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Clinton & Obama & Edwards are big fat Liars!

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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:44 PM
Original message
Clinton & Obama & Edwards are big fat Liars!
All politicians in meaningfully contested races are liars. When they tell the truth it is only because they have calculated that, in that particular instance, the truth is more effective than a lie, or that a lie would be found out and be more damaging in the long run.

Some politicians enjoy lying – as Harry Truman said of Nixon, “He can lie out of both sides of his mouth at the same time, and if he ever caught himself telling the truth, he'd lie just to keep his hand in."

Most politicians, however, enter politics because they think of themselves as good people who want to do some good in the world. They would prefer to be honest, to the degree the system allows. The habitually honest ones either lose straight off or gain minor offices in homogeneous districts. The better a politician is at avoiding candor, the further he can rise. The top national politicians are all accomplished and habitual liars.

Electoral politics is inveterately hostile to candor. A group cannot have a coherent world-view, yet a politician must convince a majority-sized group of individual voters that that he agrees with them as individuals.

So, to grease the wheels of democracy, we have constructed an ethical fantasy that deception is not lying. We reserve the term “lying” for intentional flatly false statements, and even then we prefer not to use the L word lest the whole system collapse. (Most US Senators have never once in their lives said an opponent was “lying.”)

But I am calling bullshit on that. The measure of a lie is how it deceives, not its verbal structure. Spin, misdirection, omission, willful vagueness and “image” are all forms of lying.

The modern Republican Party has pioneered a sociopathic style where bald-faced lying is admired because such divorce from reality is a testament to one’s devotion to irrational but emotionally satisfying ideology. Nixon, Reagan, Bush 41 and Gingrich are all fine examples, and no American public figure has ever lied the way G. W. Bush does. He is a stupid man and his only education in politics was that lying works. Their media supporters (Fox, Limbaugh, The Washington Times, The American Spectator, et al) are as luridly dishonest as the Daily Worker was during the Nazi-USSR non-aggression pact. We can even handicap a Republican field by looking at how pathologically dishonest the players are. (That’s why Romney bears watching.)

No Democrat today approaches the shear madness of the modern Republican style, but make no mistake… all successful politicians of any stripe are accomplished deceivers. FDR, JFK, RFK, Carter, Clinton and Gore were all accomplished deceivers. (Okay, Gore wasn’t very good at it, which is why he has since diagnosed himself as temperamentally unfit for presidential politics.)

Every Democrat running today is a liar in direct proportion to how serious they are about winning. The more people you must appeal to the more devious you must become because the average voter you are reaching for is increasingly vague figure.

Senator Clinton is a famous liar. (I assume no examples are needed to support that!) Obama’s chosen form of dishonesty is omission, being all things to all people. The higher Obama reaches the less candid he must be. (Oppose the war when you’re a nobody, but fund the war when you become a Senator thinking about running for president.) Edwards is an amazing phony… makes Bill Clinton look like Sir Thomas Moore. (A tie-wearing manager “works in a mill” but that’s hardly what the phrase is supposed to imply.)

Those three candidates are not going to be very candid because they have some chance of winning. As you move down the list the honesty increases. Dodd can say some sharp things at 2%… what does he have to lose? Kuccinich can take the “tough” stances because he is not a serious candidate. Gravel can be as candid as he wants to be because nobody cares what he says.



It is dangerous to look for honesty in a candidate for two reasons. 1) Your heart will be broken eventually, and 2) the best liars are almost always more electable, and more able to successfully pursue an agenda if elected. (I was a Tsongas guy in 1992, but it was easy to see Clinton was going to win it all and be a decent president, because he has the gift of shameless frame-and-spin.)

I think our modern cynicism makes us more mature voters. It is hard to imagine Jimmy Carter running today on the platform “I’ll never lie to you.” Most people would just laugh. And Carter’s presidency was severely hampered by unrealistic expectations of virtue and clarity that he himself had created. On the other hand, nobody gave a shit about Bill Clinton’s impeachment because he was not elected to be honest in the first place. He was elected to DO A GOOD JOB.

Not only is there is little positive correlation between honesty and being a good president, there may well be a negative correlation. This is obscured only by the fact that only really bad presidents get called liars by history. The successful presidents are considered crafty or shrewd. (FDR misled America into involvement in WWII well before Pearl Harbor, under-mining the constitution in the process. Congress was fiercely isolationist, so FDR used all sorts of executive prerogatives to fight an unauthorized war on the side of Britain against Germany. Had WWII turned out badly for us we would never hear the end of it.)

If you value honesty above all things, support Mike Gravel and hope he never reaches 3% in the polls.

PS: The Internet is full of lies because people have anonymity. I don’t get that. Lying on the internet is insane… Our anonymity on the Internet should allow us the rare opportunity to be utterly honest. (Something to think about)
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. I've always said that all politicians lie at some point. n/t
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
2. Should be pinned at the top of GDP throughout primary season
I wish I could disagree with your post, but I can't. You've defined things pretty well.

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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 07:55 PM
Response to Original message
3. Yes, but of the three who appear to be better presidential
material. I'm not asking for a Goddess/God. Just someone who want wage war, protect our jobs, provide us healthcare, and give a voice to those who do not have one. Feel free to add on, but let's not kid oursleves.
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Liar is a liar -
If this war is not brought under control right now - I wouldn't worry about health care or anything else. You will be screwed anyway.

Joe
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. There's the rub... we deduce actions from what they promise, even though we
know people say whatever the audience wants to hear.

Oddly, what made Bill Clinton a good president was that he did whatever would make him popular, which meant doing precisely the things people wanted him to do.

A computer programmed to have a high approval rating might be more compassionate than most human presidents, if compassion was popular. At least the computer wouldn't do crazy things for "history"
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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #3
23. Someone who wants to wage war? You're in luck then - you got one!
Edited on Tue Oct-09-07 06:15 AM by The Count
Just relax and enjoy the Bush regime - no one more inclined to wage war than them.
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MonkeyFunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. When
Gravel was asked by Stephanopolous if he really thought he was going to win, he said "Yes". Therefore, Mike Gravel's a liar, too.
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AZ Criminal JD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. You are not lying when you are in denial
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childslibrarian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:13 PM
Response to Original message
7. Admirable essay but...
I was also for Tsongas in 1992. I did not like Clinton. But Clinton was a president who even Alan Greenspan admired....A policy wonk, who read, and studied, and LOVED policy.
He managed the country really well.
Then we had the guy (Bush) who not only lied, but didn't give hoot about reading, policy, research, or anything other than his cronies and friends.
I'd say now,in the advent of a really screwed up eight years,even if a person is a liar and plays the politics game, also look for whether they look at the 3 R's--- read, research, reflect...
In that light, we have many admirable candidates--including Clinton, Obama, and Edwards...
Sincerely,
A librarian....(who values the power of research)
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I agree entirely! I was inspired by an earlier post about whether one preferred
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 08:19 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
a candidate who is honest or a candidate who is smart.

My reaction was that none of them are ever paragons of candor, so give me the smart guy every time! (Carter was as smart as Clinton, but could not play the dirty game of coalition building in congress very well. He thought simply being right was enough. Funny that he was able to negotiate with Isreal and Egypt better than he could work with his own party.)
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childslibrarian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The Clintons are masters
of smart ....
Actually they are particularly awesome in that aspect of politics.
I have to say, I had much more respect for them when I heard Alan Greenspan say he really enjoyed working with Bill and that he was an absolute wonk for economy statistics.
I don't think Hilary is any different. That said, I also like Obama, who is so intelligent and eloquent, and John Edwards, who is smart, charming and has an awesome wife....
I really like Chris Dodd too.
Let's face it, they all seem like intelligent people. So much better than any Repub running...
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. I was thinking today about Phil Graham's failed campaign. He had a PHD and felt
Edited on Mon Oct-08-07 08:41 PM by Kurt_and_Hunter
that he had to hide the fact in the republican primaries. So he always told a story on the stump about how he had to take thrid grade three times.

Romney used to run on being smart, but now that he's running nationally he's careful to not say anything that sounds too book-learned.

What a world.
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ruggerson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. If I remember correctly
it was the Republicans who started the process of demonizing intellectuals, which really had its first political manifestation in the Presidential cycle of 1952. Poor Adlai was the victim of the vilification of the "egghead." It's been downhill ever since.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Hence the famous exchange:
Old Lady: Senator Stevenson, you have the vote of every thinking person
Stevenson: Unfortunately, madam, I need a majority
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:24 PM
Response to Original message
9. If that's the case,
then we can discount all the platforms, speeches, and "plans," because they are all bullshit. Might as well dispense with all of the websites, interviews, advertisements, and the entire campaigns, since they are all liars. Why spend all that time, money, and energy, when we know they are full of shit?

We can try to wade through the cesspool to decide which liar to vote for, and conveniently forget how hard we pushed Democrats to call Bush on HIS lies,

or we can continue to believe that honesty is an achievable standard, and hold politicians to it.
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childslibrarian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Hey I have an idea
We could ask them if they have actually read or thought about any policy issues!
We could have weeded out Bush Jr. from the beginning by that criteria.
I am old enough to doubt if complete honesty could ever sway this country....
Sorry...
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LWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. I think that's a great idea, actually.
btw, I have most of my master's in Library Science, and worked in school librarys, with children, for 12 years while I waffled between the 2 degrees and finally took my teaching credential.

I think asking them what they've read, and what, and who, influences their policies is a better idea than listening to stump speeches. At least we'd know if they ever DID read or think about policy issues.

I met one of the current crop for the first time several years ago. He was speaking at a reasonably small venue, and we had a long, extended question and answer session with about 20 people. His answers were peppered with references to various books, philosophers, educators, psychologists, economists, and activists. I was literally staggered by the range of reading AND thinking he referenced.

I'd much prefer to hear them discuss their readings, and their thinking, than to hear them lie, or to have to (or be told to) assume that they are lying. Or to be expected to excuse their lies.

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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. Well, we could also compare their "words" to their "deeds"
We know that most campaign speeches are political double talk, so we need to do our research and take responsibility for our choices. I believe that "honesty is an achievable standard", but we have a long way to go before it becomes our reality. We have to stop shopping for candidates like we shop for hair conditioner and stop buying the hype. I was going to say "cars", but most people put more thought into such a purchase than they do when choosing a presidential candidate.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:25 PM
Response to Original message
10. PS: I forgot Johnson! The biggest bullshitter in town, but alble to put through
all those civil rights bills, not despite but BECAUSE we was an inveterate liar, flattereer and manipulator.

Bad on Vietnam, but a great president in many ways.
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. & Wilson's campaign slogan "He kept us out of war" (Wilson susequently took us to war)
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-08-07 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
14. K&R Mike Gravel
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=gravel2008

People want a good looking rich liar instead of an honest common person. You deserve the shit you will get from these Clinton & Obama & Edwards snakes!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
20. My quest is over, I've found an honest man. K*R Good for you!!!n/t
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Apollo11 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Honestly, I think Al Gore is the best person for the job.
IN GORE WE TRUST :patriot:
www.algore.com
www.algore.org
www.draftgore.com
www.americaforgore.org

:kick:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 03:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Well, then you'll really like this...


path of glory

:hi: Hope springs eternal! But I'll take Gore however it happens!
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Kurt_and_Hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-10-07 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. Thank you, though, of course, my honesty is in direct proportion to my electoral prospects
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-11-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Well, see there's an honest statement!
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GeorgeGist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
24. Sometimes for your own good, as well as that of others,
it's best to say NO to losers ... no matter how dishonest they are.
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PatSeg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-09-07 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
26. I almost bypassed this post
Glad I didn't. Very well written and I have to agree with all of it. You give an accurate overview of our political process and I'm inclined to agree that "our modern cynicism makes us more mature voters", but that could be wishful thinking on my part.
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