I don't care if Hillary drags down other candidates

[sampsonblk]

That's such a bogus argument. Hillary will almost surely drag down candidates in red states. Most of the deep-down Hillary haters are concentrated there (not counting the ones at DU). Well guess what? ANY woman we nominate will be a drag in red states, and ANY black man we nominate will pose a danger to red state candidates.

I don't give a fuck. What should we do? Find ourselves an acquiescent Baptist white guy who smiles a lot and doesn't say much? The hell with that!

Its time to let that shit go. We nominate who we nominate, and let the chips fall where they may. Right now, the GOP is hostage to the RW religious wackos. Can't do shit without them. Do we want to be hostage to those red state voters who dislike the GOP but hate liberals, Hillary, gays, etc?

A liberal red stater will stand with us. Fuck the rest of them.

[JuniperLea]

1. I disagree

I really only hate Hillary now because of all the Hillary flag wavers making her a daily pain in the arse here.

It's not because she is a woman... I don't believe that at all.

[sampsonblk]

25. You don't thnk Hillary's gender is any factor in the bible belt?

[JuniperLea]

28. Nope

And an informal poll of my relatives in Tennesee, Kentucky, Louisianna and North Carolina says the same. I have a very, very large family... most of which live in the South.

[sampsonblk]

31. Let's agree to disagree

My experience is that gender and race are both factors in the south.

[niceypoo]

64. So, southern bigots wont vote for Hillary, thus she shouldn't be the candidate?

As if she needs to woo the southern good ol boy vote? Um, hate to tell you this but southern bigots that believe women should be doormats WONT VOTE FOR ANY DEMOCRAT. Stop worring about trying to woo republicans.

[sampsonblk]

65. That wasn't very niceypoo at all

We are on the same side. Read my OP.

[Evergreen Emerald]

48. That's funny

the reason I stick up for her is because of all the irrational vitriolic hatred that is spewed from dawn to dusk. I often wonder who is faxing them the talking points

[niceypoo]

63. Some very, very shallow reasoning for hating Hillary around here...

'Hateing' her because people toot her horn? How many threads toot Hillarys horn vs threads that attack her? Perhaps 1-4?

[JuniperLea]

76. How rude

I'm making it a practice to hide all the Hill threads, pro and con.

But I'm not putting individuals on ignore, even the rude ones, because I choose to live and learn from fools and from sages.

[saracat]

2. I care about those Dem red state candidates but though I do not s Hillary I have never sen evidence

she would drag the down line anymore than anyone else. Who has been claiming that?

[knight_of_the_star]

3. Its not because she's a woman

Its because it is specifically HER that I have issues with.

[HeraldSquare212]

4. "We nominate who we nominate...

and let the chips fall where they may"? Then why nominate Clinton? Her main virtue is alleged electability.

[sampsonblk]

24. All the candidates have several virtues

We are in good hands this cycle. Just my opinion.

[gateley]

58. And I am in total agreement. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

5. I Saw That Man On Tucker

I won't say what candidate he was pimping because I'm tired and not interested in a flame war... This nation is no longer the province of White Anglo Saxon men...Their day is done...

What a despicable campaign pitch...Vote for the white Protestant because the black guy or white woman can't win...I'm not teaching my kids that...

If someone won't vote for a woman or an African American they won't vote for a Democrat either... There are probably two hundred or so congressional districts beyond the reach of any candidate...

[durrrty libby]

6. That guy was right out of the 50's. Scary

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. And Tucker Didn't Even Challenge Him...

Al Gore was a child of the south... A lot of good that did him in 00...

[geek tragedy]

10. Was it Mudcat? eom

[sampsonblk]

27. Yep, I heard that chump, that's why I started this thread

That guy's a friggin clown. What was his name? Mud-something? Very appropriate.

[RC]

7. My feelings toward Hillary don't go past loathe.

She is too far to the right of center. bu$h and his backers have stretched the space time continuum all out of shape. It only looks as if she is anywhere close to center. She is not.
We need someone close to the real center. Someone who will listen to the main stream of this country and do their bidding.
HRC will let to much of the neo-con damage stand.
We must end this war and go after the war profiteers and begin repair of the damage that the bu$h administration has done to this country, out reputation and to the world.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Fine

The thread was started to rebut the assertion that nominating a black guy or a white woman will cost the Democrats the House, the Senate, and the White House... A guest on the Tucker show basically blackmailed the Democratic party; nominate a black guy or white woman and you lose everything...

That's what is being debated here...

[illinoisprogressive]

9. Known fact that she will lose democrats chances in the south and the west.

[illinoisprogressive]

11. Mudcat sanders is one of the most respected democratic operatives in the business

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. This Mudcat Sanders

“Mudcat” Sanders is a consultant who seems to think that the problem with the Democratic Party is that it isn’t Southern enough:

It looks like the Democratic Party in Alabama has taken Sanders advice to heart — they certainly are tolerant of the white, conservative males of the state. They also highlight why no one with an ounce of sense should listen to Sanders: he is wrong. The Confederacy was based on hate, racism, and the institution of slavery. Its defeat was perhaps the single greatest moment in US history until the Civil Rights movement. No one should be proud of their ancestors who fought to keep other men enslaved, no matter how brave or honorable they were. Intruding the state between women and their doctors is wrong. Homophobia is wrong. Denying citizens their basic rights is wrong. Imposing one religion on the other is wrong. If we were to base our appeal to Southern white males on the acceptance of those wrongs, then we would be throwing away too much of what is good about the Democratic Party.

http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2006/08/28/5634/

[durrrty libby]

17. "respected democratic operative" Jesus what tripe.

Just when you think it can't get more ridiculous...it does

[DemocratSinceBirth]

21. When I Was A Kid

When I was a kid growing up if Florida I used to see license plates that said "Put Your Heart In Dixie Or Get Your Ass Out."

That's Mudcat's phliosophy, it seems...

[FrenchieCat]

16. Sure he is.....

Mudcat's the one that believes that his candidate is most "electable" simply because his candidate is White and from the south.

If you think that Mudcat believes that Obama is anymore "electable" than is Hillary, you've got another thing coming. If Obama was leading, Mudcat would be complaining that Obama would be a drag on the ticket down during the election. It's called the "Nothing-but-a-White-man-will-do" Mudcat Election strategery!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. He Was Indirectly Slamming Obama On Tucker Too

eom

[Cameron27]

22. That's him,

and he's not shy about targeting the "bubba" vote.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

23. We Had A "Bubba" On The Ticket In 00 And 04

And We Were 0 for 26 in the South...

[emilyg]

30. Tell me you didn't type that?

[ronnykmarshall]

49. Anything to bash Hillary ...

It could come from Rush and Miss Thang would repeat it.

[William769]

70. Didn't you know?

That is Rush in drag!

[calteacherguy]

19. .

:rofl:

What a ludicrous comment.

[Perry Logan]

14. Why even discuss the arguments used by the anti-Hillarites? It's like dumb and dumber.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. Desperate People Do Desperate Things

It's embarrassing watching them...

[calteacherguy]

18. She won't drag down other candidates. Don't buy into the media hype. nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

50. No, she wouldn't.

In fact, many progressives I've spoken to suggest that they will vote the Dem ticket up to, but not including, Hillary. If she's the nominee it is not inconceivable that we would solidify our hold on both House and Senate, and still lose the WH.

[calteacherguy]

56. You are living in an alternate universe if you believe that nonsense. Seriously, dude. nt

[hfojvt]

26. speaking as a liberal red stater

I expect to have a Republican congressperson to replace the Blue Dog I just helped elect in 2006. Hillary is hated in Kansas, not because she's a woman, but because she's Hillary. Our Governor is a woman as are both our local state reps, and our new Congresswoman. Her opponent may very well be a woman, depending on the Republican primary - Ryun vs. State Treasurer Lynn Jenkins.

It is kind of a bogus argument, but on the other hand, I do not know what Hillary expects to accomplish if she gets elected, but turns Congress red. That may not happen, but I expect her nomination to make my job of re-electing my rep that much harder, if not impossible.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

29. It's Kind Of Hard To See Hillary Turning Congress Red While Winning The Election

eom

[w4rma]

32. Hillary can't win the general election, either. (nt)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. Repeating A False Meme Does Not Make It True

DSB

[obnoxiousdrunk]

55. bull just plain bull

[hfojvt]

34. why not? A good part of our win here in 2006 was due to lower turnout

If a Hillary candidacy sends thems running to the polls in the red states, it's likely to undermine our congressional candidate, and mine is probably not the only district where that is true.

Check past history

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=3460552#3460801

and my follow-up in post #71

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. GOP Identification Is At Its Lowest In A Generation

Some enterprising DUer can supply the link...

Hillary Clinton will beat her GOP opponent like a drum and her effect on down ballot races will be no better or worse than John Edwards or Barack Obama who imho are the only candidates with a realistic chance of garnering the nomination...

[hfojvt]

40. saying so, does not make it true

I gave my niece a picture of Bill Clinton and her friend snickered and made a sex joke. Does Edwards have that kind of baggage? Hillary put forth almost the same plan as Edwards, which generated more attacks in the press? Which one is going to have to work harder to avoid the label 'Hillarycare' which was so wildly successful for Republicans in 1994? No other candidate can inspire the Republican grassroots at the same time as they disgust the Progressive base.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. You Must Not Listen To Much Right Wing Radio

It's despicable but the right thinks Edwards is soft and Hillary is more of a man than he is...

[sampsonblk]

67. Bill Clinton is at 70% approval

As for Mrs Clinton having to work hard to defend her health care plan, she is up to the task.

The first time around, the GOP claimed the health care problems weren't that serious. Fifteen years later, everyone knows its a problem we have to address immediately - and not a single GOP candidate has a record of caring about the issue during the intervening years.

We are in good shape with Hillary Clinton.

[ShortnFiery]

36. "Other Candidates?" Hell, HRC would drag down the ENTIRE democratic party as she implodes.

:(

If so, I only hope we can arise from the ashes after we've SHED the DLC. :shrug:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Repeating A False Meme Does Not Make It True

Do you guys meet in a telephone booth and then come here?

Your meme is hackneyed and cliched...

Respectfully, ShortNFiery, I like you but you need some new material...

Maybe "Don't vote for Hillary...She has halitosis"....

[nolabels]

66. Hillary has halitosis? Isn't that the similar to bad breath?

You failed to address the issue of a Hillary already on the tee, ready to be knocked out of the park? Some people have principles and none of hers (so far) appeal to me. Instead of ignoring reality i choose to understand what a donkey really signifies. On the bright side at least this will be last time we have to deal with any more Clintons or any of their associates running :shrug:

[zulchzulu]

38. Acting like the GOP base will not be empowered by the Clinton candidacy...

...is foolish in my view.

It's pretty damn obvious to me. And worse, saying that we shouldn't care about what happens to Democrats who have a chance in red states now and leave them for dead is also foolish.

People can support whoever they want. I'm going to support the candidate that is not only good for America, but also good for the Democratic party. There is plenty of crossover support for Obama within the moderate Republicans and Independents. Numerous Republicans that I have met doing grassroots work since last spring say they would vote for Obama, but would never consider voting for Clinton.

I've seen the usual responses from some Clinton supporters here regarding this extremely important issue. I'll be accused of saying GOP talking points, called a sexist or getting advice from Hannity or Limbaugh. That shit is desperate kneejerking sycophantism of the worst kind.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

39. Yet Every Published Poll Shows Clinton Doing As Well As Edwards But Better Than Obama

Now you are going to tell me that I shouldn't trust the polls because the election is thirteen months out but that I should trust the anecdotal and heavily, heavily biased information you are sharing with me...

Please provide me with a link to one published survey that shows one red state that Senator Obama puts in play that Hillary Clinton doesn't...

[zulchzulu]

42. Certainly you recognize that a national poll about a general election a year away is...

...good for political junkies and such, but the dynamics of a presidential race over a year away is impossible to realistically and honestly predict.

Sure, there are some polls where Clinton edges out Obama in a comparison race with Rudy by a few votes, but anyone looking honestly and with clear vision can see that the nomination process is the first building block to a presidential candidacy. I've seen no national poll where it's a blowout with an Clinton/Obama/Edwards matchup.

Quoting national polls about candidates matching up others this far out borders on used car salesman undercoating pitches.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

43. In The Name Of Intellectual Honesty

In the name of intellectual honesty I will concede the limitations of polling this far away from an election... I would expect you to concede the limitations of argument by anecdote as well...


The suggestion that only Clinton is susceptible to right wing attacks is beyond laughable....

The lines of attack on all our candidates by the right are easy to predict...Just listen to five minutes of right wing radio...

[zulchzulu]

46. "Just listen to five minutes of right wing radio..."

I know... I do listen sometimes for a minute or two...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. In Orlando That's All We Get

eom

[sampsonblk]

44. Sorry. I don't care

The GOP base is irrelevant. There are too few of them to do any more harm than they've already done.

Right now is the time to do what we want to do, not to shake in our boots about how the RW will react.

Do you think they are worring tonight about how liberals might perceive Giuliani? Did they worry in 2004 that GW Bush was too polarizing? Hell fucking no. And they never will. They are smarter than that.

In 2004 when we got our asses kicked following the strategy you appear to advocate, there were at least as many of us as there are of them. And they still didn't give a damn how we felt about their candidates, or how their candidates would fare in blue states. They never blinked and they didn't change their national tune to appeal to any of us.

Today, we are at a huge advantage. Why are we to be so dumb as to worry about that stuff every time?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

45. I'm Not Convinced

I'm not convinced the structure of the race changes fundamentally regardless of whether Clinton , Edwards, or Obama are our candidates... After all we have had a southerner on the ticket in 00 and 04 and we are 1-25 or 0-26 in the South...

I don't like folks that are disingenuous and it's disingenuous to say any national Democrat is going to turn more than a few red states blue...

As for down ballot races there has always been divergence between national and local Democrats...

[RaleighNCDUer]

51. C'mon, in 04 the pukes never talked about their candidate,

only about OUR candidate. They played us, with the willing assistance of the DLC, to have us put up the candidate that would be most susceptible to a wide-range smear attack.

And they are doing it again.

[sampsonblk]

52. ...then I suggest we find us a candidate who can fight back

That would be Hillary Clinton. If they smear her, she will kick their butts. In fact, I get the feeling she is just waiting to make an example of somebody.

If we had a Hillary in 2004, Bush would have been out, and would still be an illegitimate president.

[zulchzulu]

53. By "fighting back", do you mean going more right to get their approval?

You are welcome to believe whatever you want. Volunteer for Clinton's campaign. Do whatever you want. See what people say when you stand out there in the real world and face the crowd.

I'll be working for getting Obama to be the next President.

[RaleighNCDUer]

54. Proof?

When has she EVER successfully 'fought back'? She caved on Hillarycare in its first incarnation, and then brought it back to life as a giveaway to the insurance industry. She had no serious opposition for her senate seat. Where is the evidence for her being a political brawler?

BTW, the DLC undercut Dean in 04, leaving us with Kerry, to guarantee that Hillary would have a shot in 08. There is NO evidence that she would have had a chance in 04 - in fact, if she had a chance she would have run then and the fact that she didn't means she knew she had no chance. So stop blowing smoke.

[saracat]

59. Oh she has occasionally fought back in defense of herself or Bill against the vast RW conspiracy but

that is all.She has never given a rats ass about any other Dem.Where was she when Kerry was swiftboated? Where were they when Max Clelan was attacked? Nowhere to be seen And they made it obvious they still supported Lieberman over Ned Lamont, the Democratic Nominee. Yesiree, they are nothing if not self serving when it comes to fighting the RW.And now, they are in bed with Rupert Murdoch, who led the allged "attack" against them. And Hillary is being promoted on Rupert's Fox news. Lovely. And Bill raises no money for Democratic State Parties unless they promise to raise equal amounts for Hillary. Isn't that forcing states to support her by a form of blackmail? There is only so much money to go around and Billary is obsessed with making sure it goes into their coffers no matter what the cost to the Democratic party.

[BrightKnight]

57. I live in a Red state and work with Repugs.

I know a few people that won't vote for her because she is a woman. Almost all of the people I talk to take her seriously. Most people want to hear what she has to say. The RW noise machine has been trash talking her now for so long that a lot of people have just tuned it out.

[Alamom]

61. Interesting. I see the same happening here. People are listening to

what she has to say and the "Trash of the Past" seems to be of little or no interest.

[weeve]

60. Let the chips fall where they may ?!?

In case you haven't heard THREE Supreme Court Justices hope to retire as soon as Bush leaves office.
Unfortunately, they are Stevens, Ginsberg, and Souter.

People ... do NOT nominate the candidate with the MOST negatives, the one who Republicans want more than anyone to be the nominee. This is no time to roll the dice, or make some type of "statement". What don't you understand about 8-1 Supreme Court decisions for decades to come ?!?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. Hillary Is Running A Flawless Campaign And Doing Well In The Polls

I'm sick and tired of people asserting she can't win, without any evidence to buttress their assertion....

[Dawgs]

68. So, you are admitting that Hillary could cost us a few seats in Congress?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. I Think He's Saying A Woman Or An African American Man Might

There has always been some divergence between national and local Democrats...Any party that is broad enough to accommodate Dennis Kucinich and Gene Taylor is bound to have that problem....

[sampsonblk]

75. Thanks. You said it better than I did

[Dawgs]

71. Great!! Another 'all of the Republicans are in the South' so let's just ignore them post.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. I'm All For A Big Tent Philosophy But There Is Only So Much That Can Be Done

We have had southerners on the ticket in 00 and 04 and are 0 and 26 or 1 and 25 in the south...

[sampsonblk]

73. You missed the boat

This is another 'let's do what we do, instead of worrying about what other people will do to us' post.

Like it or not, a lot of people are suggesting that Clinton will energize GOPers in deeply red states. My point is I don't care about that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. He Won't Answer You

His raison d'etre is to malign Hillary Clinton and not exchange ideas or even defend his own...

[Hippo_Tron]

77. Plus if the GOP picks Giuliani or Romney that will cause their own problems in red states

IMO, Giuliani and Romney will win the red states but turnout among the GOP base will be lower than it was in 2004.

Also in terms of costing us, it depends on the circumstances. Senate seats are of great value because we need to get to 60 votes. The more the better with House seats, but the numbers aren't as important, particularly we might lose one or two seats in very red districts because those districts will likely elect complete DINOs who vote with the GOP anyway. The DINOs in the senate will usually at least help us break the filibuster out of party loyalty and that's what matters. In the House where there is no filibuster, they don't matter as much.