I Don't GIve A Fucking Rat's Ass Who Hires Whom

[ruggerson]

As long as they're not hiring felons and serial murderers.

They're trying to get elected.

You don't get anything DONE unless you get elected.

We ARE trying to win this election, so we can actually implement policy change.

Aren't we?

Politics in America in 2008 is a bloodsport, whether you like it or not.

We can either play to WIN or we can get sanctimonious about strategists and advisers and lose the election to yet one more evil Republican who will be laughing at YOU all the way to the ballot box.

Your choice.

[wndycty]

1. Yup and this particular pissing match is silly.

:kick:

[jgraz]

24. Well, it's not really a pissing match. Hillary's pretty much out of piss on this one

Obama has a professional Democratic political consultant as his chief strategist, while Hillary has a PR hack who specializes in "the use of polling operations ... in facilitating coups."

Which one do you feel better about?

[JackRiddler]

54. um... can we be less graphic with the imagery here?

lunch!

[JackRiddler]

55. dupe

[TwilightGardener]

2. LOL! Makin' deals with the Devil...but it's OK, because he might help you get elected...

[wndycty]

3. As a person who works in politics be careful of your glass house. . .

. . .I guarantee if you looked at any national campaign there are more than a few folks (especially at the the local levels) who many people in any particular campaign would be ashamed to be associated with.

[TwilightGardener]

4. Obama's had some unsavory ties with fundraisers and the like--

he's no pure angel, and yet, he didn't make any of them one of his chief advisors...

[calteacherguy]

5. Exactly. This is a non-issue. nt

[saracat]

7. It appears that some think anything to do with Hillary is a "non-issue". That seems to be the

standard meme. Look away. Nothing to see here.Move along. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Yeah. Right.

[tekisui]

13. She's as infallible as the pope, in some people's eyes.

That kind of blind loyalty is what got us in the mess.

[Mojorabbit]

8. It is an issue for me

It shows judgement abilities. I wouldn't hang with someone like that so on a visceral level it bothers me.

[aquart]

11. As to judgement? IT'S WORKING.

So the judgement seems to have been correct.

THAT, on a visceral level, impresses the hell outta me. To walk thru as many minefields as she does daily and remain in one viable candidate piece? Wow!

[Mojorabbit]

12. Perhaps

but there is a thread here with a list of their clients which reads like everything the left is against
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1989034
and a cached copy of their antiunion stance. Yes that bothers me greatly no matter how brilliant everyone says her campaign has been. It shows me that there is a moral line she doesn't mind crossing to reach her goal.

[ruggerson]

14. That is what PR Firms do

they represent people who need public relations advice, often times because they have screwed up - there is not ONE major PR firm that will not have people you find objectionable on their roster of clients.

[Mojorabbit]

15. I am sure there are plenty

who don't have such a vile list of clients.

[Mojorabbit]

21. Did you see this list?

Regimes
Argentina's fascist junta
Indonesian Government
El Salvadorian Government
Nigerian Government
Saudi Arabia - BKSH, a Burson Marsteller subsidiary which deals with government lobbying, was hired on Septmeber 14, to promote Saudi interest in the US following the terrorist attacks
Mexican Government (to promote NAFTA)
Romanian dictator Nicolae Ceaucescu
South Korea (to avoid discussion of human rights issues during the 1988 Olympics)
UNITA - The US sponsored Angolan guerrilla army

Bhopal

Exxon Valdis
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x1988985
If this was a GOP candidate this board would be all over this.

[ruggerson]

25. And Harrison Hickman's company

represents Chesapeake Energy and Lukoil (major polluters) and Goldman Sachs, the heart of cold, evil capitalism, American Express, one of the credit card companies that rips people off, Wellpoint and Blue Cross which steal from sick people, Burger King which poisons our children, Oracle which just sucks for a variety of reasons, and New York Life, an evil insurer.

(Sarcasm)

[Mojorabbit]

31. No comparison at all

and I don't know what those other companies have to do with the discussion. American express rips people off? It is the only credit card I use.

[ruggerson]

34. For people that have been damaged by any of the

companies listed, there is indeed a comparison.

My point remains: don't shoot yourself in the foot. Nothing will change if we don't win this election.

[Mojorabbit]

35. No look at the list I posted above

There is no comparison. I agree we need to win the election but I won't give anyone a pass that hobnobs with people who would do business in such a vile way.

[jgraz]

33. The question is not about a PR firm, it's about why a PR firm is running Hillary's campaign

Other candidates have real political consultants filling that role. Hillary has a pollster and PR hack whose chief accomplishment has been "a pioneering role in the use of polling operations, especially 'exit polls,' in facilitating coups."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Penn%2C_Schoen_%26_Berland

[noamnety]

38. PR firms are not like District Attorneys.

They get to pick their clients. They don't have to represent scum; it's a choice.

The last free-lance job I picked up, a graphics job, the very first bit of correspondence I sent to them included a question asking who exactly the work was for, because I wasn't going to waste my time bidding on a job if it violated my ethics.

The CEO in this case contributed towards genocide. His hands aren't any cleaner than those in a death squad.

If he was representing firms who had "screwed up" which is a nice euphemism for killing people in a calculating and deliberate way, by demanding that they make restitutions in every way possible, then you might have an argument here, that he was fighting for social justice in some vague way.

Given the circumstances, she may as well have just hired the mob, as far as I'm concerned. And then said "that's no reflection of who I am, or my values, promise."

[emilyg]

20. Good post.

[aquart]

9. Uh, yeah.

Which is why I won't go near a candidate who doesn't understand that.

[TwilightGardener]

17. That's fine. I would like a President who demonstrates ethics, not a zeal for naked

ambition and power, and a "whatever it takes" attitude to get there. But it's OK if you don't.

[ruggerson]

18. I'd like both

a candidate who has real goals and a defined worldview and is also a take-no-prisoners master campaigner, surrounded by a bevy of world class, cutthroat political strategists.

It would also help if the candidate understands deeply, in their core, that politics is all about what you can actually hope to achieve - the art of the possible. In other words, it would help if the candidate is a grownup.

[TwilightGardener]

19. "Bevy of abhorrent assholes" is what you meant to say. Karl Rove types. No thanks.

[ruggerson]

22. no that's not what I meant to say

I wrote exactly what I meant to say. I'm sorry you don't like how politics works and what it takes to win, but banging your head against the wall and screaming doesn't change anything. Winning and implementing policy change does.

[TwilightGardener]

23. I'm not banging my head and screaming. Just not voting for "your girl", that's all--she's got dirty

hands.

[ruggerson]

26. Where did I ask you to vote for someone?

This thread is about winning the election, whether it's Edwards, Clinton or Obama or (insert Democrat here).

[TwilightGardener]

27. Didn't say you did--just telling you my reaction to news like this.

Whomever wins, wins. I will vote for Obama in the primary, and whatever happens after that, happens. It's a shame I can't feel good about Hillary being the probable nominee, but that's the way it goes.

[saracat]

6. If politics in America is bloodsport it is fair game to attack Hillary's strategist!

What you object to is any other campaign playing to "WIN". Penn has been criticized before.He has always been a suspicious choice.All of this goes right along with the Kyl/Lieberman vote that cannot be argued away. It is not okay for a campaign to do or say anything in order to win. I do not want a candidate that views human life as a political expediency.

If Hillary is the nominee we will already have no choice at the ballot box.

[ruggerson]

10. Get real

I want ALL of our candidates to play to win. Where have I stated otherwise?
You do nothing but throw negative crap at your own side. What we are trying to do is win an election. Whomever our nominee is, and I hope it's Edwards or Clinton, will need all of us to mobilize behind them in order to beat the Republics. There is not a single Democrat that views human life as a political expediency. If you think that there is no difference between Hillary and (name your favorite Republican), then you don't even begin to understand who she is or how the federal government operates. Your anti Hillary venom is counter productive and puerile. Have a great day!

[saracat]

16. You too! And Hillary is not on my side.

[HughMoran]

28. I want to be a sanctimonious blowhard

:rofl:

[Moochy]

56. This seems to be the thread for hard-blown sanctimony n/t

[jillan]

29. You need to think about this - who they hire now has a direct connection as to who is going to be

looking for favors when that candidate is elected.

[noamnety]

50. Not only that

But I am willing to go out on a limb here and guess that if her campaign strategist is responsible for blackwater's PR image, she's not gonna be getting any campaign advice that says "speak out about the need to pull blackwater out of Iraq, speak out about their corruption, make it a campaign issue."

[lostnotforgotten]

30. Well I Do Give A Fucking Damn Because It Is Indicative Of Character

You are known by the people you associate with.

Oldest indicator in the book.

Hillary fails!

[NI4NI]

32. Here's what pisses off

The repugs will slime and smear, lie, and make up crap about individual Dems and our Party as a whole .....

The Dems are either put on the defensive right away, after failing to label a liar as "a liar" a hundred times over publically; they seem to think that smears won't stick....until they do.

On the other hand......there seems to be plenty of actual legitimate issues, policies, and character flaws about repubs that indvidual Dems, AND as a whole PARTY won't publically attack and expose.

Bloggers will.....Keith Olberman will, and a few other pundits will also....but the official PARTY line won't.

Ruggerson is right, 2007/08 politics is bloodsport.....the Repugs made it that way long before Bill Clinton; but my Party representatives think it's just a debate; and it's no wonder my PARTY is considered soft.

IMO....As long as we aren't smearing anyone with a dispicably blantant outright lie, getting down nasty and dirty in the gutter during this campaign is a neccessity.....no matter who gets hired for the job; and that doesn't mean that the Democratic Party can't or won't cleanse themselves and this country off after kicking and clawing and eye gouging to prevent the continuance of the unconstitutional crap and corruption that's been going on in our country.....but only after they get elected first.

I believe they will....IF ELECTED.

[The Backlash Cometh]

36. Two words for you: Karl Rove.

Three more words for you: Carville post 1998.

[incapsulated]

37. Like a lot when it comes to the Clintons, I have two responses...

First I'm kinda shocked. Then I think... smart move.

She basically hired the guy from "Thank You For Smoking" who could sell fire to the devil to sell Hillary to a country that has a lot of preconceived notions about her. Not the ones on DU, guys. For instance, in the real world, people believed Hillary was a flaming liberal.

[killbotfactory]

39. We'd be better off if all our candidates weren't tied at the hip

to a union busting, blackwater defending, pro-corporate huckster.

[druidity33]

40. I do. nt

[Forkboy]

41. What if it was someone anti-gay?

Still no problem?

[ruggerson]

44. Still no problem

They are political strategists. They are not the candidate. All the leading Dem candidates are good enough on human rights/women's rights/civil rights as far as I'm concerned. Not perfect, but polar opposites from the Republicans.

Besides which, I would never be a one issue voter. I care deeply about equal rights, but I also care deeply about the environment and healthcare and getting good judges on the federal bench.

[Forkboy]

46. That undercuts the concern you show here for those issues then.

It would be hard for me to take your posts about gay issues here seriously if I knew you could support someone like that as a means to an end.And it'll be real hard now for you to convince me you care about labor issues for the same reason. :shrug:

I do appreciate that you're not a one issue voter as I'm not either.But at some point you have to decide if the end is worth the means, and what it costs you to get to that end.There's no right or wrong answer because it'll vary from person to person.But there's a price I've decided I wont pay, and stuff like this issue are one of those prices.And this would bother me a lot regardless of which candidate hired him.

[ruggerson]

48. As I've said repeatedly

I disagree with the "fall on your own sword" crowd - there is plenty of faux bravado in rigid, ideological purity tests, but no results. All that happens is you lose elections.

The Republics have known for forty years how to be tough political strategists. If we are to compete we have to be just as tough, if not tougher. You don't get anything done if you lose. You don't get to implement policy change.

I don't know how to make it any clearer to you. The stakes are too damn high, and this country is in too much trouble, to moan and wail over some of the clients who are represented by a subsidiary of the public relations firm that CLinton's pollster heads.

It's totally ridiculous.

[ProudDad]

52. You lie down with dogs -- you get up with fleas (n/t)

[ruggerson]

53. Profound and moving n/t

[sampsonblk]

42. No thank you

A person who hires scum to get elected is not a person who is running to improve policy. That's a person who is getting elected for their own reasons.

And no, you don't have to get elected to change policy.

[Bluebear]

43. I do. BM has a "health care unit". Is BM influencing Clinton's "health plan" for instance?

'However, American and Canadian pharmaceutical and insurance companies that want to crack open the Canadian market are frustrated by the fact that Canadians are very happy with their health care system. Worse yet, more and more Americans, especially in Vermont, are now calling for the introduction of single-payer health insurance in their country--a step in the direction of a Canadian-style system. This presents a grave problem for neoliberal demagogues, since it exposes the basic conflict between capitalism and democracy.

Enter Burson-Marsteller's health care unit, whose staff includes "a medical doctor/physician; former FDA (Food and Drug Administration) commissioner; former hospital administrator; former pharmaceutical communications executives; former non-profit communications chiefs; grassroots specialists, and former reporters" according to the senior editor of O'Dwyer's newsletter, which monitors the PR business.

B-M has plenty of experience in matters of public health. On behalf of client Philip Morris, B-M created the National Smokers' Alliance (NSA) to fight against smoking restrictions. According to John Stauber and Sheldon Rampton, the NSA "is a state-of-the-art campaign that uses full- page newspaper ads, direct telemarketing, paid canvassers, (toll free) numbers and newsletters to bring thousands of smokers into its ranks each week. By 1995 NSA claimed a membership of 3 million smokers". The NSA is headed by B-M vice-president Thomas Humber and its members include B-M executives Pierre Salinger and Kennetz Rietz, as well as Peter Kelly, senior partner of B-M subsidiary Black, Manafort, Stone & Kelly (see sidebar). In addition to this, B-M was hired by the A.H. Robbins company when its Dalkon Shield IUD contraceptive injured thousands of women who used it, and it is now currently promoting the 'virtues' of Eli Lilly's anti-depressant wonder drug Prozac.'

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

47. Bill Clinton's A Sex Offender ?

Must have missed that trial and ajudication... Was it held on Hannity's show or Limbaugh's?

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

49. DSB, off topic, but you might enjoy this one for your hall of haters:

From a GD thread:

"Emily's List endorses war mongers and imperialists."

The Kulaks better watch there step cause I don't like where this is going.

[ProudDad]

51. Not going to bring up Goe**les

Not going to bring up Goeb**es....

Ain't gonna do it... wouldn't be prudent...

mark penn isn't quite G**bbles...












He's worse...

[Gman]

57. Thank you

I just want to win. I've been accused here of advocating some horrible campaign things that Bush does (as if that's a bad thing) such as intimidating your opponent, beating them down at every opportunity. ("That makes us no better than Bush") Well you know what? Karl Rove IS the master. We need to learn all we can from Karl Rove. We need to invent things that Rove never thought of but would say, "Yeah, that's it!"

I don't give a damn either who gets hired or what their history is. I want to win and will do whatever it takes to get it done, ethical or not. Ethical or not is no longer an issue since the Right Wing Revolution of 2000. Since 2000 there have been no rules although we have insisted on "playing by the rules". Fuck that! We need to do the counter-revolutionary things that need to be done to get this country back on track.

Morals? Screw that. This is a counter-revolution. We can reestablish morals after we overthrow this regime and those that support it. When are people here going to understand that this is a counter-revolution?

[ruggerson]

61. I've come to the conclusion that there is a sizable faction here

that does not want to win back the White House. They would rather glory in their anger and anguish and type furious screeds on a message board.

[Gman]

65. It's the same old thing with the progressives that goes back decades now

they'd rather be right than win. Probably has a lot to do with the fact that very few progressives get elected to anything. The ones that do know how to play the political game that needs to be played in order to win.

[MadHound]

58. So a corporate warmonger like Penn is OK when he's working for your side

But Karl Rove is evil scum because he worked for Bush?

Sorry, but your disconnect is stunning, and your failure to realize the influence this man plays on Hillary and her campaign is stunning.

As the old adage goes, you can tell a lot about a person by the company they keep.

[ruggerson]

64. See post # 63

n/t

[sniffa]

59. i don't care who hiLLary hires either

i hope she continues to surround herseLf with simiLar shitbags.

[noamnety]

60. If Hillary actually hires Karl Rove as her manager next month

Not someone like him, but actually hires Rove himself, will you be proud about that, cause it shows she's playing to win?

[ruggerson]

68. That's a stretch as a hypothetical

because why would Karl Rove sign on with someone who is at odds with his agenda. But, if you're asking would I support her hiring someone who employs Rove like tactics to win elections - absolutely.

[KittyWampus]

62. So apparently you don't believe there are any other consultants Hillary could hire who don't

have a completely reprehensible client list?

[ruggerson]

63. Let me take you back in time

to election 2000. Now, just for argument's sake, let's say we could reinstate Mark Penn as Al Gore's advisor - and as a result, Gore wins Florida, and the election, decisively.

President Gore, in 2001, in response to 9/11, invades Afghanistan and captures Osama Bin Laden and the leadership of Al Queda.

No Iraq war.

No 4000 American kids dead.

No Samuel ALito or John Roberts

Plenty of federal funds for stem cell research

Healthcare for poor children

The list is endless.

In this scenario, would you rather have Al Gore fire Mark Penn and lose or keep him on and win?

[KittyWampus]

66. You still failed to answer my question. Is Penn the only consultant or PR hack in the USA?

[ruggerson]

67. No, she could hire anyone she wants. She obviously, to this date, wants Penn

Now answer mine.