Would you support Thomas Jefferson as president today?

[MetalCanuck]

. The Presidency of Thomas Jefferson

    A. Jefferson's Beliefs

        1. He favored states rights over a strong central
government. He supported the idea that states could nullify
federal laws (nullification).

        2. He was a strict constructionist - he favored a
literal interpretation of the Constitution.

        3. He wanted a smaller government with very little
intervention in daily life.

        4. He opposed tariffs.

        5. He saw the country as a "nation of
farmers." A simple land with simple, peaceful needs.

    B. Jefferson's Domestic Changes

        1. Tried to cut down costs of government wherever
possible

        2. Reduced the size of the army

        3. Halted expansion of the navy

        4. Lowered expenses for government social functions

        5. Wanted to simplify the government's financial
affairs and to tear down Hamilton's financial program

    C. Jefferson's Foreign Policy

        1. Wanted to follow Washington's foreign policy of
neutrality.
____________________________

He doesn't sound like a Dem thats for sure. I would support
him, would you? 
   

[Thothmes]

1. No. He owned Slaves

[MetalCanuck]

8. Owning slaves was wrong BUT common for the time...

People really didn't think about it. It was absolutely normal
at the time so you would have to blame many white people for
owning slaves.

[Bucky]

21. Gee, that's an original argument

I'm sure some future liberals will attack all of us as hypocrites for owning gas-powered automobiles.

[annabanana]

2. His mind was agile enough to have made the necessary adjustments

in policy. So I will go out on a limb and say, Yes. The man would be up to the times.

[unpossibles]

4. I agree

We cannot look at his policies through the lens of today, but in the context of his time. Of course I disagree with him on several issues. Then again, find me a modern politician I agree with on everything, and I will show you someone who is no more electable than I am.

[meegbear]

3. The age factor would be an issue for me ...

being born April 13, 1743, that would make him like 264 years old.

[lateo]

5. LOL

Very funny.

[jefferson_dem]

6. While breathing isn't formally listed as a qualification to serve as president...

I assume it's an implied baseline.

[Totally Committed]

7. Probably not. His owning slaves, alone, would have made him a no-go for me.

But I do agree with what he wrote here:

"I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country." - Thomas Jefferson (1816)

That is a sentiment I can get behind even today... maybe especially today.

TC

[MetalCanuck]

10. Owning slaves was common then though.

Like I mentioned before (no insult to black people) but it was
as common as owning pets. Doesn't make it right by todays
standards but that is todays standards. 

He sounds exactly like Ron Paul who patterns himself after
him. I am not Schilling for Ron but what I am saying is that
you guys would support Jefferson but not another politician
with the same views.

[Totally Committed]

16. Doesn't mean it was right.

Still would have made him a no-go for me.

TC

[Bucky]

22. But it does show your comments are egregiously off topic

The OP was asking about Jefferson's political philosophy. Perhaps that's too complex a topic to tackle here.

[Totally Committed]

27. ('egregiously') Off-Topic?

I quoted him about part of his political philosophy, but then said his being a slave-owner would preclude giving him my support, no matter how much I liked what he had to say about corporatism.

But, if that so ('egregiously') OT, please use your superior intellect to work around my post. You can do it. I know you can!

TC

[LeftishBrit]

34. I am reminded here of someone's flippant comment about Maggie Thatcher:

"Like Disraeli, she dragged her party into the 19th century."

Like Jefferson, Paul would drag his country into the 19th century.

[DuaneBidoux]

9. Everything must be seen in context. He was still revolutionary for his age.

I wouldn't vote for him today if he had those views, obviously, but I seriously doubt if he would hold any of those views today. He has always seemed open minded to me (whatever I've read), in the sense that he is a rationalist instead of an ideologue.

[MetalCanuck]

12. He would not have kept the slaves I am sure but the other views yes.

He was a Republican of old...not a Neocon of today. They
called it Classic Liberalism (Something like that) I believe
in what Jefferson believed. GOVERNMENT out of you're social
life but out of you're pocket too.

[DuaneBidoux]

17. I do not think that is knowable for sure. People do change and intelligent ones especially.

[Bucky]

26. Jefferson's views became increasingly rigid and conservative as he got older.

If he was alive today, aged 260 something, I'm sure he'd be a member of Fred Phelps's nutty cult. I'm positive about that.

Heh. Probably he'd be a Ron Paul Republican, actually.

[reality based]

11. "We hold these truths to be self evident

"that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

These are the words that immortalized Thomas Jefferson, even though in practice he did not always live up to them. Most of the items you cite are not the eternal truths that inspire my admiration for him today.

[FormerDittoHead]

13. He DID believe in free college - I do like that, otherwise most of the rest is freeperville.

The rest of this looks like a lot like an email from a freeper.

Actually, there's NOT a lot here that I agree with:

>1. He favored states rights over a strong central government. He supported the idea that states could nullify federal laws (nullification).

I'm against this. States rights has been an excuse for slavery, as well as responsible for the horrid public education in the Southern states. There are many, many issues which each of the States can not control - air pollution, FCC, for example. Everywhere I see "states rights" I see a place I don't want to live and the poor and unlucky suffer.

>2. He was a strict constructionist - he favored a literal interpretation of the Constitution.

I don't care for this at all. Sounds religious to me. A "literal" interpretation is, paradoxically, open to interpretation, and it offloads the responsibility from making sound, logical arguments.

>3. He wanted a smaller government with very little intervention in daily life.

I don't know WHAT THE FUCK "intervention in daily life" is suppose to mean except for the freeper credo: lower taxes.

>4. He opposed tariffs.

Well, I, like most of the other framers, support tariffs - I'd like to see more of them.

>5. He saw the country as a "nation of farmers." A simple land with simple, peaceful needs.

This is a great vision if you're a wealthy farmer, I suppose.

B. Jefferson's Domestic Changes

>1. Tried to cut down costs of government wherever possible

Lowering taxes, hmm.. I see a theme forming here... I don't want government cut. I want it to be EFFICIENT.

>2. Reduced the size of the army

Well, I'm all for that. 1 out of 10 ain't bad.

>3. Halted expansion of the navy

Ibid. Wonder what he would say about the air force?

>4. Lowered expenses for government social functions

You mean like education and healthcare? Completely disagree there... I know he created a totally free university, however. Wonder how many agreeing with the rest of this would think THAT'S a good idea?

>5. Wanted to simplify the government's financial affairs and to tear down Hamilton's financial program

Ahhh - that magic freeper words - simplify and financial all in the same sentence. Ding! Ding. I know - FairTax!

C. Jefferson's Foreign Policy

>1. Wanted to follow Washington's foreign policy of neutrality.

When a little bit of our help can help stop genocide? No. I like what we did in World War II... I think the idea is to do the right thing at the right time, rather than live by some ideology...

[A HERETIC I AM]

14. These days, Thomas Jefferson couldn't be elected to school board.

(Since "Dogcatcher" is not an elected position)

If he were alive today and ANY of his comments regarding religion and Christianity were made public, he would be completely unelectable.

Says a lot about this country, doesn't it?

[MetalCanuck]

15. Yes he was for Separation of Church and state.

He was Libertarian. The ones people demonize today. 

[wyldwolf]

18. Many on DU would not support Jefferson, Roosevelt, Truman, Kennedy, etc.

None would have been pure enough.

[renie408]

19. Ain't that the truth. n/t

[DangerDave921]

32. I have to echo that

JFK was on record as supporting religion, lowering taxes, and increased funding for the military.

40 or 50 years can change a lot.

None of the old-school Dems would even recognize some of the social issues that DU mosly supports. I have relatives even now who are life-long Dems, but who oppose gay marriage, want more border enforcement, and like the death penalty. But if you believe some of the folks on here, these aren't "real" dems. Well they vote like everyone else, so they should be considered.

[onenote]

20. that would depend on what Thomas Jefferson believed today

Assuming that the specific positions taken by Jefferson in the 18th Century would still be the positions he would take today, in a world that he would not begin to recognize, in a worlds with over 200 years of history which did not inform his previous positions is, in a word, STUPID.

[goodgd_yall]

28. Yes---this is the problem with this question posed by in the OP

He seemed to be a radical thinker for his time, but that doesn't translate as such if he were to hold the very same views mentioned in today's world.

[Bucky]

23. It probably helps to understand that he took those stands in the context of his time.

Once upon a time states allowing workers to join unions for collective bargaining rights was so progressive it was radical. Today we call that legal standard "right to work" laws and it's considered anti-worker.

Times change, cultures and their problems evolve. Pretending they don't isn't a very useful thought experiment.

[riona]

31. How true

n/t

[AnotherGreenWorld]

24. I'm surprised you're still here MetalCanuck.

I'd be very interested to know where Jefferson says he's a 'strict constructionist.'

Jefferson was an intellectual. If he were alive today, his views would likely be radically different from the views he held even at the end of his life in 1826. Just to give an obvious example: given the reality of today, he probably wouldn't want the nation to rely on an agrarian economy.

[goodgd_yall]

25. No

He sounds like an old southern Democrat regarding states rights.

Also the OP says he favored a literal interpretation of the Constitution. Would he be able to change with the times. Cultural changes require a fluid interpretation of the Constitution, while at the same time maintaining its basic principles.

Also he favored small government with little interference in daily life. So he would not approve of social programs funded by the central government's taxing powers.

[onenote]

29. So tell us what your positions on those things would've been 200 years ago

and tell us how you know.

[RestoreGore]

30. How can we know?

His views and political philosophy were born of the times he lived in. However, there is no denying he was a brilliant statesman, writer, scientist, and thinker who did more out of politics than in it. Which is probably why he didn't want to be remembered for being president, and knowing that I can surmise he more than likely would want no part of this process as it is today to begin with.

[LeftishBrit]

33. Not unless he'd moved with the times...

which being an intelligent person he no doubt would have.

An 1807 leader wouldn't deal very appropriately with a 2007 world

Disclaimer: I don't even know if everything here is a strictly accurate description of Jefferson's views is accurate; and I am sure he changed some of them through a long life. But here goes:

1. 'He favored states rights over a strong central government. He supported the idea that states could nullify federal laws (nullification).'

I can't imagine how this would work now. Maybe with 13 states; not with 50. And as I understand it didn't work terribly well by the 1860s!

2. He was a strict constructionist - he favored a literal interpretation of the Constitution.

I'm not terribly in favour of literal interpretation of old documents as the SOLE basis for a modern society. I don't think that a literal interpretation of the constitution will tell you much about traffic laws or dealing with the Internet. Moroever, the original version of the constitution allowed for slavery; and it didn't do all that much for the female 50% of the population.

3. He wanted a smaller government with very little intervention in daily life.

That sounds reasonable in terms of not policing people's sex lives, eavesdropping on their conversations, or demanding compulsory ID. However, if it means no government intervention in providing health and education for its citizens and combatting poverty, it is no basis for a just and fair modern society.

5. He saw the country as a "nation of farmers." A simple land with simple, peaceful needs.

It may have been a nation of farmers 200 years ago. It certainly isn't predominantly one now. The existence of cities and industry and modern issues like information technology must be taken into account.



1. Tried to cut down costs of government wherever possible

While overspending through incompetence or corruption is a bad thing, I would definitely place the provision of safety nets for the people, the prevention of severe poverty, and the provision of public services way ahead of cost-cutting. Indeed, that's one main reason I'm on the left and dislike people like Thatcher and Reagan.

2. Reduced the size of the army

I think that there is excessive spending on wars and armaments. Given that the troops are currently overstretched, getting out of the war must precede cutting the size of the army.

3. Halted expansion of the navy

In general, I'm in favour of reducing the military machine; but I'd need to know the context.

4. Lowered expenses for government social functions

Do you mean the government's own social functions such as state dinners, or the provision of social services? If the former, I'm totally in favour; if the latter, I'm against it.

5. Wanted to simplify the government's financial affairs and to tear down Hamilton's financial program

I'd need to know MUCH more about the exact context.

C. Jefferson's Foreign Policy

1. Wanted to follow Washington's foreign policy of neutrality.

Not possible in this world; and would have been disastrous in WW2. But I agree that the current government has gone to dangerous extremes in terms of seeing everyone as friends or enemies.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

35. In the context of his times, yes

Healthcare wasn't an issue then. Public schools weren't much of an issue. Heck, getting hit by an insured motorist wasn't much of an issue, although I guess some folks did get kicked by horses or thrown off. :) :kick:

With the exception of slavery, states' rights wasn't such a bad thing back then. In the context of the times, I can really see both sides of that issue. Government was smaller, so your voice could be more easily heard at the state and local levels. That's a good thing. And states could nullify federal laws, but not if they went against the constitution and bill of rights.

We're just in a totally different situation, now. Our culture, domestic policy, and foreign policy are much more complex. He was a brilliant man of his times, and even though I wouldn't want my president to share his beliefs 100% today, I admire him for what he was then.