Is all this intercandidate bickering on DU changing your mind?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

There's an awful lot of bile and venom flying about between the supporters and opponents of the various candidates for Democratic presidential nominee on DU at the moment.

What I'm wondering is if any of it is achieving anything. How many people out there have changed which, if any, candidate they support as a result of something they've read on DU?

If so, what sort of something - a post supporting a candidate? an attack? If so, of what sort?

[Clintonista2]

1. I used to be neutral b/w Hillary and Obama

I changed around the time the first "Clinton let Osama go" thread surfaced to Hillary 100%. Thanks Obama supporters!!

[ellacott]

49. In turn, I feel the same about Hillary supporters who constantly bash Obama

There are particular posters here who have made it their mission to post everything negative they can find on Obama. It's truly amazing that people can't admit that they are just as guilty. Hillary bashers are no different than Obama bashers.

[gateley]

2. Nope. I'm more inclined to listen and give thought to someone who explains

to me about an approach their candidate is taking and why. I want to learn.

I think our natural reaction in response to some one screaming and yelling is to "fight back". That totally derails you from the the original message.

[starmaker]

3. ON PURPOSE

the surge of peoples support against the neocon agenda in the 06 election
has been broken quite effectively by the medias attention on candidates since.
Divide and conquor.

[Kelly Rupert]

5. Those darn media,

always talking about candidates.

:eyes:

[starmaker]

12. It's a game

and we are the one's getting fucked.
most people here are caught up in
the illusion of politics
when the media and hollywood and music
have created a culture that isn't thinking

[Kelly Rupert]

4. I often find myself reflexively defending Hillary nowadays,

simply because the attacks on her are so ridiculously baseless. Edwards occasionally, and Obama once in a while, but the anti-Hillary crowd generally says the stupidest things.

Doesn't change my "support," though. I'll vote for Richardson in the primary, in hopes it'll help him get the VP slot, and then I'll vote for whoever wins the Dem nomination in '08.

[Sparkly]

25. I know what you mean. nt

[BootinUp]

30. I have very slowly come to the realization

that Hillary is the smartest one available imho. Obama second, Biden and Richardson are tied, the others are close. Bit that is not what I really wanted to say. It bothers me when blame is taken from Bush and put on Hillary, very much, and I will not always bite my tongue.

[NoodleBoy]

32. word

[LanternWaste]

46. I've been doing the same thing....

I've been doing the same thing in my responses to some the attack posting too , and I haven't even picked or ruled out any candidates as of yet.

But as much as I enjoy DU, no one poster has come close to either talking me into or out of supporting a candidate yet.

[goodgd_yall]

66. I do the same when it's unwarranted, which it often is

I was going to support her, but I changed my mind after the Lieberman/Kyl vote. But I'll defend her if there is an unfair charge made against her. I'll do that with any candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. I Started Out As An Obama Supporter Because I Felt His Election Represents A Redemptive Moment For

Our Nation...

But the constant Hillary (and) Bill bashing is so over the top I feel it is incumbent upon me to come to their defense...

[loves_dulcinea]

7. yeah

i was working for the local obama office, am now considering a different candidate (NOT hrc).

[Bluzmann57]

8. Well, sort of

To be honest, I was leaning toward Kucinich, although not totally commited until some DUers started ripping Iowa and Iowans for being all sorts of terrible things. To those people I say, you quite possibly cost your candidate at least one caucus goer's support. It is very rare that I allow DU or any other forum to influence any decision this important, but when you people blasted my state, I decided, "enough is enough". Too bad because Kucinich has some good ideas.
Just for the record, I am still not commited to any one candidate as yet.

[surfermaw]

16. Take a look at my candidate, Edwards

I don't bash your state or any other state, I suupport Edwards but like Hillary also, going to vote for the candidate who ever it is

[Bluzmann57]

23. I actually caucused for Edwards last time

I went in supporting another candidate, but the more I heard about Edwards, the better I liked him. I still do like him. I wish we could take the best of all our great 8 and combine it into one super candidate, one who could not be beaten no matter what.
edited for awful typing. The old two finger method just ain't makin' it.

[slipslidingaway]

40. That's too bad, I saw that thread and some DK supporters were

not even listening to the concerns of posters from Iowa. The only conclusion that I could come to about Iowa is that with so many other states moving up their primary and caucus dates this year, he felt he could not compete with the other money being thrown into the Iowa???

And as a DK supporter please accept my apology.

[Earth_First]

9. No.

The only change it's made in my mind is the decision to open the GDP as frequently as I am used to.

[progpen]

10. Bile and venom do not change minds in a discussion...

they only drive the others deeper on the defensive. Then it is even less likely that they will "see things your way".

[surfermaw]

11. We need to get it togeather

We should suupport whom ever we want, however when the vote is over we should stand behind the candidate we pick!!!

[tekisui]

13. I appreciate all of the strengths and weaknesses

of both candidates and policy getting *argued* out. I think the serious and hard discussions strengthen the eventual nominee. I want to know as many of my nominees' pros and cons before launching a frontal assault on the Reich Wing's loser.

[bobthedrummer]

14. No,

IMPEACH CHENEY FIRST

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kelly Rupert]

18. Should probably change your name then n/t

[carolinayellowdog]

22. That's not possible but this is the last time I'll be using it

Thanks for your suggestion.

[Kelly Rupert]

26. Sorry to see you leave the party n/t

[surfermaw]

19. Were you ever a democrat, I wonder?

[carolinayellowdog]

21. What would it take to prove it to you?

How about five years of participation in DU?

[GreenArrow]

60. I think you mean "Democrat"

Many of the most democratic posters on this board are the ones least likely to be doctrinaire Democrats.

[Maribelle]

17. I used to support Edwards

The constant bashing of Hillary with what I felt were not true and supportable statements made me want to come to her defense.

[Uben]

20. No, I mean yes, er..... maybe

I have heard about as much as I need to hear about the candidates, and I am at the same place I was 6 months ago. No candidate has swept me to their side convincingly.

My vote........Hillary.

Edwards...I like him, but he has not convinced me he is electable.
Richardson....I really like him a lot, he has diplomatic experience, I trust him, but I feel he is not electable.
Kucinich......Although I like the guy, he is too liberal for me. Got some great ideas though
Biden........not again! No way.

Why Hillary? Because, dammit, I think Bill Clinton was a great president who succeeded despite the right wing throwing everything they had at him. And Hillary stood beside him, and I think she values his input, and I think his/her rationale is better than the others, and with her we avoid the learning curve of the whitehouse.

What? Am I ready for another eight years of Clintons? Your damned tootin I am! Bring it on!

[Bitwit1234]

24. I feel I have to support the bashes against Hillary from the Obama supporters

BUT Edwards is my choice ever since I saw him in Minnesota in 2004. I was crushed when he lost (course he was the VP candidate). But if you have ever seen him in person, he has got that thing like Bill Clinton has.

[kestrel91316]

27. The bickering is EXTREMELY juvenile and I don't get wrapped up in it.

Things are gonna play out in the primaries the way they play out, and in the end there simply ISN'T a Dem in the running I wouldn't vote for. I have my particular favorites, and those I like less for various reasons. But I think it's a waste of time to ARGUE about them.

Present your candidates' good points, folks, and spend less time on the Two Minutes' Hate about the other guy's.

[JustAnotherGen]

28. Nope

I'm firmly committed to Edwards but I will NOT being voting for a Republican in the General election. Nope! Not gonna do it!

I actually enjoy reading some of the (yes at times - vitriolic) back and forth. I like to read/see that there are people out there that are as passionate as I am about a Democrat being in office in 2009. At the end of the day and the end of the Primary voting - we're all going to be on the same team.

I highly doubt anyone who is either posting, or just reading at DU (I read for a long long time before registering) is going to even dare to vote for 4 more years of Republican Stoooopidity if their candidate of choice doesn't win. Let's face it - most of us here are die-hard Dems. Some of us farther to the left than others, some of us a bit more in the center . . . but we all call BULLSHIT on the current Administration and the Congress that "Was" from 1994 until last November.

[Colobo]

29. It makes me support my candidate even more. The Obama haters need to be defeated.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

31. You don't see anything vaguely ironic about that post?

You don't think that there are people out there saying just as firmly "The Hillary haters need to be defeated" and "The Edwards Haters need to be defeated" and so on?

[Colobo]

33. Won't argue with you. Good catch. Still, I stand by my position. :)

:hi:

[BootinUp]

34. Who could possibly

hate Obama dude? :)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

62. Anyone who's been observing some of his supporters on DU.

If it weren't for the valiant efforts of his critics here in balancing them out, I'd hate the man...

[Ethelk2044]

69. His supporters have been busy defending him against Hillary supporters

[Telly Savalas]

35. It makes me appreciate all of the candidates more.

If the best attacks that can be launched against them are the sort of petty puerile bullshit that pollutes GD Politics, then our candidates must not be too bad.

[elana i am]

36. not really

for me there's really only been one choice from the beginning. i have standards, and kucinich is really the only one who lives up to them.

hillary panders to the center so much these days i wouldn't know for sure she was a dem if there wasn't a D after her name. sincerity matters to me. i know, don't hate the player, hate the game. but there's a point at which it goes too far, and the last time she was on the "left" side of it was the day she announced her candidacy. it's been all downhill from there. ambition is not a bad thing, but i can't respect a sellout.

i had much higher hopes for obama, and he was great in the beginning. i guess at first, before he had knowledge of the level of support there was out there for him and had nothing to lose, he was free to be as principled and idealistic as he wanted. but somewhere along the way that changed, i guess when he realized he had a fighting chance and had something to lose by being too progressive and bold in his views. we're not talking hillary levels of pandering here, but he took a wrong turn somewhere and now he's going the wrong way down a one way street.

besides kucinich, edwards is the only one who fairly consistently tells me what i want to hear. but we all have our flaws and his is a smarmy used car salesman personality. maybe it's my hang-up, but i just sometimes seriously quesiton his sincerity, as if he's actually pandering in the proper direction, but pandering nonetheless and pandering turns me off, so...

biden, dodd and richardson are not presidential material in my opinion. they don't inspire and they don't interest me. a certain amount of charisma and...i don't know, political "joie de vivre" maybe...is required and they don't strike me that way at all. of the 3 biden is most compatible with my views though. i do remember one time several months back when biden was being interviewed by neal conan on NPR about his autobiography, he was questioned about an inconsistency in his book. it was an issue inconsequential enough i don't even remember what it is, but even so the entire mood of the inteview hit a wall and he became huffy and combative. i thought, "geez this dude has an anger management problem." it was my first real exposure to him and let's just say he didn't make a good impression. i guess that may color how i view him.

but the opinions of other people on this board do not influence me. i may be the only one in the entire world to get the smarmy used car salesman vibe from edwards, and that's fine. i may also be the only one to hold biden's anger issues against him, but again, it's how i feel. i don't need anyone to agree with me to feel my opinions are valid, neither do i need to let anyone else's opinions influence or compromise my standards.

[zulchzulu]

37. It's called politics

I find myself defending Obama from lies and distortion about him. There is a constant onslaught of that from the usual crowd.

A good recent example was someone screeding vitriol about Obama essentially not being "black enough" or being a hypocrite about his civil rights background because he never said anything about the Jena 6 case. The only problem with that is that he DID make several statements over a week ago as well as was the first Presidential nominee to speak out on the issue. I had to post a message with links to prove otherwise.

There are at least a half dozen idiotic posts like that where you have to push back with links and the record.

I also will mention how it's important to do grassroots work as well for your candidate(s).

It's also important to point out when someone attacks a candidate wrongly or with a baseless charge that they be called out on it.

What I can't stand are people who write something in the subject line and have nothing to back up what they said.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

42. *Why* is it important?

If, as appears from the replies to this thread, very few people are having their minds changed by it all, then surely that implies that it's *not* important at all; it's just sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Moreover, the replies to this thread suggest that the people who *are* having their minds changed are mostly reacting by *opposing* the posts they read - in particular, judging by the replies here, people are being driven to support Hillary Clinton by the unpleasantness of her critics. If that's so, then if anything, the best thing you could do for Obama would be to keep quiet about him?

[zulchzulu]

45. So your suggestion is to let people lie about a candidate and shut your piehole?

Sorry... that doesn't fly with me.

You must be new to politics...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

48. Yes, that's exactly my suggestion.

Given that the evidence suggests that it will work better, I think you are foolish not to "let it fly with you".

[zulchzulu]

56. Thanks for the suggestion

I won't bother to consider it. You can't be serious.

[lligrd]

38. Nope, The Candidates Own Words Are

But some of their words are really pissing me off and DU is a great place to vent.

[FrenchieCat]

39. NO, but facts certainly can........

And that's what I look for.

[avrdream]

41. No.

It just gave me a few people to ignore and helped send me over to General Discussion a whole lot more. Just seeing who started a thread is often enough to keep me away from that one.

Nothing has changed my vote but certain individual posters have been very mature and calm amidst the storm and I respect their candidates more as a consequence.

I don't care who becomes the Democratic nominee - that person will get my vote because I'm damned proud of all of them.

[1932]

43. Only about DU.

[NoFederales]

44. Not at all; if anything, the harpy-singing is hardcore polarization. nt

NoFederales

[Clark2008]

47. Yeah - it's made me even MORE unsure who to vote for in Feburary.

I haven't selected a horse to back.

I don't see any winners, to be honest.

[bklyncowgirl]

51. I'm in the same boat--undecided--unless Gore gets in.

Al Gore is the only one out there that I could get wholeheartedly behind.

As for the candidates that are actually running, I don't have much faith that those candidates who may have the skills to get elected (Obama, Edwards, Clinton) could actually run the government. The candidates who may have the skills and knowledge to run the government (Richardson, Biden, Dodd) seem to lack the skills and charisma that are required to win election.

In addition, their supporters on this board are not endearing me to any of the top tier candidates.

[blondeatlast]

50. No. Still completely undecided. The bashing of all the candidates makes me ill. nt

[janx]

52. It's disgusting.

Absolutely revolting. I can't believe a post I just received in GD just now--in response to something that was really an innocent remark.

I haven't made up my mind yet, but people make such moronic assumptions...

[MissMarple]

53. No. I try make up my own mind without benefit of partisan bickering.

And I'd rather read what the goppers and fundies are using to trash their own. ;)

[Enrique]

54. I changed my avatar from Dennis to Hillary

I haven't really made up my mind yet -- my head is with Dennis and I'll probably vote for him because I usually go with my head -- but I found myself defending Hillary so much that it would look weird to have a Dennis avatar.

[Armstead]

55. No about Hilary -- Open minded otherwise

My own major preoccupation is the hope that somehow Hilary can be derailed, because what she represents will be vary damaging to the Democratic Party and to America (IMO of course).

Philosophically and as a person, DK is my main man. But I realize one hasta be realistic, and DK isn't gaining traction. So I hafta look towards the next-best alternative ultimately.

I'm open minded about the rest of the candidates, and am persuadable by information on DU about them. I could be persuaded to support Edwards or Obama, or perhaps Biden or Dodd.

[Forkboy]

57. No, no one here can change my mind at this point, and I bet I'm not alone.

I do almost all my research on candidates away from DU.When a story crops up here that I haven't seen elsewhere I'll see what I can find out about it from multiple sources, if possible, and go from there.

For most policy questions I just look at the candidates own words and actions and decide from there.I don't need the blinded partisan supporters of anyone telling me where the person they like stands when the person has their own words to look at and study.Every candidate has a handful of supporters that suck, some more noticeable than others, but they don't affect how I feel about the candidate they support, luckily for that candidate. :)

Besides, I have yet to see a primary that wasn't like this, on DU or off.The only difference this time around was that it all got started earlier, but that's just because people can't wait to get Bush the Hell out of there.

[goodgd_yall]

68. "Can't wait to get Bush the Hell out of there."

Exactly! Had to start imaging something different since January to keep hope alive 'til the election!

[Snarkturian Clone]

58. I was with Dennis until...

I read on DU about his support of a nationwide smoking ban. A massive restriction on freedom.

[tammywammy]

59. I get tired of all the stupid misleading attacks on all the candidate

All of them. I find it beyond the pale that anyone choose to go to that depth just to bash anyone. And I find it ridiculously stupid as well.

I get tired of all the bashing and the beat downs of everyone.

I don't mind justified criticism, but the low digging and spinning just to attack is quite annoying. I tend to ignore those threads.

[ellacott]

63. Yes, It IS very annoying and also pretty juvenile

It is very disappointing.

[jcrew2001]

61. This place needs to be renamed Hillary Underground

I think she has donated to this site. where are other hillary-free sites?

[donsu]

64. No

nt

[treestar]

65. There is that element of who could win

But it is hard to say - also who the repuke is could matter - who could best which one. That involved considering voters who are not DUers and the realities that most of those are farther right.

[goodgd_yall]

67. When someone posts something I'm unaware of

I check out the information. Sometimes it is untrue; sometimes it gives me more to think about in whether I'll support a particular candidate or not, but I never take what a DUer posts at face value if it is information new to me. I check into it further.

[stranger81]

70. If anything, it's reinforcing my dislike for Hillary. [n/t]