Senate approves first new idea in 4 years

[pscot]

Source: Cspan-2

The Senate just passed the Biden resolution, recommending the partition of Irag into 3 federal regions. The vote was 75 in favor, 23 opposed.

No link yet.

[bullimiami]

1. so who runs iraq then? the us senate is passing resolutions deciding

how their country will be partitioned, bushco is making sure they sell off the oil and wont let them dump blackwater. whos country is it?

[Duppers]

2. EXACTLY, bullimiani, exactly.

a democracy, my ___!

[alfredo]

4. We don't need to do anything, the Iraqis are partitioning the country

as we speak. You could say his amendment is pro ethnic cleansing, though I don't think he meant it in that way. At best his amendment is a nod toward reality.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. Wasn't Germany split in the same manner?

When they came together again, they did so because the people saw themselves as one nation. In Iraq's case, there is so much religious and tribal division that this gives everybody a safe corner to run to. What they decide to do from there, is up to them.

I'm sure that it will be an American ally who will get the corner that has the most oil.

[rocktivity]

3. Once again, I wish we had access to the DU pre-Iraq archives

Where this was predicted in no uncertain terms.

:headbang:
rocknation

[alfredo]

8. That was a no brainer. We saw what happened in Yugoslavia after Tito.

Tito
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito

Yugoslav Wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_wars


complete humiliation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugo

[Duppers]

10. I remember. nt

nt

[Theres-a]

13. Internet wayback machine

http://web.archive.org/collections/web.html

Go get 'em. This is a really interesting sight,don't go if you don't have alot of time!

[suston96]

5. Oh, goody...another partition...

And we know it works. Look back at Korea and Vietnam.

[Think82]

49. EVERYONE read this BEFORE CRITICIZING:

A few key facts about the Biden amendment:

* The legislation does not tell Iraqis what to do. It speaks only to what U.S. policy should be.
* Federalism is not a U.S. or foreign imposition on Iraq. Iraq's own constitution calls a "decentralized, federal system" and sets out the powers of the regions (extensive) and those of the central government (limited). The Constitution also says that in case of conflict between regional and national law, regional law prevails.
* Federalism is not partition. In fact, it's probably the only way to prevent partition or, even worse, the total fragmentation of Iraq.
* Federalism will not accelerate sectarian cleansing; it's the only way to stop it. Iraqis are already voting with their feet, as yesterday's article in the New York Times demonstrates. Before the surge, Iraqis were fleeing their homes at a rate of about 40,000 month; now, it's about 100,000 a month. Unless Iraqis come to some kind of agreement on sharing power peacefully, the cleansing will continue.

[jillan]

61. Bravo!

[DrDan]

6. uh . . . . Iraq is a sovereign nation, right? With elected leaders?

And our Senate voted to partition it?

What am I missing here.

[jillan]

24. see post #23

[mark414]

7. how patriarchal

:eyes:

[moondust]

9. Non-binding.

I think about all it does is let Iraq and the rest of the world know what 3/4 of the U.S. Senate believes is the path forward in Iraq and the type of policies they are willing to support.

[Orsino]

11. Well, yeah.

Sends more than one unpleasant message about Iraqi "sovereignty."

But it's non-binding, so * won't have to veto it.

[moondust]

12. The Senate

obviously does not have to support whatever policy the Iraqis decide to pursue on their own yet they remain free to do so. This informs Bush as well of the basic parameters of their cooperation.

[madrchsod]

14. i thought it was their country and their democracy

oh silly me it`s our country and our oil. as soon as we can get rid of 10 million people life in iraq will be just grand...

[allisonthegreat]

15. you know it is just soopah...

Exactly I thought they had a government. Why is the US Senate involved...It is the damn oil!

[Think82]

50. response:

A few key facts about the Biden amendment:

* The legislation does not tell Iraqis what to do. It speaks only to what U.S. policy should be.
* Federalism is not a U.S. or foreign imposition on Iraq. Iraq's own constitution calls a "decentralized, federal system" and sets out the powers of the regions (extensive) and those of the central government (limited). The Constitution also says that in case of conflict between regional and national law, regional law prevails.
* Federalism is not partition. In fact, it's probably the only way to prevent partition or, even worse, the total fragmentation of Iraq.
* Federalism will not accelerate sectarian cleansing; it's the only way to stop it. Iraqis are already voting with their feet, as yesterday's article in the New York Times demonstrates. Before the surge, Iraqis were fleeing their homes at a rate of about 40,000 month; now, it's about 100,000 a month. Unless Iraqis come to some kind of agreement on sharing power peacefully, the cleansing will continue.

[Steve_in_California]

16. The lack of information here is stifling. Somebody open a window.

Ignorance stalks these halls with a bloody hatchet. Get your facts straight before you condemn Biden's resolution. It's brilliant and enjoys overwhelming support within Iraq and throughout the world.

[Demeter]

17. Doesn't Mean It's Right--or Even Feasible

[Malikshah]

19. Window's open-- how about some information to back up that

major claim of overwhelming support w/i Iraq and throughout the world.

1) What exactly is the plan and 2) Does this "support" support the plan or some other version of partition or 3) does the "support" reference to US withdrawal and that's what has everyone is a state of mid arousal.

Blankets statements do precious little to either wipe clean the hatchet or air out the room. Rather they just add more hot air.

[jillan]

23. Biden's resolution in a nutshell:

Before Saddam Hussein, Iraq was a country that was divided along secretarian lines.
Then comes Saddam the dictator.
Then comes Bush and Cheney who think that Iraq should be a democracy.
We all know how well that is going.

Biden, who is the chairman of the Foreign relations committee, keeps going to Iraq. He sees how things are getting worse not better.
4 years ago he warned us that Iraq would never be governed by the center, the it was Saddam that was holding the country together and that all hell is going to break lose.

What his amendment does is to tell this administration - enough. We are wasting our time, money and human life trying to make Iraq a country this administration wants it to be. Instead, let Iraq go back to the way it was.
When Iraq wrote their constitution, they even put that in there.
The citizens in Iraq are fleeing the violence by the hundreds and are relocating into regions where they feel safe - in their own sects. So they are doing it anyway. The success you have heard about in Anbar province is exactly that.

It is not putting up walls.
We are not going to force the Iraqis to do this - it is their country - it is up to them.
The good thing is that the UN is going to be the ones that are going to be involved trying to help the Iraqi gov't get it done, if that is what they want. They will have to figure out how to split up the oil.

But the one part that you need to be happy about - is today the Senate told Bush that they no longer believe in his strategy

[PatSeg]

27. Nice synopsis!

As Biden says, if you have a better plan, present it. No one has and I doubt that anyone will.

[jillan]

29. With everything else that went on today - this kinda got buried

But when you think about what happened today, this is big.
They have enough votes to override a veto! This is the first piece of legislation on Iraq that told Bsh - enough.

[PatSeg]

30. It is big

I told my daughter yesterday that this was a pivotal moment. Don't want her to miss anything.

[jillan]

32. We need to get you a job at msnbc!

Political Points from Pat :)

It must be getting late!

[PatSeg]

35. PPP!!!

Watch out Tucker, here I come!!!

Yeah, it is getting late.

[murbley40]

39. Please take Tucker's job!!

[PatSeg]

56. That guy needs to find a new vocation

No matter what he's talking about, he's annoying. I can't believe he's been on TV this long.

I want to see David Shuster fill his spot!

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. And the Democrat had to come up with the idea.

[guitar man]

18. great

now if we could just figure out how to partition ourselves from the wingnuts in this country, we might all be happier....

[jillan]

25. I think you should email Biden and ask him to do that next :)

[The Backlash Cometh]

38. Good fences make good neighbors.

[PatSeg]

57. Ain't that the truth?

Everyone needs a little space and some breathing room.

[nightrider767]

20. Biden's The Man

Too bad grumpy old white guys aren't in style anymore, or Biden would be a shoe-in for president.

The guy really delivers and is right "er, I mean correct" on so many issues.

[murbley40]

45. He's actually not that grumpy.

[nightrider767]

51. I agree with that

He actually has quite a bit of charisma and plenty of experience. I hope he gets a real bump in popularity as the weeks pass. He's in an interesting position. Since he's so far behind, he needs to make some bold moves. This will put him in stark contrast with our "play it safe" front runners. He might actually be able to do it.

[PatSeg]

55. Good point

He can afford to take risks, but he's done that for a long time. He was outspoken to both the right and the left back when he was just the "new kid" in the senate. Yet somehow he managed to keep his seat for 34 years.

[jillan]

21. Biden has a reason to be proud.

75 people voted with him to tell bsh that we are no longer going to fight for a central govt in Iraq.

[murbley40]

46. Actually this is huge

[Think82]

22. This is important Biden needs to be president

just imagine all the good that could happen...

[nightrider767]

26. Too Bad The Press Treat Him Like A Mock Canidate

Why?

[PatSeg]

28. I think that will change

He's getting a lot of press over this resolution and is stealing some of the limelight (not a lot yet) from the frontrunners.

[nightrider767]

33. He scored Points Tonight Too...

[PatSeg]

34. He was still high from the morning's vote

and then Matthews showered him with praise and called him a "great man". What a nice way to go into a debate!

[Froward69]

42. AMEN Brother

he still needs our help

https://secure.ga3.org/03/joebiden/nQ7sOhb71wepo? To donate

[murbley40]

43. I contributed this morning.

If we could keep even small contributions going in to his campaign , it would really help him with media adds. Because if he had funds , he would be leading the pack for sure.

[gateley]

31. Three Things:

1. This is not a PARTITIAN. This is not 'carving up the country'. Think of it more like Canada -- different provinces, if you will, with federal oversight. No walls, no new boarders, no Checkpoint Charlie between the different regions.

2. Nobody knows for certain WHAT the outcome of this approach will be, so I'm always surprised to find so many people who profess THEY do -- with differing scenarios, no less.

3. Here is a link to a blog of young Iraqis. This expresses their desires. It will let you see first hand what their viewpoint is. They certainly are more qualified to project than we Americans are.

http://babylonians.wordpress.com/about-2/

[murbley40]

41. kick

:kick:

[murbley40]

40. It's great to be a Bidenite!

:) :toast: :toast: :bounce: :loveya: :grouphug: :grouphug: :hug:

[Byronic]

44. It ain't bad, murbley!

And it's getting better all the time.....

President Biden.

[PatSeg]

58. Settle down now

I hope you're not driving!

[murbley40]

47. This is LEADERSHIP!

[Think82]

48. SO proud to be a Biden supporter

I sense a sea change just from the activity on this board.

[PatSeg]

59. All of a sudden the MSNBC boards

are lighting up with Biden supporters or those leaning in his direction. They're coming out of the woodwork everywhere.

I think this is the beginning of something big and each person who has spoke up has contributed to it.

[Lucinda]

52. I've got to say

thats the best thread title i've seen in a long time! :rofl:
Now let me go back and see what its all about.

[PatSeg]

60. Actually that is a good title

Kinda sad though isn't it?

[Lucinda]

62. Yep. Very. n/t

[demommom]

53. kick

[jillan]

54. This is for you 'like'

[murbley40]

63. and another one!

:hi: