I like Hillary,

[Labors of Hercules]

I didn't think I would like her, but shutting out all the shit opinions flying over the media and concentrating on what she says and how she says it, I do. She is a strong candidate with an incredible brainpan and exceptional personal appeal.

I am convinced that Hillary is the second of two people who, should one of them ascend to the presidency, will make the best decisions on behalf of humanity.

Of course, the first person is somewhat obvious, but he hasn't announced yet... *waiting* :smoke:

[rhett o rick]

1. We need a president that will reestablish the Bill of Rights. Will she? nm

[Whoa_Nelly]

2. Yup! And we need a president who will uphold and protect the Constitution

and not go to bed with the corporate.

Will she uphold and protect the Constitution?

She's already in bed with the corporate.

[MGKrebs]

16. You want to dismantle corporations?

I don't get your meaning.

[Whoa_Nelly]

21. And I don't get your question...

In what way dod I construe that I want to dismantle corporations?

I think the more comprehensive inference I am referring to is that those who seek the presidency should not seek approval of corporations, as those are the driving force behind changing and dismantling the foundation of our nation: It's not how many citizens vote or protest anymore. It's all about who has the most monetary clout.

And, because of the corporate ownership of so much that passes as legislation in our Congress, the American people are held hostage, made to live their lives in increasing debt and lack of health care and more, all by the corporate greed and hubris.

Hillary and Murdoch (as an example)
http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/10/murdoch-hillary-fundraiser-cx_gl_0510autofacescan07.html

Another example:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/hillary-clinton-the-hos_b_24871.html

Hillary Clinton & the Hostile Takeover of the Health Care Debate

<snip>
The piece details how "Clinton is receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions" from the health care industry. "Nationwide, she is the No. 2 recipient of donations from the industry, trailing only Senator Rick Santorum of Pennsylvania, a member of the Republican leadership," the Times notes. The piece goes on to detail how industry executives now publicly praise Clinton for her willingness to back off pushing for major health care reform as she did back in the early 1990s.

The health care industry, of course, has a lot of money to spread around to politicians who have their hand out. This is the industry that the Wall Street Journal this week reported "was the biggest spender for the seventh year in a row, with more than $356 million in 2005." So the fact that health insurance and pharmaceutical executives are throwing cash at Clinton is no surprise.

<snip>
"Frederick H. Graefe, a health care lawyer and lobbyist in Washington for more than 20 years, said, 'People in many industries, including health care, are contributing to Senator Clinton today because they fully expect she will be the Democratic presidential nominee in 2008.' 'If the usual rules apply,' Mr. Graefe said, early donors will 'get a seat at the table when health care and other issues are discussed.'"

[MGKrebs]

23. 83% of Hillary's donations come from individual donations.

What are we to think of that?

You don't think health care professionals should get a seat at the health care reform table?

Still not quite clear on what you mean by "in bed with the corporate". Is there something specific about that which is wrong? Are you saying she doesn't look out for ordinary people or something?

One day we are lamenting the loss of manufacturing jobs overseas, and the next day we complain about candidates who don't shut out corporations from the process.

[rhett o rick]

32. Interesting statistic. You didn't think corporations would give her money directly did you?

The statistic doesn't tell us who these individuals are, probably not working middle class Americans.

If HRC supports ordinary people, please give some examples. And please, please spare my the 25 cent an hour minimum wage increase. Many states already had that.

No one said that we want corporations "shut out", but controlled so they will stop raping the working class. Does HRC support tariffs?

Just curious, are you a Libertarian?

[MGKrebs]

36. Isn't it your turn to justify your statement?

"You didn't think corporations would give her money directly did you?"
Of course not. That would be illegal. But what is your assertion based on?

What makes you think she is "in bed" with corporations?

And what does that even mean anyway?

"Probably" not working class Americans"? wtf?

[rhett o rick]

37. Ok, let's start over. What were you implying when you mentioned that 83% of

her contributions came from individuals? Were you implying that she isn't influenced by corporations because of that statistic? Why did you mention that statistic?

I haven't seen much evidence that she supports working class Americans. If you have some evidence, I will certainly appreciate it.

Believe me I wish to high heaven that she will repeal the Patriot Act and the MCA, and the she will stop domestic spying, and torture, and reestablish habeas corpus and close the secret prisons, and the interment prisons like in Taylor Texas, but she has not said she will do any of those things. Will she repeal CAFTA, NAFTA and institute tariffs? These are the things that will save the middle class. Has she committed to any?

Please tell me what she has committed to do to save democracy and the middle class.

Are you a Libertarian? Just curious.

[MGKrebs]

38. No I'm not a Libertarian.

I am a member of my county and state Dem parties. However, I don't share the Pavlovian reaction that allows me to condemn all corporations with broad brush strokes of evil.

You seem to think that Hillary Clinton is "in bed" with corporations, and I was responding to that. I still don't know what gives you the impression and I'm still not even sure what you mean by it.

Clinton voted against CAFTA. Not sure if she would repeal it.

Clinton has issued a statement agreeing with that stupid MoveOn statement promising to uphold the oath of office.

She will try to arrange healthcare for everyone, she is a friend of labor, she is an advocate for public education, and she has promised to end the war. That's all pretty middle class stuff.

[MGKrebs]

40. I would also like to add,

now that I have another minute, that I have nearly socialist IDEALS, but I have come to recognize that there are many other people who do not yet share those ideals, and short of revolution, the way to reach those ideals therefore is step by step, city council by city council, state rep by state rep, neighbor by neighbor. Until we have built a constituency that will accept more progressive principles, we will not be able to get more progressive candidates elected (ignoring the temporary shifts due to Repub screw-ups).

When a heroic candidate comes along who can convince a massive number of people all at once that progressive principles are the way to go, I think I will recognize them. But none of these presidential candidates are it. This will be an incremental change in leadership no matter who wins. Candidates don't have the luxury of pursuing their ideals in a vacuum. They have to get elected and they (supposedly) have to serve everybody. The fact is, the country is divided right now, and insisting on purity of principle at this moment in time is a losing strategy in presidential politics imo. If we get adjustments to make NAFTA a little fairer, sign on to Kyoto, adjust or get rid of NCLB, support labor a little more, and take a big step toward healthcare coverage for everybody, I'll be happy.... and keep working for more.

Presumably, Planned Parenthood and the ACLU and the unions won't get banned if a Dem gets elected, so we'll still have plenty of avenues through which to pursue our greater goals. I think we sometimes put too much stock in what a president can actually accomplish, and I even view as a bit of a failure to accept responsibility that ultimately, WE are the boss. WE have to build the constituency we want.

[cobalt1999]

3. I agree with you.

I have confidence that Hillary can start fixing the problems Bush has caused. Of course, if Gore should enter the race, I'd jump on his bandwagon so fast your head would spin.

[rhett o rick]

5. What gives you that idea? Has she stated that she will repair our Constitution? nm

[cobalt1999]

6. Yes,

She has taken the oath to protect the constitution as a senator and she will do the same when taking the oath as president.

[Whoa_Nelly]

8. Bush took that oath, too

Taking that oath no longer precludes that it will be followed.

Actions speak louder than words.

[cobalt1999]

20. We'll have to see when she is president to see..

what actions she takes.

I trust her to take her oath more seriously than Bush.

[Whoa_Nelly]

22. Would you please elaborate on why you trust her?

Honestly, I really want to know.

[cobalt1999]

24. She's never given me reason to not trust her.

Just because I don't always agree with her, I haven't seen her pledge one thing and do another. I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to campaign promises, so I do notice when a politician does/says something they know won't be totally popular...that means they aren't just saying or doing what people want to hear.

I trust her as much as I can trust any politician, and I'm not saying she is more trustworthy than Obama or Edwards (to me they are all about the same).

[rhett o rick]

14. Protect is subjective. Has she stated she will eliminate domestic spying?

Or reestablish habeas corpus, or stop all torture, or eliminate the apparent power in signing statements, repeal the MCA, or repeal the Patriot Act, or close the secret prisons. If she has made a stand on ANY of these issues I haven't noticed.

Maybe she is looking forward to having the unitary executive powers like King George.

[cobalt1999]

18. "Maybe she is looking forward to having the unitary executive powers.."

Or, maybe she isn't.

Those all happened during the Bush admin, not the Bill Clinton admin, and, yes, I expect her to fix all those things.

[rhett o rick]

28. Right on! She mite or mite not, she has failed to tell us how she stands onsuch an important issue.

It doesn't matter who disassembled the Constitution, only matters who will fix it. Such an important issue deserves dialog. I don't believe for one second that any President that is handed the extra powers will voluntarily give them up. We need to get a pledge from her first.

Please be skeptical, don't blindly believe she will do what's right, especially if she doesn't think it is important enough to make a campaign issue of it.

Repairing the Constitution is the most important issue before us.

[cobalt1999]

34. same goes for every candidate.

As long as you make the same assumptions for every candidate you are making for Hillary, fine.

[ShortnFiery]

30. HRC and the DLC will nurture those added executive powers with Poppy's advice.

:scared:

[cobalt1999]

35. bit of leap to conclusions there.

But I guess that's par for the course around here. Amazingly the other candidates don't have to live up to the same standards.

[papau]

19. Hillary's letter to "American Freedom" states her desire to uphold our Constitution

The letter is a good read - as is the American Freedom (a "far" left/liberal/anti-war group) site

[rhett o rick]

31. Of course she says that, so did King George of Bush. I think he truly believes he is upholding

the Constitution. But to pledge to uphold isn't enough. We need a pledge to restore habeas corpus and the other freedoms that have been taken away.

[papau]

33. I agree - and in the next debate that question should be asked n/t

n/t

[MGKrebs]

26. Well if you don't believe the oath, what the hell difference would it make

to you if she made a "statement"?

Jeez.

[Carrieyazel]

4. But in order to win a general, she has to have numerous Indeps like her

and that isn't going to happen. And of course, the Repukes despise her and she'll get the lowest crossover vote ever if nominated.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

11. Here's A Good Site For You To Read

http://www.worsleyschool.net/socialarts/factopinion/factopinion.html


Perhaps it will help you distinguish between opinion and fact.

If you have empirical data to buttress your assertions please share it with us.

Thank you in advance.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Is there anything in the OP's post that contains facts?

Or is it all opinion?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. No...It Was More Of A Paean

But if somebody is offering an opinion that opinion would have more strength if it's based on empirical data...I'm a logical positivist...

[Froward69]

43. that uses sympathy as logic???

:eyes: :crazy: :nopity: :sarcasm:

[Cha]

7. That's nice I don't.

hillary has been my Senator for almost 8 years and I've met her and taken her picture(how sweet)..but the woman lost me when she eqivocated on the IWR and I could see those presidential stars in her eyes..my oh my we were right..sure nuff, she's running for prez 5 years later. War Hawk/Corporateshill.

[DeepModem Mom]

9. I support another candidate, at this point, at least -- but I SALUTE your courage!

:patriot:

[ruggerson]

12. Especially around here

;-)

[zalinda]

10. I liked her too, until

I read her positions along side Edwards. She sounded quite repub on some issues. I can't remember the web site I went to, but you could compare candidates side by side.

zalinda

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[emilyg]

25. You're a brave man. I like Hillary.

[opihimoimoi]

27. At this point its ANYONE BUT A GOP PUB...Hilliary will do well if elected

[ShortnFiery]

29. That makes one of us.

:eyes:

[mwb970]

39. I like her too.

But that opinion, and those who hold it, are very unpopular on this board. Speaking favorably of Hillary is treated pretty much like speaking favorably of Cheney or Gonzales, or maybe Hitler, would be. This despite her new-high 53% support from (apparently non-DU) Democrats in the latest polling. Go figure.

[Apollo11]

41. If she can keep a lid on the cackling then she has a strong chance

First of all let me say that I do not approve of Presidential candidates laughing in the face of serious questions, either in televised debates or interviews (like the one she did with Bill Maher).

I am willing to make an exception for FOX News - but even in that example she pulled the same trick 3 times in 17 minutes with various lengths of pause while deciding whether or not to laugh. The laughing did not come across as genuine and looked like a ploy to avoid dealing with difficult questions head-on.

Having said that - if Gore stays out of the race and if Hillary can convince Democrats in Iowa and New Hampshire to put her in pole position then I guess she will probably win the nomination.

Personally I would prefer Obama, Edwards or Biden. So I will be watching closely to see who will emerge as the main challenger to Hillary in late-January (after Iowa and New Hampshire).

[bluetrain]

42. We all have vices, doesn't mean we should inflict them on the rest of the wold. /eom

[gorekerrydreamticket]

44. "what she says and how she says it" is usually

wrapped up in so much side-stepping and waffling, combined with the occasional victim-talk about being persecuted by the RW for 15 years that I have no idea what she stands for or what she would do if elected.