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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 08:34 PM
Original message
To all those who rip Edwards on the Patriot Act, read this first.
"Mr. President, I rise in support of S. 1510, the Uniting and Strengthening America Act. In the aftermath of September 11, we face two difficult and delicate tasks: to strengthen our security in order to prevent future terrorist attacks, and at the same time, to safeguard the individual liberties that make America a beacon of freedom to all the world.

I believe that when the President signs this anti-terrorism legislation into law, we will have achieved those two goals as best we now can.

The act is a far-reaching bill. I will mention just a few key aspects of that bill.

First, the legislation brings our surveillance laws into the 21st century. Here are two of many examples. Under current law, the FBI can use a basic search warrant to access answering machine messages, but the FBI needs a different kind of warrant to get to voice mail. This law says the FBI can use a traditional warrant for both. Another example: Under current law, a Federal court can authorize many electronic surveillance warrants only within the court's limited jurisdiction. If the target of the investigation is in the judge's jurisdiction, but the subject of the warrant is technically an internet service provider located elsewhere, the warrant is no good as to that ISP. This bill allows the court overseeing an investigation to issue valid warrants nationwide.

Second, the act gives law enforcement officers and the foreign intelligence community the ability to share intelligence information with each other in defined contexts. For example, the act says that under specified conditions, the FBI may share wiretap and grand jury information related to foreign- and counter-intelligence. I appreciate concerns that this information-sharing authority could be abused. Like Chairman Leahy, I would have preferred to see greater judicial oversight of these data exchanges. But I also believe we simply cannot prevail in the battle against terrorism if the right hand of our government has no idea what the left hand is doing.

Third, the act enhances intelligence authorities under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA). When I met with FBI agents in North Carolina shortly after September 11, they told me their number one priority was to streamline the FISA process. We've done that. We've said, for example, that the renewal periods of certain key FISA orders may be longer than the initial periods. This makes sure the FBI can focus on investigations, not duplicative court applications.

A more controversial change concerns the purpose of FISA surveillance. Under current law, a FISA wiretap order may only enter if the primary purpose of the surveillance is foreign intelligence gathering. The administration initially proposed changing the ``primary purpose'' requirement to a requirement of ``a purpose,'' any foreign intelligence purpose. At a recent Intelligence Committee hearing, I was one of several Senators to raise constitutional questions about the Administration's initial proposal. The last thing we want is to see FISA investigations lost, and convictions overturned, because the surveillance is not constitutional. S. 1510 says that FISA surveillance requires not just ``a purpose,'' but ``a significant purpose,'' of foreign intelligence gathering. That new language is a substantial improvement that I support. In applying this ``significant purpose'' requirement, the FISA court will still need to be careful to enter FISA orders only when the requirements of the Constitution as well as the statute are satisfied. As the Department of Justice has stated in its letter regarding the proposed FISA change, the FISA court has ``an obligation,'' whatever the statutory standard, ``to reject FISA applications that do not truly qualify'' as constitutional. I anticipate continued close congressional oversight and inquiry in this area.

A forth step taken by this legislation is to triple the number of Border Patrol, INS inspectors, and Customs Service agents along our 4,000-mile northern border. Today there are just 300 border patrol agents to guard those 4,000 miles. Orange cones are too often our only defenses against illegal entries. This bill will change that.

Fifth, the bill expedites the hiring of translators by the FBI. It is unthinkable that our law enforcement agents could have critical raw intelligence that they simply cannot understand because they do not know the relevant language. This statute will help to change that state of affairs.

Finally, the bill makes the criminal law tougher on terrorists. We make it a crime to possess a biological agent or toxin in an amount with no reasonable, peaceful purpose, a crime to harbor a terrorist, a crime to provide material support to terrorism. And we say that when you commit a crime of terrorism, you can be prosecuted for that crime for the rest of your life, with no limitations period. Statutes of limitations guarantee what lawyers call ``repose." Terrorists deserve no repose.

As Chairman Leahy and Senator Hatch have both said, this legislation is not perfect, and the House-Senate Conference may yet make improvements. For example, the Conference might clarify that, as to aliens detained as national security threats, the law will secure the due process protections and judicial review required by the Constitution and by the Supreme Court's recent decisions in Zadvydas v. Davis and INS v. St. Cyr. The Conference might also sensibly include a sunset of the new surveillance authorities, ensuring that Congress will reconsider this bill's provisions, which touch such cherished liberties, in light of further experience and reflection.

The bill is not perfect, but it is a good bill, it is important for the Nation, and I am pleased to support it.

Source: http://www.cdt.org/security/011011senate.txt
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
1. Ripping is a loaded word for legitimate concerns people have.
Edited on Thu Feb-19-04 08:43 PM by roguevalley
I have them too. He helped craft the bill, maybe lightening it or not, but when it came time to vote, he voted for it. Knowing it was 'not perfect' and knowing it was bloody unAmerican, he didn't take a principled stand and vote no. That speaks to me of a genuine
character issue. I want someone with the balls to stand up and say
no. I won't vote for Kucinich but I admire him. I admire him with a capital A. I admire Carol Mosley Braun the same way.

He could have voted no but he didn't. He could renounce going after Iraq --even when he admitted that the war was illegal, that the UN and the world was against him, that the intel was crap- he still says as President he would do the same thing bush did. He says also that he didn't feel misled by Bush's lying.

Son of a millworker? Ha! Son of a man who became management in a mill faster than lightning. I don't want someone pretending to be poor, I can remember what that felt like just fine. Faking a poverty past is as bad as O'Reilly. I want someone with balls and character. As of now, from his own words, I find both lacking in John Edwards and when the closed primaries start, he's history. He should have stood up and been counted and he should just tell the truth about his family.

What a concept. Truth.

If you support him, good on you. I am glad for you. But putting lipstick on a pig doesn't make it anything less than what it is.

Sorry.

RV, still disgusted as I sit here with a whole family of draft bait that he would use up in his Iraq war fetish.
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DaisyUCSB Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. so do you support Kucinich or Sharpton?
because otherwise it's totally hypocritical to rip him on it, including Dean supporters.
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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Nonsense
Edited on Thu Feb-19-04 09:01 PM by RafterMan
There are oceans of difference between each of Edwards' Bush-plus support, Kerry's yeah-but support and however you want to characterize Dean and Clark's "support".

Oceans.

(on edit, I am assuming you refer to war support. On the PA, you will grant that Dean had no hand in writing it.)
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DaisyUCSB Donating Member (455 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. No, this thread is about the patriot act
although I do contend you're characterizations on that as well, Edwards and Kerry voted for the act, Dean and Clark would have voted for it, and if any of them were on the intelligence committee, they would have had to "help write" the act as well. And Edwards is the only candidate to offer a real plan to permanantly protect civil liberties as well
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DemDogs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. This is unbelievable nonsense
Edwards father "became management in a mill faster than lightning"? Not only is that not true, he lost the supervisor job that he ultimately earned (over twenty years after he started third shift) when Milliken replaced its high school graduate supervisors with college graduates company wide.
Edwards takes great pains to say that he was not poor. (Although he -- unlike ever other candidate -- talks about the need to address poverty in this country.) Read his book if you think otherwise.
If you want character as you say, Edwards should be your man because he has taken the heat and not waffled. Whatever you think of his votes, he has explained why he took them, he has explained what he would do differently, and unlike some of the other candidates he has an actual vision for where to take this country.

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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. He is too conservative. Period.
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Goldom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 08:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. call it meaningless, but..
-"the right hand of our government has no idea what the left hand is doing."-

Interesting choice of *which* hand is watching which, wouldn't you say?
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. And that's supposed to convince me of what?
Are there useful provisions in it? Of course. Overall, is it a dangerous bill that further erodes out civil liberties (and proved to just be the foundstion for Patriot II)? Absolutely.

Hell, Dean said he'd keep PARTS of it. It's still a dangerous piece of legislation.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
6. Listen! I was scared to death of new attacks
Edited on Thu Feb-19-04 09:03 PM by Lex


and none of us knew for sure how far we had been infiltrated by persons really wanting to do harm to us. How scared and worried were you for the days and weeks after Sept. 11th?

There were apparently gaping holes in our intelligence gathering abilities, and everyone--including our elected officials--were scrambling to button up things and hoping that we wouldn't be attacked like the attacks on September 11th.

This Bill was written and passed in what? four or five weeks after September 11th? We were afraid we were vunerable and we obviously had been vunerable because of what happened.

Clearly Ashcroft has tried to use it to his own nazi purposes, and the abuses are becoming clear. They need to be fixed. Maybe even most of the provisions need to be thrown out or tightened up.

But I won't castigate John Edwards, or John Kerry, for signing onto bill then. They both knew it would be a work in progress and they were trying to help, not hurt.

With a few years and a lot of perspective under our belts it's easy to scream and cry about it now. Give me a break.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. There were no 'holes' in our intelligence
There was a whole buttload of information that was ignored or overlooked. In the case of info leading to the incrimination of Shrubbie's Saudi fuckbuddies, it was deliberately blocked. According to the investigating committee, 9-11 was preventable. AND THAT MEANS WITH LAWS THAT EXISTED AT THE TIME!

If the problem was finding the needle in the haystack, the Patriot Act so-called 'answer' is adding hundreds of tons more hay to the pile.

Kucinich, though not a lawyer, saw that much at least.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. You said
"According to the investigating committee, 9-11 was preventable. AND THAT MEANS WITH LAWS THAT EXISTED AT THE TIME!"




Did we know that at the time? No.

The conclusions you are pointing to were reached after the investigation. So of course we have that perspective to draw on now.

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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Yes, we did know it at the time
Those of us who read on the Internet about the 10 or so foreign intelligence agencies that passed on warnings, anyway. One would hope that members of the government, whose job it is to be up on this stuff, would do at least as well. Kucinich did.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. If you support the Patriot Act, support it proudly, defend it . When your

family members are seized, explain to those left that it is important for the nation, though not perfect, and you are pleased to support it.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I think we can all agree it has problems
and Kerry and Edwards are the first to admit that.

"When your family members are seized . . . " is a classic straw-man argument and not really worth a response.

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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:16 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Of course it's a straw man
John Edwards *knows* his family members will never be seized.

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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Look up the term
and then get back to me on that.

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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. You look it up
I merely point out that the distortion in the argument is not where you thought it was.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Don't need to.
I understand it perfectly well.

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RafterMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #20
29. Then what is the source of your confusion
in post #10?
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I guess if your family is made of straw ;) If you know any elderly Germans

talk to them. They will tell you it doesn't happen overnight.

There are months, even years, of people saying oh it won't happen to me. And maybe it won't. Maybe it will only happen to your neighbor, your kid's teacher, the guy at the convenience store who gives you free coffee when the card machine is broken, the girl with the "How'd our oil get under their sand?" sign at the peace march, the minister who helps young men learn about conscientious objector options, the adult ed teacher who looks the other way when people without papers slip into the class, the old man who talks too loud, and says the wrong thing, in the wrong place, if you keep your your mouth closed and your head down, it probably won't happen to you.

So support it proudly.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Oh please.
Is that really the depth of your analysis of the Patriot Act and what Edwards said on the Senate floor?



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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #16
22. Apparently, it is, and he/she has not even begun to address the specific
changes that Edwards proposes today should be adopted.
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DuctapeFatwa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. I, and others, have commented extensively on the Patriot Act for 2 years

If you support the Patriot Act, that is your right.

It is unlikely that I or anyone else will persuade you that it is not in your best interests. And of course, I have no way of knowing for sure that it is NOT in your best interests.

It has proven to be quite profitable for some companies.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. John Edwards voted for the PATRIOT Act...
there is no escaping this fact.

It was extremely foolish for him to do so.
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Well there's a thoughtful
analysis of the debate on the Senate floor that kicked off this thread.

Let me ask, was EVERY PROVISION in the Patriot Act 'extremely foolish' do you think?

Or was our intel just hunky damn dory pre-911?

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Not EVERY provision, no...
so what?

If a bill making Bush dictator also called for an end to human rights abuses in China, I would still oppose it - even though I am not a supporter of human rights abuses in China.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. He had no gun against his head to vote for it, especially since
he more than most knew it sucked. He could have taken a principled stand. He was a LAWYER! He is in no position to say it would have been worked out as we go. Ashcroft always was what he is. My family
is going to pay and so are others because he won't say no, this sucks and even if I tried to fix it, its still too fucked up and I won't
vote for it on the floor.

Crap. People are suffering. 9/11 is a crap argument to turn the
bill of rights on its ear. Those who would give up security in some lame attempt to get it will never have it. Period.

This is his mistake. He must bear it just like all the other yellow bellies that sold us out with their votes. They are legion. He's just one running for President. If its baggage, and to me it is, then he must be a man and bear it.

That's what leaders do. Check out Harry Truman.

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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. along with 98 others. How hard it is to grasp the concept that
Edited on Thu Feb-19-04 09:30 PM by spooky3
when bills are complex, are the proposed law at hand addresses some critical and pressing needs, legislators often have to compromise and/or trust that certain effects will follow and may not be able to predict exactly what the future will hold?

When the future shows that changes are needed, responsible legislators then try to propose specific changes and get them passed. Kerry and Edwards did that. They may lack the power to get this done.

This is not high school. This is the reality of the complex process of living in a democracy and in a complex world.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. THANK YOU!! Finally, someone who grasps that BILLS ARE NOT SINGLE ISSUE!!
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Ardee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
32. overriding issues
so using the bill of rights as so much toilet paper is fine with you, huh? Gee , those complex issues are just to much, to complex to save outr freedoms....

A pity you werent with Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hancock and company , you could have talked them out of the revolution after all it isnt any one single issue thats important.
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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Bush and his administration are not trustworthy...
NOTHING ELSE in the bill was worth knocking out necessary regulation of government "intelligence-gathering" tactics.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. responsible legislators read and analyze bills...
...BEFORE they vote for or against them (or have them read by legislative assistants-- you get the idea).
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. At the time, it was considered
an emergency measure, immediately post-9/11. They were trying to be pro-active and 'work together' to fill in what they perceived at the time to be gaps in intelligence gathering and analyzing.

But then too, they probably were scared that while they were analyzing and reading and studying all the ramifications (as per the usual method) that we would be attacked again and then fingers would've been pointed at them for NOT passing legislation quickly.

We can all see it clearly NOW, but I just don't think it was so clear then.

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Darranar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-19-04 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
26. Question...
Edited on Thu Feb-19-04 09:39 PM by Darranar
I searched for information on S. 1510, and found the Permanent Partners Immigration Act of 2003. It was introduced on 7/31/2003.

Is this an error? Am I missing something?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-21-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
34. To get rid of the PA's bad parts
All we need is for a half dozen freepers to be sent to Gitmo and the law would be changed so fast it'd make the capitol building spin.

Wouldn't it be great if one of the first things our Dem POTUS does next January is arrest a few hundred freeper suspects?
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