Personally I don't give a rat's ass if you criticize Hillary or any of the candidates here at DU

[LynneSin]

Criticism is more than welcomed whether it's about a candidate running for office or one that is currently in office.

What pisses me off and what I'll scream bullshit on each and everytime I see it are threads where the poster claims that if Hillary (or undesired democrat of choice) gets the nomination that he/she will either 'Vote 3rd Party', 'Not Vote', 'Vote Republican' (yes, I've seen those posts here).

This is a website for democrats. 2008 will be my fourth major election I've experienced here on DU and the one policy that has been consistent since 2002 - after the primaries this website supports democrats. When Lieberman lost the primaries his Avatars were pulled, his forum was closed down (he had one from the presidential run in 2004) and threads were locked supporting Lieberman's independent run (although some slipped through - moderators are not perfect, it's a challenging job - been there done that)

I'm not here to chase anyone away but I'm also not going to sit idly by while posters plot on how they're going to vote for non-democrats in the general election. I appreciate that for some of you, voting for Hillary or other democrats in the general election might be a big challenge but please remember - this is the Democratic Underground and the bulk of us here support our party. Everyday I find a new reason to be disgusted in what my part does which means everyday I find the will to fight harder for better candidates. But when the primaries are done, I'd rather spend the next 4 years fighting a democrat in the White House (or congress) that at least will get a few of the things done that are important to us than to fight a republican who won't give a shit about any of the issues we support.

That's my 2 cents

And yes, I'm supporting Biden - flame away

[monktonman]

1. Flik, flik, flik, Dammit, Cant get this torch lit.

Oh well, you'll have to flame yourself I guess.

[LynneSin]

3. My ass is already burnt

but that does nothing to shrink its size

:cry:

[youthere]

5. Heat promotes swelling.

[Byronic]

2. I agree!

Bill Clinton said: "Fall in love in the primaries, fall in line in the general election."

He was right.

Great post LynneSin. I'm right there with you in supporting Senator Biden, but will support ANY of the Democratic candidates for the presidency that make it out of the primary pit.

That said, it would be awfully nice if the nominee were Joe....

[Froward69]

16. Damn Straight

I wonder when Edwards people will wake up. and realize Biden has a much better chance than Edwards against the republicans. both are good but Biden is Centrist enough to garner republican support.
So I am in love with Biden but will vote for Edwards if forced to. for now I push Biden.
I have given all I can he needs your help

https://secure.ga3.org/03/joebiden/nQ7sOhb71wepo?

[Alamom]

4. I agree completely. This will be my 10th time to proudly vote for the Democratic Nominee. ABAR.

I haven't always supported the one who got the nod, but once it's done, I love them compared to the REP-tiles on the other side.

I only vote for Democrats and I've never needed to hold my nose to do it

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

6. As you know, I'm right there with ya.

:hug:

[Mist]

7. Thanks for that blast of reality! We need it sometimes! nt

[TwilightZone]

8. But, but...there's no difference between the parties, so it doesn't matter!

Or so I've been told.

Any of our candidates would be better than the best of the Republicans. I'm amazed by how many people don't seem to get that. One only has to look as far as John Roberts or the huge tax cuts for the rich to understand it.

Additionally, the Democratic Party isn't about just the top of the ticket. We need to increase our presence at all levels of government. Staying home or voting for non-Democrats isn't going to accomplish that.

Unfortunately, I think you're in for a challenge from the vote third-party/won't vote/vote R crowd. They may be the minority on DU, but they're a rather vocal one.

On a related note, here's a rather scary poll (in my opinion): http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=1912916&mesg_id=1912916

[LynneSin]

11. I love the hypothetical question like "Would you vote democrat if Hitler was the nominee"

well, since this has not happened and probably will not happen what does it matter what my answer is?

Since Hillary hasn't come out and voted for a war in Iran nor publically endorsed a war with Iran why would I make a hypothetical guess as to how I would vote for Hillary the nominee.

[TwilightZone]

13. Agreed.

The logical problem with the Hitler question, of course, is that Hitler wouldn't get nominated as a (D), but that logic seems to be conveniently ignored.

The insinuation is apparently that one or some of our candidates are on the same political plane as Hitler.

[lwcon]

9. K&R

But Biden? ;-)

---

http://www.correntewire.com/blog/vastleft

[DinahMoeHum]

10. As I've said before, the worst Democrat among the POTUS candidates

is STILL a THOUSAND TIMES BETTER than the "best" Republikkkan.

Yes, even Hillary would be a thousand times better than any GOOPER candidate.

Fuck the "purity police".

:kick::kick:

[LynneSin]

12. The bottom line for me is the Supreme Court

I know Hillary will protect my right to choose - there is not one republican candidate that can make that same promise.

And if we women lose our right to choose - well it was 34 years ago RoeVWade which means it could be another 34 years until we get the Supreme Court aligned back in our favor.

:scared:

[TwilightZone]

17. I've seen several people make the argument that Hillary wouldn't protect choice.

Considering her record, it's a ludicrous assertion, but its ridiculousness didn't stop people from making it.

They would apparently prefer to ensure that it's lost by keeping the Republicans in office.

[LynneSin]

24. Emily's List is supporting Hillary

They're all about choice and women

[TwilightZone]

25. And she's rated 100% by NARAL

There are plenty of issues to have concerns about with Hillary; choice isn't one of them!

[Zandor]

14. K & R

DU supports the Democrats in the general, and rightfully so.

[Sivart]

15. I couldn't disagree more

I am a voter, and registered as a democrat. But that does not mean that I am obligated to vote for a candidate I do not like. And visiting a website does not make me obligated to vote for a person I don't like, either.

There are a couple of candidates running for the democratic presidential nomination that there is no way I will ever vote for - for anything. that is my right, no matter where I chose to spend my time online.

Maybe supporting the party means something different to me. Maybe to me supporting the party means choosing the best candidate for office - not the most popular.....or not the media's favorite.....or not the one highest in the polls.....or whatever.

If being a democrat - or visiting this site - means that I have to blindly vote for whichever democrat gets the nomination, then count me out.

[Bonobo]

18. Being a Democrat means I want to influence the party in my direction.

I will do so in the manner of my own choosing whether it pleases others or not.

I have that right and you have the right to your own 2 cents.

Edited to make it clear I am actually directing this at the OP, sorry for misplacing it.

[MGKrebs]

45. I don't think anyone is saying that coming to this site

compels you to vote for anyone. It's just that if you don't vote for the Dem, comments reflecting that may not be welcome here. Vote for whoever the hell you want to, but don't expect to come in here bragging that you voted for the Repub without repercussions.

[ProudDad]

55. I'm voting for the only REAL democrat in the race

in the Primary and the General election...whether he's "nominated" or not!!!

[William769]

19. Great rant!

All I will add is the one's that say they won't vote for the Democratic nominee will just fade away in a couple of Months and thats a good thing!

[Sivart]

21. Nice attitude.

Looks good on you.....and for the party, too.

[William769]

22. Thank you!

Anyone who does not support the Democratic nominee on a Democratic board, does not deserve to be here.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[William769]

29. I really don't care ho long you have been here.

The simple fact is, the rules on the board are very clear, and once the nominee is picked well...

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudDad]

57. Don't listen to these guys

there are some real RW "dems" on this board. Some here HATE real progressives.

This place ain't the DU of 5 years ago, that's for sure...

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProudDad]

56. You're the one who's deluded

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates."

Democrats and OTHER PROGRESSIVES. GENERALLY SUPPORTIVE OF PROGRESSIVE IDEALS...

No loyalty oath or mindless obedience to the Party Line required...

Your post was alert bait...

[LynneSin]

50. Cleary you didn't read the rules before you joined here

:eyes:

[frylock]

31. i've been here for five years..

and I ain't going anywhere.

[William769]

32. Good.

Then once the nominee is picked for us I won't be seeing any mud slinging from you. :hi:

[frylock]

36. no. i'll wait till hillary's elected..

than I can enjoy the status quo.

[ProudDad]

58. And the next war

and no Health Care...

[EFerrari]

34. Neither you nor the DLC should count on that.

:hi:

[William769]

42. I count on the Admins doing what they always do.

:hi:

[Vilis Veritas]

20. Nicely put...Thanks!

K & R

Together We Are Invincible

No Fear.

[riona]

23. Our primary vote probably won't count

But when it comes to the general election, I'll go with the the winning Dem. my choice or not. (Frankly, I wonder if that vote will count either given our track record).

[zulchzulu]

26. Does the Charcoal Pit have a burger named after Joe?

I know he goes there...maybe DiNardo's?

[SIMPLYB1980]

28. Hear! Hear!

I really think most of the people like that are freeper trolls just trying to rile us up! Don't fall for it people, and no matter what you think about Hillary she would be better than any republican.

[frylock]

30. blame your party..

I've voted a straight dem ticket for 8 year now. I'm finished, and I'll be FUCKING GODDAMNED if I'm going to be blamed when the dems blow it again. You people need to look in the fucking mirror. Your party sucks.

[EFerrari]

33. I think HRC is the next nominee so am going to focus on other things

like election protection and other races. I'll try, because sometimes it's hard to stfu. Maybe I need a sound proof booth next to my kitchen table.

lol

:)

[ProudDad]

59. She hasn't "won" yet... (n/t)

[Cameron27]

38. Great post !

It's the hypocrisy. Clinton gets bashed for the same things that others are never called on. I find myself defending her just to try to level the playing field around here, and challenging the "facts" in the some holier than thou cheerleading threads.

I don't understand not voting, or not voting Democratic either, especially after what we've been through, what's at stake, and how close we are to electing a Democrat as POTUS.

[peacetalksforall]

39. I call myself an Independent because I had to register a Party

where I lived a long time ago, but I've watched foul play by Republicans for too many decades and I haven't voted for one for decades. I've always connected with Dem ideals.

The vote in 2004 was a wake up for me. Though there was so much to admire about the man, I was very lukewarm about Kerry as President. And I carried a grudge about his Iraq position since the day the vote was taken.

I was shocked to wake up one morning to find he had been selected as the Dem candidate and I really started learning about the DLC as a result.

I supported him and would have never voted for a Republican. I worked myself up to euphoria the morning I got up so early to vote for him and the days leading up to it - campaigning.

Then it all crashed for me within the few hours that started when I heard Edwards say they were going to fight to the end and two-three hours later hear Kerry say he was backing out.

We haven't been treated well by the DLC and by some candidates. And those candidates haven't been fair to Kucinich. I haven't picked anyone other than Al Gore.

I can see myself becoming euphoric again, but it is really dicey. The thought of bombing Iran has me crying every day.

I think people understand that when people are trying to express their anger they start sentences with the word IF. If xxxx is the candidate, I will xxxxx.

The idea of Dems for war - interpreted by me as death, destruction, deceit, debt is getting worse for me to handle. We have seen our country plunge. How can a Dem do that to us?

It is the fault of the candidates against our plea for no war that is at the heart of it for me this time around. My resolve to not vote Republican has grown by the millions.

The situation is much more dire than in 2004. You have to expect people to say (and or do) what ever makes them feel like they are fighting against the trend of Dems for war and the downfall of the U.S.

It's not the fault of the Dems who threaten. They should not have been in the position to be that angry. Whether what they know they are angry about is the bankruptcy vote or half meant support for hate crime or the now war and tomorrow's war and more debt, debt, debt.

This is not just a former decade before 2000 type campaign. This is a life and death and maiming campaign.

It's possible that no one would be stating those IF sentences if Dems did not take money from corporations - the start and end of life when the corporations are associated with Republicans.

Hillary jumps out in that regard. Edwards has it all over her.

It is a key issue with thinking Dems and that is who is on DU.

The passion is real. The passion is deserved - just as your passion is for writing your thread.

[Usrename]

40. Hillary and Obama supported Lieberman after he left the party.

Your loyalty is misplaced.

[Cameron27]

41. I think that's wrong.

No one supported Lieberman after he left the party.

[William769]

43. You need to recheck your facts.

[LynneSin]

47. Most all of the democrats supported Lieberman BEFORE the primaries

aftewards they all but a few true moderate democrats endorsed Lamont.

None of the candidates running for the democrat nominee endorsed Lieberman after the primaries including Christopher Dodd, who is the other CT senator

[ProudDad]

62. WTF is a "moderate dem"

if they can endorse lie-berman over Lamont they can HARDLY be called "moderate"... Traitor to humanity, war monger, mindless Zionist maybe but "moderate" -- NO WAY, JOSE...

[Milo_Bloom]

44. What if the 3rd party candidate is better?

What if the 3rd party candidate, on the issues, is more of a democrat than the democrats?

Is being democratic just voting for the person with the D next to their name, no matter what how much they sell out OR is it believing in a set of principles and voting for those principles?

I have some friends who are moderate republicans who have virtually the same views as most of the people on here and myself. They, however, voted for bush simply because he had an R next to their name. I blame them, and their mentality for what is going on today, because I think if people didn't just vote for the R, but actually voted on the issues, bush wouldn't be in office today.

The problem with this theory "I'd rather spend the next 4 years fighting a democrat in the White House (or congress) that at least will get a few of the things done that are important to us " is you are going to get crappy solutions to problems, such as the current health care plans that only make the situation WORSE, but wind up taking them off the table. Do you really think there will continue to be a discussion on this issue once everyone is covered, no matter how bad the coverage is? It's going to go away, the same way unemployment isn't a topic for discussion once you fiddle with the numbers and make the unemployment rate under 5%.

The reality is that I'd rather spend the next 4 years fighting a INDEPENDENT in the White House (or congress) that at least will get a few of the things done that are important to us than to fight a Democrat who is going to sell us out for nothing more than political popularity and take the issues we really care about off the table.

[LynneSin]

46. Then perhaps you'll need to find a 3rd Party Candidate underground

The history of this webforum is to support Democrat candidates. I think if you go into the rules section of DU it's better explained about these rules.

And let's just say the 3rd party candidate is better than the democrat. Well, unfortunately the electorial system, which will be the system used in 2008, is pretty much setup that 3rd party candidates will spoil the race for the party that is on their side of the political spectrum and help the party on the opposite political spectrum.

So in a nutshell - voting 3rd party would ultimately aid in electing a republican. And I don't care how shitty of a democrat candidate we have - it's still better than a republican

[Milo_Bloom]

51. Actually...

If you read the mission statement of the website, you will find the following, "We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals. While the vast majority of our visitors are Democrats, this web site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, nor do we claim to speak for the party as a whole."

So, in reality, the forum exists to support democratic ideals, more than to act as a cheering section for every crappy candidate who has the misfortune of having a D next to his or her name.

Second, this is completely untrue, "And I don't care how shitty of a democrat candidate we have - it's still better than a republican"

There are R's who are far better than most of the D's currently running. I would take Lincoln Chafee R and all over most of our current field of candidates.

Also, you ignore the main point, which is a shitty democratic candidate has the ability to take some of the most important issues off the table due to a capitulation solution that does more to exacerbate the problem.

The one thing I agree with you on is that once a candidate is chosen, DU should not be used as a forum to advocate a 3rd party candidate over the D candidate. And if the Democrats pick a crappy candidate, I will leave the forum, because I will be working as hard as I can to make sure that they are not elected to office and although I believe I would be doing it BECAUSE of my progressive value, I would respect the rules and not advocate that on this forum. However, until that time that the candidate is chosen, I am going to work on this forum to remind people that there are millions out there with my same mentality and if you step blindly off the cliff with a crappy candidate, you are going to be struggling against your own in the general election. And that is reality.

[ProudDad]

65. I don't have to leave

since I'll be working for and voting for the REAL democrat no matter who's "nominated"...

[Milo_Bloom]

68. I hear ya...

The problem becomes when the "party" starts blindly following the D no matter what and people actually try and talk themselves into liking the candidate.

If god forbid Clinton or Edwards or similar sell-outs get the nom, this forum will become a place only for people who are willing to vote for them and those not willing to get on board will be tombstoned if they post their opinions. I personally don't agree with that, but it is their board and their right to cover their ears if they wish.

[ProudDad]

64. I'm reminded of the parable of the blind men and the elephant

One man grabs the elephant's leg and describes the elephant as like an oak tree...

One man grabs the elephant's tail and describes it as like a snake...

One man grabs the elephant's ear and describes it as like a palm tree...

Which part of this elephant have you grabbed, eh???



The RULE is in post #54 -- I suggest you read it...

[LynneSin]

71. I think I also posted the rules about this being a site that supports democrat candidates

especially when it's general election time

Go ahead, give me more of your bullcrap - doesn't matter to me. I mean, if you sleep better at night knowing that you're replying to every one of my posts trying to somehow get around the concept that this is a website that supports democratic candidates and does not endorse 3rd party or other non-democrat candidates - have a field day.

Your act is getting tiresome.

[ProudDad]

81. Evidently, you're too tired to actually read my posts... (n/t)

[truebrit71]

48. Weren't you the one that reinforced how important it was to get Dems in '06 into office?

Even if they were just marginally (D) and more like DINO's? Your logic back then was it would give us the majority and we would control the congressional agendas and we would head all of the committees and boy-oh-boy were heads going to roll in the rethuglican party....

How'd that work out?

Not too well, right? (Or did I miss the de-funding of the war, the impeachment hearings and the roll-backs of the tax-gifts to the wealthy?)

You can wrap up a dead fish in a tuxedo but it's still a dead fish...

Marching in lock-step with "the party and whomever they nominate" is no frickin' different than the GOP's MO and I for one ain't gonna take it lying down.

I will vote for and support change. If the Democratic party can't do that, then I'll have to find somewhere else to go I guess, but until then I will do what I can to make sure that the nominee is NOT just a continuation of the failed corporatist and war-mongering policies that got us into this mess in the first place.

If HRC gets the nod the Democratic party will have left me, NOT the other way around.

[LynneSin]

49. Oh PUL-LEASE!!! Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out

What impeachment - the one that won't ever get beyond slapping Bush's hand since last time I checked our constitution needs 67 senators to complete impeachment.

As for the democrat majority - I'm proud of what they're trying to do. They have an idiot in the White House who finally figured out he can veto shit (never needed to do that when republicans were handing him everything he wanted) and we have amazing investigations going on by the likes of Leahy, Waxman, Conyers, Rangel et al. You think those things are going to go through smoothly simply because we have an ever-so-slight majority in the Senate?

Perhaps you should stick with british politics since clearly you don't have a clue about American Politics.

One of the biggest messages I had with the whole 2006 elections was our fight, which would continue on past 2006, would be a little bit easier because at least we know something things can be stopped - like activist judges on the Supreme Court.

But sure - make up shit all you like and oh, don't let the door hit you on the ass as you leave. I realize the democrat party is extremely flawed, but they're still better to fight with than the republicans

[truebrit71]

63. "Amazing investigations" ? Really? How're those subpoenas working out for ya?

"Clearly don't have a clue about American Politics"...yeah hun, I've only lived here for 25+yrs..I don't know SHIT about American Politics...:eyes:

"things can be stopped"...like what exactly? The GOP has to fight a little harder to get their agenda rubber-stamped? Wow, those DINO's sure are "stopping" things aren't they?....:eyes:

"the Democrat party"? Don't you mean DemocratIC party?

"Make up shit"? Like what, how "amazing" the investigations are going? How "amazing" the impeachment procedures are going? How "amazing" the de-funding of the illegal war is going? How "amazing" the restoration of the Constitution is going?

Puhleez...

Oh, and if we DON'T get a proper Dem in the WH in '08 sweetie, then we ALL get kicked in the ass, but thanks for the suggestion...how "progressive" of you...:eyes:

[ProudDad]

66. "Civility: Treat other members with respect."

"Civility: Treat other members with respect."

Way to GO!!!!

[LynneSin]

69. Sorry - but I'm tired of the disrepect of those who support our democratic party

It's a 2-way street and both ends are getting their asses kicked

[MadHound]

52. So, since there are Democratic candidates out there

Who are more than willing to continue the death and destruction in Iraq and elsewhere, you are saying that you are willing to sanction such actions with your vote simply to have somebody in the White House with a D behind their name?

[ProudDad]

53. If hillary gets the nomination

I'm either voting "none of the above" or writing in my candidate of choice.

I NEVER VOTE REPUGLICAN or REPUGLICAN-LITE...

[ProudDad]

54. Your basic premise is fallacious

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives. Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office. Democratic Underground is not affiliated with the Democratic Party, and comments posted here are not representative of the Democratic Party or its candidates."

Democrats and OTHER PROGRESSIVES... not just people who happen to be registered "Democrat"...

In addition, I believe that "generally supportive of progressive ideals" trumps "support Democratic candidates for political office" if the candidate in question is demonstrably NOT GENERALLY SUPPORTIVE OF PROGRESSIVE IDEALS!!!!!

So, again, I don't vote for or support any repuglicans or repuglican-lite...

[Sparkly]

60. You might ask the admins whether one thing "trumps" another.

I think both phrases are written just as they meant them. After all, some people here think the Republicans hold the "progressive" view on gun control. Go figure.

[ProudDad]

67. Well...

supporting "Democratic candidates for political office" trumps "generally supportive of progressive ideals" if the candidate in question is demonstrably NOT GENERALLY SUPPORTIVE OF PROGRESSIVE IDEALS!!!!!

doesn't make any sense, no how, no way!!!


So I'll stick with my belief of what trumps what. :hi:

[LynneSin]

70. Yes but the site rules also state that this is a place to support democrat candidates

and not 3rd party candidates.

As I've stated in my original post - I don't care if people badmouth Hillary

I'm just fighting back when I hear this crap about how we should 'vote 3rd party/not vote/vote republican' bullshit.

[truebrit71]

76. Okay, for the last time...if you're going to shill for the party line, at least get the name...

...of the party right...

We are DEMOCRATS who are members of the DEMOCRATIC party...

Got it?

[truebrit71]

77. ...

Dupe. Stupid Computer Operator Error.

[ProudDad]

82. This board was always a "Progressive" board

It's never been limited to people who happen to check off "Democrat" on their voter registration form...

If the "Progressive" candidate is running against a "Democrat", I'll vote the progressive...because I'M A PROGRESSIVE!!!


Why the fuck should I vote for someone who doesn't hold my principles???

Why the fuck should I vote for someone who would act AGAINST MY PRINCIPLES???

Just because their name ends in "-D"???


No way, Jose. I vote my principles 100% from here on out!

[Capn Sunshine]

61. I'm with you

I'm getting more pissed off daily by the actions of our party in the face of the trust voters gave them in 2006. They are going to fritter away the advantage by their cowardice.

[LynneSin]

73. I knew our party had limits if they got the majority in 2006

I knew that Bush would remember he could veto and has proven that time and again.

I also knew that impeachment would be useless if we got the majority because we did not have the 67 senators to kick the guy out.

I could care less about what's happening with the floor votes because of the tight majority we had that included support from some very moderate democrats and one 'independant democrat' (ie Lieberman)

But it's worth it for the investigations that are coming out of our committees. This is what the majority is about - a committee that is willing to ask the questions. The fact that we got Gonzales to retire is a direct result of the democrat majority. Had republicans retained the majority even in just one part of congress - the republicans would have given Gonzales a free pass.

[rucky]

72. What if someone says they're not voting at all?

Just throwing it out there. Is that against the rules?

[Sivart]

74. Lets check -

Not voting is different than voting for the same candidate as LynneSin.....so its against the rules......If you decide to do that, sorry, you won't be welcome here anymore :(

[derby378]

75. No way in Hell am I voting Republican in 2008

But that's why I'm not supporting Hillary, either.

[Love Bug]

78. The worse Democrat is always going to be better than the 'best' Republican

I agree with you.

[applegrove]

79. Agreed!

[byronius]

80. k&r.

[Debi]

83. Great post!

:thumbsup: