loves hillaryCare...

[Tellurian]

45. I'm here...where are you?

[ima_sinnic]

60. I'm watching you praise the idea as making the insurance co's "competitive"

whatever ... I'm sure she could propose rounding up those who can't afford insurance and shooting them (or at least imprisoning them, since it would be "required"), and you would praise it.

[avrdream]

120. Dumb thread, not worth commenting on.

When you can truthfully say you have read the pdf with details of her plan, come back here and tell me that you don't think it is good.

Pay bloody attention: there is a choice in the menu of options for a "public" plan, similar to Medicare. Everyone can choose this plan, even the unemployed, because the plan calls for supplementation by the government so that health care is affordable to EVERYONE. I truly believe that the people who are commenting in this thread about how dumb her plan is are people who would never be able to vote for Hillary ANY DAMN WAY. That's fine and dandy, it's your choice....but why you would come to a Democratic site and say such awful things about a potential DEMOCRATIC president, is just beyond something that I can understand.

I support Hillary but would never go to an Obama or Edwards (or any of our other fine candidates) thread and spew such absolute CRAP as I am reading here.

Why not be bloody grateful that our candidates at least HAVE A PROPOSAL to improve your lives?

Yeesh.

[Mythsaje]

121. You think requiring people to bring proof of insurance

to a fucking job interview is an IMPROVEMENT?

Yeah, sure.

[avrdream]

122. Come talk to me when you've read the whole thing, mate.

You wouldn't have voted for her anyway.

Enough said.

:think:

[Mythsaje]

123. In the primaries?

Probably not.

I will STILL vote for her in the GE.

I've glanced over the plan. It isn't significantly different from either Obama's or JE's. But it's her comment about showing proof of insurance as part of a job interview that put my back up. Everyone should be insured, but the goddamn burden shouldn't be on THEM. That's bullshit.

[Maribelle]

125. If you want to bring your insurance with you , and the employer is required to offer insurance...

it could be a life saver for folks with "prior medical conditions". Your "an IMPROVEMENT" puff is merely weak bully spit.

Or do your think that people such as cancer survivors are not supposed to change jobs, hero?

[Mythsaje]

132. Having to "show proof of insurance as part of the job interview"

has a pretty screwed up ring for us anti-authoritarian types.

[jillan]

30. That is just a crazy idea.

She did say she could envision a day...

So it is not part of her plan now.

Crazy stuff.

[ProudDad]

34. Yep, she can envision the day

when it's everyone's responsibility to provide proof of "Health Insurance" in order to work.

What happens if you can't afford it, eh hillary? Go to the workhouse or the debtor's prison???

What a Dickensian, Randian, bullshit proposal...

Not surprising from the welfare queen of the health insurance mafia and big pharma... they pay her the most... They get the most from her...

[Milo_Bloom]

31. Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

But, But, But... don't most people get health insurance as part of their job benefits... and if someone is in between jobs they might not have taken the steps to get set up, but that should keep them from getting another job?!?!?!?

Wow, that's some powerful toad she's been licking!

[diane in sf]

35. Compulsory insurance purchase from large corps by people who can't afford

to buy health insurance in the first place--disgusting.

[Tellurian]

47. Find me a link and post it from Hillary's proposal.

Not this piece of garbage OP.. Do it!

[regnaD kciN]

52. The "piece of garbage OP" has a direct quote from HRC...

What part of that don't you understand? :shrug:

Oh, I get it...for you, if it doesn't show Hillary in the most positive light, even if it comes from Hillary's own statement, it's a "piece of garbage." How convenient.

[Maribelle]

126. He said "from her proposal". Tell me which part of that you don't understnad and ...

I would be so happy to translate that for you.


Why is it so difficult for you Hillary bashers to grasp this concept?

http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[Mythsaje]

133. What part of "from her own words"

do you Hillaryphiles not get?

[Stephanie]

80. The Associated Press? A piece of garbage? Um..

I assume you have heard of the AP, no?

[Forkboy]

115. You're dealing with a guy who has no problem posting from sites so bad they had to lock the threads

But he has a problem with your source. :eyes:

I wouldn't take anything he says seriously...ever.

[Maribelle]

127. And here I thought it was personal attacks like yours that shut down threads?

Nothing to add just a personal attack?

Pieces of the AP article have been dissected and misquoted so much is now stands as chopped liver, rotting in the daylight.

The poster has merely requested that you read the plan, then debate it. It's all out there for everyone to read.


http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

[Forkboy]

130. And I merely pointed out the truth about him.

There really is nothing to add.Hillary's plan, to me anyways, seems almost identical to Edward's plan, and it's funny to notice the names that were bitching about his plan suddenly loving Hillary's, and vice versa.

And on edit - I'd love to see you complain about the poster's numerous personal attacks and general arrogant attitude in every damn thread he's in.I mean,if behavior in threads is such a concern and all.Because he isn't helping your candidate a damn bit with his shtick, and that should worry you a hell of a lot more than what Forkboy says about anyone.

[Forkboy]

116. Do it?

Is that you Johnny Redmeat?

[fenriswolf]

36. yeah unfortunatly

the majority of america gets their soundbites from the corporate news and the "wee bit" more intelligent people look on the internet to see the hill shrills shreaking about what a great persona and what a great plan they have that their minds are made up before even looking at any specifics of the plan. What a great age we live in when the widest information dispersal decides how this country is run and with education hitting rock bottom people dont know how to make up their own minds for themselves and with the dollar hitting rock bottom they dont have time to figure out how to think for themselves......thats it.....i'm moving to canada.

[Tellurian]

49. Most here revere dkos...and will remain uninformed

and let dkos do their thinking for them...what...read something themselves and form an opinion...horrors!

[fenriswolf]

50. I don't make up peoples minds. I inform.

like i stated before most of america still get its news from the corporate establishements we know to be corrupt, most dont have the time/knowledge/education to"form an opinion for themselves" so they let the media do it for them, because if you can't trust the media....who can you trust. I do advocate people educating themselves. I have a saying. self education is self actualization, and if you havn't heard the tripe coming from HRC mouth then you still listen to the corporate shills.

[Tellurian]

51. Yes, I understand...you help misinform..

a little bit of honey, a hefty dose of psychobabble, a fallacious benefit just because, before you stick the knife in...sure you're a boon to humanity... Except your statement do not compute.

[regnaD kciN]

53. How predictably arrogant...

So, if anyone actually looks into matters, thinks for themselves, and comes to a different conclusion from yours, they're either "misinformed" or "helping to misinform." :eyes:

a little bit of honey, a hefty dose of psychobabble, a fallacious benefit just because, before you stick the knife in

Funny...that poetic little piece of rhetoric seems to describe the method I've witnessed in your posts to a T.

[fenriswolf]

82. ok

what im stating is that in a country where a third of the public still believes saddam had something to do with 9/11, in a country where a quarter or more of the people still believe that GB is doing a good job, in a country where the party line "they hate us for our freedoms" still exist then there are alot of uninformed people out their. I am not stating everyone is uninformed except for me and I am not stating that if you do not agree with me you are uninformed, where do you people come up with these speculations?

[ima_sinnic]

63. awww, whatsamatter, people actually got a glimmer of what she's really about

.. but it's "psychobabble" or something equally reactionary and idiotic.

but keep trying to make a case for the phony scam artist--it is quite entertaining. as soon as someone does investigate what she's about, and predictably runs away screaming, you insult them as dkos lovers, or "misinformed"--hey, how can you keep the People delusional enough to vote for the corporate ass-kisser warmonger? it's tough job, I don't envy you. but I guess it'll all be worth it for your "bottom line," eh?

[BushOut06]

72. Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in Oz?

I feel like someone is warning me to pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[fenriswolf]

81. LOL, I'm done with you

[ribrepin]

37. I think Hillary just screwed the pooch in her bid for president

Go Biden!

[JTFrog]

68. The wind may blow a different direction tomorrow.

:shrug:

Maybe one of these days it will blow her skirt up and show her true colors. Even if she rescinds this now, I'll never trust her to cover my back while she's in bed with the corporate lobbyists.

[Tellurian]

38. Looks like a RW Hit Piece to me..

When it takes 5 writers to compose an edgy, blaring, article geared to impart callous anger with the reader. I call foul! It isn't a secret the RW'ers are against an affordable Health Care policy for Americans. What better way to thwart achieving a good program than painting the creator of the program benefiting the people as overbearing and disconnected from the people who have come to know the real Hillary Clinton.

The picture set the tone for the article. Initially, I was fooled and somewhat surprised as you were. However, after reading the article in it's entirety, the paragraphs cherry picked by the OP certainty didn't give a fair portrayal of the spirit of the article. The additional negative comments made by Romney is more of the same acid laced rhetoric attempting to set an adversarial tone for the General Election. (which is fine by me. I wanna kick their asses)

So far, Hillary has proposed the best plan for us. There are questions I have that need answers. I'll start a thread in the am and see whats in the offing.

This is just the beginning...The RW will do and say anything to keep the masses enslaved to their choke hold on the government. Don't ever forget that for a moment.

[regnaD kciN]

54. What part of a DIRECT QUOTE don't you understand...???

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," she said. But she said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview — like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination."

Those passages within quotation marks are HRC's own words. Do you claim they're not? If so, show us the rebuttal from the Clinton campaign wherein they claim she was misquoted.

Or is it that you just decide that any article that reflects your chosen candidate in a less-than-perfect light, even if based on her own words, must be a "hit piece" spurred by The Biased Media? With such an approach, you could have a bright future indeed...either at the RNC or Faux News, where anything that makes their favorites appear wrong can simply be written of to "media bias." :eyes:

[Mythsaje]

58. That quote is absolutely damning...

It can't be spun.

NO ONE who's not a FUCKING Republican authoritarian asshole could stand up for that statement. It's goddamn scary.

So let me get this right. The idea is that you get a tax rebate, which you then pay to your insurance company, which then figures out how to deny you as much care as they possibly can while making certain your co-pays and deductibles are as high as they can manage?

What a GREAT idea! Let's fuck up the current system even more than it already is!

Who's the goddamn genius who dreamt THIS up? Let me guess. Rich motherfucker? Former (and future) Insurance industry lobbyist? Because that's the only person I can imagine really get aroused by THIS plan (other than some rich, arrogant, well-fed pundits who haven't lived in the real world for years, if ever).

[ima_sinnic]

66. oh boo hoo, the RW is sooo mean the way "they" QUOTE HRC!!!

poor widdle you, your trojan horse candidate has been EXPOSED AGAIN!!!

and if her "plan" is "the best for us"--???!!!--it's time to leave the fucking country!

[Forkboy]

117. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[Faryn Balyncd]

39. Compulsory insurance (Hillary-Care, Romney-care) is NOT National Health Insurance......

[Tellurian]

42. Where does it say..

Romney wants Universal Health Care for the entire country? Republicans have and will always be against it.
Know your enemy. Cluephone, it's not the Democrats!

[Faryn Balyncd]

46. Mandatory insurance from predatory insurance corporations = FASCIST medicine (not socialized........

.....medicine.

As much as the right wing reflexively mislabels Hillary's mandatory insurance plan "socialized medicine", the simple facts are that it is an insurance lobbyist's wet dream.

Rather than utilizing the immense amount of resources now diverted to insurance companies (who earn their keep by denying coverage to the sickest patients), this plan MANDATES that Americans buy insurance & perpetuate a corrupt & predatory insurance industry.

Calling such a plan "socialized medicine", or even a "national healthcare plan", is a joke.

[Tellurian]

48. Competition in the workplace drive costs down..

If they choose not to compete...they're out..

[regnaD kciN]

55. Oh, sure...

And "competition" among private health insurers over the past few years has done so much to drive costs down... :rofl:

[Mythsaje]

61. Same line of bullshit, different presentation...

"Free market forces." Yeah, those mythical things that are supposed to raise all boats, right? Don't work very well when they're in collusion. It should tell us something very important that the Insurance Industry has LOBBYISTS. They don't work for specific companies, do they? They work for the Industry...represent the industry's interests. In what universe does that encourage competition? Regulating them...now THAT might encourage competition.

Gotta love those conservatives...breathing methane and loving it.

[ima_sinnic]

67. what you said ...

I'd also rofl, but it's just too tragic and scary ...

[Oldenuff]

76. No offense intended

It's great that you are so loyal to your candidate,but it appears to me that there are some folks that would have to be hit by a freight train before they realized that they have been sold a bill of goods.

We can only hope that this makes the news....This issue, plus her support for the Patriot Act should get her run out of town on a rail,if there were any justice in the world.

[ima_sinnic]

56. F**K YOU HILLARY! sheesh, slink away already!

I am so sick of this fucking woman I could puke.
oh, dumb@$$ hillary supporters, rein your gal in. she is going to drive the entire country into personal
bankruptcy while the insurance companies laugh all the way to the bank (she will pocket hers, too).

luckily (??!!) I WORK FOR MYSELF (which means, I guess, that I will NEVER get any medical care, because I refuse to buy into the insurance-scam system), but my heart goes out to the millions who would need to somehow scratch up the dough to get insurance simply to apply for a job! WHAT A DUMB FUCKING IDEA! WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EMPLOYER PROVIDING HEALTH CARE? I guess hillary cares more about the bosses than she does the lowly workers!

Hopefully this will finally wake the People up to what a fucking trojan horse and blatant scam this treacherous "Democrat" and corporacrat war monger really is, which I've been saying for months, years.

right now I'm so pissed off that if I say any more, it will get me banned. :grr: :grr: :nuke:

[Apollo11]

65. Wait -- I have an even better idea

All the uninsured people should have to wear some kind of a sign so we know who they are.

Something like a yellow star they would have to pin on the front of their clothes.

Then employers would know not to give them a job.

And waiters would know not to serve them in restaurants.

And we would all know not to sit next to them on the bus.

:sarcasm:

[JTFrog]

69. Maybe something like this?

*edit - actually on second thought, anyone who votes for this crap ought to be made to wear this one.

[MadHound]

70. This is utterly insane. Combine mandatory health insurance

With the tax giveaway to the health insurance industry, and people shouldn't really wonder why many of us refer think of Hillary as simply another corporate whore. All this plan is is another corporate friendly piece of legislation that is designed to take money from the people and give it to the corporations.

Hmm, how much is she getting from the health insurance industry?

[Lugnut]

71. Not well with me.

I've already eliminated her from my list of potential choices in the primaries but this solidifies my decision.

[truebrit71]

73. Um, fuck THAT Sen. Clinton...and say goodbye to your election chances...

...the GOP will just LOVE that idea for a commercial...

[Carrieyazel]

106. Yes, I'm so happy she made this stupid blunder. Not an understandable, minor faux pas, but

a really IDIOITIC THING TO SAY.

Hillaryland must be sweating bullets now. Thankfully. This foolery from Hillary really brightened a lot of people's day. Now will the MSM widely report this.

What an AWFUL candidate she is.

[Nothing Without Hope]

74. Wholly owned and operated by the corporations - that's Hillary.

How long before the enough voters finally realize it?

K & R

[gorekerrydreamticket]

78. A finely buffed and polished TURD!

n/m

[SaveElmer]

79. Only way to feasibly reduce costs....

Everyone has to be in the system, whether continuing their private coverage, or taking advantage of FEHBP or the new government run plan...

This is not a proposal in a vacum...Hillary's program contains an enforceble provision that would cap an individuals costs as a percentage of income, would guarantee insurance for those with preexisting conditions, premiums could not be raised on account of illness, different standards could not be applied to different classes of people, and all plans are portable...

In order for this to work, everyone has to be in the system to reduce costs and take advantage of economies of scale...in addition to the other cost savings measures she has proposed

[Stephanie]

83. No, the way to reduce costs is to cut out the profit motive.

Insurance companies are in the business of making money for the insurance companies, and Mrs. Clinton is determined to help them.

[SaveElmer]

84. Show me the strategy you propose...

To convince Congress to eliminate the health insurance industry over the next 4 years...

[fenriswolf]

91. then why?

then why does everyone have to be included huh? I mean if it is such a great plan then everyone should want to be included but to make it mandatory? to make it illegal to not have insurance? the verbage that she uses and the fact that your giving talking points but no data (50%) is a percentage of my income. and for the love of all that is sacred why do we still need insurance companies still in the mix?

[SaveElmer]

95. First...I find it interesting Edwards is not being attacked for the same requirement...

And second, you are partially correct...I don't think people are going to be upset that they have to get insurance...certainly most people want insurance they just can't afford it...exactly what this plan addresses....

Lastly, I here this refrain from everyone about the health insurance industry, how we just need to eliminate them from the equation...like all we have to do is wave a magic wand and they disappear...

I would like you to give me your exact political strategy for convincing Congress to eliminate the entire health insurance industry in the United States over the next 4 years...

The way to go is either make them shift their focus to the benefit of the insured or die. By forcing them to compete with public alternatives, this plan does exactly that. Either they change their ways or they lose...

[Solon]

96. How the hell will that work under Hillary's plan?

First things first, this plan PRESERVES the limited risk pools of private insurance companies, hundreds of them, which means that they CAN'T spread the cost any wider than they have right now. This means there are hundreds of duplicate bureaucracies to deal with the millions covered by private insurance. Add in the NEW federal public plan/agency, which apparently doesn't have a staff, as Hillary claims, therefore probably has limited utility. And finally Medicaid, which is a state program(again a LIMITED pool) of 50 duplicate bureaucracies that are subsidized by the federal government.

I don't see a cost savings here, on the insurance company side that is, they still have the paperwork and crap to deal with, add in price caps and they may just get out of the business entirely, or find other ways to stay in(screw the patients). I don't see how Hillary's plan takes advantage of "economies of scale".

[shimmergal]

119. Well, maybe price caps should be mandatory

and aimed at forcing them to get out of the health insurance business entirely. If they keep losing money at it, and CAN'T make it up by screwing the patients, they'll stop "providing" it.

[Solon]

129. First let me say that there is a fatal flaw in all the top tier candidates' plans...

I'll use Hillary's since it is the most recent proposal. let's say, similar to Edward's plan, its geared towards a "transition" to some type of publicly financed health care system. That's the assumption, the question is how cost effective that publicly financed system would be. Taking Hillary's plan, let's say the insurance industry folds, so everybody outside of the wealthy would have to "fall back" to some type of public system. Well, that's the flaw, under Hillary's system, you have not one, not two, but 4 different health care financing system that you would have to use to afford health care. 3 of these already exist, SCHIP, Medicaid, and Medicare, then there's the fourth one that you "buy" into as an extra, extra "cheap" insurance system that's financed Gods know how, because there are no details yet.

In a single person's lifetime, they will most likely use all four systems, the question is how cost effective it is to keep them separate and how adequate the coverage is. The problem is that insurance, as a general rule, saves money by increasing the "buy in" rate, the amount of people who share the risk pool. This greatly offsets the costs of expensive procedures because they are partially paid for by people who don't need them at the time, so they are financed for those who do need them. The problem, of course, is that in the insurance industry, as a private industry, there is very little they can do except try to attract new insurers to save on costs. There is very little competition, because the risk pools are quite small.

This is the opposite of a free market, in a free market, with more competitors, USUALLY you get cheaper and better service, but in the insurance industry, the opposite happens, you have more competitors, that decreases the size of all insurance company risk pools, and RAISES the costs. In the health insurance industry, the most effective way to reduce costs is to have a monopoly. It sounds odd, but its true, a monopoly, with no competitors, would have the largest risk pool, and the lowest individual cost for insurers and patients. This also reduces the billing costs for doctors and hospitals because they only have to deal with ONE insurer, rather than hundreds.

The problem, of course, is that such a Monopoly, if in PRIVATE hands, can lead to abuse of its position. They can price gouge, etc. with impunity. So the Government would have to step in, the question is how. One idea is through regulation, maybe requiring the monopoly to be a non-profit, with price caps and cost controls regulated through an agency of government. Of course, the problem there is that this Monopoly can't cover everyone, the unemployed and poor may not be able to afford even the most modest of premiums, co-pays and deducts. So the Government can either require the monopoly to cover these people, or can itself provide financing for these people.

Of course, with these rules and regulations, even if governing over only ONE incorporated entity outside of government, can lead to inefficiencies. The overhead cost would be greater, generally because, even as a non-profit, the non-profit can't run at a loss, nor would they have other sources of revenue when needed. Such a system would have to be at least partially supported through taxpayer's dollars, and if its a separate system from, for example, Medicare, then people may wonder why it isn't, itself, just a part of Medicare.

The most cost effective system available would be quite similar to the one I just laid out above, however, with one difference, it would be run directly by the government, rather than as a separate entity. This is the simplest and most efficient way to finance medical care.

The question isn't about which plan is the most political feasible to pass Congress and get signed into law. That's important, but only insofar that it passes. The question is what happens afterwards, what would be the ACTUAL, rather than estimated costs of such a system. Real world examples help. My problem is, with all 3 top tier candidate's plans, that the public part of it is far too vague, and/or inadequate in what it would cover, and the fact that they partially subsidize an industry that is, by its very nature, to inefficient to survive. It sounds like these proposals are mostly a waste of taxpayer's money.

[jsamuel]

85. I remember some Clinton supporters going after John Edwards for

saying he wanted to mandate yearly checkups. This pales in comparison to that.

[SaveElmer]

86. Edwards mandates individuals buy insurance as well...

Did you check his plan?

[jsamuel]

87. Yes he does.

[Cameron27]

109. So how is his any better than HRC's

if he's mandating coverage and doctor's visits & monitoring? What's the difference in their plans?

[fenriswolf]

100. HRC health care

as soon as the politicians can say everyone has health care it will not be an issue anymore and only "fringe" candidates will bring it up, I "attack" hillary because she is the front runner and yes it is because I personally don't like her for both her stances politically and socially and belive that she is a wolf in sheeps clothing, my opinions are based on both what i have witnissed and what i fear. call me a tinfoil hat wearer but karl rove while being total scum is fairly intelligent, he knows people hate him and the best thing he could have done for hillary is publicly say he doesnt like her, she has taken tons of lobbiest money, she has voted to fund the war, she is using religion like a tool that the repubs do, i just plain don't like her. oh and her health care plan sucks, and yes i think edwards and obama's do to

[robinlynne]

88. great. so if you don't have insurance because you don't have a job, you can't get a job.

[Maribelle]

90. Great HACK JOB there on what Hillary said.

What Hillary really said:

"At this point, we don't have anything punitive that we have proposed," the presidential candidate said in an interview with The Associated Press. "We're providing incentives and tax credits which we think will be very attractive to the vast majority of Americans."

She said she could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview -- like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination," but said such details would be worked out through negotiations with Congress.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200709180016?f=i_latest

[DrunkenMaster]

93. how is that any better, exactly?

It still reeks of shite to me.

[redqueen]

101. ahahahahah... no shit!

:crazy:

[Maribelle]

102. Sometimes we need to clean our noses.

There are two areas addressed in the pull quote I posted.

Punitive - - - not in Hillary's plan. This means it is not mandatory.

Proof to employer - - not in Hillary's plan. This has direct bearing on the portability aspect, where you change jobs, or where you become unemployed and perhaps employed again, if portability is to be favorable to the employee and the employee wants to keep what they had before.

And portability would require massive changes to the way insurance companies underwrite group plans.

[ima_sinnic]

103. right. I always like having to parse a candidate's words to figure out

"exactly" what she's talking about.
If "proof to employer" is "not in Hillary's plan" (yet), why the hell is she even mentioning such a dumbass, pitiful idea?
"proof to employer" IS in Hillary's plan (as she herself states so clearly) and she has now made the mistake (THANK GOD!) of mentioning it.

what in HELL do you see in this sell-out payola-receiving candidate, anyway? is she THAT sacred to you, that even in the face of this blatant corporate giveaway at the expense of every ordinary American, you STILL can't give her up? sheesh. she is the WORST of about 8 otherwise excellent candidates! (but don't let me or anybody else try to convince you otherwise. I guess it must suck to have to continually defend her corporate whoredom to everybody)

[Maribelle]

108. It seems you like to twist not parse.

If you hate Hillary so much, they why on earth are you even trying to discuss her plan?

[ima_sinnic]

111. she can envision a day when "you have to show proof" to get a job

YOU'RE the one "parsing" it to try to make that pig's ear into a silk purse.
There's really nothing to "twist" and nothing to parse--she said it clearly and plainly: basically, she thinks it would be a great idea for you, me, and every other American who wants a job to show proof of insurance. There's nothing about "portability"--that's just your crazy-@$$ and convoluted way of trying to defend the indefensible.

And I'm not trying to discuss her so-called plan (which is not a "plan" so much as a conspiracy)--I just want to make sure that as many people as possible know exactly who this woman is working for. It ain't me, babe, and it ain't you--unless you're some fat-@$$ greedhead CEO or other corporate pig snuffling around the ole government (i.e., TAXPAYERS) handout trough.

[Maribelle]

124. Why on earth are you lying? She did not even say "to get a job"

And the sentence you all are hoisting yourselves on isn't even in her plan.

More importantly, if you already have insurance, if you want to keep that particular plan when you go to get a job, or if you are concerned as many thousands of people in this country are concerned over things such as "prior existing conditions" you simply need to show proof to your next employer and remain in you existing plan on your next job. But that's not in her plan.

Congress could pass the "portability" aspect and create say an approval database, or issue an ID exactly like our Social Security Cards which we currently are madated to show empoyers, or perhaps some other currently undesigned concept.


http://www.hillaryclinton.com/feature/healthcareplan/americanhealthchoicesplan.pdf

Her plan called "The American Health Choices Plan" clearly talks about portability on Page 6. preserves existing health insurance and offers new choices to those with insurance and to the 47 million people in the United States without insurance. It ensures portability so that Americans do not lose coverage when they change or lose their jobs.

[Why Syzygy]

135. Kids don't get into school without

vaccine records or by meeting a medical or religious exception.

I think you're dreaming. She said what she said.

[Why Syzygy]

134. That looks identical. Where's the hack? n/t

[high density]

94. Yeah like there aren't enough hoops to go through when getting a new job

Show your passport or other proof of citizenship
Give your piss in a cup
Give your criminal background
Give your credit report
Sign away your jury rights against the company
Sign non-compete agreement
Sign away everything else

[Carrieyazel]

104. Another lame Hillary gaffe, she must be getting early front-runner "foot in mouth"

I mean, she must be losing her focus during this long-haul. Showing proof of insurance when you interview??? This needs to disseminated so we can see how it flops.
She seems to be deviating from the rigid Hillaryland script. When she goes out on her own it really shows.......badly!!!!!!!!

[AzDar]

105. No more Clintons! No more Bushes!!!

:patriot:

[Macchendra]

107. Single Payer

If I'm not mistaken, Obama's and Edwards are similar.

[Lucinda]

110. Folks this has to do with herstatement that workers change jobs a lot these days

and that their health care should travel with them.

Pretty simple.

[ima_sinnic]

113. oh BS. she said "have to show proof to your employer that you're insured

as a part of the job interview." That doesn't even IMPLY health care "traveling" with someone. If she were talking about health care "traveling" with someone, why would it be REQUIRED to get a job, "like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination"?

spin spin spin -- HRC and her devoted followers are like whirling dervishes with this crap.

a vote for HRC is a vote for obscene profits for insurance CEOs! simple as that.

[Lucinda]

114. Actually I'm leaning Edwards

And what I said stands...

I've actually been listening to her interviews and not jumping on the bashing bandwagon.

Have you read the pdf?

[Maribelle]

128. Employers will be required to offer insurance or contribute to a pool.

If you wish to bring your existing insurance plan with you, instead of taking the new employers plan, it's a choice you can make by showing proof that you already have a plan you want to keep.

This is all about choice.

Nowhere does it say this will be mandated. And nowhere does it say this "proof" is in Hillary plan. That's why she used the term "envision", because her plan clearly talks about portability being a choice.

Hillary bashers truly need to grow a brain.

[Moochy]

112. sounds way more efficient than single payer...(sarcasm)

Single payer does not compute???

(She) "could envision a day when "you have to show proof to your employer that you're insured as a part of the job interview — like when your kid goes to school and has to show proof of vaccination."

Why not just take your kid to the free clinic and get her a shot? or have a government clinic for immunizations set up at the school? Here's an idea, fully fund school budgets so that they can staff nurses...

This plan seems influenced by the failures of trying to get healthcare reform passed the first time.

[Steve_in_California]

118. Narrow-mindedness as usual.

35 million Americans are self-employed. Should they fire themselves to make Hillary happy?

[Why Syzygy]

136. "On the streets"

they are saying, she didn't make any progress in the eight years she had direct access to the White House, why should we think now would be any different. That's what I was told by someone with their ear to the right wingers.

After reading the entire thread, it occurs to me that she doesn't plan to come up with anything that has a hair of a chance of being approved and implemented. That's why she is going for the far out. If the other candidates are too, then they are in the same boat.

They don't WANT us to have decent health care, so they don't have to come up with any decent ideas.
Exactly like they don't want to end the war. Voting yes to everything Bush puts on the table and limping along on anything remotely like a peace solution looks like bogus to me.
Pitiful.

[calteacherguy]

137. That's a good idea, presuming a system is in place where all can afford health insurance. nt

[silverojo]

138. Another "health care plan" that will fail miserably

And the insurance companies will keep on profiting.

Great idea, Hillary. :sarcasm:

[Mother Of Four]

139. I've been a lurker for a very long time, years

I've finally been moved to post, instead of read and digest.

This new "Health care plan" hits very close to home for me. My husband, served our nation for 22 years and is now a civvie police officer where we live.

When he first started working there almost four years ago, we wanted to get health insurance through them to supplement the changes made to tricare.

For our family, it would have cost us 680 dollars a month. If it weren't for Tricare, we would have no insurance at all.

For the record, my husband and I vote where we feel the person would do the best job...not by political affiliation. The republicans are scaring this mother of four children heavily this year, and my eldest son turns 17 in just a few weeks. I've turned to the Democrats for hope this year.

I've read alot of what these forums have had to say over the years, and have taken alot into my home with me. We as a family have used many posts I've read here as talking points.

Night before last, I had a couple over for dinner. When we went to the living room after, the health care plan came up. The gentleman stated and I quote "Having no insurance would still be better under this plan, for the simple fact that hospitals can't deny you care in an emergency situation."

That resounded with me. You see, I'm an EMT intermediate. I know for a fact that I cannot deny care if the person doesn't have insurance, I just had never really thought about it when debating these "plans". There will be many people who will choose to play roulette with legalities and health rather than be forced to pay for insurance they can't afford. Even help from government won't pay for it completely, this is money many Americans simply do not have.

(sighs)

I felt like I had to say something. I'm tired. Tired of all the plays on words, tired of all the one upmanship, tired of never knowing what they (politicians) are really saying.

I'm tired of feeling like any choice I make is no choice at all.

Believe it or not, there are more of me out there than people realize. We believe fully and deeply in democracy, where all have a voice and a choice. Where we as people have the power to make a change, if given the chance.

This plan is horrifying, yes...I've read over it. No, I'm not going to dissect it to bits to try and validate why I feel it's so terrible. To put it in perspective - You have a field of flowers behind your house. It looks fantastic from your window so you decide to take a walk in it. In the center of it, you find a huge wasps nest with very aggressive wasps. No matter how much you want to enjoy that field, and how beautiful the general idea of it is...

You will still get the crap stung out of you if you walk in it.

The idea of a national health care system is wonderful, but her "Plan" is full of wasps.

Hopefully myself, as a new poster and longtime lurker with no real affiliation, will be welcome here.