Any reasonable person would see that Hillary is not going to make it

[Nimrod2005]

The reasons are many...Way too many to list, but here are just few:

1) Clinton Bush fatigue, BIG TIME!
2) Front runners for the longest time, do not finish first, when it is IA time
3) NH almost always reject the MSM choices and SURPRISES people
4) Moved way to the right for most Dems
5) Way way too divisive!
6) Bill's days in DC: nobody wants the circus back in town
7) Folks are genuinely tired of fighting with THEM
8) The white man is not ready for a woman Pres.
9) Fund raising scandals are already in the air, more to come for sure
10) While she is smart and articulate, very few people would like to have a beer with her

[liberalmuse]

1. I'm reasonable...

and believe she has a damn good chance of winning the nomination and becoming our next President.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

8. I think she has a very good chance

I know so many republicans - some even military officers - who aren't voting for the rethugs next year, that I'm beginning to think we could run the local dogcatcher and win.

Ok, so I'm too optimistic right now, but you can't be depressed all the time or you go nuts! Give me this day, please!

[applegrove]

11. Here here!

[emilyg]

27. I'm with you 100%.

[Rockholm]

44. Reasonable here. She can win.

ANY DEMOCRAT WILL WIN 2008.

[Clark2008]

58. Obviously you live in the blue bubble.

I don't think any of our Dems can win the presidential unless millions of swing-vote Bubbas simply don't vote. I'll focus on congress.

[sniffa]

60. deja vu aLL over again

remember 2004?

[Rockholm]

63. Clinton is not Kerry.

Kerry had a very weak campaign staff and his (their) delay in response to the swiftboat assassination of his character cost him the election. If she is the Democratic candidate in 2008, then the power of the Democratic Party must support her and get her elected...no matter what. Hold your nose if you have to, but this is going to be the most critical election in our lifetime. If the Democrats lose the White House in 2008, then it is all lost. What a Democratic president will need to right the disaster that this asswipe has given us, is A VETOPROOF MAJORITY in the Senate and maybe the House then maybe, just maybe, we will have our country back.

[sniffa]

64. and saying cLinton wins

and that's a huge if, do you honestLy think she's going to increase numbers in congress?

if we're Lucky we'LL onLy go through her presidency with DOMA, DADT, etc... and what the heLL, iran is Looking at us cockeyed.

say what you want about kerry and his staff, but shit was fucked up then too, and the mantra was a head of Lettuce wouLd beat bush that year.

and yes she's no kerry. that's not a good thing.

[Rockholm]

65. If it is Clinton vs. (republican candidate)..

we had better hope she wins. That is all. I have yet to make up my mind as to who to pick. Luckily, I have many months to listen and educate myself. I have drifted from Hillary to Obama and over to Edwards. At this point, if the primary was tomorrow, I do not know who I would vote for.

What is unfortunate in my opinion, are many many threads starts by somewhat low posters that are only concerned with one candidate. i am sure every campaign has a boiler room with folks scanning every blog pushing information (misinformation) about every other candidate. The whispering campaigns have gone cyber and it kinda creeps me out a bit.

[polichick]

2. While there's some truth here, let me just say that...

...the white man mentioned in #8 needs a good kick in the ass! :)


(Oh, and I'd like to have a beer with her ~ or maybe a nice glass of wine!)

[Nimrod2005]

3. Yup, agreed!

[iamjoy]

10. The White Man In #8

isn't much more likely to vote for a black man.

But then, the sexist and racist don't usually vote Democratic anyway.

[polichick]

25. Yeah, that white guy can be a real power hog!

I'd like to think we Dems don't have a problem with sexism and racism, but I've been assured by Dem white guys that we still do.

[Clark2008]

59. Me, too, polichick.

I know several Dem men who won't vote for her or Obama. Sad, but true.

[Ethelk2044]

50. White Men in Alabama has already stated anyone but Hillary. They even told Obama

when he walked up to him. They would vote for him over Hillary.

[Esra Star]

4. What is this? Letterman's "Top Ten".....

[NMDemDist2]

5. yeah well, I'm not known for being reasonable I guess... n/t

[DemocratSinceBirth]

6. Game...Set...Match

The reasons are many...Way too many to list, but here are just few:

1) Clinton Bush fatigue, BIG TIME!

Recent polls indicate a majority of Americans have Clinton as one of the five best presidents of all time ... I think that's over the top but it is what it is...

2) Front runners for the longest time, do not finish first, when it is IA time

No- but most go on to win their party's nomination

3) NH almost always reject the MSM choices and SURPRISES people

Clinton and Bush* won their party's nomination without New Hampshire but you're assuming facts not in evidence as Hillary hasn't lost yet...

4) Moved way to the right for most Dems

Opinion masquerading as fact

5) Way way too divisive!

Opinion masquerading as fact

6) Bill's days in DC: nobody wants the circus back in town

Opinion masquerading as fact

7) Folks are genuinely tired of fighting with THEM

Opinion masquerading as fact

8) The white man is not ready for a woman Pres.

Fuck the white man...She can get elected without many of them

9) Fund raising scandals are already in the air, more to come for sure

Inside baseball

10) While she is smart and articulate, very few people would like to have a beer with her..

How many people wanted to have a beer with Richard Nixon, the man who won the biggest pop vote and EC landslide in the history of the republic?

[Hardrada]

7. I have been tired of her since she took the sword from its

scabbard and handed it, all-sharpened, to Bush II.

[liberal renegade]

9. You Hillary haters are in denial.

It's hers for the taking and you can't stand that fact.

How did you come up with this list of reasons? It sounds like something (Gush Limpdick) came up with....

[Ethelk2044]

52. We will see if we are correct when the first state pulls the levers

[snowbear]

55. Yep..

I agree Ethel.

[sniffa]

61. and you hiLLbots are deLusionaL

[durrrty libby]

12. Save America ..Conserve Bandwith.. Don't Post BullShit

[Gman]

13. This sounds like something from Hannity's "Stop Hillary Express"

Fund raising scandals? Are you Doug from Upland? Have you called the FBI?-->http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1904205/posts

Yes, Hillary has baggage. But she will be the next president. Do not ever underestimate Hillary or the Big Dog.

[saltpoint]

14. I'm reasonably reasonable but not a Hillary-hating voter.

I prefer other of our nominees before her, and there is the question of personal enthusiasm.

I preferred Mo Udall to Jimmy Carter.

I preferred Gary Hart to Walter Mondale.

I preferred almost the entire Democratic field to Bill Clinton -- Mario Cuomo before he withdrew from consideration (at the very last hour -- an 11th-hour withdrawal from the race), or Tom Harkin of Iowa, or Jerry Brown of California -- all ran interesting campaigns and presented convincing visions of my country and I preferred those visions to Bill Clinton's vision, whatever it was.

This time I like John Edwards' insistence on poverty, I like Joe Biden's foreign policy chops, and I like Barack Obama's experience in community-building, and all three are smart and energetic and eloquent on the stump.

That said, I can read a national poll about as well as any of us can, and the national polls and the on-line oddsmakers say that Hillary Rodham Clinton is the next president of the United States.

We'll see how it turns out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

16. I Preferred Ted Kennedy To Jimmy Carter (80)

Gary Hart to Walter Mondale (84)

Al Gore to the field (88)

Bob Kerrey to the field (92)

Wes Clark to the field (04)

Obama, Edwards, and Clinton to the field (08)

[saltpoint]

17. We would have much to talk about over a cold beer, DemocratSinceBirth.

My parents were New Deal Democrats, although my maternal grandmother battled with Fightin' Bob LaFollette.

Ted Kennedy was said not to run a very impressive challenge to Carter in 1980 (my Udall affiliation was for the 76 nomination) but that didn't stop me from listening to anything and everything Ted had to say that year.

I'm much more drawn to the Kennedy Democratic model than to the Carter Democratic model.

[ngant17]

20. The "Carter model" was the best civilian-oriented presidency

Those years, 1976-1980, were perhaps the most peaceful time in the recent history of America. Even Clinton was a reckless war-monger compared to Carter.

What we got after that time, it was a series of military-adventurist Presidents.

Carter brought back a normalization with Cuba, you won't even get Obama to touch that!

Unfortunately, America has since been warped and twisted by a steady stream of politician with a war-mongering mentality, something which might take generations of peace-activists to help correct and get us back on the right track aka the Carter model.

[saltpoint]

22. I was much more impressed with Jimmy Carter as a post-president and

give him full and rich credit for his work since leaving office but did not feel especially drawn to his presidency.

I thought his Cabinet was wobbly in places (Griffin Bell, Cyrus Vance) and disastrous in others (Bert Lance and the firing of Bella Abzug).

I liked the man and supported him ini the general election but preferred Udall in the run-up to the nomination in 76 (Udall almost beat Carter in Wisconsin... that would have turned the race Udall's direction, IMO) and Ted Kennedy in 1980 when many of us knew that Reagan was going to win the GOP nomination and crush Carter.

Which he did.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. A Jackson Browne Avatar

He was one of my favorite 70's artists...Late For The Sky...These Days...The Pretender...Rosie (Ha)
Also loved the Eagles and Linda Ronstadt...

In retrospect Ted Kennedy's challenge was ill advised though my mom caucused for him and I worked for him...His presidential opportunity died at Chappaquidick...The 80 loss was the burial...

Oh well...All things must pass...

[saltpoint]

28. I'm adding Jackson Browne to the mix of things we can discuss over that

cold beer.

Better make it a pitcher, come to think of it.

Ted appears to thrive in the Senate. His older brothers didn't care much for it as a deliberative body, but Ted's different and is at home there.

And he's one of the roaring lions of the left on the social issues that have traditionally defined our party. I love the guy.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. I Saw The Eagles ,Jimmy Bufffett, Hall And Oates For Ten Bucks In 78

eom

[saltpoint]

30. Good god I love that ticket price.

An awful lot of terrific music back then.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. Saw The Stones And Van Halen in 81 For $16.00

[saltpoint]

33. The only thing I can compete with on that is a Stones concert in

the mid 70s for around 17 bucks. People were moaning about the high price, but it was chickenfeed compared to the way that rhythm section makes you feel in your bones and blood. What a band.

And I heard the Goo Goo Dolls for free when they warmed up for John Kerry the Sunday prior to the election in Nov. 04 in Tampa.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

34. Are You In Tampa?

I'm in Orlando?

I will have that beer with you if you ever make it here...

[saltpoint]

35. I lived in Florida a while but have migrated north since.

We travel quite a bit and I would love to have a beer with you.

Not sure when Florida's next on the itinerary. In Chicago this weekend on a used book hunt.

Trying to find an early edition of Leonard Cohen's THE FAVORITE GAME.

Those durn Canadians have got it together.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Just PM Me If You Make It This Way

eom

[saltpoint]

40. Will do. & thanks.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Your Welcome

I know a few DUers in real life...

[saltpoint]

43. Have to admit, until I started listening to music when I was much younger,

I didn't really HAVE a real life.

The world started to come alive for me because of Stevie Wonder and Joni Mitchell and the Who -- and the Beatles doing "We Can Work it Out" and Simon & Garfunkel's startling tour of backstreet NYC with "The Boxer" and james Taylor walking down a country road.

I lived a real Nebraska-lined existence until I started putting some music and poetry into my skull.

I've liked things a lot better since!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. Was A Big JT Fan

Dylan

Springsteen

The Beatles

Leon Russell

Linda Ronstadt ( I thought she was beautiful)

[saltpoint]

48. A VERY sturdy list of folks you have there. Linda Ronstadt always

impressed me but when she recorded Warren Zevon's "Hasten Down the Wind," a team of world-class surgeons was unable to reassemble my central nervous system. What a masterpiece that recording is. Great composition, and she sings the hell of it. All the other recordings she's done are merely excellent-to-magnificent. But "Hasten Down the Wind" is the gods' own nectar.

I don't know if anybody in Hibbing, Minnesota realized how smart Bob Dylan was when he was growing up, but if they doubted him then I bet they don't doubt him now.

"It was in another lifetime, one of toil and blood
When darkness was a virtue and the streets were filled with mud
I came in from the wilderness -- a creature void of form
Come in, she said, I'll give ya shelter from the storm..."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. I Liked Blood On The Tracks

Shelter From The Storm was from the Desire album...

[saltpoint]

53. Was it? I thought it as on Blood On the Tracks. In my ear I have Emmylou

Harris with Bob on "Mozambique" -- "where the skies are aqua-blue / And all the couples dancing cheek-to-cheek..."

Anyway it's tremendous stuff.

Hell, I loved EMPIRE BURLESQUE. It got less notice but I thought it was just as strong.

[Laurab]

54. I LOVE your avatar! Fan since '73 here

and, I noticed when checking Newsmeat that Jackson donated the full amount to Obama for both the primary and the general. (I'm always checking up on JB).

I met Jackson once, very briefly, have seen him tons of times, and I FINALLY, after 20 years of trying, got my youngest brother, who's a professional musician, to be a fan! It was the solo acoustic live that finally got him...

[saltpoint]

72. You have the bird's eye view, IMO. And if you're going to dedicate

concentration and affection toward a musician, Mr. Browne is an awfully good choice.

I love your persuading your brother to give a listen.

[Laurab]

74. My brother does more than listen, actually!

He's a singer/songwriter who has had some success - enough to make a pretty good living from it, anyway, and while he plays his own songs at shows, he's learned a ton of Jackson's songs now, and plays them for me when he's home visiting, and even sometimes over the phone. I worked on my older brother, too, but he pretty much would only admit to liking the guitar on "Late for the Sky", and learned that - he's not a professional musician, he just plays electric lead as a hobby.

All my life, they teased me, and so I was especially glad when the youngest became a fan!

The thing about Jackson Browne, is that his "Lives in the Balance" is even more appropriate for today than it was when it came out, and I confess I really didn't know what he was talking about back then, but when I hear the songs now they amaze me. And the video on his website is really good, too. I posted it on here a while back.

[Crabby Appleton]

15. I'm not a HRC fan, but I think she'll win the nomination,

don't know about the general election.

[rove karl rove]

19. I agree

the general election is to far off too call but HRC has the "mo" big-time....

[pnwmom]

18. I don't want to have a beer with her, but tea would be fine.

Or a coffee milkshake.

:)

[pnwmom]

21. And the REST of us may be sick of the white man as President.

And there are more of US.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

24. :o)

:toast:

[Rosa Luxemburg]

26. I think that you are wrong

[ShortnFiery]

31. You're right but the DLC has the money and the promises - They're Delusional.

It's like watching a political train wreck in slow motion. Unfortunately, the DLC is far too arrogant to face REALITY so we will *all* (The Entire Democratic Party) suffer to feed the DLC's ego.

Perhaps when the dust settles, we could jettison these arrogant players from our ranks?

Maybe some in the DLC will leave the democratic party on their own? ... become Moderate Republicans? :shrug:

[wyldwolf]

56. really - explain?

[Cameron27]

36. I'm reasonable, and I think she's got a good chance.

[Forkboy]

38. Assuming people are unreasonable because they don't see things the same way is pretty unreasonable.

[Cameron27]

39. Maybe it's time that the white man is taught

that he's not the center of the universe, no matter how much he wants to believe he is.

[Arugula Latte]

41. In a normal country, I'd agree with you (except my idealism takes exception w/ #8)

However, it seems like the corporate powers that run this country have picked Hillary. Screw what any reasonable person thinks, Ms.-DLC-Republite-Attack-Iran-Friend-of-Rupert-Murdoch will be shoved down our throats.

[CK_John]

46. Your wrong and I hope she picks Gov K Selebius as her VP. n/t

[OhioChick]

47. ......

11} She's all for outsourcing and doesn't portray to be on the side of the American worker. I think that this time around, many voters are either jobless/pay cuts or worried about job security.

[illinoisprogressive]

49. Zulu talked to a 18 year old who only knows Bush and clinton rule. how sad

[wyldwolf]

73. Zulu posts Sean Hannity talking points, too

[Perry Logan]

57. What staggeringly lame arguments. The anti-Hillary folks are sounding more desperate every day.

Since Bill Clinton was tied with FDR as most popular President of the 20th century, the "fatigue" line is quite a howler.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

62. This post smacks of desperation.

1) Conflating Clinton and Bush does not make sense.
2) This one shows a massive misunderstanding of statistics. If I have 10 candidates then while it's perfectly true that the one with the highest chance of winning usually won't win, because that chance will still be low. But they still have the highest chance of winning.
3) Hillary is not "the MSM choice"; she's the choice of the largest number of Democratic voters.
4) Just wishful thinking. "Dems" and "DUers" are not the same at all.
5) People who hate you and people who merely dislike you both just vote against you once.
6) Lots of people do.
7) Who are "THEM" meant to be.
8) Most of those kind of voters wouldn't vote Democrat anyhow.
9) And for all the other candidates, too.
10) Good thing people are voting for a president rather than a drinking buddy, then.

I am not a fan of Hillary - I think either Edwards or Obama would probably make a better nominee. But I think that you'd be a fool to bet against her winning the primary, and the odds of her winning the election are good. And I think this post shows that her opponents know that too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

66. I Would Agree With You With One Small Caveat

I think Edwards, Obama, and Clinton can all beat their potential GOP rivals with Edwards having a slightly better chance than Clinton and Obama and Clinton having a slightly better chance than Obama...

Your point about "Bubba" is spot on... Somebody who won't vote for a woman or African American probably won't vote for a "national" Democrat either...

[youthere]

67. Why do you post shit like this?

Pure flamebait.

[Carrieyazel]

68. You've hit all the right reasons, why she would flame out.

I would add just one more (for a general election)

11) Repukes and many Indeps detest her so much, that even when she keeps voting their way, it doesn't make any difference. They still don't like her.

[Nimrod2005]

69. Then lately her stupid FAKE laugh!

[Bucky]

70. Wait, I AM the white man and I'm ready for a woman president

Who told you I wasn't ready for a woman president? I'm totally cackling at you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

71. This Is Like A Circle Jerk For Hillary Haters

eom