If you prefer one of the other candidates to Hillary, you'd better start raising some hell

[ginchinchili]

because the door is beginning to close and once it does, we'll be stuck with a flawed candidate who is hated enough to energize those on the right into making this election's outcome a throw of the dice, resulting in seeing Hillary Clinton or Rudy Giuliani in your home nearly everyday for the next 4 years.

[Donkeykick]

1. I'll Take Hillary.

Thanks for caring though.;) :P

[emilyg]

12. So will I.

[Rockholm]

33. Me too.

[ileus]

59. Hillary '08 same here.

[Imagevision]

68. Hillary? nah! it's true she will end up being Bushlite...

[Carrieyazel]

18. You'll be taking Ghouliani then, if Hillary is nominated.

Because that's who will slither into the White House.

[fightindonkey]

22. Nice Try, Gooliani Couldn't Be Elected If He Begged. The Dirt is So High, and It's All On Tape

Not to mention drag shows.

[fightindonkey]

23. Hillary Mops The Floor With Him

[sniffa]

39. nice try though

but if wishes were dreams, then dreams wouLd be broken.

and hiLLary wiLL Lose to aLmost any of the R candidates.

ghouLiani in drag you say? weLL, he's got no shot. thank god, there are no bad pix of hiLLary.

[Jed Dilligan]

45. The second one from the bottom

looks like she just gave birth to a lobster

[sniffa]

47. eh, i Love the nose picking myseLf

pick a winner

[obnoxiousdrunk]

72. I know

compared to that heart throb Dennis Kuch she looks awful.

[Donkeykick]

41. Oh No!

I'll tell you what--I'll even take Bill Richardson over Rudy.;-) :toast:

[HereSince1628]

2. Stuck? Nah. I always get to caste a vote for a democrat I like.

Even if it means writing one in.

[ginchinchili]

3. Sure, you have that option, but it's a waste of your time

[HereSince1628]

31. So is voting for centrists who won't represent my interests.

At least with the write-in I get to caste a vote for someone who does. Without that I got nothin.

[gateley]

51. But don't shoot yourself in the foot. One of those 'centrists' might actually

be in agreement with some of your interests. Be good to yourself.

[HereSince1628]

57. there's no point in eating shit so that I can drink water OR if you want a different phrase

Just because I can satisfy a thirst with water caught from a thunderstorm doesn't mean I've got to be a lightening rod.

[gateley]

60. Uh, okay. I was just trying to be nice. Never mind. nt

[Ken Burch]

73. But we don't need to settle for an elitist candidate who acts like he or she is doing us a favor

By LETTING us vote for him or her.

Any candidate who seeks progressive activist support is obligated to treat us with respect.

And what's wrong with nominating a candidate with REAK convictions, and one who isn't afraid to stand up to the Right Wing attack dogs rather than surrendering to them?

What's wrong with nominating a candidate who will say "Hell yes, I'm progressive, I'm American, and I'm proud to be both"?

Enough shame-based politics already.

[mitchtv]

4. A choice of two New Yorkers (Rudy vs Hillary)

Should stick in some red state craw. I would almost like to see that (after I vote my choice in the primary)

[wyldwolf]

5. Again, no matter how many ways you express that fallacy, it still isnt true...

... no more for Clinton that it is for any candidate.

Sorry.

[Colobo]

6. President Obama, Jan. 09.

[durrrty libby]

7. HIllary all the way, but thanks for your concern

[Peregrine Took]

8. Excellent point - she is running away with it and she's just a DLC rethug

and that's all she'll ever be. I bet her appointments would be "bi-partisan" and she'd even throw in some fellow rethugs in her cabinet.

[lostnotforgotten]

9. Will Never Vote For A Bush War Monger

Would prefer another Republican to Hillary.

All the better to teach the DLC a lesson.

[mitchtv]

10. Teach those dammned Ameicans a lesson too?

thanks.

[lostnotforgotten]

11. Teach The DLC A Lesson - Tired Of Being Manipulated

If that takes America down, then so be it!

[gateley]

13. America's already down. For the count. nt

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

15. This isn't the most solipsistic thing ever posted on DU

This is the most solipsistic thing ever posted anywhere.

It's terrible you're tired of being manipulated, but I'm not sure it warrants the destruction of America.

But I may be wrong. You may be much more important than I know.

[Mythsaje]

16. Welcome to DU...

Yeah, pretty disturbing, isn't it?

[lostnotforgotten]

29. Don't Even Begin To Patronize Me - I've Paid Many, Many Dues

eom

[gateley]

49. Nope, you're not wrong. I'm hardly important. And after having to look up

the meaning of solipsistic, I guess I'm guilty of your charge. My opinion is MY opinion. It's the only thing I "know".

But rather than being satisfied with my opinion and shutting the door to anybody else's, I'm constantly learning, questioning and reevaluating, sometimes to the point of making myself crazy.

I'm not warranting the destruction of America -- where did you get that impression?

I was just expressing my frustration and sadness of where we are at this current time.

Thanks for your input. And for leading me to add another word to my vocabulary! :hi:

[gateley]

50. Well how embarrassing is that?!? I posted a reply to a statement that wasn't

even directed to me! Talk about solipsistic! :7

[ginchinchili]

63. Actually, you're one of the sharper and more honest poster on this board

IMHO.

[Cameron27]

62. Ah you noticed ROFL

(I need more coffee tonight ack!)

[gateley]

14. Agree! It's not that I'm AGAINST Hillary, just very strongly FOR Biden. nt Rec

[Froward69]

43. Biden would win Hillary would

energize all those rightees to come out and vote against her. and LOOSE. Whereas Biden would garner their vote. or keep them home.

[Carrieyazel]

17. Exactly. She must be stopped. No way she gets to 270.

Somewhere in the 260's is her absolute ceiling. And that's giving her all of the states that she could possibly win. More likely she gives you something in the neighborhood of 220-252. She could even lose the three closest Kerry states which would give her only the base. And that's under 220 electoral votes.

If we nominate her, we'll be saying: "Oh, no can she win?? can she win??? can she beat the Repuke?"

Then when we get close to the general we'll be saying: "What have we done?? What have we done???""

And then when she loses: -------I don't even want to think about it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. Do You Have A Link?

Or is your entire post supposition?

[Carrieyazel]

20. No, you don't need a link for this one: here's the breakdown.

Kerry won all of his states in 2004 by 3 points or more EXCEPT for Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and New Hampshire. Those three states were close enough that they could have gone the other way in 2004. Taking away those three states from 252 electoral votes: (Kerry's total) you get the "safe" Democratic states that no Repuke can win in 2008: 217 electoral votes.

The objective is to win enough of the battleground states to win. In addition to Kerry's 3 states, that's: Colorado, Nevada, New Mexico, Iowa, Ohio and Florida. That's it. Every other state won by Shrub last time was won by more than 6 points. These states will be impossible to pick up next year. Of the 6 states above that can be flipped, there's no state there that Hillary can win, except POSSIBLY Iowa or New Mexico which were complete toss-ups for 2 straight elections. Even if she wins all of Kerry's states and picks up Iowa and New Mexico (and that will take everything going right for Hillary; not a sure thing at all) she's stuck in the mid 260's. She can't win CO, NV, OH, and FL. These states historically lean Repuke in presidential elections, and no northern Democratic Senator has won any of them since JFK. To think Hillary has a shot in any of them (even Ohio) is naive.

[Riktor]

21. Unfortunately True

I doubt Hillary will be able to pick up the right-leaning swing states. Having grown up in Ohio, I can tell you the possibility of her taking that state alone seems slim to none. Take a ride down I-76 between Akron and Columbus and you'll see what I mean.

Not that this really matters much to me. The thought of another Clinton in office is nauseating. While life was undoubtedly better under Bill than King George II The Illiterate, I can't suffer the thought of another pandering centrist in liberal clothes. Hillary fell completely out of favor with me when she proposed the Family Entertainment Protection Act. If she's for free speech, then I'm the King of Siam.

[fightindonkey]

25. That's Why Hillary Wins Against Them In Bush States

Nice try honey.

[Turn CO Blue]

56. The Bush states are going Repub.. No way they're going Dem

The Repub voters will hold their noses and vote for Ghouliani or whoever LONG, LONG before they vote for a Dem. Just because people are against the war doesn't mean they've switched parties. The ONLY states in play are the states that are ALWAYS in play.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

26. The Election Is Thirteen Months Away...

I live in Florida...Florida is an atypical southern state...South Florida has more in common with Southern California than it does with Southern Georgia...All the published polls show Florida is in play...The Republicans can not win the White House without Florida...Well, it's virtually impossible...Ohio, too, is very much in play...Bush* needed to capture 16% of the African American vote in Ohio to carry the state, largely brought out by a anti-gay marriage amendment that appealed to conservative African American voters ...That won't happen again...

As of now , all the published opinion polls show her leading her potential Republican rivals by margins of five to fifteen percent:

http://www.pollingreport.com/wh08gen.htm

The Electoral College usually, almost always, follows the popular vote...It's virtually impossible to win the pop vote by a substantial margin and lose the EC vote...Before you bring up Gore he won the pop vote by four or five tenths of a percent...

As of now the data suggests Edwards, Clinton, and Obama can defeat their potential Republican rivals with Edwards having a slightly better chance than Clinton and Obama, and Clinton having a slightly better chance than Obama...

[Rockholm]

34. Putting a lot of thought in this, eh?

[durrrty libby]

35. Save Bandwith..........Save America...............Stop Posting BullShit

[Carrieyazel]

52. But this isn't B.S, Its a rational analysis of her vulnerabilites in a general election

The conservative-leaning battlegrounds are impossible for her. She's perceived as another mainstream liberal Democrat in moderate "clothing" BY THE REPUKES AND MANY INDEPENDENTS. That's what THEY perceive her as. Her negatives, fed into their brains after 15 years of unrelenting attack will be too much to overcome.
Take Ohio for example. Rural Ohio will come out in droves to vote against her. Many of the same people who voted for Ted Strickland for Gov. will never vote for Hillary. And she'll have trouble in states like Colorado and Nevada. These states are difficult for any Dem to win in a presidential election. And we're expecting a flawed candidate like Hillary to win them in a general?

[durrrty libby]

71. pffft........ can..not...comprehend....bull shit...eyes...glaze...over

[fightindonkey]

24. Lol, Wanna Bet?

She wins single handily.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Lots Of Suppositions Flying Around...

The survey data suggests Edwards, Clinton, and Obama can defeat their Republican rivals with Edwards having a slightly better chance than the other two...

[Hepburn]

37. You read my mind....totally.

She cannot win...PERIOD. She is disliked intensely by those who we NEED to vote for the Dems in 2008. And she is gonna drag down those in the lower races because of the dislike for her.

Yeah: What the hell are we as Dems doing???? This is nuts, IMO. We are looking to nominate someone who will pretty much insure some total asswipe like Ghouliani or the Mitzer being the next POTUS and that the Repigs will regain control of at least one branch of the Congress.

:puke:

[Carrieyazel]

54. You've hit it right on target. Hillary is a bad national candidate.

Her unlikability, polarizing nature, and years of unrelenting attacks against her, make her a sure bet for defeat. I'm trying to convince others, but they don't want to face her vulnerabilites. She has no upside and will come up short. I hope we don't throw away all the gains we have made and end up nominating her.

[ginchinchili]

64. True. She would have a harder time doing it than several other nominees

She would finally give the right something to get energized about. Why take that risk when there are better candidates?

[AtomicKitten]

28. Never surrender.

[Perry Logan]

30. Apparently, the anti-Hillary folks are really, REALLY frightened of Republicans.

If our candidate doesn't "energize" the other side, isn't she/he a lameassed candidate?

[durrrty libby]

36. Many dems behave like abused spouses when it comes to the repukes

Being afraid of a crumbling, disorganized repuke party is pathetic.

Their most popular candidate is none of the above and dems still cower in the corner.Blech

[depakid]

48. No, apparently we're rational- have some experience

and understand psychology and voter turnout.

Here you've got a person who the far right has literally spent billions demonizing over 15 years- and their ROI shows up in very high negatives. At the same time, the Republican party has a less than motivating set of candidates, which their portion of the electorate may well stay home rather than turn out for.

You also have a Democratic candidate that's alienated the base and the independent voters- which depresses turnout on the Democratic and Democratic leaning side.

Not only does that portent disaster at the federal level- but energizing all the far right to vote against her also means that state and local candidates -along with ballot measures will suffer from her negative coattails.

(Congresses behavior and ratings only make matters worse).

We saw similar things from the mid 1990's 'til 2006- in case anyone remembers.

[ginchinchili]

66. You explained it much better than I did

American's have such short memories. They've already forgotten that after 8 good years of Clinton/Gore, they were able to beat the best qualified man to be president with a moron. You never let your guard down in an election against the Republicans, especially the presidential election.

[ginchinchili]

65. It's because we are more aware and realistic about the political landscape

And, no, what you're suggesting in effect is that Republicans and a good many Independents have the same energy level every election. There's positive energy: a very popular candidate, the appearance of a good chance of winning, or a Democratic candidate they abhor, like Hillary, and there's negative energizing, like their chances looking bleak (which is the Republicans' present situation), they have not good candidates, or the recognition that the Democratic candidate is really good.

For example, there a contingent of the religious right who are considering voting for a 3rd party candidate. It's because they are not energized toward, in particular, Giuliani. They may do that, but it's highly unlikely, especially if Hillary gets the nomination. It's just a political power play. In the eyes of many people on the right, seeing Hillary elected to the White House is like seeing the anti-christ as our Commander in Chief. They are more worried about Hillary selecting a Supreme Court Justice than one any other candidate might choose, just as an example. Whether they can mobilize enough to beat her is anyone guess, but make no mistake, they will be much more motivated to come out and vote against her than any other Democratic candidate. Considering that she's not the best qualified candidate, why give the Republicans such a gift?

[LWolf]

32. Start?

I don't know what kind of further hell I'm supposed to raise other than refusing to support her, and saying so, quite clearly, since before she declared her candidacy.

I won't be stuck; I will simply walk through the door and choose someone else in the GE.

[Dawgs]

38. Agree with your second part.

The door is opening, not closing. Did you see her vote on the Lieberman bill last week? Did you see her poor performance in the debate?

Blind love for Bill's presidency and the nineties is what will kill are chances in 2008. If she was a man or not married to Bill she would get nowhere near the WH.

[MethuenProgressive]

40. The only way the GOP beats Clinton is with Democratic help.

Edwards and Obama just aren't tough enough to withstand the GOP attacks.

[ginchinchili]

67. Just because we don't want her as our candidate doesn't mean ...

we're siding with the Republicans.

[zulchzulu]

42. 3 months away is a long time...

Ask President Gephardt.

[murbley40]

44. K&R

[Zandor]

46. Rise now or be engulfed by evil!

:rofl:

[Kolesar]

53. Who do you love?

Who do you love?

[superkia]

55. A vote for Clinton is a vote for war! I pray she isnt our leader.

[sentelle]

58. someone 'splain to me

How does the door get shut before a single vote is cast? Who, exactly shuts this door? The media?

We are the one who cast votes, not the media. We elect the president, not some media company, not some opinion maker.

US.

I still believe in an America where we determine the president. We need to reject those who represent only those Americans with 'inc.' In their names. Only then can we (we americans) take back America.

[Exultant Democracy]

70. For serious. People need to get real, it is like they have never seen a primary before

[Sparkly]

61. The door doesn't close before the voting even starts.

There's plenty of history to tell us that.

[Imagevision]

69. Hillary says, vote for me - I'll end the Iraq war, then two months later

she finishes her statement by saying she would expecet to bring the troops home at the end of her first term in office --> 2013, meanwhile the US. continueing to send 50 billion every 90 days and Bush wants 200 billion before he leaves office so Halliburton can be guranteed there $$$ thru Bush's term.