The Hillary Hater's "Adrian" Problem

[DemocratSinceBirth]

Let me preface my remarks by saying I will proudly support any of our Democratic nominees should they get their party's nomination for president...

If you dislike Hillary Clinton that is your right but it doessn't strengthen your case against her to spread the meme she can't win... The Hillary Haters remind me of Adrian in Rocky IV when she tells Rocky who is about to fight the big Russian, Ivan Drago, "you can't win"...What did Rocky do? He opened a can of whoop ass on the big Russian...

There might be a lot of problems with a Hillary candidacy or presidency but as of now she's kicking GOOPER ass:


http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm

[William769]

1. Thats what it boils down to.

You can say it all you want, but Bush is proof positive, if you say it enough times it must be true. NOT!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. It Is What It Is

Things can change...But right now she's doing very well against her likely Republican opponents...

[physioex]

3. Kicking GOOPER ass??...wtf

Well it takes one to know one. And if she does win the candidacy I will gladly stay home come election time.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. That's Your Right

I like kicking GOOPER ass... Don't you?

[William769]

5. Apparently he doesn't.

[physioex]

6. Ofcourse I like kicking GOOPER ass...

I am a liberal. I am hope we can agree to disagree on Hillary in friendly terms. :)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Sure

The purpose of my post was to repudiate the meme she can't win...Nothing more...Nothing less... Right now I don't have the time nor inclination to get in a substantive policy debate about any of our fine candidates... They are better than a GOOPER...


:pals:

[emilyg]

53. vote for Rudy.

[physioex]

60. WTF???

Where did that come from? No, I am not voting for Ghouliani and his fake phones calls from his wife.

[iconocrastic]

58. Clinton backers won't admit (publicly) that there are REASONS why people hate Hillary

So thy call them "Hillary Haters".

As if that were a valid line of attack.

Rhetoric reflecting the mentality of their candidate, Hillary.

Not surprising.

[movonne]

7. My problem with hillary is far more serious and I cannot forgive

her for this Lieberman-kyl amdendment..I think she wants to go to war with Iran or she would not jump on the Lieberman side of the fence..we all know that is what Lieberman is itching for..and I don't think being ahead in the polls is reason enough for me to jump on her bandwagon..

[physioex]

9. That's right....

Hillary is a centrist/quasi-neocon. I am not sure why the right demonizes her so much. Cause she never wuz a true liberal.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I Have Given This A Lot Of Thought

There are probably quite a few DUers who want more "change" than me but I assure you I still want more "change" than we're going to get, regardless of who gets elected, given the confines of our political system...

That's why I can't get overly worked up over these internecine battles...

[movonne]

19. You think the war with Iran is not worth worring about??

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. I Don't Think I Said Or Implied That

IMHO, our nominee is going to be Obama, Edwards, or Clinton and I don't see much light between their positions on Iraq.

[physioex]

21. Partially true....

Edwards and Hillary did vote for the war with Iraq. Obama was not in the Senate but says he would have been opposed.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. But None Of Them Would Promise To Get Them Out By The End Of Their First Term

Don't shoot me... I'm the messenger...

[William769]

14. Can you say oxymoron statement?

[physioex]

16. Explain the Oxymoron? EOM

[William769]

17. "I am not sure why the right demonizes her so much. Cause she never wuz a true liberal." NT

[BootinUp]

23. consider reviewing her actual record.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3562522

http://www.issues2000.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. That's Fine, Pardner

See Post Eight



William769 will engage you in a policy debate...

BTW, I think most of our candidates could beat the GOOPERS too..



:pals:

[BootinUp]

25. I think you have seen

my rebuttals to the complaints about that vote. Anyways, there is another thread here if you want to jump back into the debate.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3562788

[Evergreen Emerald]

27. what it the language of the amendment that you hate so much?

What do you think it represents?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x310828

[EFerrari]

11. It's "haters'" and "Adrienne". n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. No-Adrian

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0089927/quotes

I have seen all six Rocky movies...I can even rememember where I saw each one... I almost feel as if I know him and he's a kindred soul...

[EFerrari]

15. Then they have it wrong. Adrian is the masculine spelling

and I'm so glad you found a soulmate. :eyes:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

18. Not A Soulmate

And it's presumptuous of anybody to tell anybody how to spell their name or to tell a writer how to spell one of his character's names...

Now that we disposed of that is there anything substantive you have to say...


:P

[sandnsea]

22. Hillary is like a bad Rocky sequel?

Is that what you're saying? I never thought of it that way, but that's a good analagy, come to think of it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

28. I Liked All The Rockys Except Rocky V

It was painful to see him broken up that way... I'm glad Rocky VI (Rocky Balboa) came out so he could go out his way.

Here's a clip:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1tXhJniSEc

[JNelson6563]

26. Ok, I'm confused

At one point you seem almost respectful toward those who have legitimate issues with Sen. Clinton and then, a bit later, all are labeled as "haters" and likened to a lame character in a crappy movie.

Do you have a dog named "Stay"? "Here Stay! Come here Stay!"

Oy.

Julie--rolling my eyes as hard as I can

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. If You Have Issues With Ms. Clinton That Is Your Right

Maybe the term "hater" is too strong but if you read the posts at this site there are certainly some whose words could be construed as hateful.

And I respectfully disagree with you that the Rocky movies were crappy... It's subjective... One man's velvet Elvis is another man's Monet...

DSB

[JNelson6563]

40. Perhaps broad brush strokes aren't fitting then

Just throwing that out there.

Julie

[DemocratSinceBirth]

61. What Broad Brush Strokes...

There are Hillary Haters... Bush Haters...Kobe Bryant Haters... Even Michael Jordan Haters...
I just believe that folks who hate her and then say she can't win are advancing, imho, a false premise...

I carefully confined my argument to electability and nothing else...Folks implied she was a loser...Most rational folks when they call somebody a loser usually base their observation on the fact that a person lost a lot in the past... The Clintons' have ran ten national and state campaigns and won nine...Bill Clinton is the first Democrat to win re-election in his own right since Franklin Roosevelt...They are adroit and tenacious competitors who love the game...


I really try to make these discussions about the topic and not me...I'm just not that grandiose...

[depakid]

30. The irony is that she can't win precisely because so many people hate her

Worse than that- she'll draw all those people on the far right to the polls (who might otherwise be demoralized) while at the same time demoralizing the Democratic base.

Negative coattails- which bodes poorly for state and local candidates and initiatives.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

31. You're Entitled To Your Opinion

I will form my opinion based on a careful review of the survey data and the opinions of those who are authoritative in the field in which I am forming an opinion on.

Thank you.

DSB

[depakid]

33. Just bearing in mind lessons gleaned from history

and many years of experience.

But, be my guest- listen to the consultants and blindly follow cheap media polls.

They've had an exceptional track record these past 14 years or so.....

:sarcasm:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. I Have Never Picked A Loser In Nearly Thirty Years Of Picking

My record as a prognosticator in sports and politics is impeccable because I root with my heart and pick with my head.


:P

[Dawgs]

51. People "Hate Hillary" is a fact, not an opinion.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. Yes .But The Inference She Will Lose Because Some Folks Hate Her Is An Opinion

And In My Opinion A Specious One...

[FlaxieB]

32. True, Rocky beat the Russian, but the Russian damaged Rocky physically and mentally.

Rocky was not the same after that fight and he never fully recovered. He became a has-been. Hillary is already a has-been. Has-been in the White House and she and Bill need not go back. We need new blood in the White House, a fresh start, not a re thread of old ideas and "business as usual" politics.:thumbsdown:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Not A Hasbeen

He kicked Tommy Morrison 's (Tommy Gun) ass in Rocky V and fought Antonio Tarver (Dixon Mason )to a split decision when he was nearly sixty years old in Rocky VI (Rocky Balboa)...

[FlaxieB]

36. As I said before, a has-been.

Fighting nobody's and what did it gain? Momentary pride? A little fleeting respect? Absolutely nothing. We currently have that son of a bitch in the White House. We don't need another punch drunk returning occupant for Prez.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Much More Than Pride

Rocky Balboa demonstrated the indomitability of the human spirit; where there's a will there's a way...

"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."


-Mark Twain*



Wow... I just learned that...I thought it was the writing of John Singleton from "Hustle And Flow"
I love the movies...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. Please Don't Compare George Bush* To Rocky Balboa

George Bush* is not worth a fine hair on Rocky Balboa's ass...

[iconocrastic]

59. Um, it was a movie, but you're right about Hiillary as a has-been that never was. nt

[MadHound]

39. The fact that you're making this statement, and believing these polls

This far out from the general election only goes to show me you have very little experience in politics, haven't studied political history, and have utterly no clue a to what you're talking about.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. I Did Post Graduate Work In Government At FSU

I graduated cum laude from the University Of Central Florida. The fact that you would make an ad hominem attack on me reveals more about you than it could ever reveal about me.

Kisses,

DSB

edited for typographical error

[MadHound]

45. Gee, all that sheepskin, and you still have this disconnect. Astounding.

Look at your history instead of the degrees on your wall. Muskie was the overwhelming sure Democratic thing in '72. Yet he didn't get the nod. Howard Dean was looking like a machine in '04 until the scream. History is replete with these sorts of incidents, and the fact that you're already calling not just the nomination, but the entire election this far out only goes to show how little you truly know, despite all of the degrees on your wall(PS, I've plenty of sheepskin myself, and work around lots of academics. It isn't the degrees that mark intelligence, but the ability for the person to think logically, clearly and have acquired a large store of true knowledge. Some of the smartest people I've met haven't gone to college, contrariwise some of the dumbest people I've met had multiple doctorates on their wall. Make of that what you will).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. I Realize That Polls Are Mere Snapshots

My post was a response to the meme that Hilary Clinton just can't win... I think the Clintons' have more "political chops" than just about any couple of politicians in our generation...

She's doing well in the polls now... I realize that history is replete with front runners stumbling; Muskie in 72, Hart in 88, Dean in 04...But you can argue all three of those gentlemen self destructed... I don't see Hillary as the self destructive type...And in Dean's case his Iowa loss after leading so long was as damaging as "the scream"...

I digress...

My post was a light hearted response to the meme "she can't win"... I am sorry it morphed into a discussion of my political acumen, the quality of the "Rocky" series, the quality of the analogy, and whether the fictional Rocky was a loser or winner.

PEACE

DSB

[ginchinchili]

41. LOL....so now we're comparing Hillary to Rocky ( except much richer)

Of course you used this silly analogy in another post. I guess you've impressed yourself with it. It wasn't very effective then and it's not now.

I'm also amused by the fact that, on another thread, you referred to my statement that Hillary can't win in the general election as "aberrant nonsense." We established that aberrant means atypical, out of the norm, something that breaks the pattern. Yet here you have an entire post directed at all of us who hold this aberrant belief. I believe you've just contradicted yourself, because if several people--and I think it's fair to say there are a few million of us in a country of 300 million--believe that Hillary can't win a general election, it can't be aberrant. How did you put it? Oh yeah, Game...Set...Match! Silly boy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. I suspect roughly a sizable minority believe she can't win.

That had nothing to do with the use of the word "aberrant" in the context of which it was employed. But I give you an E for Effort...

[ginchinchili]

44. No problem. We all misuse words from time to time.

It's just something I remember long ago from high school, that plugging in words you think will impress people detracts from your point, especially when misused. I wouldn't bother if I hadn't seen several posts of yours that are obnoxiously insulting to myself and others. There seem to be many like yourself who can't accept the fact that many of us feel that, on top of her not being the best qualified candidate in this race, Hillary can't win in a general election, or at least it's a gamble not worth the risk. Many of us have stated it and we'll state it again, so get over it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. Oh My

"Obnoxiously insulting."- Oh my...

At the risk of being hoisted on my own petard I'd like to see where I have been obnoxiously insulting to another poster unless he or she insulted me first...Sorry... I'm just not the pacific type...

And "aberrant" was correct in the context I used it.

I don't blame you for wanting to make this discussion, this argument, this tete-a-tete about me when your candidate is running behind the margin of error in most published polls... But keep telling us that Senator Biden is the inevitable winner who will heal the wounds of this nation and bring us all together in the absence of even a scintilla of evidence...

[mrreowwr_kittty]

48. Yeah, Rocky sure did whup Ivan Drago's

Only problem with your analogy is that the whole thing happened in a MOVIE.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

49. I'll Give You A Real Life Story

Muhammad Ali was in his dressing room getting ready to fight the heretofore invincible George Foreman... Many people felt with the age and strength difference Ali would get "killed"... His alter ego ,Budini Brown, was so afraid his best friend and idol would get seriously hurt and embarrassed that he started to cry... Muhammad Ali slapped him to bring him to his senses... Muhammad Ali then went out and pulled off one of the biggest upsets in heavyweight history.

Is that better?

I guess you will tell me Hillary Clinton isn't Muhammad Ali...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

50. duplicate

...

[illinoisprogressive]

54. Of course she can;t win. She is so disliked she can't get enough people to vote for her.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

55. Then You Woke Up

eom

[FredScuttle]

56. Wait a minute....does this mean

that Paulie got a blowjob from Monica Lewinsky?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. I Hope Not For Monicas's Sake

eom

[AZBlue]

62. Let me explain this poll to you: it simply shows that a Dem candidate is preferred.

Nice try at spinning this, but it's B.S. to say this proves HRC is kicking anyone's butt.

1) Looking at the most recent dates for each poll, with the exception of 20 times, the Dem is preferred over the Rep. Whenever the question was posed simply based upon party, the Dems win every time. (Interestingly, of the 20 times the Rep won, HRC is the Dem option in 6 of those times, Edwards and Obama each 4 times, and Richardson 3 times, with three instances of a tie).
2) There is an inherent problem with polls like this - how can you measure a person's true choice if you don't give them all their true options?
3) There's also an inherent problem with polls. Most sample groups are not representative of the general public. There's bias that comes from the organization conducting the poll. And, phone surveys, which most if not all of these are, reach only a certain population - those who would be most likely to be home between 7 and 9 pm (ie, those with young children).

This poll proves nothing other than the fact that polls are pretty worthless.