No offense, but people advocating downfall of DEMS

[PretzelWarrior]

are F***ing tools. If you're a troll and just over here getting your jollies....what a waste of oxygen you are.

If you're a rabid left winger who won't be happy until we're all sitting around a compact flourescent "fire" singing Kumbaya in nationwide food coop/commune, then you're never going to be happy with anyone who makes it into a DEM leadership position.

If you're just out there with a personal axe to grind because the slim Dem majority is taking time to get the train moving down the tracks (part of which will be facilitated by allowing GOP to continue to stumble and get more seats in 2008), then you have no perspective.

GROW UP!

[JuniperLea]

1. Not to mention...

That anti-Dem talk (not to be confused with anti-Dem candidate talk)is forbidden at DU.

[PretzelWarrior]

5. yep. internicene squabbles about candidates notwithstanding..

I can't stand seeing these calls for removal of Pelosi or that Rahm Immanuel is evil or blah blah blah on and on. Even if your mission is to see the U.S. center and critical mass pulled farther to the left, there's no way it's happening in a year or 5. It took the conservatives YEARS upon YEARS to get out of the wilderness and finally get Reagan in and the 94 revolution.

[Oak2004]

22. It already is well left of center of the Democrats

The widespread (not just among a few DUers) dissatisfaction with the Democrats is that they have been much more cautious and conservative than a majority of Americans (not DUers, Americans in general) want them to be or expected them to be.

Whether this is explainable and will take some time to resolve or reflects a serious problem with both parties being out of touch with the American people, is besides the point: this view of the Democrats is held by a very large number of Americans, probably a plurality in any well constructed poll. Polls do show this opinion is held most strongly by registered Democrats, so portraying is as an "anti-Democrat" point of view is, well, at best puzzling. Anti-Democratic leadership, certainly, but not anti-Democratic Party itself.

Whether you like this point of view or not, you won't make it go away by yelling at a majority of Democrats to stop it.

Addendum: It took the right wing of the Republicans years to do what they did because they first had to take over the Republican Party itself, and then had to find ways to sell an inherently unpopular agenda to people who, if fully aware of the agenda, would reject it. How do I know? I was an active Republican during those years.

[PretzelWarrior]

26. again. I am not saying people shouldn't register their protest

but do it with the spirit of giving them a goddam chance. they've been in there at a slim majority for less than a year. it's ridiculous to expect them to immediately have the power and momentum to fight back against years of institutionalized abuses.

P.S. People want the congress to act, but it would be stupid for them to continually bloody their heads against a wall by say...cutting funding for the troops already in the field and piss off another faction of moderates so that their window of opportunity is sealed off at only 2 relatively unproductive years.

Bear in mind....we are also up against a news wall by corporatist America that automatically tips the playing field toward "anti-people" and "pro-business" agendas. Right now, the war continuing is very pro-business. The TV folks and other media outlets are standing ready to bury any Democrats who think they can ram things through. What we need to do is give them support by making our voices loud and clear. There were a couple of recent areas where the overwhelming PEOPLE response had a noticeable effect:

response to attempts at privatizing Social Security

response to attempts to further consolidate media ownership by Michael Powell at the FCC.

The power of the people is there if they can be mobilized to action. Bashing Democratic leadership isn't the answer.

[BootinUp]

2. preach it brother.

:thumbsup:

[CT_Progressive]

3. You damn skippy !!!!!!

werd!

[melody]

4. Agreed and then some

The extremes -- the haters -- are the problem -- the rabid left-wingers who hate our society and
the rabid right-wingers who hate our society ... and who want something that is narrowly defined
by their own visions.

[baldguy]

6. Divide & conquer

"I can't vote for Dem X because of Issue Y. Instead I'll vote for some 3rd party guy that has no chance of winning!"

ANY Dem is better than EVERY 'puke! It's not about issues or ideology anymore. It's about saving the country from oblivion.

[againes654]

11. ANY Dem?

I am not advocating the downfall of the Democratic party at all!! But wasn't Lieberman a Dem at one time? ANY Dem won't necessarly do. Just MHO

[baldguy]

12. Lieberman has an (I) next to his name, no matter what Faux sez.

[againes654]

13. hasn't always had that I there. He USED to be a D

[Tempest]

7. I'm not advocating the downfall of Democrats, but...

I do advocate replacing the current inept and unresponsive leadership.

[Lerkfish]

8. link?

thanks.

[PretzelWarrior]

17. I'll link to some....but an example is attacks on Pelosi

and other leaders in the party who are truly up against it in terms of having the "power" in Congress to the point that they control the debate and the agenda, but they have a hard time pushing through truly progressive agenda when they are blocked at every turn.

first, by filibusters in the Senate when they feel they have the numbers to accomplish that. second, by a presidential veto that is almost always impossible to overcome with necessary majority.

witness the SCHIP vote. I believe it is a no brainer that this one is a political winner and a practical winner for the Dems and our country. But they still may not get enough people brought around in the house to override the veto.

How do you manage around that kind of dunderheaded obstinance and party loyalty? It's very difficult, and we need to be rational and strategic in how we set expectations as constituents.

Keep the pressure on them with your letters and phone calls to let them know you are an active base....but don't slam them and perpetuate false arguments that they aren't passing your own personal 20 point agenda for America therefore they are garbage.

[Lerkfish]

21. I would say they are engineering their OWN downfall, no other effort required.

[PretzelWarrior]

34. No. they are being intelligent and winning the strategic war

not caving to a bunch of reactionaries who want the head of Bush on a spike but who don't have the ability to make it so. Go read through the news articles of 2002 and 2003 to see what a horrendous atmosphere we've been suffering through. I actually feel much better about Democrats' chances in 2008 now than I did 6 months ago.

[robinlynne]

36. You have to be kidding!

[redqueen]

9. We would do well to remember

that throughout history, these two parties do not change due to the opinions of their donors and supporters. They mostly have changed when forced, by losing votes & money to third parties.

Yes, this site has rules, and that's why there's a little "Alert" tag at the bottom of each post.

Just my .02.

[damntexdem]

10. If you're just here to support the DLC and regressive, antidemocratic, and anti-Democratic politics,

then you are worse than a tool of the GOP. You may drive many away from the Democratic Party; and as you note, the Dem majority is slim, so the Party needs us all.

The Dem leadership in Congress is a spineless, gutless, hesitant, cowardly, disgusting mess; but I'm glad that it's in the majority and not the much-worse horror that is the GOP leadership, and followership in Congress.

[jgraz]

14. As long as we're inventing straw men, allow me to condemn people who kick puppies

Sheesh, could you possibly throw any more bigoted stereotypes into your post? I'm guessing you can...

Another typical DLC right-wing attempt to suppress any dissenting opinion. Harold Ford must love you.

[applegrove]

15. The last election was less than a year ago. Give the Dem leadership some

time to do what they can and make the distinction between the Dems and the GOP. Already they have a ****load of investigations going on. That's good.

[ShortnFiery]

16. I beg to differ, it's coming down to "The DLC" or "The Liberals" ... The Democratic Party can't have

both. :shrug: We are fighting for the Values that has made our party great AGAINST shameless Large "Free Trade" Corporate Enablers.

Regulated Capitalism before it's too late! :thumbsup:

[niceypoo]

29. The democratic party can be many, many things...

...you just have a hard time accepting that.

[LoZoccolo]

18. Recommended!

:kick:

[LandOLincoln]

19. Oh yeah!! You tell 'em, brother. I'm so sick of these

self-righteous brats I could scream.

[TheWraith]

20. Proud to be the fifth recommendation. Kick! NT

[PretzelWarrior]

23. why THANK YOU

but it is how I feel....

[LWolf]

24. I've yet to find a post,

in years and tens of thousands of them, advocating for the "downfall of dems."

There are plenty that don't worship at a democratic altar, of course. But that's not the same thing.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. lolol. that is flat out not true.

I read posts during 2004 and 2006 where strident "true believers" said they wouldn't compromise an inch and would rather the Democrats were defeated than see what they saw as a counterfeit Dem. They specifically wish for the downfall of people like Nancy Pelosi because she will not be cowed by the extreme left wing base.

You not seeing these posts hardly constitutes proof they never occurred.

[LWolf]

30. Of course it's true.

Since I didn't find it, it's up to you to provide the evidence of your assertions. Links, please.

BTW, I would like to see Pelosi's "downfall," if "downfall" means that she is removed from her position as speaker.

She took the issues Democrats won a majority on in '06 "off the table." She regrets the 1st amendment rights of demonstrators and wishes they could be arrested for loitering. Like the homeless.

Calling for the replacement of a bad Democrat is not the same thing as calling for a downfall of the Democratic Party. Moving poor reps out and good Democrats in IMPROVES the party. You know, the DEMOCRATS.

[PretzelWarrior]

33. I'll use as proof of my assertions

the many other posters who have added their agreement about the kvetching and whatever other verbs you want to use. I will find more posts as they come up and link those...but I really don't want to waste my time scrolling through 10 pages of posts looking for the ones I had in mind. I think you know NOTHING about what it takes to be speaker of the house. I sometimes regret the free speech protections that allow KKK people to roam in the public square. I sometimes regret the free speech protections that allow someone to camp outside the home --repeat..HOME--of a public official. Especially when these people are supposedly in alignment with Pelosi and what she's stated before are her goals for moving pieces of agenda forward.

If you're whining that they strategically took impeachment off the table, you're not very smart. All it would do is lead to a diminishing of the Democratic party and leadership. Regardless of whether we feel there is merit in going after Bush, they don't have the votes. And despite your disagreement with his policies, it is purposefully not easy for people to be reactionary and throw a guy out if he did not very clearly commit high crimes or treason against the State.

Agree or disagree with what I said....I just feel this site should be used for intelligent discussion about how to affect change in what our Democratic leadership is doing to advance our cause--calling for removal of them is not one of them.

[LWolf]

43. 1. I don't whine, and consider the use of the term

to be oppositional, to say the least.

2. I said I'd never seen anyone advocate the downfall of "The DEMS," aka, the Democratic Party.

3. My having not seen it, in spite of my years, and 4 or 5 times more posts than you, isn't saying it doesn't happen. I only click on a fraction of the threads that run through DU on any given day. It probably isn't happening to the extent you seem to think, though.

4. Telling me that it's "flat out not true" that I haven't seen anyone advocating for the downfall of the Democratic Party diminishes your credibility, since you obviously aren't me.

5. Deciding that I know NOTHING about my own government is a more than a little arrogant and misinformed on your part.

6. I think camping outside the home of an elected official who is not doing a good job is good, and your attacks on my knowledge or intellect don't effect my opinion at all.

7. You are not qualified to rate my intelligence, thank you.

8. Your opinion is not fact, and is not "smarter" than anyone else's, including mine. It reflects your perspective, not the whole.

9. I do disagree with you.

10. I think removing Democrats who don't represent the people well, and replacing them with Democrats who do and who will, advances the cause further than waiting hopefully for them to take actions they have no intention of engaging in.

11. I don't notice any of the other posters on this thread doing anything BUT "kvetching." They are bitching about their fellow Democrats bitching about Democrats. :eyes:

12. I'm going to keep publicly criticizing Democrats when I don't like what they are doing, and I'm going to keep supporting people who are willing to hold them accountable. I think it improves the party, myself. I doubt that calling people "Fucking tools," "Trolls," etc. is likely to make any significant changes in their pov, or their comments.

[Forkboy]

25. The Dems wont need our help.

[PretzelWarrior]

28. what does that even mean?

[Forkboy]

31. It means they are doing a great job of diminishing themselves without any outside help.

[PretzelWarrior]

32. if you focused on what they are working hard to do this period

and the way Reid is dancing around the obstacles in front of him, you will find they are setting things up quite nicely for a longer run in power with hopefully a Democratic President to provide a MAJOR assist in moving the agenda forward. In the mean time, they are investigating the bejeezus out of government, getting GOP on record with important votes and keeping the pressure on the president to scale down this ridiculous war.

[robinlynne]

35. I say let's sing kumbaya sitting around a compact flourescent lightbulb in a foodcoop.

[PretzelWarrior]

37. you've been compromised by "Big Polar Bear"

and if you'd said sing "Comfortably Numb" around a black light, I'd say you're a druggie. But I'll give you a pass and just say you are a vegan.

[robinlynne]

39. nope. I'm just laughing at the OP.

[PretzelWarrior]

41. no problem. I find humor in your stance as well.

thanks for the kick. feel free to recommend this bit of humor to other DUers too.

[robinlynne]

44. I have to tell you, I woke up this morning, and remembered the kumbaya, and started the

day giggling!

[babylonsister]

38. When they deserve criticism, I will do so. I can't believe you're

advocating accepting whatever they say or do without questioning them and their motives, especially given some performances we've seen, like the FISA vote. Or at least a discussion of impeachment.

If there are concrete reasons for not impeaching, why aren't we told what they are instead of being insulted by the likes of Pelosi?

Nah, part of my being a Democrat is being able to voice my disapproval when it's earned.

[PretzelWarrior]

40. okay. read through the thread. I did say we should speak up

just not in the counterproductive way of rambling on this board. It's just so much navel gazing and accomplishing NOTHING. I come here to get charged up to do more OUT ON THE STREET for my set of missions for making this country better. I don't want to read a bunch of whiney @ss people saying Dem leader X is an F*** up because they didn't do exactly like I say.

Write to them personally. Write to your own congress people. Do whatever you want that involves some kind of quantifiable action. Just quit adding credibility to negativity. It's not the way to win babylon.

[babylonsister]

42. I do try to be optimistic, sometimes overly so. But please explain

how to make a positive out of 'my' Dems caving on FISA and then leaving for vacation, or Pelosi taking something/anything! off the table without a discussion, hearing, whatever. It's hard to counter a done deal.