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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 10:26 PM
Original message
FOLLOWING SHIITE VP's SUPPORT KURDISH LEADER WELCOMES BIDEN AMENDMENT
Following Shiite VP’s support, Kurdish leader welcomes Biden-Brownback-Boxer amendment
Sep 29th, 2007 by babylonians
September 28, 2007

Iraq’s Kurdistan region welcomed the recent Senate resolution in regard to federalism in Iraq, underlining that this is the only solution for the Iraqi cause.

“People and government of Kurdistan welcome the U.S. Senate to divide Iraq on federal basis,” the Kurdistan’s presidency, headed by Masoud Barazani, said in a statement received by the independent news agency Voices of Iraq (VOI).

The Senate, at a late hour on Wednesday, approved, with 75 votes for and 23 against, a “non-binding” draft resolution envisaging the division of Iraq into three Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni entities, with a federal government in Baghdad undertaking border security and oil proceed management.

Initiators of the draft said it was “the only solution” to halt violence sweeping the country.

“The federalism does not mean division, but voluntary unity and this is the only solution for the Iraqi cause,” the Kurdish statement also said. “Federalism will guarantee security, democracy and freedom,” it affirmed.

Source: Voices of Iraq

http://babylonians.wordpress.com/
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Simply Astounding
When thats exactly what the Iraqis wanted in the first place. bush cheney would not let it happen. Takes a great man in Biden to get logic in on the problem.

Just another reason to want him in the WH!
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That's what the IRAQIS wanted in the first place? I don't think so.
The Kurds do because they walk away with the rich Kirkuk oil fields.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3011028
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. But it's the only reasonable way out.
There is nothing anyone can offer that all Iraqis will agree on, whether it comes from us or Iraq. But there are many important Iraqis that will support this because it's better than what is being forced on them now and it creates more room for a diverse way of governing a diverse population. We have to give them enough of a framework to be able to hammer out. They don't have that now. Kirkuk's oil fields are not necessarily a deal breaker because part of the Biden plan is to share revenues. If the Kurds want autonomy, and they so desperately do, they will have to compromise. They don't have to give up all of the revenues; just a portion, and they will be eligible for revenues from oil in other parts of Iraq as well. It's revenue sharing. The Sunnis know that we will be leaving soon. They either sign on or their hope vanishes. The Shiites want autonomy as well. But they can't even agree how to govern amongst themselves much less agree on a strong centralized governing system. They give up some things--and really not that much--and win autonomy.

Look, any plan dealing with Iraq will necessarily have lots of holes, big holes. Biden is very up front about this. He's not promising a quick and happy solution. It's going to be messy and it's going to get real ugly. He's honest about this. That's so damn rare in this day and so damn refreshing. Honesty. But it's the closest thing to an implementable plan that anyone has stepped up and offered.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. There will never be peace in Iraq if they don't share the oil revenues -
and I am hoping - and praying - that the UN will oversee that, because it's sure not going to be anyone in this administration.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Yeah, Cheney will put Halliburton in charge.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. Well the Vice President is an agreement with it and he's a Shiite- NOT a Kurd
Thank you for the link to the article. Let's see what it says:

The source you provided cites Moqtada al-Sadr, a radical Shiite cleric who commands the largest single bloc in parliament and boasts a powerful militia known as the Mahdi Army, as condemning the plan.

Can't understand why a RADICAL SHIITE CLERIC who COMMANDS THE LAREST SINGLE BLOC IN PARLIAMENT and BOASTS A POWERFUL MILITIA would be against such a plan, can you? Surely, being a holy man and all, he wouldn't be concerned about losing his power, could he? And this certainly couldn't be compared to the Christian Right in this country who want things run their way and their way only, could it?

Also joining in the condemnation is the Ulema Council -- also known as the Committee of Muslim Scholars. Here's a quote from the Council:
"This division is "one of the main objectives of American occupation," the council said, calling on Iraqis to reject it. "

Well that's just not accurate, is it? The "division" (misnomer) was not one of the main objectives of Bush's plan (the occupation) was it? In fact the Bush folks were in opposition of the plan. So with all due respect the Council is a little confused on that part.

From the SAME ARTICLE your link showcases, this is what's said of the Kurdish support:

The only place where the splitting of Iraq was popular was in the Kurdish region in the north which already enjoys a large degree of autonomy and relative stability.

"The people and government of the Kurdistan region welcome the adoption of the US Senate resolution calling for the rebuilding of the Iraqi state on the basis of federalism," a statement from the regional government said.

"A federal arrangement for the Iraqi state does not mean division, but rather voluntary union. It is the only viable solution to the problems of Iraq.

Try as I might, I see no reference to the Kurds swimming in oil. And with the Kurds stating that it is welcoming the federalism, that indicates they are willing to share their oil revenue with the rest of their country. The plan calls for the Federal Government (Iraq's) to oversee equitable distribution of oil revenue. Even if the DID want to bogart their oil, if the plan is implement as suggested, they don't get to hog all the profits.

The article also states:
No outside country or entity has any right to take control of Iraq, its resources or its governance

First of all, Biden's plan is not to TAKE CONTROL OF IRAQ -- that was Bush's plan, if you recall. Biden's plan hopes to facilitate the Iraqi people in their efforts to restore their country.

The plan does not propose CARVING UP THE COUNTRY. Think Canada, for example. There will be no Checkpoint Charlie between areas.

Did you even visit the site I linked to? Did you even read the article I posted? A simple yes or no will suffice.

There are bound to be differences of opinion and interpretations of this as there are in every issue. Did you even acknowledge and listen to the other side? I did, and I'm still of the belief this is the best solution we have available to us at this time.

Here's the link to the article you provided: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/302931/1/.html






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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
14. I'm still waiting to dialogue with acmavm. Wonder where s/he is? nt
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #14
31. Right here. It's so disgusting that the same old tired shit that was floated
originally by the neocons suddenly gains 'respectability' because it comes out of the mouth of a democrat. This plan is absolutely a loser. If you don't think that its the perfect way to draw the region into more chaos, death, and destruction then I don't know what's wrong with you.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=7§ion=0&article=101862&d=29&m=9&y=2007

Editorial: Carving Up Iraq
29 September 2007

The US Senate motion Thursday that Iraq be divided into three “federal” units for Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds gives practical shape to the principle of divide and rule, enshrined in the neocon “Project for the New American Century” that has underpinned everything that the Bush White House has done since the 9/11 attacks gave it the excuse to attack first Afghanistan and then Iraq.

<snip>

And leave it to the Democrats in the Senate to indulge the idea that America has any right to divvy up Iraq in the first place. This crass violation of the sovereignty of a country was put forward by leading Democrat Joe Biden, whose party is busy trying to figure out how to distance itself from a war that has become unpopular with American voters while at the same time maintaining a hawkish stance toward the global war on terror. Good luck.

<snip>

From an Iraqi point of view, division is anathema. Leaving aside the outrageous proposition that the future of Iraq should be decided in the US Congress and not by Iraqis, partition would tear apart the many mixed communities that still live together in harmony and take pride first and foremost in being Iraqis, not Shiites, Sunnis or Kurds. A partitioned Iraq would draw front lines along which hothead radicals from each community, often manipulated by cynical politicians, could confront each other sure that their rears was secure. Divided, no Iraqi community could resist outside interference. And no doubt Washington would underwrite the autonomy of each “statelet”, giving it the right to interfere as and whenever it wished just as it has done with the Palestinian elections.

Is it any wonder the Arab world finds an arrogant Senate vote on the destiny of Iraq unacceptable and utterly contemptible?

-MORE- Go read two paragraphs I took out. Wanted more than that article? Well, here's one that tells you what the people in that part of the world think about all this.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This bad idea has been around for a long time...

Nov 27, 2003

Iraq: Three from one doesn't add up
By Nir Rosen

Iraq is "artificially and fatefully made whole from three distinct ethnic and sectarian communities", says Leslie Gelb in his November 25 New York Time article. Gelb - a former editor and columnist for the Times and president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations - advocates dismembering Iraq into three parts, a Kurdish north, a Sunni center and a Shi'ite south, in what he calls the "Three State Solution".

<snip>

Gelb believes that chopping Iraq up would "allow America to put most of its money and troops where they would do the most good quickly - with the Kurds and Shi'ites". This would force the "troublesome and domineering Sunnis, without oil or revenues, to moderate their ambitions or suffer the consequences". International law prohibits an occupying power from altering the structure of the occupied country, let alone dividing it up. This perhaps is not a good argument because international law was ignored throughout this conflict and continues to be flouted as the occupying powers impose their economic philosophies on Iraq.

<snip>

It is wrong to speak of an artificial "Sunni triangle". Iraqis do not divide their country into religious regions like this. It is also wrong to say that Sunnis dominated Iraq under Saddam. More accurate would be to say that members of Saddam's extended tribe, or of his hometown, dominated Iraq, to the exclusion of everyone else. Many Sunnis in the so called Sunni triangle resent the undue importance Saddam gave to Tikritis, for example. Iraq's Sunnis and Shi'ites are related by common history and often common tribal relations, since Iraq only became a majority Shi'ite state after Sunni tribes converted to Shi'itism in the 18th century. Even the most extreme Iraqi Shi'ites are Iraqi nationalists and view Iran with suspicion. Iraqi Shi'ites believe their country is the rightful leader of the Shi'ite world, since Shi'itism began in Iraq, most sacred Shi'ite sites are in Iraq and the Hawza, or the Shi'ite clerical academy of Najaf, thought dominated by Shi'ites until recently. Iran is a rival for them. Iraqi nationalism and unity were proven when all members of the IGC unanimously rejected the American proposal to introduce Turkish peacekeepers into the country.

<snip>

Kurdish leaders from all political parties have called for inclusion in the new Iraq, and while many may dream of an eventual Kurdish state, all recognize that it is quixotic at this juncture. There is only a light American presence in Kurdistan anyway, and it is not the reason troops are meeting resistance elsewhere. A Kurdistan without US troops is the greatest fear of most Kurds today who live under the ominous shadow of their Turkish, Iranian, and even Syrian neighbors. There is no clear border for Kurdistan. Kurds covet Mosul and Kirkuk, where many Arabs, Assyrians and Turkmen would violently oppose secession.

-MORE-
Do you think you or Joe knows better than the people in that region what will work? Isn't that how we got where we are today?? But hell, go ahead and float some tired old unworkable idea and call it a plan. Fan the fires of this mess and call it a solution.
_________________________________________________________________________
Mar 9, 2006

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HC09Ak01.html

Blaming the victims as Iraq disintegrates
By Stephen Zunes

The sectarian violence which has swept across Iraq following last month's terrorist bombing of the Shi'ite Golden Mosque in Samarra is yet another example of the tragic consequences of the US invasion and occupation of Iraq. Until the 2003 US invasion and occupation, Iraq had maintained a longstanding history of secularism and a strong national identity among its Arab population despite its sectarian differences.

Not only has the United States failed to bring a functional democracy to Iraq, neither US forces nor the US-backed Iraqi government in Baghdad have been able to provide the Iraqi peoplewith basic security. This has led many ordinary citizens to turn to extremist sectarian groups for protection, further undermining the Bush administration's insistence that US forces must remain in Iraq in order to prevent a civil war.

Top analysts in the Central Intelligence Agency and State Department, as well as large numbers of Middle East experts, warned that a US invasion of Iraq could result in a violent ethnic and sectarian conflict. Even some of the war's intellectual architects acknowledged as much: in a 1997 paper, prior to becoming major figures in the Bush foreign policy team, David Wurmser, Richard Perle and Douglas Feith predicted that a post-Saddam Iraq would likely be "ripped apart" by sectarianism and other cleavages but called on the US to "expedite" such a collapse anyway.

<snip>

Still, there is little question that actions by US occupation troops over the past three years - such as the torture of detainees, the hair-trigger response at checkpoints, the liberal use of force in heavily-populated civilian neighborhoods and the targeted assassinations of suspected insurgent leaders - have contributed to the climate of impunity exhibited by forces of the Iraqi government.

<snip>

Even the young firebrand Shi'ite cleric Muqtada emphasized to his followers, "It was not the Sunnis who attacked the shrine ... but rather the occupation and Ba'athists." He called on his followers not to attack Sunni mosques and ordered his Mehdi Army to "protect both Shi'ite and Sunni shrines". He went on to say, "My message to the Iraqi people is to stand united and bonded, and not to fall into the Western trap. The West is trying to divide the Iraqi people." In a later interview, Muqtada claimed, "We say that the occupiers are responsible for such crises ... there is only one enemy. The occupier."

Similarly, Sunnis were quick to express their solidarity with Shi'ites in a series of demonstrations in Samarra and elsewhere. Anti-American signs and slogans permeated these marches. Indeed, there is a widespread belief that it was the US, not fellow Muslims or Iraqis, which bears responsibility for the tragedy.

-MORE-
Four damn paragraphs was just too few. This article deserves serious reading. This criminal idea was born in the mind of the corrupt Neocons who brought us the war in Iraq in the first place...
________________________________________________________________________

Hunt Oil Skirts Baghdad, Signs Deal with Kurds
<snip>

Hunt Oil Co. has struck a deal to explore for oil in Iraq's semiautonomous Kurdish region, signaling a new willingness by some large Western companies to bypass the fractious government in Baghdad and deal directly with regional authorities in the war-torn country.

The regional government of Kurdistan and Dallas-based Hunt said over the weekend they had agreed to jointly explore for oil in the Kurdish enclave. Hunt, a closely held family concern with a reputation for risk taking, will operate the project, the two sides said.
The deal is a victory for Kurdish officials, who have been trying to attract large, well-known oil companies to the region for years. It bolsters their claim to autonomy in issues such as natural-resource policy, thereby strengthening their hand in sometimes-testy relations with Baghdad.

<snip>

The region currently contributes a very small percentage of the country's overall oil production, but Kurdish officials say they believe it holds large stores of untapped reserves. It's impossible to quantify the region's prospects, but many oil companies -- big and small -- have expressed interest in one day exploring there.

<snip>

The spokeswoman said Hunt determined that conditions were right to sign the deal, after the regional law was passed. "They have a new petroleum law which is transparent and which calls for immediate work in the region," she said in response to emailed questions. The Kurdish regional government "provided all of the necessary processes to begin work and we were ready to go."

It's unclear whether other big Western firms will feel as comfortable moving into Kurdistan. As a privately held company, Hunt doesn't have to answer to public shareholders and is nimbler than its larger competitors in the industry. But its foothold in Iraq may make other deals with big companies more likely, especially if officials in Baghdad's central government don't raise too much of a fuss about being bypassed this time around.

-MORE-

Oh hell no, the Kurds don't have access to oil.
_________________________________________________________________________
Wonder if the other Middle Eastern governments love this plan like you do?

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/iraq/?id=22374

US Senate for dividing Iraq on sectarian basis

US ally Turkey would oppose such an initiative, fearful of unrest among its Kurdish population, they say, adding that a partitioned Iraq would lead outside powers like Iran and Saudi Arabia to bolster rival ethnic militia.

<snip>


(Wonder if anyone here ever gave this any thought before?)

<snip>

The bipartisan Iraq Study Group, which delivered recommendations in December warned that dividing Iraq could trigger mass population flows, the collapse of the fragile Iraqi security forces and ethnic cleansing by strengthened militias.

-MORE-
____________________________________________________________________

Globalist Think Tanks Call For Balkanization Of Iraq
Long term agenda to divide and conquer presented as final solution
Steve Watson
Infowars.net
Thursday, July 5, 2007

<snip>
A plan gaining traction in the Congress to separate Iraq into three autonomous territories directly mirrors long term globalist plans to "divide and conquer" in Iraq, an ongoing semi-covert project which has involved the intentional stoking of sectarian violence by occupying forces.

The authors, Edward P. Joseph of Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies and Michael O'Hanlon, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, are hoping to draw the attention of George W. Bush administration policymakers, reports Iranian news wire Press TV.

The three main spheres proposed in the report would be Shia, Sunni and Kurdistan. Iraqi Kurds already control Kurdistan. The report also acknowledges that the plan also echoes long term Council on Foreign Relations balkanization mantra.

Such a plan is not new and has been ongoing as part of the 'Salvador Option' by the US in Iraq, which has been reported on and discussed from at least the beginning of 2005 onwards.

<snip>

Veteran journalist John Pilger wrote further about the Salvador Option in the New Statesman last year, shedding light on the origins of the plot:

"The real news, which is not reported in the CNN "mainstream", is that the Salvador Option has been invoked in Iraq. This is the campaign of terror by death squads armed and trained by the US, which attack Sunnis and Shias alike. The goal is the incitement of a real civil war and the break-up of Iraq, the original war aim of Bush's administration. The ministry of the interior in Baghdad, which is run by the CIA, directs the principal death squads. Their members are not exclusively Shia, as the myth goes. The most brutal are the Sunni-led Special Police Commandos, headed by former senior officers in Saddam's Ba'ath Party. This unit was formed and trained by CIA "counter-insurgency" experts, including veterans of the CIA's terror operations in central America in the 1980s, notably El Salvador."

<snip>

Murray suspects that as part of a "divide and conquer" strategy, the same strategy used by British forces in Iraq 85 years ago, Special forces are being used to intentionally foment civil war by training and equipping Kurdish Peshmerga fighters and Shiite militiamen, to target Sunni insurgents and their sympathizers.

"The evidence that the US directly contributed to the creation of the current civil war in Iraq by its own secretive security strategy is compelling." Murray continues.

He goes on to point out that US Congressman Denis Kucinich took up the issue in April of this year in a letter to Donald Rumsfeld requesting all records pertaining to the plan.

Kucinich weighed in on the matter, providing further evidence that the Salvador Option was being implemented, he wrote:

"About one year before the Newsweek report on the "Salvador Option," it was reported in the American Prospect magazine on January 1, 2004 that part of $3 billion of the $87 billion Emergency Supplemental Appropriations bill to fund operations in Iraq, signed into law on November 6, 2003, was designated for the creation of a paramilitary unit manned by militiamen associated with former Iraqi exile groups. According to the Prospect article, experts predicted that creation of this paramilitary unit would "lead to a wave of extrajudicial killings, not only of armed rebels but of nationalists, other opponents of the U.S. occupation and thousands of civilian Baathists."
There have been a number of instances that have provided evidence pointing to the fact that the Salvador Option has been invoked in Iraq. In September 2005 British SAS were caught dressed in Arab garb and attempting to stage a terror attacks on Iraqi police. The soldiers were "rescued" by British troops using extreme force and a media blackout ensued.

-MORE-

_________________________________________________________________________












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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Hi -- nice to see you again. I'm heading out the door now but will be back
later this evening to take a look at your obviously well-documented presentation. :thumbsup: I'm looking forward to reading the views opposing this approach -- I think we all need to consider both sides. And I'm sincerely interested in understanding the big picture better. Admittedly I gravitate toward viewpoints with which I agree, and I'm trying to make an effort to go beyond those viewpoints and keep learning. So stand by.

PS Your statement:

"If you don't think that its the perfect way to draw the region into more chaos, death, and destruction then I don't know what's wrong with you."

At this point in my limited education on this matter, I could say the same to you. But I won't.

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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. I only say I don't know what's wrong with you because you are backing a
plan that was born in the deep dark recesses of the neocon brain. It's been floated for years and for years it has been pointed out that this is exactly what this administration wanted in the first place.

Just because Joe Biden and some dems looking for a quick fix to a problem that does not have a quick fix resurrect the idea now does not make it a good idea. It can only stir up more trouble in the region and that is the one thing we do not want.

Yes, Iraq is a country that was thrown together by the West after WWII. So was Israel. It was carved out of Palestinian lands and handed to the Jews for a homeland without thought or concern for the outcome. A lot of really ignorant and arrogant crap was done to the Middle Eastern countries by the victors of the war. The allied powers, particularly Great Britain, felt that they had the right to create a Middle East of their own design and screw the people who lived there.

I don't know what the solution is, but to make three countries out of Iraq will only work if the ALL people in that nation will agree to that solution. And I can tell you as sure as I'm sitting here that ain't gonna happen.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Why don't you see this as bad news?
Do you realize that the other option is to continue to do what they are doing now?
And that is going sooooo well - isn't it?

Right now the bush administration is giving arms to the Sunni's - which makes Iran even more pissed at us.

Biden has said :
The plan offers, he acknowledged in Senate remarks this month, just "the possibility, not the guarantee, of stability." But it is better than Bush's wishful thinking, which, will leave the country "right back where we started" once the military surge subsides next year.

He is well aware that the Iraqi gov't may not embrace it.

But at least he has offered an alternative to stay the course.

Something has to be done in Iraq - and the present gov't in Iraq has no clue what they are doing.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Oh phooey. That's not the only other option. Someone else has pointed
out that the UN is an option.

Also, maybe we try to put together a real government, not a bunch of lackeys and crooks.

Or maybe we just get the fuck out and LET THEM DECIDE WHAT TO DO. I mean, it is their country, isn't it?

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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. acmavm - the Biden amendment includes all of those you mentioned.
The UN; it;s up to the Iraqis and we need to get the fuck out of there.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Yep, we need to get the hell out. But not at a cost of making things worse
than they are now. Right this minute the chaos is confined to one country (unfortunately for the Iraqis). Start playing kingmaker (or country-maker, however you want to phrase it) and you will see the other powers in the region get involved.

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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. That is why it is important that the UN gets involved.
There is some big meeting in Iraq next week, not sure if the UN is involved or not.

If the Biden amendment does nothing else but open the dialogue between the Iraqi leaders that there are other option to regain some normalcy in Iraq - other than what they are doing now - than I consider it a huge success.

The best thing imho would be to lock up all the Iraqi leaders in a room - without any outside influence - and make them come to an agreement on a new plan for peace. And not let them out until they have come to an agreement.... whatever it is. Or else we are going to keep witnessing more of the same for years.
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Steve_in_California Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #2
27. Don't forget about the United Nations!
Biden' plan calls for the United States to covene a conference of the members of the U.N. Security Council, Iraq and its neighbors, to hammer out a deal upon which all can agree and pledge support. The United States will not be imposing anything on Iraq. The international community will put together a package of financial and diplomatic incentives meant to promote stability and peace. If any nation violates the agreements so reached, the world will come down on their heads.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #27
33. Thanks for the reminder. You're right on, per usual. nt
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. The Senate supports Biden's plan, and so do top Iraqi leaders
Imagine if he was president, then we'd finally begin making progress toward getting out of this morass of a failure, rather than have the usual political culprits pretending to be knowledgeable on Iraq and foreign policy, standing around promoting themselves and their own self-interests. I pray that America wakes up in time to take advantage of this man's wisdom and energy at this critical juncture in our nation's history. Thanks for the link, gateley. Always a pleasure.
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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #3
36. Here Here!!!!
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 10:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. Gateley - you are a woman after my own heart!
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. A top Sunni leader also proposed a similar plan & may have convinced
a top Shi'ite leader that this is they way to go.

The plan they proposed is called "The National Pact".

However - those in Iraq that are in Bush's pocket, are in opposition.

Anyway - it's not for us to decide. It's up to the Iraqis and Biden's plan states exactly that.

The top leaders in Iraq will be meeting next week to discuss this.
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. All parties know that something different has to be done
If there's any kind of an advantage, that is it. And this is a reasonable plan. It allows Shiites to make decisions for Shiites, Kurds to make decisions for Kurds, and Sunnis for Sunnis. And best of all, the United States is not making decisions for Iraqis. This might finally give Iraq something to work with, and they might very well feel it's worth a try. They sure as hell don't have anything to lose. It will still be a nightmare, but maybe we can start to see some real progress, not Bush's pretend-a-progress. Joe Biden is demonstrating real leadership with something that could save countless lives. Good lord, let's wake up and nominate this man.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The problem in Iraq is that alot of the leaders are in Bush's pocket.
For all we know he is giving them kickbacks from Halliburton or something.

Think about this. Nouri Al-Maliki was here in the US when the Senate voted on Biden's plan. He went back to Iraq on 9/28.
Biden brought his plan to the Senate floor on Friday 9/21. Al-Maliki waits until he gets back to Iraq to make a statement that
Biden's plan is not going to work. and then the next day other Arab states speak out against it. You can't tell me that there is no connection there. If Maliki was against it, then why didn't he make a public announcement against it on the day Biden brought it to the Senate floor?

The good news is that there are other leaders that are for it. One is a Sunni named Al-Hashemi. He used to be one of Bush's guys, but then broke away because he felt that Bush was standing in the way of a peaceful solution.

Yes - I have been studying this stuff. Who would ever think that I would find this fascinating - but I do.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-29-07 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
12. Gateley - I didn't know this:
From your link:

In al-Sharq al-Awsat newspaper (Issue no. 10530 - September 27, 2007), Dr. Adil Abdul Mahdi, the Shiite VP of Iraq said that the American proposal to partition Iraq might lead to embracing federalism and the birth of federal regions united by a federal goverment. He used the United Arab Emirates as an example.

=============================
What I found out today is that Ayatollah Sistani (shi'ite) is leaning towards it because it could bring peace.

So that is 2 Shi'ite leaders that embrace Biden's proposal.
:toast:

I am convinced now more than ever that Biden needs to be Prez.
The plan is going to meet resistance, but Biden obviously knows what he was talking about.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Excellent! What's most important is not if the DUers agree with the Biden
plan or not, but if this plan can really help achieve peace in Iraq.

I, too, am convinced that Biden knows best how to communicate and work with leaders of other nations. Boy, do we need him now!
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. What I don't get are the DUers that want to see this fail.
Like they are actually happy that Maliki doesn't like Biden's plan.

Oh goody - we'll just keep doing Bush's plan then:banghead:
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Yeah, good point. I thought the ultimate hope was to get our troops out and
make amends for what we've done to the Iraqis. :shrug:

With Biden's plan, we're TRYING. :thumbsup:
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. If the candidate they support didn't propose it, they want it to fail
There are a few small-minded posters on this board who only care about their candidate looking good and the other candidates looking bad. It's sad, but true. It's a weak sense of priorities. I chose to believe that they are a small minority. But one fact can't be denied: Biden is the only candidate to offer a viable counter plan to Bush's. So they can take pot shots at it all they want, but by doing so they're inadvertently, or perhaps intentionally, endorsing Bush's plan, an abysmal failure.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. It is really sad. This is bigger than politics - why don't people understand that?
I cannot believe some of the comments that have been made since Biden's plan swept the Senate.

The best one was we did this for the oil.

Yeah- Biden is going to send his son to Iraq for their oil:puke:
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Sistani's support would be a major boost toward accepting the plan
He still wields a lot of influence among the Shiites. The Kurds are on board and if you could get a majority of Shiites to buy into this plan, then the Sunnis will have little choice. But if we could convince the Sunnis that it would bring some semblance of order and improve security to some degree, then I think many Sunnis will go along.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Google "Hashemi National Pact" - this is from a Sunni leader that has offered
Edited on Sun Sep-30-07 12:28 AM by pirhana
a similar plan to Biden's.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Thanks for the lead. I guess it's a good thing that we have other resources
than those who have all the answers here at DU.


Off to google now! :hi:
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ginchinchili Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. Thanks, pirhana. I'm becoming increasingly confident that this is the road to take
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Here's a link that goes over what I have been talking about
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Steve_in_California Donating Member (365 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
28. Canada is behind it!
The Canadian government has been working with Sunni, Shia and Kurd leaders for quite some time to create the necessary agreements to bring federalism to Iraq.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Steve - are you being sarcastic or serious?
Cuz I have never heard that one before
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Texas_Kat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:08 AM
Response to Original message
24. Of course they do... Kurdistan has always been their dream
Too bad Turkey has said it's not a solution they're inclined to live with.... neither have the Sunni's or the Shia.
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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. You should probably read the entire thread before you post that.
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Here's "A Turkish Point of View"
The inevitable is happening in Iraq: a Turkish point of view
Sep 28th, 2007 by babylonians

The inevitable is happening in Iraq

A U.S. Senate resolution approved on Wednesday is suggesting a Bosnia-style plan to divide Iraq on ethnic and religious lines with a weak central government that will control oil revenues. Many blame the U.S. for helping Iraq disintegrate. As a matter of fact they are wrong. Iraq has been falling a part for a long time… Some people in Turkey did not want to believe this.

By Ilnur Cevik28

September 2007

For the past year we have been saying it is impossible to keep Iraq together under the current structure and that the country is falling apart. We said over an over again that the “glue” is not there to keep the country intact and that Turkey should make preparations for a plan on what it would do if Iraq disintegrated or was divided into three sections.

On Wednesday the U.S. Senate approved a Bosnia-style plan to divide Iraq on ethnic and religious lines, touted by backers as the sole hope of forging a federal state out of sectarian strife.

In a vote of 75 to 23, the American Senate passed the non-binding resolution. However, the measure would not force a change in President George W. Bush’s war strategy, but provides a key test of an idea drawing rising interest in Washington despite opposition from the Bush administration.

U.S. senators hope the move would provide for decentralizing Iraq in a federal system as permitted by Iraq’s constitution to stop the country from becoming a failed state. It proposes to separate Iraq into Kurdish, Shiite and Sunni entities, with a federal government in Baghdad in charge of border security and oil revenues.

Let us stress that what the U.S. senators have done is just a suggestion and does not have any power to impose congressional will on George W. Bush or on the Baghdad administration. But we feel it should be taken seriously as the beginning of the end for a strong centralized system in Iraq.

People have already started criticizing the U.S. for dividing up Iraq but what is actually being done is to put on paper what the course of nature is taking in Iraq…

Such partition was inevitable. But many people in Turkey did not want to believe this and we do not have a plan to handle this new situation.

As time goes by the Kurdish reality in northern Iraq becomes even a stronger Kurdish reality while we refuse to talk to them or even acknowledge their presence.

We still have time to make amends. The U.S. Senate resolution will remain a suggestion for the time being. But what is clear is that Iraq has been heading for such a partition for a long time.

Iraqi deputies in the Parliament were elected on the sectarian and ethnic lines and already represent the clear lines dividing the communities in Iraq. That is why the Parliament is deadlocked over many vital bills from the oil law to the legislation on national reconciliation.

Turkey based its policies on the belief that Iraq will remain intact and will never fall apart… We said over and over again that this was wrong.

Turkey now has to get used to the idea of dealing with three entities in Iraq… This means the Iraqi Kurds will be our immediate neighbors and we have to talk to them. Thus we have to prepare ourselves psychologically to these eventualities.

What Turkey now has to do is to discuss at the National Security Council this important situation developing at our doorstep and hart a new course on how we should handle the new Iraqi equation.

Even the fact that Turkey-Iraq has problems in signing an counter-terrorism pact is because Ankara simply does not want any Iraqi Kurdish involvement in this process but without such involvement Baghdad cannot agree to approve anything…
ilnurcevik@yahoo.com

Source: the New Anatolian

http://babylonians.wordpress.com/


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jillan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
30. Turkey recognizes that it is going to happen anyway.
That is a great article. Thanks for posting
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Eurobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
35. Watch the History Channel program about Saddam gassing the Kurds
The early part of the program shows the original boundaries in Middle East before the West gummed things up. I see nothing wrong with putting things back the way they were. Biden is right.

It has nothing to do with the NeoCons, IMHO and more to do with ethnic groups that might come together to repair the tattered threads of the regions.

All that I wished was to walk upon an earth that had no maps. Count Almásy, The English Patient



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Froward69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-30-07 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
37. I Agree
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