The Iraqis have rejected the Biden Plan.

[calteacherguy]

Iraq's Shiites and Sunnis reject US partition idea
Posted: 29 September 2007 2326 hrs

BAGHDAD : Shiite and Sunni figures in Iraq dismissed Saturday a US Senate plan to split Iraq along ethnic and religious lines, while the Kurds welcomed it as the "only viable solution" to the present chaos.

Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki said upon his return from the United States that the idea being floated there by a US senator and presidential hopeful would "be a catastrophe not only in Iraq but also on the region."

"It is Iraqis who decide and they are keen to maintain the unity of their country," Maliki told state-run Al-Iraqiya television.

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world/view/302931/1/.html

So much for that. Democracy cannot be imposed, nor can any form of government.

[daninthemoon]

1. OK, so then wtf do they want to do? Pick a plan and do it, so maybe

or soldiers will be allowed to come home. Maybe.

[Colobo]

2. They want us to leave, I think.

[daninthemoon]

3. bushler needs it spelled out for him, though. Official like.

[Kagemusha]

4. You mean the Kurds are not Iraqis too?

You could've read the first sentence of your own posted article before shortening it to "the Iraqis have".

[ginchinchili]

5. That's just it; you won't find agreement among "the Iraqis" on anything

And, of course, the Prime Minister is not going to endorse having his power stripped away from him. That is a given. But something has to be done and it has to include American military personnel leaving Iraq, it has to be done in a way that gives the governing decisions to the Iraqis without relying on a strong centralized government, and it has to be done as responsibly as possible. Give this to the Iraqis and if they don't like it, they can do with it what they want. But doing nothing is like having a big gaping wound and doing nothing about it. We can't sustain the status quo.

[kirby]

6. I wanna see a referendum vote...

Not this casual dismissal of the partition issue.

Even a parliament vote would be better.

[calteacherguy]

8. Perhaps you do. But the question is, do the Iraqis? nt

[jillan]

9. They are meeting next week. But I have to ask you -

are you hoping Biden's plan fails? Because as far as I know, it's the only other plan besides Bush's plan.

Oh - you want the Iraqi's to make the decision?
An Iraqi leader has offered an almost identical plan to Biden's. That is what they are meeting on next week.
Biden's plan precisely says that it is up to the Iraqi's.
http://webcenters.netscape.compuserve.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-APO-1107&idq=/ff/story/0001%2F20070927%2F0735770835.htm&sc=1107

that's one link - I can provide you with more.

[slick8790]

25. Well perhaps they should come up with their own plan if they don't like Biden's that much.

But I haven't seen anything of the sort.

[jillan]

7. You do know that Maliki is in Bush's pocket, don't you??

And you do know that Maliki just returned from meeting with Bush when he said that.
And you do know that it is stated in Biden's plan that it is up to the Iraqi's.

But what you also need to know is that Hashemi - a Sunni leader - was one of Bush's men over there.
He broke away from the "Green-Zone politicians" two months ago because he said that they were interferring with the peace process.

Hashemi has proposed an almost identical plan as Biden's to the Iraqi people.
It's called the National Pact. Ayatollah Sistani - a Shi'ite leader is leaning towards embracing it...AND I just found out from another DUer that Mahdi, another Shi'ite leader embraced the plan.

The leaders of Iraq are meeting next week to go over it. It is up to them to work it out.

on edit - they can discuss this or they can continue to stay the course. At least Biden has offered an option.

[kad7777]

10. Yes, Joe Biden

has had this plan for over a year now. Joe Biden. Not one other politician. Not one other candidate. If you try to find another idea out there you'll hear crickets. And why is that? Because they're afraid. Afraid they might lose an election.

I don't expect Joe to give up on this because a milk toast "leader" like Maliki says so. Maliki's done a pretty piss poor job from the beginning of his "leadership". A leader Bush appointed. Anyway, I have the utmost confidence in Joe. He'll set it straight. My guess is Joe expected this response. So let's see what happens over the next couple weeks. I know Joe will continue to try to stop the bloodshed of Americans as well as stopping a civil war that will most likely splinter to the surrounding countries.

[jillan]

12. I really like these comments by him:

The plan offers, he acknowledged in Senate remarks this month, just "the possibility, not the guarantee, of stability." But it is better than Bush's wishful thinking, which, he recently told a Nebraska audience, will leave the country "right back where we started" once the military surge subsides next year.

A stable federalism is "not going to happen organically," said a Biden aide. As in the Balkans a decade ago, the United States, in Biden's view, must embrace regionalism, get allies and neighboring countries on board, and lock Iraqis in a room -- figuratively -- until they agree on a devolutionary framework.

The result, Biden stresses, should be federalism, not partition. Iraq would remain one country, and the central government would distribute oil revenue and patrol the borders. Such an arrangement is already provided for in the Iraqi constitution, he says.

http://nationaljournal.com/rauch.htm

I wish I could sit down with Biden and pick his brain.
I think he is really on to something - and I agree with you, he was probably expecting this response from Maliki.
He always asks "Then what?" I just want to ask him "Now what?"

[Steve_in_California]

11. Al Maliki is barely hanging on

He does not speak for the Iraqi people.

[kad7777]

13. Absolutely Steve

And you wanna know something, I love that when we discuss Joe Biden, where ever it is; DU or other forums, the political conversations are always serious. And damn it, they should be!

Sorry, there goes my passion again.

[jillan]

14. Gateley and I were talking about that.

About how much we have learned about Iraq and foreign affairs just because we support Biden.

I don't see that going on with the supporters of any other candidate.

I think we all have that passion!

[Milo_Bloom]

15. Who cares?

The Senate just voted that what goes on in Iraq is of VITAL NATIONAL INTEREST to the US, so who cares what they WANT?

Its not like what Iraqis have wanted has mattered to us before... The Senators who voted for the IWR and have capitulation on all the funding bills since then haven't listened to the Iraqi's before... why start now?

Hell, let's divide Iraq into 24 countries, like a big game of Monopoly and get the CEO's of all the major corporate pigs feasting at the trough that is Iraq play.

If they frame the bill in the right way and make Senators think that voting against it will make them look weak on Terror, I am sure they will all line up to vote for it.

[kad7777]

16. Joe Biden cares

If you have a better plan...let's hear it.

[Milo_Bloom]

17. Joe Biden helped sign the blank check...

... His lack of leadership helped get us into this mess, so lets look to real leaders to solve it.

As for solutions, rather than trying to figure it out from the perch in DC, we might want to try really engaging the UN and bordering nations.

The reality is that no US plan is going to work, because it is tainted by the fact that US is doing it. That is just the reality of the situation. What the Iraqi's need is true impartiality and it isn't going to come from the US.

[kad7777]

18. real leaders?

And whom might they be?

How can "WE" engage the UN and bordering countries (something Joe Biden has expressed numerous times), if you believe the US should stay out of it? Isn't "WE" the USA?

Yes, lets have some real impartiality take care of the situation in Iraq. I think we'll be able to obtain that from Iran and Syria. They can take care of it.

Your remedies are quite vague. A little specificity would be greatly appreciated.
Wait, as a matter of fact don't waste my time. I'm sure they'll be ridiculous.

[Milo_Bloom]

21. We know Biden isn't.

The point is that Biden saw fit to help invade the country in the first place, despite the fact that no one asked for it and now he is going to "care" because the Iraqi's aren't interested in his plan.

Real leadership is not signing onto the IWR in the first place.

[demommom]

20. His plan calls for engaging neighboring countries and the UN .

edited for spelling.

[demommom]

19. Who Cares?

To begin with,those who are serving in Iraq and putting their lives on the line every second that they are there. Who cares? The families of those who are putting their lives on the line. Who Cares? the moms and families of those who will be sent there to put their lives on the line.
I care, I don't want my young, bright and energetic grandson or my beautiful nieces or my friends grandsons and granddaughters having to go there and put their lives in harms way and on hold to fight a never ending occupation. YOU should care,if you want to continue to enjoy the freedoms we have always enjoyed in your lifetime.
Who cares? Joe Biden Cares!!

[Milo_Bloom]

22. Now that is pretty funny.

Completely off the point, but very funny.

It is because I CARE that I would never EVER vote for a man like Joe Biden. It is because I care I would work as hard as possible to keep him out of the White House in the primary OR in the general election. It is because I CARE about those people he helped send off to die that I wouldn't allow this man the power of making decisions for others. It is because I want those freedoms to continue that I wouldn't trust Joe Biden to make a decision about what socks I put on.

[jillan]

27. Milo - who cares? I don't care that you are not going to vote for Biden.

But I do care that Kucinich - who is the only candidate that voted against the IWR, so I assume that is who you are supporting - has no chance in HELL to win in the General.

[Milo_Bloom]

32. Putting a capitulating follower in office gets us nowhere.

If we have any chance of cleaning up the mess created by the last 16 years, we need a real LEADER in the White House (yes, I am including Clinton in the MESS because he allowed the groundwork to be laid for bush.).

The 1997 Iraq resolution declaring activities in Iraq of national vital interest laid the ground work for the war in 2001.

The media consolodation that has handed the right wing power over the press... it was allowed because Clinton allowed it to happen.

The free trade agreements... you get where I am going.

We need someone in office who isn't going to compromise their PRINCIPLES. Joe Biden has done it too many times and will do it again if put near the White House and all he will accomplish is laying the ground work for the next GOP president, if not doing it himself because he is too cowardly to stand up for principles over that which is politically convenient.

The reason I find it so funny that anyone should suddenly Care is that Joe Biden didn't care one bit about what the Iraqi's wanted when he signed the death warrant of over 100,000 of their civillians, so I find it funny that anyone is even considering what they may want now.

[hayu_lol]

23. Joe Biden has always been good at taking ideas from others.;.

The original idea to split Iraq into 3 areas(culturally, economically, and geographically)is not original with Joe. One has to travel back in time to a little fella named Winston Churchill who proposed just exactly the same solution about 70 years ago during the 30s and early 40s. Churchill finally came around and decided to make of Iraq, a unitary country.

Wonder how many more of Joe's ideas are either borrowed or stolen?

[ginchinchili]

24. I draw from your comments that you are supporting Bush's "plan."

Because they're the only ones out there. And I'm sure, like yourself, Bush is not thrilled that Biden has presented this plan, especially with some many Republicans signing on. Idea of creating a federation of regions in Iraq is just that, an idea, not a plan. Biden takes that idea and builds a plan around it. He's offering a plan, and he's the only one who has offered an alternative to the disaster that we've got going now. It's fine if you think Bush's plan is better. That's your prerogative. But I think it's intellectually irresponsible for going after Sen. Biden for caring enough and taking the initiative to propose an alternative plan to Bush's.

[Froward69]

26. ahhh but kept iraq a single country...

why?? it was a British possition. thought it would be easier to control. The inhabitants themselves have long wanted self rule.

[jillan]

29. And Iraq has been f-ed up ever since.

Maybe you should read up on the history of Iraq.
Secretarian violence began when the British tried to unite the country in the 20's.

[Honeycombe8]

28. That is in keeping with their history of making bad choices, it seems.

Too bad.

The alternative, I guess, is an Israeli-Palestinian-like perpetual negotiation going forward into the infinite future, with never a resolution, and always perpetual violence. Which means the youth grow up in that violence, become desensitized to it, and perpetuate it, never intending to compromise on anything, having been raised in a hate-filled environment.

Too bad.

[jillan]

30. Finally - someone who understands what's at stake here.

[noamnety]

31. As opposed to the US making bad choices FOR them? (nt)