"STOP HILLARY NOW" billboard, and why I think Hillary can't win in the South.

[Dawgs]

This is the Sean Hannity billboard I pass everyday on the way to work. In big letters it says "STOP HILLARY NOW". It doesn't say "STOP OBAMA NOW", or "STOP EDWARDS NOW". It says "STOP HILLARY NOW". The billboard is just outside Atlanta.

Last winter I went to an Atlanta Thrashers NHL hockey game to cheer on the home team. During one of the TV timeouts they do this thing where they show a picture of one of the fans, and then they show a picture of a celebrity that looks like that person. On this paticular night they were showing fans that looked like politicians (Arnold, Rudy, Gore, etc..). After showing four or five they finally got to a woman that looked like Hillary. They showed the woman for two or three seconds and then put up a picture of Hillary. The whole place errupted in BOOS, and not just for a few seconds. I'm talking about 20,000-30,000 people all booing when they showed a picture Hillary. There was no reaction for any other celebrity.

Now, I can see how Hillary might have be able to win in the city of Atlanta. It's a liberal city with many African Americans. But, just outside of Atlanta in the suburbs, and all throughout Georgia, most of the people hate Hillary - not dislike, but hate. They will come to the polls with passion to beat her. They are rabid Republicans, and they have the choice of no less than five right-wing talk radio stations.

Air America left Atlanta last year.

What does this mean for the rest of the South (NC, SC, Alabama, Ark, Tenn, Miss)? Atlanta is by far the largest liberal city in the South. If she can't win Georgia, with a city like Atlanta, she has no chance in any other state in the South.

Flame me all you want, but I live her, and I see the hate every day.

[derby378]

1. Not a fan of Hillary, myself, but blame the media

The corporate media (Katie, Tweety, etc.) chose Hillary as the Democratic '08 candidate, kept hammering her into our heads until we started buying into it, and are now saying that she can't win against Giuliani. So who do you think the corporate media has been working for all this time?

I feel your pain. But Hitler's assertion still stands true: "The great masses of the public will more easily fall for a great lie than a small one." Just look at what Herr Decider did with 9/11.

[Tesha]

154. It doesn't matter who's to blame for Hillary's public state.

> Not a fan of Hillary, myself, but blame the media.

It doesn't matter who's to blame for Hillary's public state.
But if we choose her, damaged goods that she is, and she goes
on to lose the election, then the blame for her choice as the
Democratic nominee falls squarely on *US*!

All the data are there for folks to see, if they would only
look with open eyes.

Tesha

[OwnedByFerrets]

2. I live in AL and I hear it from Repugs and Progressives

every day. They WILL not vote for Hill. You want to lose the 08 election......let the media make her our nominee.
I also talk with a lot of ppl on the internet outside of DU. I havent met ONE yet who will vote for her.
Outside of DU, I havent met or heard from one supporter of Hillary Clinton. YMMV

[Alamom]

141. Maybe you should add you are in one of the most conservative towns in the state with this

declaration.....the Register is a Repuke Rag.

I lived there a few years and have relatives there. They support Hillary.

[Alamom]

142. self delete dupe

[Alamom]

143. self-delete dupe

[thereismore]

3. How can Mike Malloy live there is beyond me. nt

[Dawgs]

9. Actually, Atlanta is a great city. It's very liberal near the city.

Unfortunately, it's full of a bunch of bush lovers everywhere else.

[Deep13]

4. I wonder if any of our people can win in the South.

:shrug:

[Fredda Weinberg]

10. Bill Clinton & Jimmy Carter. Of course it can be done. No flames needed

Sheesh ... our presumptive front runner is getting free promotion and you're complaining? I'm always grateful for the mistakes of my opponents.

As for voters down there, why don't you let the lady work the charm she exhibited in Arkansas? She won re-election handily in my state's conservative districts.

I campaigned for her to take our senate seat and she's done us proud. Wait 'till the campaign begins ... until then, the rabid wingnuts will froth to our benefit.

[Deep13]

11. I'm not complaining. nt

[Dawgs]

16. Bill Clinton of the nineties and Jimmy Carter (a Southerner) are not despised by the right.

Like I said, Hillary is the only politician that everyone boos.

[wyldwolf]

19. see, Dawgs, what you just wrote is a prime example of why I can't take you seriously.

[Dawgs]

21. Why, were you there to see the other politicians get booed?

I doubt it, because she was the only one to get booed. And, not just by a few. Every single person (outside of me and my wife) sounded like they were booing when they showed Hillary. That arena holds at least 30,000 people.

[wyldwolf]

32. Saying the rightwing doesn't despise Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter is beyond naive.

...it enter the land of dumbassery.

[Dawgs]

42. At the time they won, they were not despised like Hillary is now.

I'm the one being dumb and naive? No, it looks like you are the one that can't get over your blind love for Hillary.

[wyldwolf]

49. you're either too young to remember or weren't born yet.

[Dawgs]

53. I'm not too young.

The hatred for Democrats(like we see it now), began with Limbaugh and right-wing talk radio. That is a fact that many Hillary supporters want to deny.

[wyldwolf]

65. Rightwing talk radio began before Clinton's first run.

[Clark2008]

57. Let me help just a bit.

It's not just the rightwing that the OP is talking about here: it's the general population in the flyover states - not just the South.

These people have only right-wing talk radio as choices. Most of their local media leans right. They pay very little attention to politics except the periphials when it comes time to vote.

These are the people who hate Hillary, but didn't hate Bill Clinton or Jimmy Carter, both of whom netted enough of the Bubba vote to win most of the Southern states and many of the mid-Western states.

These same people, many of whom are swing-voters who do not participate in the primary elections, will not vote for Hillary, for a variety of reasons.

Of course, the rightwing hates Bill and Jimmy and Hillary, but we're not talking about them. We're talking about Joe and Jane Sportsfan who probably only vote in presidential elections and very little else. They don't like her. They just don't.

But, if it helps, they probably wouldn't like Edwards or Obama, either. They might go for a Biden, if he was Southern or mid-Western or even a Richardson, but they're not going to be for a woman, a black man or a man who pays $400 for haircuts. Sorry.

[Fredda Weinberg]

66. "they're not going to be for a woman" ... I disagree

Enough will - Hillary's a charmer with a proven track record. She doesn't have to work behind a man anymore - and Bill's her response to those who claim we're feminazis.

[Carolina]

91. Hillary's a charmer?!

No, WJC was the charmer but even he doesn't have it any more.

Bottom line, there ARE huge segments of the population that will not vote for a woman, a black, a Jew or a man who gets $400 haircuts. PERIOD. And they are not necessarily feminazis. It's just the sad state of the USA.

[Fredda Weinberg]

94. Re-read Ark news accounts after Bill lost re-election

Hillary changed her look, even took his name. Yup, she's a charmer all right.

[Clark2008]

100. I am a woman and I stand by what I said above.

HRC's no charmer.

[wyldwolf]

67. the only thing you've done is confused the issue even more

Because there is nothing but "progressive" truthiness to support your words.

[Clark2008]

102. I'm afraid I don't understand your lingo.

However, I was pointing out that it's not only the rightwing who hates her - it's a lot of middle-of-the-road folks, as well.

[sendero]

145. If it were only the right wing..

... that would be manageable. A very large section of the middle hates her as well.

In fact, if the Republican party wasn't literally ON THE ROPES, Hillary Clinton would have ZERO chance of winning the presidency.

As it is, she might have a 50% change, maybe.

[Tesha]

155. A pretty healthy swath of the left thinks she sucks too!

Mr. Tesha and I supported her during her 2000 Senate run,
but are a part of that left-wing cohort now for sure!

Somewhere between voting for multiple wars, voting for
bans on flag-burning, cozying up to the Bushes, and
supporting a welfare plan for the Health Insurance
industry, we've decided she's not a democratic Democrat.

Tesha

[wyldwolf]

30. Saying the righwing doesn't hate Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter is beyond naive.

[Andromeda]

153. Ditto for me

.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

119. As a New Yorker, I can honestly say she let us down.

During the campaign she promised to bring jobs to upstate NY. She didn't keep her promise. Where I live, you have to drive a hour away to get a descent paying job. There are a lot of people here who hate her, and a lot of people who still like Bush (they think he‘s keeping us safe).

As a New Yorker I can tell you that the GOP didn't try to unseat Hillary in '06. They ran a nobody against her and didn't back him. ...The GOP wants Hillary to win the primaries.

Hillary's either being set up for a fall, or (and this is what I think) she's in with BushCo. ...The ramifications of some of Bill’s decisions helped BushCo in many ways.

It’s like this....

BushCo steals two presidential elections -----> they allow dems to take control of the House and Senate in ‘06 (We win just enough to be considered the majority, but not by enough to be veto proof...we win enough to gain subpoena power, but BushCo can’t remember shit, ...blame for the war is now on dems laps) ------> BushCo doesn’t care about their party ----> they know the public would never believe a republican could win in ’08 ----> They need a corporate democrat....................

[Carrieyazel]

128. The reality is not the same as it was in 1976 or in 1992.

The southern states (in PRESIDENTIAL elections) have migrated to the Repukes, even with all their failures, incompetence and corruption, the South will still vote Repuke and its going to take some time to get a few of those states back. Not until 2012 or later. But the good news is that there is low-hanging fruit in Colorado, Nevada and Ohio for 2008, but only if we nominate the best candidate (not Hillary). These states are ripe for the picking for a non-polarizing candidate that represents change (again, not Hillary) and someone who doesn't have a freight train full of baggage.

[Clark2008]

22. Wes Clark could have.

Sigh.

[Carrieyazel]

127. Not in 2008. But the good news is that we can win without them.

However, we must do well in the West, and the northern tier east of the Plains and west of PA.

[William769]

5. You know how many signs there are to stop a African American in the South?

Heres a clue.

[Dawgs]

12. Correct. Other candidates = a slim chance of winning, Hillary = zero chance of winning.

[William769]

18. Polls say otherwise, but I know you can't be bothered with that pesky little fact,

Actually Edwards has the best chance of winning the South, thats why he is slowly creeping up on Obama and getting ready to knock him into third.

[Clark2008]

23. And he still has no chance.

He's not a Southern man's Southern man - not even for the swing-vote Bubbas.

[Carolina]

92. exactly!

[Dawgs]

27. That's fine. I like Edwards just as much as Obama.

Edwards/Obama would be fine with me.

[Ethelk2044]

124. Edwards will not win. We saw him in 2004. He will not be elected

[Tellurian]

35. The only reason Hillary is the primary Target is she's the strongest candidate...

[William769]

46. Mentally and physically!

[Just-plain-Kathy]

120. You know, some of the signs in your photo aren't being held by people.

...And the pile up of signs in front of the “crowd” only proves that turn out was less then what was expected.

[bvar22]

122. I count 16 people, 60+ signs.

It is not a good picture to sell Hillary.

Bags of $MONEY$ and Madison Avenue overkill advertising, but few feet on the ground.

Resembles DU. A handful of Hillary supporters, but they are fanatics (or employees) who make a lot of noise and deliver TONS of canned spam, just like the photo.

[Carrieyazel]

126. Yeah, she's the strongest candidate all right: for the other side!!!

[Greyhound]

140. Care to tell us which state you live in?

There are a few mid-western states that HRC can slip through, maybe, but you can write off the south entirely. Sure she has fans there, but nowhere the numbers, nor the commitment, that she would need to win them.

I asked what state you live in because I don't think you understand how intensely many people hate her there. I'm not talking about the general dislike for "libruls" or "yankees" that is prevalent, but an irrational, unjustified, visceral, but nonetheless real, hatred.

If she is the nominee, not only will she not carry the south, but she could well undo the progress that the Democrats have made there.

[jdlh8894]

82. 13 Stars (wonder why)

Mingle together(wonder why) Red,White,and Blue(wonder why)
I'm not going to attempt to understand why this battle flag is being used in this day and age to promote racism or Southerners are all the same.

[Carolina]

93. TOUCHE!!

It ain't gonna happen.

[zabet]

6. I hear a lot of

good support for Hillary in the Southeastern part
of NC where I live. This surprises me because the
area I live in is die hard republicans for the most
part. I have yet to see any negative Hillary propaganda
in the area other than what the local newspaper pulls
off of the AP wire, which is not near the amount I read
here on DU alone. :shrug:

[Dawgs]

25. Well, that is your experience.

Here's another example.

My wife came home the other day and told me how the CEO of her company posted an anti-Hillary email in their break room. Again, not anti-Biden, anti-Gore, anti-Kucinich, but anti-Hillary.

We are four months out from the primary elections, so this is only the beginning of what we'll see if she is nominated.

[zabet]

37. I am sure that there is plenty of it out there,

was just saying it was not everywhere in the South.

[Dawgs]

44. I'm sorry. I really wasn't disagreeing with you.

I should have chosen my words better. It's obvious that she does have some support in the South. It's just that I've never seen it.

[Mother Of Four]

81. I live in SE NC as well Jane...

My experience hasn't been like yours. I have many friends of all political leanings (I honestly don't feel party lines should be a barrier to friendship) We all agree never to try and press one of out favorites over another.

Most of them aren't bothered to vote for anything but the general election.

I have an "Open door policy" at my house...there is always coffee, baked goods..etc. People come and sit with me, just to talk.

With the fact that my husband is PD and I am EMS we have the opportunity to talk to a great many people. We never trash another's choice, just say things like "Hm...good point, I don't necessarily agree...what about this?"

I have only met ONE person, ONE since this whole early campaign fiasco began, state that they would vote for Hillary. We all support her in her choice and wouldn't think of trying to get her to change. I will say this though, she makes no bones about the fact that the ONLY reason she will vote for Hillary is because she's a woman.

In fact, the general consensus here is that even if they are die hard Dems...
They would rather vote for anyone other than Hillary R Clinton.


Some of the comments made to me: (Disclaimer, These things were said TO me...these are not things I have said myself)

"This isn't a Dynasty Nation...or a Monarchy. We need someone new."
"They've already been in the whitehouse 8 years, her running is unconstitutional."
"She may not have been president, but she may as well have been."
"I hate how smug she is, like she's always looking down her nose."
"I can't stand her laugh, I can just imagine a foreign leader asking her a question and her cackling like a old chicken."
"She talks so much double talk I get whiplash trying to follow her so called "Conversation"

I've had older folks tell me they feel sorry for Bill for being in a loveless marriage with a "Cast iron stone cold witch" and that he's stuck with her because divorce would be difficult with all the assets they have.

When I say older folks, I'm talking in their 50-60's

A great many of the posters here like to quote polls, and then in the same breath state that the media is biased.

Uhm...and who POSTS those polls for the most part? You honestly don't think that these polling companies aren't biased?

[zabet]

89. First off let me clarify

I am NOT a Hillary supporter. I would not
expect any one to have the same 'experience'
I have had discussing politics. I live in
a small area of a population of a max of 40,000
for the town and the outlying areas. I talk
politics with all age ranges and all parties.
The worst I have heard has been, ...
"'merica ain't quite ready fer a woman
president I think.."

[Mother Of Four]

103. I wasn't assuming you were Jane..

But thank you for clarifying.

I was just saying that in my area, near your own, that our experiences are different.


This coming election is going to be a doozy I'm afraid /sigh


(edited for spelling...for some reason I am totally nodding off today)

[terisan]

50. Her boss is obviously carrying out the Repub. Party hate aganda against Clinton and women.

I can understand if your wife is afraid to speak up against it but I don't think we, as Democrats, can allow ourselves to be cowed and win anything.

Max Cleland only partly lost because the Repubs Osama-ed him. I admire Max but he is proof that Republican-lite doesn't win anymore. He had tried to work with Bush on war and military issues and Bushed stabbed him in the back

The party in Ga has to be built from the ground up and is going to have to have a strong Afro-American and white Liberal foundation.

[burythehatchet]

7. The one right there on Piedmont corner of LIndberg?

I hate that schmuck.

[Dawgs]

17. No, Buford Highway and Pleasant Hill.

I didn't realize there was more than one.

[pocoloco]

8. I didn't realize Sean cared that much about America!

[skipos]

13. Hillary is my last choice for the 08 nomination but

None of our candidates NEED to "win the south."

Kerry's 252 electoral votes plus Ohio = Dem President.
Kerry's 252 electoral votes plus Florida = Dem President.
Kerry's 252 electoral votes plus Virgina and New Mexico = Dem President.

[Frances]

26. I definitely think it's possible for Hillary to win Kerry's

252 electoral votes plus 2 of the additional states listed above (Ohio, Virginia, New Mexico, Florida).

Ohio is sick of Republicans. the very popular Mark Warner will be on the Dem ticket in Virginia. New Mexico is definitely possible. Florida is possible.

I don't think Hillary will carry my native state of Alabama. But then I don't think any Democrat, including Edwards, can carry it.

In fact, I think that the deep South will go Repub no matter who the nominees are. The Dems should make an effort there, but the big focus should be on the other states.

[skipos]

29. Yep, any state that Wallace won isn't going to go Dem anytime soon

imo.

[Carrieyazel]

133. No, she couldn't win ANY of those states that you listed.

Hillary could NEVER win Virginia or Florida. Forget about that. She can't win New Mexico or Ohio either. Ohio is sick of Republicans, but Hillary is not what the doctor ordered. She'll be painted by the Repukes as just another establishment Democratic Senator who can't win. She'll do about as well as Kerry there, and no better.

She'll also have a hard time in the 3 closest states that Kerry won: Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and New Hampshire. She might scrape through in NH, but PA could very well go to Ghouliani and Wisconsin, which Kerry barely won, will be hard for Hillary. She'll easily get to 221 but Kerry's 252 is gonna take some doing. She's a terrible national candidate. She can win the base states but not much more.

[Evergreen Emerald]

14. So, you think we should just fold, and allow the neo-con radicals to choose our president?

The media has been part of the vast right-wing conspiracy in spewing constant attacks and lies against the Clintons--for years. Many have internalized the propaganda and believe it to be true. But, because the propaganda is working, is no reason to allow them to choose the democratic candidate.

Indeed: no matter who the candidate is--that machine will be working. Just look at Max Cleland and John Kerry. Do not fool yourself into thinking they will be any less harsh on any other candidate.

And really: Clinton's skeletons have been aired for years...old news.

[jefferson_dem]

15. So much for "the city too busy to hate."

Good people in Atlanta. :hi: It's outside the city proper that we have to worry about.

[itsrobert]

20. Exactly, Hillary is not electable

It's time for the Clinton kool-aid drinkers to realize the facts and get behind another candidate.

[terisan]

54. I think she is highly electable. nt

[Carrieyazel]

135. No, Hillary is NOT electable at all. She's a Senator after all.

She could maybe pick up 1 small battleground state that didn't go to Kerry. (And it isn't Ohio or Colorado, which she has no shot to win) And she'd have a hard time in Pennsylvania, N. Hamphshire and Wisconsin, the three closest Kerry states.

[Carrieyazel]

134. Absolutely. She isn't electable at all.

She can win the Dem lock states, (all of the states Kerry won except PA, WI and NH) And winning those three while definitely possible for her will take a lot of doing. So she's basically fighting like hell to get to Kerry's 252, and beyond that??? Maybe Iowa and that IS IT. That gets her to what, 260?????? She CANNOT win any other states. Hillaryland is in denial.

[YOY]

24. They want to"stop Hillary now" for all the wrong reasons

n/t

[MethuenProgressive]

28. Are you really going to let the GOP convince you to not support Clinton?

The only way the GOP can beat Clinton in 08 is with help from Democrats.
That's just math, my friends.

[Dawgs]

34. No, her electability is why I will not support her.

Well, also the fact that she trusted Bush, supports outsourcing, and refuses to answer questions. I also don't like how she cackles when she's asked a question she doesn't like.

[MethuenProgressive]

59. 'cackles' - there's no sexism in that comment?

[Dawgs]

75. No, there isn't. Cackles is a perfectly acceptable 'non-sexist' word to describe what she does.

It is defined as shrill laughter. That is how I see it, and that is how I'm going to describe it.

[OwnedByFerrets]

43. That is maddening for you to suggest that.....

I make up my own mind thank you and its NOT to support HER. The damn media (mostly right leaning) wants Hillary to be the nominee. In fact, they are frothing at the mouth for it because she is such an easy target to smear. So DO NOT tell me that I am letting the fucking repugs convince me of any fucking thing.:mad:

[MethuenProgressive]

61. So, you won't support her because it'll be too hard?

Interesting point of view.

[OwnedByFerrets]

70. No, and thanks for completely misconstruing my

words....I wont support her because I don't agree with to many of her policy stances. Sheesh.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

87. Dontcha love the Clinton supporters' guilt trip tactic?

Not a very effective persuasion tool if you ask me. :shrug:

[Zandor]

31. She can't win in the South, so let's nominate someone more liberal!

:sarcasm:

[Dawgs]

36. She's not only hated by people in the South.

[Zandor]

41. The upshot of your OP was her problems in the South

Yet most of her detractors say she's too moderate.

[Carrieyazel]

136. Very true. They're not too keen on her in the Mountain West either.

She can't win any of those states. Bank it. The closest she'll come is New Mexico where she'll lose by the same narrow margin as Kerry. We need someone who can and will win at least NM, CO and NV. We pick up those 3 and we don't need Ohio (which Hillary can't win either).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. How Many Southern States Did Al Gore Win?

The south is hostile territory for any Democrat...

The only southern states that will be in play with any candidate is FL and perhaps VA...

[Dawgs]

38. See response #36. It's not just about the South.

I was just using the South to point out how much she is disliked. This is where I live. I can't help that right now.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I'm An Empiricist

For all the hate, as of know, she's spanking the GOOPERS...

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm

[Frances]

40. I haven't seen any polls about Hillary in either Virginia or Florida,

but polls show the Democratic candidate for the Senate (the very popular former Governor Mark Warner) leading his possible Republican rivals.

Virginia has elected Democrats governor in the last two elections. Virginia also elected Webb over the incumbent Republican George Allen as Senator in 2006.

I think the fact that Hillary is a woman will hurt in Virginia, but I think she still has a chance there. Everyone is talking about how northern Virginia's population explosion is changing the nature of Virginia politics.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. In FL The Polls Have Rudy Beating HRC By One Or Two Points...

eom

[OwnedByFerrets]

48. One more than he actually got credit for....nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. We Know That

If everybody who intended to vote for Gore in FL (my homestate) had their vote counted Gore would have won by about 100,000 or so votes...

Sad...

[Frances]

90. Where do you live in Florida?

I grew up in Alabama just 2 hours from Pensacola, which, of course, is very Republican.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. I Live In Purple Central Florida

Which is really the battleground...

South Florida is mostly blue... North Florida is mostly red... Central Florida is purple...

[Frances]

108. Well, I hope your part turns blue!

[terisan]

39. I think winning without the south is possible and may be necessary to save the country.

I suspect Edwards has a better chance in the south but a major problem has been the abandonment by the national Democratic party.

Georgia is a complicated issue. The former Secretary of State, Cox, was a Democrat who purchased the infamous Diebold machines and then miraculously re-won her office by a huge margin in an election where a popular Georgia Democratic governor(Barnes) lost in an upset---even though all polls indicated he would win. (Supposedly voters went down the ticket-rejecting Barnes and then voting for Cox). Ralph Reed was head of the Republican party in Georgia that year. Cox later spoke out vociferously against paper trails (she lost her election last year to a Republican and I did't even bother to vote for Cox-the fight against the paper trail for ballots was just too obvious).

Right now white southerners tend to see the Republican party as the white party. However, with the large African-American population in southern states, and a significant white liberal population, I think the real problem has been media bias (fewer options here)+McAuliffe's abandonment of the south+no-tracking voting machines. I recently went to an Atlanta Democratic Party meeting where there were about 15 people.

I know that there was a Gainesville meeting where about 150 showed up-----why can't Atlanta get a turnout?

Right now the Republican governor is successfully requiring certain forms of id to vote----in order to decrease Democratic turnout.

I think Democrats in Georgia might do a lot better if they made an honest stand here.

[Dawgs]

47. I agree, but it would have to be the right candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

60. I'm Curious

Can you please tell me this mythical candidate that can sweep the south?

You can't get more down home than Bill Clinton and he won five in 96*

Tennessee N- Al Gore's home state

Arkansas - His own home state

Florida

Louisiana

West Virginia

*he also had Ross Perot in the race...I never bought the notion that "all" of Perot's votes came from Republicans and Republican leaners but I suspect 60% to 70% of them did...

[Dawgs]

64. Where did I suggest that ANY Democrat can sweep the South?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. What Democrat In The Race Stands Out As Being More Competitive Than His Or Her Peers In The South?

And what do you base this opinion on?

[Dawgs]

77. Anyone but Hillary. I base it on the fact they she is despised in the South.

Have you read my previous posts. I've given three or four examples of where I've seen this hatred. I haven't seen one display of dislike or hatred toward any other Democratic candidate.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. Anecdotal Evidence

How many southern states did John Edwards carry for John Kerry?

[Dawgs]

79. So, you're giving up on the South.

I'm only giving up if Hillary is nominated.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

84. I'm Giving Up On The South Except FL and VA And Maybe Just Maybe West Virginia

And unless there's a massive sea change in American politics I'll eat my monitor if any other southern state goes blue...

[DinahMoeHum]

55. . . .also known as "Whistling Past Dixie"

http://www.amazon.com/Whistling-Past-Dixie-Democrats-Without/dp/0743290151/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5653209-9002349?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190988955&sr=1-1

I would agree that the "Deep South" states (South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi and Alabama) are lost causes right now. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't rebuild the Democratic Party in those states as the DNC under Howard Dean is doing.

"Whistling Past Dixie" basically means winning everywhere else in the country - making our presence felt significantly in "red states" and even turning some of them "purple", as well as turning "purple" states "blue" and making "blue" states bluer. We do this by further gains in the US Senate, Congress, and the state legislatures - and by electing more Democrats to Secretaries of State posts to be our watchdogs against voting fraud.

I could go further, but hopefully you get my drift.

:kick::kick:

[Dawgs]

58. I agree. The last thing I want is for the Democrats to ignore the South.

My OP was to point out my experience in Atlanta. My biggest fear is that Hillary gets the nomination and hurts the momentum we are trying to keep.

Do we really want to take the risk of losing seats in Congress, or not gain more seats by nominating Hillary? I don't.

[Carrieyazel]

117. Absolutely. The south is out of play in 2008 for us in the pres. election.

We need to look elsewhere. Like out West. Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico. Florida is an outside long shot, (the only southern state that we have any hope in) but we need a fallback.

[cobalt1999]

52. Hillary, Obama, or Edwards win this election in a landslide

Any of the three are slam dunks. Stop fretting over the few crazies left out there supporting republicans and certainly don't let them influence your vote. You're giving them too much power.

[Dawgs]

56. "the few crazies"

Boy, you definitely don't live in the South. I still see 4-5 Bush/Cheney bumper stickers every day.

How many do you see?

[cobalt1999]

62. I live in the panhandle of Florida...pure bible belt

This area was full of Bush/Cheney supporters in 2004. Granted there are more than a few still left, but beyond the hardcore that will never vote for a democrat regardless of who it is, I've seen republican supporters become much more quiet or talking about being libertarians, or even voting democratic next time. Unthinkable a few years ago.

Besides, my point is, I won't let the republicans influence my pick, they have no power over my vote even in a reverse way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

63. Where In The Panhandle?

Actually Bill Nelson ran fairly well there...

[cobalt1999]

69. Fort Walton Beach.

It used to be a lonely place to be an democrat and atheist, but it's amazing how much turn around there has been in the last year. Friends that used to roll their eyes at me now nod in agreement.

[Fredda Weinberg]

68. They just need to stay home election day.

We've already done the heavy lifting - you see it yourself.

[cobalt1999]

73. The hardcore will always come out, but the average republican..

I think stays home or votes with us.

Bush has gutted the republican party for the next dozen years.

[Dawgs]

72. I agree. I'm not saying the Republicans should influence anyones vote.

But, if we have candidates that have a better chance of winning, for whatever reason, shouldn't we consider them first?

Understand, I'm not telling people that they should vote for a candidate based on electability. That's just how I feel. I want any Democrat to win in 2008, but I'm not going to support a candidate if I feel they have zero chance - and I feel Hillary has as close to zero chance as anyone I've ever seen.

Now, if the Hillary supporters can convince me that she is so great that I should take a chance on her then fine. I doubt they can, but if they do I will support her. As for now, I will work to get someone else elected. I will vote for Hillary in the general. As for now, that is all I will ever do for her.

[cobalt1999]

71. BTW...Go Gators!

I couldn't resist. :hi:

[Dawgs]

80. You guys better be ready this year.

We get a week off before the game; just like you have in the past.

It should be a good one.

Good luck this weekend, although I don't think you'll need it.

[cobalt1999]

83. I'm always worried about you Dawgs.

My first trip to Jacksonville was for the "Run, Lindsey, Run" game. The next trip was to watch Hercherl run all over my Gators 44-0. This is the year to catch us too. Young team, shakey defense.

Married to an Alabama grad, at least we'll both be cheering for Florida this weekend. :)

[Dawgs]

85. I was at the 97' game (one win of two over the last 15 years).

You guys are young, but so are we. Three of our starters on the offensive line are freshmen.

Are best chance might be against your inexperienced defense and suspect running game(minus Tebow of course).

:toast:

[NaturalHigh]

86. I'll promise you she can't win Oklahoma...

and I wouldn't vote for her if she could.

[Carolina]

88. I'm in SC

Same thing here! HRC will be an electoral LOSER.

[wyldwolf]

95. but she's flipping Ohio, Arkansas, possibly Virginia (with Mark Warner's help)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

97. Any Arkansas Polls

I'd like to see one..

[wyldwolf]

98. sure, here's a link

http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/aug/17/poll_hillary_way_ahead_of_rudy_and_thompson_in_arkansas

[Carrieyazel]

151. No, she could NEVER win Ohio. Rural Ohio will come out in droves against her.

Not to mention much of suburban and exurban Ohio. Ohio residents never give their electorals for candidates like Hillary in a general election. Ted Strickland is the kind of Dem that wins statewide in Ohio. Hillary won't even do as well as Kerry did in 2004.

[DAMANgoldberg]

115. also in SC

HRC has no chance, Obama has a better chance, especially in the Midlands and Pee Dee. No shot in York County or any other county in "Red Charlotte".

[Nedsdag]

99. The problem for Hillary is white southerners.

They simply will not vote for her. Period.

As much as Giuliani and Romney may have problems, they would vote for them over her in a heartbeat.

[ElizabethDC]

101. I'm a white southerner. I'm voting for her. n/t

[William769]

104. I am a white southern male, I'm voting for her.

Want to take your period back?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

109. White Soutthern Male Who Would Vote For Hillary

eom

[LittleClarkie]

105. I've seen that on a bumper too.

Not Obama, not Edwards. Hillary.

[THUNDER HANDS]

106. yeah, but does Ohio like her?

that's all that really matters.

Fuck the South, we need Ohio to win.

[Carrieyazel]

152. Of course not, Hillary could NEVER win Ohio.

Rural Ohio does not like her and will come out in droves against her. Ohio likes personable, non-polarizing candidates. That isn't Hillary. She'd even have problems in nearby Pennsylvania (which Kerry won). It isn't going to happen.

[SaveElmer]

107. The Dawgs standard reply...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ginchinchili]

110. Hillary CAN NOT WIN in the South

That's really not up for debate. I live in Mississippi. Believe me, you'd might as well spend election day mowing the lawn rather than waste your time voting for Hillary.

[Carrieyazel]

118. You're absolutely right. She can't win any southern states.

Not even her former home state of Arkansas.

[ncteechur]

131. She will win Virginia. She can win Florida.

I think there may be several states she can win.

[ileus]

111. She won't lose a state...maybe Alaska but I doubt it. n/t

[ginchinchili]

113. You're delusional.

[calteacherguy]

112. Is this the thread about why she's 19 points ahead of Edwards in North Carolina?

Oh, wrong thread.

My bad.

[HughMoran]

114. We all have seen the "obvious" anti-Hillary stuff over and over again

...really, what else new are you pointing out here?

[Carrieyazel]

116. And if In Sanity can help us stop her now he could actually end up helping us.

Because it would mean that we could nominate a candidate that could actually win the general election and we wouldn't be stuck with Hillary.

[fightindonkey]

121. That's Why Hillary Is Leading, Please, Give Me A Break

They can scream all they want. They are scared shitless of her because they know she will win. Let them scream their little heads off. No one is listening.

[AtomicKitten]

123. Hillary is a familiar target and thus the GOP cornerstone of opposition.

Of course the GOP will be ugly to any of our nominees, but they have warehouses (literally and figuratively) of ammunition already in stock to lob at Hillary.

Hatred for all things Clinton will fuel the opposition and rally their base, and that means bringing out their voters en masse to defeat what has been set up for years to be evil incarnate.

I dread a 1990s Clinton hate-festival redux election. I've had enough.

[Carrieyazel]

125. Exactly. They still hate her, even when she votes their way.

She just can't win for losing.

[Major Hogwash]

129. Well, at the 2004 GOP convention, they wore "purple heart" bandaids to make fun of Kerry.

I wouldn't put it past them to wear Monica masks at the 2008 convention to remind voters of why they wanted to impeach Bill Clinton.

Or they'll wear blue dresses with cottage cheese stains on the front.

They're dispicable, they'll do anything to trash our candidates.

[superkia]

130. I think people want a REAL change in our government, one that...

will give the American people their voice back. At that Republican debate where their front runners didn't show up, it was said that the crowd was in love with Ron Paul of all people. I think its because people want honest and truth back in politics and someone that is speaking their words for them. This is why I think that Dennis Kucinich with national coverage like the democratic front runners, would be a fresh view of politics, where the candidate is speaking for the people and not dodging the issues or giving no direct answers. I think Obama does a pretty good job at it for being a front runner, he seems like he is speaking with integrity.

I support Kucinch but would still gladly have Obabm leading our country.

[illinoisprogressive]

132. You have to figure there were alot of democrats and indies in that crowd.

[Dan]

137. OK, if HRC wins the Democratic position as our candidate

then, if they "south, whatever" don't want her, then vote for the GOP candidate.

If they liked Bush - vote for the GOP; If they hate HRC - vote for the GOP; besides another four years of a GOP presidency would result in a redefining of the nation anyway. Another GOP president, and we would probably have death camps for those that could read. War with IRAN and every other nation state that had some natural resource that we desired; I suspect, in all honesty, that if the next president is a Repug, we will be in an World War. There is something evil about the GOP.

So, doesn't matter who the Democratic candidate is....the choice is binary.

[Yukari Yakumo]

138. Uh huh...

Here's the problem with your logic.

Across the South HRC polls above every other candidate. What makes you think Southerners will flock to a black man or a pretty boy any more than Hillary?

In short, even if Hillary can't win the South, the other guys stand even less of a chance of winning the South as well.

All this is, is the yet another anti-Hill scare tactic with no real evidence to back it up.

[Greyhound]

139. I posted this in a different thread...

"...there is the undeniable fact that many GOP voters that are currently demoralized and disheartened, would crawl out of their death beds, across hot tar and burning coals, just to vote against her."

People seem to be in denial about just how intense, how visceral, the hatred toward her is in large parts of the nation. Even if she wins the election, the rest of the party will pay for her ambition.

[Dan]

146. So, are you implying

that the Democrats should dictate their party choice by the 'wants' of the GOP? We must find an acceptable candidate based on whether or not that person would mobilize the GOP base?

Better to lose being true to one's self then win being what you are not.

After that, what next, what if Bubba decides to reintroduce slavery - then we should accommodate that with maybe accepting indentured servitude?

Somewhere I read that the southern states in general terms are the least educated; engage in the most abusive relationships; have the most dysfunctional you name it than the rest of the nation - and this body we should allow to determine the direction of the nation?

Actually, Bush is a good example of the Bubba mindset. And for seven years we have been allowing a moron to lead this nation - and for what - so that the GOP base feels goods? Because those that know better have decided that they do not want to offend Bubba? Our Democratic leadership and those that believe that we should not offend Bubba - are true examples of Profiles in Courage.

Ultimately, fuck Bubba.

[Greyhound]

147. Not at all, and for someone that has been here as long as you have,

you should know it.

The problem with "fuck Bubba" is that it is "Bubba" that has, and given a HRC nomination, will continue to fuck the rest of us.

Personally, I think the Civil War was a mistake, we should have just let them go, they would have destroyed themselves and come begging to re-join the Union in one or two generations having learned a valuable lesson. But, what is done is done, and for over 140 years we have had to drag them, kicking and screaming, every single step of the way.

Nothing has really changed, but we do have an opportunity to make some real changes by capitalizing on the modest gains we made, in spite of continuing election fraud. Even with a victory, HRC will be utterly ineffective in implementing any change as she is the embodiment of the fundamental problem.

[Dan]

148. this fundamental problem

is that she is hated?

and of course Bubba is going to continue being a disruptive force and obstruction to positive change - it has worked. But that is no reason, no reason at all to accept it. Sort of like dealing with a bully, you gotta fight back.

I of course disagree with your view on the Civil War - and letting the south become their own separate nation state, with the idea that two or three generations later, they would request re admittance to the Union. You note of course this view point of acceptance of the status quo during that periods totally ignores the state of a people in a terrible situation. For those that believe that slavery was not a bad state - then please refer me to any literature where Whites fought to be slaves. No, the Civil war was fought for several reasons (Slavery, States' rights, Industrial versus agricultural, world views, a clarification on federal rights, southern pride and sadly some would say northern arrogance), and we continue to fight (on a different level) with the south for some of those reasons; The war didn't end with the surrender by Lee - it was just redefined.

In some ways, (in my opinion) it doesn't matter if HRC is nominated; any person that doesn't fit a (again in general terms) narrow definition of someone acceptable - is going to mobilize that base. Come on, I was raised in the south, if the young senator from Illinois is nominated - I can assure you, the dead with vote against him in the south. And, you will hear commentary on race that you would have thought disappeared over fifty years ago.

HRC is not the problem....Bubba is the problem. Bubba needs to grow and accept the 21st century, and if we choose to accept Bubba's world view - then we enabling a fool.

Finally, Bubba is going to "fuck with the rest of us" as long as Bubba is not in charge. My two cents worth... ;)

[Greyhound]

150. I'd love to have a discussion on the causes and merits of the Civil Was, really.

But it is beside the point of this thread.

Perhaps Barak would be as good a motivating factor for the "bubbas", but I'm not sure, after all, he is "such a nice young man", and he would pass the paper bag test.

I do know for certain, that HRC absolutely will motivate them like nothing else I can imagine.

Bubba is a real problem, but he's very sad right now and not really in a fighting mood, I think it is better to keep it that way, especially since President Clinton II would not be significantly different from any of the corporate shills from the other side.

Now before you bring up the SCOTUS nominations, yes they are extremely important and that is yet another reason for her not to get the nomination. If she does manage to win, it is very likely that she will face a Republic Senate that has to approve those nominations. Once again, if she's the nominee, Bubba will damn sure take back the modest gains we have made in his territory. Even assuming that she would want to make really good nominations (an assumption I wouldn't bet on in light of her history), what do you think a firmly Republic Senate will let her have?

She just isn't worth the risk or the price.

[Alamom]

144. Current Status of the Primary Polls, State-by-State (9-28-07) - Aya Reiko

Posted by Aya Reiko

Current Status of the Primary Polls, State-by-State (9-28-07)


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3559911&mesg_id=3559911



Thanks again AR. All that green is beautiful......

[Moloch]

149. I'm a white male from

Virginia, a state that shows Clinton with a slight lead. Arkansas shows a significant lead.