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Why single out Clinton for her Iraq vote, Edwards was the worst

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:10 AM
Original message
Why single out Clinton for her Iraq vote, Edwards was the worst
offender IMO.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3600154&mesg_id=3600154


He voted against all the amendments that tried to put on check on the resolution, he was a cosponsor of the bill and he gave a speech on the floor (before the NIE) that mentioned the events of 9/11 twice and the need to remove Saddam Hussein.

http://web.archive.org/web/20021214041757/edwards.senate.gov/statements/20020912_iraq.html

"...The path of confronting Saddam is full of hazards. But the path of inaction is far more dangerous. This week, a week where we remember the sacrifice of thousands of innocent Americans made on 9-11, the choice could not be starker. Had we known that such attacks were imminent, we surely would have used every means at our disposal to prevent them and take out the plotters. We cannot wait for such a terrible event – or, if weapons of mass destruction are used, one far worse – to address the clear and present danger posed by Saddam Hussein's Iraq."


Then another speech to the CSIS where he states we need "to win the war on terrorism"

http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=106&subid=122&contentid=250935


Now Edwards says the war on terror is a bumper sticker???


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2007/06/03/edwards-%E2%80%9Cwar-on-terror-is-a-bumper-sticker%E2%80%9D/

Edwards: “War on Terror is a bumper sticker”

WASHINGTON (CNN) – "Former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards was asked to clarify a statement he made in a recent speech where he called the war on terror, “a bumper sticker, not a plan.”

Edwards said that he rejects the notion that there is currently a war on terror saying, “that’s exactly what it is, it’s a bumper sticker.” He continued by saying if he was elected President he would do everything he could to prevent attacks but reiterating that currently the “war on terror” is a bumper sticker and a, “political slogan, that’s all it is. That’s all it’s ever been, was intended to do was for George Bush to use it to justify everything he does.”


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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:12 AM
Response to Original message
1. He changed his mind based on new and better information
Damn him for being human!

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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Four years and a new campaign later.
Hrm.

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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Maybe so
I don't support him so I don't really care one way or the other. I just don't care much for the pondwater analysis implicit in posts like this...

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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Wrong.
He would have had better information if he had bothered to read the classified NIE.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. And not just him
I didn't post this because I'm an Edwards supporter. I'm not. But this kind of crud has become tiresome. I criticize both Clinton and Edwards for their positions on this. Then and now. But I'm tired of all the disingenuous advocacy and counter-advocacy. It's crap.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. Why did he delegate his duty to declare war, give a speech
mentioning the events of 9/11 and the need to remove Saddam before there ever was an NIE (which he never read anyway) and then vote against all the amendments?

The new and better information is the same excuse many of the other party are giving.
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JeffR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
39. Why? Because he was stupid. That's my guess anyway.
As I've said elsewhere, I don't support him. This is a big reason why.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #39
47. Thanks for the reply, although I have a hard time believing he is
stupid.
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
2. Meh...they both suck. What did Kucinich say?
Just curious.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
15. Posted the Kucinich and Paul statements here, they both said
that the administration had not presented evidence of an immediate threat...and more.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3601743&mesg_id=3601743
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superkia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #15
41. Havent you realized, people dont care about the innocent lives...
lost in this illegal war. The war is only a talking point on tv, if people really cared about the innocent lives lost and the ones that could be lost in the future, Clinton wouldn't be leading the polls. Its sad but Americans just don't care about war, non profit health care, the attack on the constitution, they only care about what the media tells them to care about. For some reason most people just sit around complaining about the direction our country is going and they keep voting in the same old kind of politicians, the ones that care about the wealthy, powerful and the corporations so that they can continue their career in politics. The people don't mean a thing anymore to most of our elected officials, there are a few that speak up for the people and our rights but the media ignores them and the sheeple follow. This will probably be the last election that we will be able to take part in because the so called front runners or media favorites haven't really said much about the attack on our rights and we don't seem to care? What is more important than our constitution? When your rights have been taken, you really wont matter to them then.

Think about it, what are the issues that concern everyone the most and what is your candidate doing about the issues? Most people cant even answer what it is that make their favorite candidate their favorite. It seems the people of America have been dumbed down enough and its all downhill from here.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Many sad truths in your post, most people are removed
from what is occuring elsewhere and of course the media prefers to keep it that way.

"For some reason most people just sit around complaining about the direction our country is going and they keep voting in the same old kind of politicians, the ones that care about the wealthy, powerful and the corporations so that they can continue their career in politics."

It's a wonderful form of control when the people are kept fighting for their party and voting for the lesser evil :(
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Hawkowl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
3. Edwards admits mistake
Hilary does not. And she voted for that abomination of an ammendment by Lieberman--throwing gasoline on the fire to attack Iran. She is an unapologetic corporate war monger.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. Are Durbin and Levin also corporate war mongers?
Look, I disagree with that vote but it was hardly the same as championing IWR and calling for Saddam's head on a stick.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. Have you read the speech Edwards gave to the Herzliya
Conference?

http://www.herzliyaconference.org/Eng/_Articles/Article.asp?ArticleID=1728&CategoryID=223

"...Iran threatens the security of Israel and the entire world..."

Make sure you read the Q&A at the bottom.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
8. The Edwards people dont tell me that is was an act of clear eyed pragmatism.
They say it was a terrible mistake.

The Hillary people still are on DU and still on TV acting like it was the correct, responsible choice "for the context of the time" or some other nonsense.

It may seem like a subtle difference, but just admiting you were wrong goes a longer way with me than excuses.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Not when it's conviently timed to coincide with your new campaign
For president.

They can all take their "apologies" and shove them, because I don't believe them when they say they were "mislead" in the first place. It's all lies, and lying a second time doesn't earn any points with me.

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Fair enough. I can see that being a valid opinion...
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 12:35 AM by Dr Fate
My point is there are better ways to approach it than others. SAYING you were wrong puts out the message that it IS wrong, if nothing else.
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. Well, I don't see how Cheerleading this war,
and having your "let's go to war" op-ed posted on the State Department Website, as Edwards did...and then apologizing years later right before announcing one's candidacy for a 2nd run (and after the polls have turned) makes one a better example as to what we want in a President. After all, Edwards was on the Intelligence Committee and got an earful of "doubts" about the voracity of the intelligence on Iraq.

I believe that Edwards' behavior was pure Political expediency, and not just once....but twice.... on the issue of this war. This is not a message that should be rewarded with the Presidency.

Sooo for Hillary's vote to be condemned in the thread that the OP linked and for Edwards' vote to be "excused" is ridiculous and intellectually dishonest.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
23. But didn't he apologize in 2006? That's a long way off if you're looking at timing
Kerry apologized about the same time, iirc.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #23
24.  I was just stating the differences...
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 12:59 AM by Dr Fate
I agree that its a fine line, but I dont see Edwards or his supporters trying to tell me that it was the pragmatic, responsible thing. That seems to be the Hillary angle.

The Edwards angle works better me and I think it might work better in an election.

ON EDIT- opps- you were not adressing me!!!
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. No, Edwards' supporters consider Edwards saying "Sorry" as
responsible thing to have done and that it somehow makes a difference.

I see that apology as being another political expedient move made.

You see, it's all in the timing....and Edwards' timing with his apology came too late for me to believe that it had anything more to do than with "pragmatic" politics. How does that make him the better man?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Fair enough. At least he states in public that it was wrong to go to war.
I'll take a good insincere message over a bad insincere one.

Maybe- just maybe- he really means it. It's good to skeptical though- cant blame anyone for that...

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GreenArrow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. Well, he doesn't really state that.
He has stated that his "vote" was wrong, a vote largely offered in service of his own political interests. His "apology", likewise, is tendered in the service of his own political interests. He is not remorseful, nor has he paid any penance for being so wrong. His attitude is patently manipulative and insulting.

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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
19. Of course it's better to admit a mistake, at the very least
Clinton voted for the amendments and did not speak of 9/11 (read fear, fear) and the need to remove
Saddam in the same speech. Although I do believe the apology was done with the hopes of putting the vote in the past for political reasons. I'm not a Clinton supporter BTW, just feel as if she was unfairly singled out in that post.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. So her speech said "no" but her vote said "yes".
Those are the kinds of excuses that neither candidate needs to rely on.

I dont really care what they said in their speeches- any high-school civics student watching TV that day knew it was a vote leading to war.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. I'm not giving Clinton a pass, just pointing out the differences
in their votes and speeches, some went further than others to 'promote' the war.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Unless partnered with a "no" vote- the speeches mean nothing to me.
And parsing the speeches of "yes" voters seems irrelevant.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe Edwards did not vote one dime fore funding Iraq?
If I remember correctly he said because the administration violated the resolution

Don't get me wrong, I am against anyone who voted for the IWR


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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #12
20. Here's a comparison list, looks like he voted for funding
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. "The two switched places, most notably with Edwards voting against $87 billion appropriation"
Edited on Fri Oct-12-07 05:04 AM by 1932
"Then things changed in late 2003: The two switched places, most notably with Edwards voting against the $87 billion appropriation — with Hillary Clinton making up the more pro-Administration half. And as the Presidential campaign progressed, Edwards' attendance for more Senate votes suffered a severe drop.

"Of course, all of this is qualified by a simple fact: In 2005, John Edwards publicly recanted his previous support for the war, something Hillary yet to do so bluntly."

...from the link you posted (http://www.tpmcafe.com/blog/electioncentral/2007/apr/05/compare_and_contrast_hillarys_and_edwards_votes_on_iraq).
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. Edwards vote against the $87 billion
was not an anti-war vote - at the time he was still very much supporting the fact that we invaded. He was definitely not calling for the war to end in fall 2003. Like Kerry, it was an issue on how it was funded. Other than Leiberman and maybe Gephardt, Edwards was the most pro-war of all the 2004 candidates. There are plenty of interviews and speeches out there.

As you say, Edwards did not change his position until 2005.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
36. Thanks. Nothing either side should be proud of in my view.
I really hope Gore steps forward, otherwise I will go with Obama, in the primaries, but I am pretty sure it is over for him due to the misrepresentation of not wearing the lapel pin. The country is sooooooo screwed up on it values and priorities

Unfortunately, unless the Democrats win in 2008, I seriously believe the republic will not survive.


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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #36
46. Agree, nothing to be proud of...
I'm staying with Kucinich in the primary and will make a decision about the GE later. I hardly read about the lapel pin story, one of several stories of late that is just not that important IMO.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
13. Nov 2003 "stay the course"
It's not just the vote. It's her support for the actual war, until the opinion polls changed.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:34 AM
Response to Original message
16. ...
totally different reasonings as to why they each NOW say how they view what they voted for 5 years ago.

and to not see the extreme difference and understand them, makes talking about it with people who insist Edwards is just being a political con artist for votes, frustrating & pointless.
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incapsulated Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. I think they are all con artists
I have no illusions about politicians. You chose the least bad and the most effective for your side but my days of looking for heroes and honest men in the Senate are long over.

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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #18
26. sometimes I feel many of them should exit politics for a few years to regain their humanity
Al Gore seems rather different than he did in 2000. Edwards seems much more in touch with progressive ideas than he did in 04 when he was "good". I understand your own frustration, and share much of it. For example, I find Pelosi's capitulations in doing what I feel she should be pushing for in representing the country as speaker of the house representing the people & her district, disheartening. I feel that the House should be the outspoken, as they usually are, and the Senate is typically the good ol' boys club, and yet, her actions seem like she supports the status quo, and I don't expect that from a Lady from a liberal district who was ushered into her title on the heels of antiwar sentiment.


take care!
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
21. With the exception of Lieberman....
...I still believe that EVERY DEMOCRAT that voted FOR this folly did so out of fear of persecution for being "unpatriotic", due to the spin by the Bushies and ALL of the media at the time! I live all the way out in North Texas, and I KNEW when he started talking about Iraq that it was a bunch of crap that they were advancing on the back of 9/11. I KNOW that the list of HIGHLY INTELLIGENT DEMOCRATS such as Hillary and Edwards and all of the others KNEW THIS AS WELL, but felt that they could not actually do what was right, out of fear that it wasn't politically expedient.

I also believe that even though Obama DID speak out against the war from the safety of the state legislature, that had he been then where he is now, he most likely have found himself in the same "swift-boat". Since entering the Senate, his votes have varied minimally, if at all, from Senator Clintons.

By the way.....I WAS PISSED AS HELL at ALL OF THEM for their votes. This is not posted as an excuse for them, for there IS none!!

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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. I'd like to hear them say that. The public would know it was true.
If that is truly the case, then it is better than making things up.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Tonight on Olbermann there was a segment about the media
and why they did not push back against the administration, many of the same reasons were given. But what of the people who read all the material and put their careers on the line and voted no because they would be sending our soldiers to die and innocent people would be killed. They were not intimidated on this vote and they were not intimidated into voting for the Patriot Act either.

So while I understand that there was great pressure we need people who can withstand the outside pressure and not be so influenced by others, that's real courage IMO.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
42. ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!!!
Our leadership needs something that they were missing BEFORE taking power, and continue to miss today......SPINES!!!
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #42
48. Yes, agree completely with your statement ! n/t
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saracat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
35. Because Clinton refuses to admit her vote was a mistake and has now underscored that she
would vote exactly the same way again by voting for Kyl/Lieberman. She still supports the war.A general recently stated that he supported Hillary because she has always and still supports the war.Edwards has at least recanted his position.I do not want someone who is as stubborn as Bush and will not admit a "mistake" to be our president.That thinking is what got us where we are today.
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NativeTexan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #35
43. Remember, Edwards........
.......didn't "admit" his mistake until after he was out of office! Just as Obama was openly against the war BEFORE he was IN the Senate. I do not offer excuses for Hillary's vote. It was wrong. I don't offer excuses for her not "admiting" her mistake either. They all speak of how they were "mislead" by the president, but the truth is they were all MANIPULATED by the Village Idiot!
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Cameron27 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #35
49. Edwards admitted his "mistake"
by blaming it on faulty intel and "the Clinton people." Too bad his apology didn't include the fact that he never bothered to read the classified NIE docs that found holes in that intel. Too bad he didn't include the fact that he was the only Democrat on the Intel Committe who didn't read the classified docs. It wasn't a mistake, it was negligence.
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Adelante Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 08:08 AM
Response to Original message
37. I won't vote for him in the primaries
I hope I won't have to in the GE. I don't care how sorry he is and I'm not voting in the primary for anyone who voted Yes on the IWR. But I do see thin shades of difference regarding the IWR. Clinton, for example, voted for an amendment to limit the force authority to one year - Byrd 2, I believe it was. Biden voted Yes but at least read the NIE. It's not a No vote and I don't say it's in any way comparable and it in no way excuses the votes in my mind. But it's still more than Edwards bothered to do as he voted against every single alternative amendment to the IWR he co-sponsored with Lieberman, as you mention in your OP. He's the last Democratic candidate who deserves the presidency.

Even Edwards says, “I had the information I needed. I just voted wrong.”

Well, fine, it doesn't mean you get to lead the country because you were wrong and now you're sorry.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Thanks it was the Byrd 2 amendment, votes listed below
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-12-07 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
38. IMO herein lies the difference
Back in the day when Big Dog was President and Hillary went on the Today Show. Remember when she bravely declared there was a vast right wing conspiracy? I do. I so applauded her! I thought "She gets it!"

Imagine my utter shock and disdain a few years later as I listened to her declare she was going to give Little Boots (puppet of PNAC gang) the benefit of the doubt and vote "yes" on the IWR.

Did she think the whole VRWC started and ended with Bill's presidency? It didn't exist to badger Bill but to complete a take over of the world.

Julie
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
50. Not sure what she thought as I did not see the show, but anyone
of them could have joined Senator Byrd in his request for more time to discuss the resolution and to narrow the focus.

Just some of what he said on 10/10/02, it was all good and all correct.


"Mr. BYRD. I hope Senators will show an abundance of mercy before the day is over and perhaps give me some more time.

Mr. President, this week the Senate is considering a very important resolution. The language of this resolution has been touted as a bipartisan compromise that addresses the concerns of both the White House and the Democratic leadership in Congress. But the only thing that I see being compromised in this resolution is this Constitution of the United States, which I hold in my hand, and the power that Constitution gives to Congress to declare war. This resolution we are considering is a dangerous step toward a government in which one man at the other end of this avenue holds in his hand the power to use the world's most powerful military force in whatever manner he chooses, whenever he chooses, wherever he chooses, and wherever he perceives a threat against national security.

The Bush administration has announced a new security doctrine that advocates acting preemptively to head off threats to U.S. national security. Much has been said about the diplomatic problem with this doctrine. But we should also recognize that the administration's new approach to war may also pose serious problems for our own constitutional system.

In the proposed use-of-force resolution, the White House lawyers claim ``the President has authority under the Constitution to use force in order to defend the national security interests of the United States.''

It says no such thing. I dare them to go to the Constitution and point out where that Constitution says what they say it said. They cannot do it. I know the job of any good lawyer--I have never been a practicing lawyer, but I know the job of a good lawyer is to craft legal interpretations that are most beneficial to the client. But for the life of me, I cannot find any basis for such a broad, expansive interpretation in the interpretation of the Constitution of the United States. Find it. Show it to me. You can't do it.

Where in the Constitution is it written that the title of Commander in Chief carries with it the power to decide unilaterally whether to commit the resources of the United States to war? Show it to me, lawyers, lawyers of the White House, or lawyers in this body. Show it.


There is a dangerous agenda, believe me, underlying these broad claims by this White House. The President is hoping to secure power under the Constitution that no President has ever claimed before. Never. He wants the power--the Bush administration wants that President to have power to launch this Nation into war without provocation and without clear evidence of an imminent attack on the United States. And we are going to be foolish enough to give it to him. I never thought I would see the day in these 44 years I have been in this body, never did I think I would see the day when we would cede this kind of power to any President. The White House lawyers have redefined the President's power under the Constitution to repel sudden acts against the United States. And he has that power, to repel sudden, unforeseen attacks against the United States, against its possessions, its territories, and its Armed Forces.

But they suggest he could also justify military action whenever there is a high risk of a surprise attack. That Constitution, how they would love to stretch it to give this President that power which he does not have. Those White House lawyers would have us believe that the President has independent authority not only to repel attacks but to prevent them. How silly. You cannot find it in that Constitution.

The White House wants to redefine the President's implied power under the Constitution to repel sudden attacks, suggesting that the realities of the modern world justify preemptive military action whenever there is a high risk of a surprise attack. What in the world are they teaching in law school these days? What are they teaching? I never heard of such as that when I was in law school. Of course I had to go at night. I had to go 10 years to get my law degree. In the national security strategy released last week, a few days ago, the President argued--let me tell you what the President argued--we must adapt the concept of imminent threat to the capabilities of today's adversary. Get that.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld echoed this sentiment when he told the Senate Armed Services Committee: I suggest that any who insist on perfect evidence are back in the 20th century and still thinking in pre-9/11 years.

What a profound statement that was. How profound. Perhaps the Secretary of Defense ought to go back to law school, too. I don't believe he was taught that in law school.

The President does not want to shackle his new doctrine of 20th century ideas of war and security, much less any outdated notion from the 18th century about how this Republic should go to war. The Bush administration thinks the Constitution, with its inefficient separation of powers and its cumbersome checks and balances--they are cumbersome--has become an anachronism in a world of international terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.

They say it is too old. This Constitution, which I hold in my hand, is an anachronism. It is too old. It was all right back in the 19th century. It was all right in the 20th century. But we are living in a new time, a new age. There it is, right up there, inscribed, ``Novus ordo seclorum.'' A new order of the ages. New order of the ages.

This modern President does not have time for old-fashioned political ideas that complicate his job of going after the bad guys single-handedly.

And make no mistake, the resolution we are considering will allow the President to go it alone at every stage of the process. It will be President Bush, by himself, who defines the national security interests of the United States. It will be President Bush, by himself, who identifies threats to our national security. It will be President Bush, by himself, who decides when those threats justify a bloody and costly war. And it will be President Bush, by himself, who determines what the objectives of such a war should be, and when it should begin and when it should end.

The most dangerous part of this modernized approach to war is the wide latitude the President will have to identify which threats present a ``high risk'' to national security. The administration's National Security Strategy briefly outlines a few common attributes shared by dangerous ``rogue states,'' but the administration is careful not to confine its doctrine to any fixed set of objective criteria for determining when the threat posed by any one of these states is sufficient to warrant preemptive action.

The President's doctrine--and we are about to put our stamp on it, the stamp of this Senate. The President's doctrine, get this, gives him--Him? Who is he? He puts his britches on just the same way I do. He is a man. I respect his office. But look what we are turning over to this man, one man.

The President's doctrine gives him a free hand to justify almost any military action with unsubstantiated allegations and arbitrary risk assessments.

Even if Senators accept the argument that the United States does not have to wait until it has been attacked before acting to protect its citizens, the President does not have the power to decide when and where such action is justified, especially when his decision is supported only by fear and speculation. The power to make that decision belongs here in Congress. That is where it belongs. That is where this Constitution vests it. The power to make this decision belongs to Congress and Congress alone.

Ultimately, Congress must decide whether the threat posed by Iraq is compelling enough to mobilize this Nation to war. Deciding questions of war is a heavy burden for every Member of Congress. It is the most serious responsibility imposed on us by the Constitution. We should not shrink from our duty to provide authority to the President where action is needed. But just as importantly, we should not shrink from our constitutional duty to decide for ourselves whether launching this Nation into war is an appropriate response to the threats facing our people--those people looking, watching this debate through that electronic lens there. They are the ones who will have to suffer. It is their sons and daughters whose blood will be spilled. Our ultimate duty is not to the President. They say: Give the President the benefit of the doubt. Why, how sickening that idea is. Our ultimate duty is not to the President of the United States. I don't give a darn whether he is a Democrat or Republican or an Independent--whatever. It makes no difference. I don't believe that our ultimate duty is to him. Our ultimate duty is to the people out there who elected us.


Our duty is not to rubber-stamp the language of the President's resolution, but to honor the text of the Constitution. Our duty is not to give the President a blank check to enforce his foreign policy doctrine, but to exercise our legislative power to protect the national security interests of this Republic.

Our constitutional system was designed to prevent the executive from plunging the Nation into war in the name of contrived ideals and political ambitions. The nature of the threats posed by a sudden attack on the United States may have changed dramatically since the time when Constitution was drafted, but the reasons for limiting the war powers of the President have not changed at all. In fact, the concerns of the Framers are even more relevant. Talk about this being old fashioned. The concerns of the Framers are even more relevant to the dangerous global environment in which our military must now operate, because the consequences of unchecked military action may be more severe for our citizens than ever before.

Congress has the sole power under the Constitution to decide whether the threat posed by Iraq is compelling enough to mobilize this nation to war, and no Presidential doctrine can change that. If President Bush wants our foreign policy to include any military action, whether for preemption, containment, or any other objective, he must first convince Congress that such a policy is in the best interest of the American people.

The amendment I am offering reaffirms the obligation of the Congress to decide whether this country should go to war. It makes clear that Congress retains this power, even in the event that we pass this broad language, which I believe gives the President a blank check to initiate war whenever he wants, wherever he wants, and against any perceived enemy he can link to Iraq. My amendment makes clear that the President has the power to respond to the threat of an imminent, sudden, and direct attack by Iraq against the United States, and that any military action that does not serve this purpose must be specifically authorized by the Congress.

Other Senators have said on the floor that the language of this resolution does not give the President a blank check, and they have said that this resolution is narrowly tailored to Iraq. I do not read the resolution that way, but I hope that the President does. I hope the President reads this resolution as a narrowly crafted authorization to deal with Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and not as an open-ended endorsement of his doctrine of preemptive military action.

We should all hope that the President does not fully exercise his authority under this resolution, and that he does not abuse the imprecise language Congress may ultimately adopt. But I believe that Congress must do more than give the President a blank check and then stand aside and hope for the best. Congress must make clear that this resolution does not affect its constitutional power to declare war under Article I, section 8 of the Constitution; otherwise, this resolution may appear to delegate this important legislative function to the executive....."
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
51. You are right. And it does not go voer well with me. but I still think Edwards is the best choice, g
given actual circumstances. He is not a god. I am not in love with him, but at least he gets the basic struggle in this country, between people and corporations, and is taking the right stands now. The others, except Kucinich, are all pandering to what they call "the center", i.e. the right.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Thanks, although Edwards has not touched on this subject...
the unions in Iraq have asked for help in fighting the draft Oil Law and almost all the candidates remain silent. It is not in their political interest to bring this to the attention of people :(


Iraq: It's the oil. 5 super bases will allow the U.S. to stay for years

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3605779

Every person in the world needs resources and we have a choice to make. Do we use our military to control those resources for our nation or do we 'put the cards on the table' and work with other nations on this issue.


from the article

"Who will get Iraq’s oil? One of the Bush administration’s ‘benchmarks’ for the Iraqi government is the passage of a law to distribute oil revenues. The draft law that the US has written for the Iraqi congress would cede nearly all the oil to Western companies. The Iraq National Oil Company would retain control of 17 of Iraq’s 80 existing oilfields, leaving the rest – including all yet to be discovered oil – under foreign corporate control for 30 years. ‘The foreign companies would not have to invest their earnings in the Iraqi economy,’ the analyst Antonia Juhasz wrote in the New York Times in March, after the draft law was leaked. ‘They could even ride out Iraq’s current “instability” by signing contracts now, while the Iraqi government is at its weakest, and then wait at least two years before even setting foot in the country.’ As negotiations over the oil law stalled in September, the provincial government in Kurdistan simply signed a separate deal with the Dallas-based Hunt Oil Company, headed by a close political ally of President Bush.

How will the US maintain hegemony over Iraqi oil? By establishing permanent military bases in Iraq...

This is the ‘mess’ that Bush-Cheney is going to hand on to the next administration. What if that administration is a Democratic one? Will it dismantle the bases and withdraw US forces entirely? That seems unlikely, considering the many beneficiaries of the continued occupation of Iraq and the exploitation of its oil resources. The three principal Democratic candidates – Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards – have already hedged their bets, refusing to promise that, if elected, they would remove American forces from Iraq before 2013, the end of their first term..."


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Egnever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
52. Agreed Edwards was the worst
In the curent crop he is the worst offender. Many give him a pass because he said he was sorry. Its not good enough for me and neither is Hillaries twisting.
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-13-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Thanks, the speech given by Edwards on 9/11/02 was before
the NIE ever existed and he sat on the Intelligence Committee and should have been aware of, or attended, the 9/5/02 meeting described below by Senator Graham. Unless Senator Graham is not being truthful? But I remember other senators, Durbin in particular, saying he also wrote a letter in September '02 requesting an NIE, so???

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/18/AR2005111802397.html

http://intelligence.senate.gov/members107thcongress.html

"...At a meeting of the Senate intelligence committee on Sept. 5, 2002, CIA Director George Tenet was asked what the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) provided as the rationale for a preemptive war in Iraq. An NIE is the product of the entire intelligence community, and its most comprehensive assessment. I was stunned when Tenet said that no NIE had been requested by the White House and none had been prepared. Invoking our rarely used senatorial authority, I directed the completion of an NIE.

Tenet objected, saying that his people were too committed to other assignments to analyze Saddam Hussein's capabilities and will to use chemical, biological and possibly nuclear weapons. We insisted, and three weeks later the community produced a classified NIE.

There were troubling aspects to this 90-page document. While slanted toward the conclusion that Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction stored or produced at 550 sites, it contained vigorous dissents on key parts of the information, especially by the departments of State and Energy. Particular skepticism was raised about aluminum tubes that were offered as evidence Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program.

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