What happened to me???????????????????????

[Khephra]

I'm actually glad that Nader seems to be entering the race.

I've been anti-Nader for the last 3 years. Right now all I'll say is "go for it!"

[Guava Jelly]

1. you started liking bush??

you want the vote divided so Bush can have 4 more years??

[Joe the Revelator]

8. That sounds about right

I hope Nadar chokes on his Tofu tonight...

[CivilRightsNow]

103. Karma is a bitch...

So good luck with that energy when it comes back to you.

[pezcore64]

15. oh yeah!

That must be it!
if someone doesnt like whats going on in the Democratic party he must LOVE bush!
god youre so smart!
we should just let you run the party!


God, i swear, some of you people sound just like those we are supposedly trying to take the white house back from.

Id hate for the democratic party to have to LEARN AGAIN from is mistakes of IGNORING PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS in the last election cycle. I fear history may repeat itself.

[Joe the Revelator]

21. All these empty threats

are actually quite funny. Take you're vote and run if you don't like the party. The rest of us know you have to take small steps to the left when the giant leap to that side doesn't work. If you ever want a PROGRESSIVE canidate NOT to be marginalized into a radical third party, stay and support your party. If not its your choice.

For the record, if one decides to waste their vote on someone like Nadar, then in effect that person is supporting Bush by proxy.

[ewagner]

31. Well said...

Most of us forget that the nation has been slowly indoctrinated into the belief that we are a "conservative" nation by nature since Ronnie Ray-gun took office. Clinton recognized that being hard left was impossible, so he picked the "low hanging furuit" when he could and steered for the middle. It will take 8 or maybe 16 years of good, progressive administrations working incrementially before the nation turns to its true progressive nature.

[youngred]

84. Well when you all marginalze every progressive that comes up

what else are we to do? Stay in a party that hates us?

[jonnyblitz]

202. ya think?

:hi:

[mdmc]

192. Should supporting Bush by proxy be illegal at DU?

Change the Democratic PArty = death of Greens.
Offer lite Republicanism = the death of our party.

[Old and In the Way]

36. "you people"

What kind of people are you?

I consider myself a progressive Democrat and I plan to support the nominee. Unless you're from the Masochistic Wing of the Democratic Party, I see no logical reason you wouldn't support the nominee. Unless you have a completely different agenda from "us people".

[Joe the Revelator]

39. "Masochistic Wing of the Democratic Party"

Thank you for coining that OAITW :).

[pezcore64]

99. UGH

Look, if you find the phrase 'you people' offensive or degrading in any way then i suggest you dont go outside. you'll have a heart attack.
you're being way overally sensitive. if you are going to try and slander me, atleast do it with your reasoning of disagreement, not trying to portray me as something im not.

[Old and In the Way]

128. No, you made the classification "you people"

That would infer you are not part of "us people". Since "us people" is defined in this thread as Democrats who support the nomineee, I simply asked you to explain "what people" you are.

You provided a non-answer to my question.

[emulatorloo]

66. Bush will ignore PROGRESSIVES more than Kerry or Edwards will

I will hate to have to personally LEARN AGAIN the mistake of having BUSH for 4 more years in the WHITE HOUSE.

[arwalden]

191. This Doesn't Matter To Them. Purity Is What They Seek...

even if it means losing.

Insane, eh? And they wonder why everyone considers them to be lunatics.

-- Allen

[youngred]

196. You seem to know an awful lot about what "they" think

for someone who continually refuses to get it while attacking anyone to the left of Clinton.

[arwalden]

197. Yes Youngred... I Certainly Do. Thanks For Noticing!

But there's more at stake than the idealogical purity they seek. There's more at stake than someone's personal assessment of me. I seek what's best for this country given the two choices we will have.

-- Allen

[Forkboy]

210. Funny

the people who seek purges and banning are the ones who demand purity.

[youngred]

215. Right over your head

though I suspect your just being a smartass.

Sadly you just seem to ignore the progressives who want to work with you, paint a stereotype and then attack.

It;s kinda sad when you consider how much good you could be doing for the party instead of helping to destroy it

[arwalden]

224. The Intentions Of Progressives Are Well-Known

and "sadly" (as you say) their intentions to provide a net-gain of votes to the criminal Bush are not a realistic example of "wanting to work with" anyone at all.

>> It;s kinda sad when you consider how much good you could be doing for the party instead of helping to destroy it <<

I'm pretty confident that the irony of that sentence escapes some folks... because it is the stubborn self-righteous "progressives" who seek to destroy (so that they can rebuild?).

At this late hour... with the elections looming... my focus is on removing the criminal Bush* from office. All this bickering... WHAT A WASTE OF TIME! Our party is what it is... it's imperfect, but it's the only one we've got to replace the criminal Bush* with.

Protest votes designed to send a message to the party... "the man", "the establishment", the "Great Satan DLC"... those protest votes benefit the criminal Bush*.

Another four years of the criminal Bush* mean BACKWARD STEPS and losses for progressive values. The progressive folks will also be further isolated and will permanently cementing themselves into the outer wings of the Democratic party.

-- Allen

P.S. I'll give you a pass on the name-calling. This is a far more important issue than anyone's personal problems or personal dislike for me.

[youngred]

225. I have no personal dislike for you at all

what I dislike is the ignorant and absolutist attitude you have taken towards progressives of late. You're creating nothing but strawmen to argue against Allen, and its kinda sad really.

It's not even worth arguing with you anymore, since you have no idea what you're talking about, and willfully ignore all evidence contrary to your beliefs

[Claire Beth]

77. I totally agree with you! n/t

[Rich Hunt]

92. he'll have 'em spied on and locked up

...is what he'll do.

[BigDaddyLove]

107. Fuck progressive Democrats and the donkey they rode in on....

If they are not happy that their particular brand of Spotted Owl won't get protected by the Dem nominee and decide to vote 3rd. party in the G.E., when (possibly) the fate of the entire world depends on what happens in November, then I say they shouldn't even be Democrats at all.

Go cry in your fucking granola....then cast your vote for Bush.

[youngred]

111. and people wonder why we feel alienated in our own party

:eyes:

[BigDaddyLove]

118. I don't give a fuck that some feel alienated by the Dem party......

We now find ourselves in an era in which mealy-mouthed liberals need to stand the fuck up and fight.

Get Bush the Hell out of office, AND THEN work on your various progressive agendas.....you will certainly go a long way toward alienating yourself from 'our' party if you work against it by helping to get Bush four more years.

What kind of reception do you expect from mainstream Democrats when your message is "I just can't vote to get Bush out of office because I think Kerry and Edwards are just more of the same"? What do people have to do to get you (and yours) to see that both candidates are MUCH different from Bush?

:eyes: right back at 'ya Cuz.

[youngred]

122. You have some pretty....Republican....names for progressives and liberals

going on there. Throw up some stereotypes, and bullshit assertions based on your own preconcieved notions and fail to address the cause while going on the attack. Nicely done. Sounds like Bush's policy on terrorism.

For the Record I, like many progressives are indeed ABB. Kerry is my second choice and has been for over a year. We recognize the dnager in another 4 years of Bush. We are willing to go the lengths to get him out of office. The Green Party is NOT running a candidate for this very reason. We ARE standing up to fight, but find ourselves continually demonized by our own party in addition to the media black-listing. I personally think Ralph Nader is an egotistic, selfish prat. I would never vote for him because I simply don't like him nor trust him, that doesnt mean I don't respect and like the platform he claims to support. So your assertion about me and mine is absolute horseshit.

Have you every heard the old saying you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Well your post is exactly the kind of thing that is meant to demonstrate. We are not fools and can see precisely what the deal is. I abhor the DLC, but recognize that they are slightly less dangerous than Bush. I am and always have been a Democratic Party Member. I likely always will be. However that does not stop me from wondering why when I read insulting BULLSHIT scholck like your posts. Why should we stick around and be referred to as 'kooks', 'mealy-mouthed', 'fringe' and all the other perjoratives these posts tend to bring out? Why stick around to be insulted? If you hate us that much then you won't miss our votes right? but instead of addressing our concerns and feelings and ideas you bully, threaten and try to scare us.

So try some civilty, some logic, some honesty, some fairness and some respect and perhaps you wouldn't have Progressives feeling that the only person who speaks to us is Ralph Nader and not the DLC poster boy de jure.

[BigDaddyLove]

129. I only used the phrase 'mealy-mouthed'........

not the other monikers you have somehow found hiding in my posts.

I would not and never have tried to bully, threaten or scare you or anyone else when it comes to persuading you to vote for the Democratic nominee; the thought of Bush in office for four more years is scary enough, and if not, then NOTHING I could do or say would be.

What the fuck is your point then if you agree with not going 3rd. party and are ABB this year? That mainstream Democrats should be 'nicer' to you? I could care less if your feelings were hurt...grow some thicker skin; this ain't your Momma's General Election.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

131. the "debate" between the two of you is a perfect example of why this is...

a huge issue. I would hazard to guess that your ideals are quite the same. The failings of many in our party and the divisiveness of this egomaniac (who I definately suspect of being a right wing tool) and the fact that are party can't meet at an effective middle ground

[BigDaddyLove]

134. I agree, and it sucks because it seems like it gets harder......

and harder as a party to do anything constructive because everyone seems to be going in so many different directions at once......the Democratic Party seems unable to hold every Democrats' preferred issue to the fore (primarily because it would be impossible), and as such there are very few issues that unite the entire party.

The Republicans on the other hand seem to have found a way to get everyone on the same (misguided) page, and as such they're all able to move together in one direction.

In this upcoming election, the overriding issue for ALL Democrats (and any one else for that matter), should be getting Bush out of office, he and his hard right agendas are an absolute cancer to America that MUST be removed; without this happening, we can forget about there being much of an America left for a Democrat or Green (or a whatever else) to run to lead in 2008.

[youngred]

135. oh yeah, that's it!

its everybody but you who's the problem. We're all so selfish and arrogant and thoughtless we should just do whatever you think is best and rally round to those who silence and hate us

[BigDaddyLove]

139. What the fuck are you even talking about?

Which decoder are you using to decipher my posts? It needs a serious trip to the shop.

I want you to do what you think is best. O.K.? Go for it!!!!!

[youngred]

143. You're saying everyone should rally round correct?

I agree. Where I disagree is that I should continually, year after year after year have my voice discounted and insulted by the party and then have them expect that every four years I will recognize the danger (which is certainly real) in a republican win.

Keep alienating your base and they will become disenfranchised, that's the reason that Nader got as much as he did in 2000. I can understand WHY people would feel that way even if I can't necessarily agree with them

[BigDaddyLove]

146. The far left is not the Democratic 'base', and never will be......

to pretend that it is is crazy talk....in fact DU isn't even the Democratic base; it's a lot more liberal here than in the real world believe it or not.

[youngred]

149. right

**warning rolling eyes emoticon coming**

:eyes:

The Progressive left is the base of the party, not the Militant Moderates

[BigDaddyLove]

151. But but but, I thought they all voted for Nader in 2000?

Moderate Democrats get Democrats elected, while the far left sits around in a drum circle bitching about why marijuana isn't legal.

[youngred]

153. So many stupid Stereotypes so little time

and you say you haven't been posting idiotic statements!

So if you don't want us around so much why bother hating us for not voting 3rd party? We're only the fringe right?

[BigDaddyLove]

156. Yes, the far left is fringe, and basically a joke...........

but more than that they get on my nerves.

[youngred]

158. a mature and logical reason to hate someone

:eyes:

Sorry to keep using that emoticon but your posts just keep bringing out that sentiment

[BigDaddyLove]

163. What hate are you referring to? When have I ever said that I....

hate anyone or anything?

I don't hate you or anyone else you feels the way you do.

If you keep making faces like that your face might freeze up that way.

[youngred]

164. Thanks Mom

patronization on insult.

hate too strong perhaps, but you certainly show no respect and downright animosity towards progressives.

[BigDaddyLove]

167. I've been called many things, but never 'Mom'........

that's a new one.

I'm sorry if you feel the way that you do with regard to where Progressives fall on my animosity scale, but I can assure you that this estimation is in error.

[youngred]

168. Well

telling me my face would freeze that way was always something mom said so well deserved.

You have given no reason to think that you feel any other way by including such vulgar RW stereotypes and insults in your posts when I've been trying to engage a positive debate

[BigDaddyLove]

172. We're not really debating.........

You are saying that I am pushing you away from the party, and I am saying that I don't care where you go and more than that I don't care to influence you one way or the other....my only desire at this point is to see Bush banished from the White House, a desire we seem to share.

It's been more of a conversation than a debate.

[youngred]

175. now you're going to play semantics?

:wtf: there new emoticon for you.

You say you want to get rid of Bush, but then contribute to the very thing which helps Bush's re-election.

So which is it? Do you want to beat Bush or do you want to continue driving Progressives to third parties?

[BigDaddyLove]

180. Fuck it, I give up, you win...................

I have 'NOW' to watch.


Later.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

177. All of us care to get Bush out

But not all of us choose to give up what we believe in to get it done. That's just my two cents on this issue. I still fail to see what point you're trying to make in this whole conversation.

[Darranar]

176. Uh...

You say:

I'm sorry if you feel the way that you do with regard to where Progressives fall on my animosity scale, but I can assure you that this estimation is in error.

Earlier you said:

Fuck progressive democrats

Please explain the contradiction.

[BigDaddyLove]

181. Figure of speech...........

Used primarily because I detected a distinct "I'm a Progressive Democrat, and if I don't get everything I want, then I'm gonna vote for Nader.....I'm gonna teach the DLC a lesson".

Sufficient?

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

184. That's a figure of speech?

I see "it's raining cats and dogs" but "Fuck progressive democrats" isn't in my figure of speech manual. Help me find it.

[Darranar]

185. Figure of speech?

"Progressive democrats" is a far larger camp then green voters, former green voters, to-be green voters, and the like.

It would be the equivalent of me saying "fuck centrist democrats" because I didn't like Zell Miller endorsing Bush. Or "fuck ABBers" because I didn't like the few who love the DLC.

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

166. BigDaddyLove, I've been reading through your entire conversation here.

youngred has made several good points but you continue to not make any sense at all. You obviously have not an ounce of respect for anybody else's opinion but your own. None of us are saying you have to agree with the progressive democrats, but if you're looking for their votes on your particular candidate, don't be surprised when they won't vote for them because you've been alienating them. And instead of trying to make a coherant point, you've been hurling insults at everything, including what emoticons someone chooses to use.

[BigDaddyLove]

169. Thanks for your interest and carefully crafted criticism......

I don't have a particular candidate, though I know that the present visitor in the White House isn't him.

I also disagree, Youngred has made only one good point, not several.

It's not my job nor inclination to push away or draw near any free thinking person.....Youngred may think, act and vote as he/she sees fit, I don't care.

[youngred]

136. I would agree

but its hard to rally round when one find's one's ideas and voice continually squashed and silenced. I'm willing to do my part to rally round, but I cannot let false insults and unecessary attacks stand.

[youngred]

133. I said in posts like these

You also told us:
"Fuck progressive Democrats and the donkey they rode in on"

and to:

"Go cry in your fucking granola"

I try to point out why we feel the need to go third party and you remain on the attack. How...liberal of you :eyes:

You claim not ho have but your whole post is a list of bullying statements, threats and scare tacitcs.

I'm voting ABB because its the right thing to do, and I, as I said, will likely always vote democratic. Do you have a problem actually reading what I;m writing, because you're sure as hell missing the points I'm making. It's not about feelings being hurt, its about a systematic disenfranchisement of the left, aided and abetted by the Democratic party and SOME PEOPLE are sick of it.

This also ain't my momma's Democratic Party, that abandoned her progressivism and mine to play the third way.

[BigDaddyLove]

138. Yeah a third party would be great.......

but right now in 2004 it is not a viable option, and I honestly believe that if you think it ever will be a viable option in America then you are delusional.....sorry.

We (maybe not you, but whatever) as Democrats need to do as much as we can as Democrats to change our party from within....if you don't want to play then take your ball and go home.


....and stop with the fucking rolling eyes already.

[youngred]

141. Where did I EVER say it was viable?

Nowhere, I'm perfectly aware of the practicalities of the American system thank you and I don't need you to educate me on it thanks.

I AM working to change my party from within, that's why I'm still a Democratic party member and always will be. I'm not taking my ball and going home I'm there fighting for what I believe is right for the party.

I'll stop with the rolling eyes when you stop with the idiotic statements and mischaracterizations. You've continually been assigning to me fals ideas of what I am

[BigDaddyLove]

144. Two 'thank you's' in one sentence.........

I'm touched.

I'm glad that you're allowing everyone to play with your ball and not taking it home with you.

I'm not as glad that you think my statements are idiotic, as I have yet to utter a single idiotic statement.....you've captured that honor yourself very nicely thus far.

You're right, I don't know what you are and I don't really care......actually that's not true, I DO care, I REALLY DO care.

[youngred]

148. Keep going

You're alienating more and more people!

You've laid down plenty of idiotic statements, haven't even bothered to listen to what I write and instead just behave in a boorish manner. Get back to me when you're ready to discuss maturely and without insult the ways in which we can draw the democratic party together and work as one to beat Bush....rather than being rude, obnoxious, selfish, bully people and then complain when we feel more drawn to third parties than to the "party of inclusion"

[BigDaddyLove]

152. I am not the Democratic Party for fuck's sake.........

I am a Democrat...ONE of Millions.....I do not speak for anyone else but me.....if you don't like what I'm saying (which you don't), then so the fuck what?.....do what YOU want.....be as progressive as you wanna be....I don't care.....I encourage your progressiveness....YOU GO GIRL/GUY!!!!!!

[youngred]

154. because its EXACTLY sentiments like those you've expressed

that are causing such a devide in the party and handing Bush and teh republicans victory after victory

[BigDaddyLove]

159. O.K. then, please let me in on how I should conduct myself......

in the future so that I don't the party anymore and so that the Republicans can no longer draw upon this divide to win election after election.

Aside from suggesting that you do what you feel is right and continue on your progressive path, I'm at a loss for what else you might want.

[youngred]

160. Some respect is a start

For the party as a whole maybe instead of running away from the Progressive values of our greatest party members (JFK, FDR, HST) and towards the ideals that more closely resemble Nixon's policies than Democratic policies. Maybe providing a solid alternative to Bush rather than a bunch of pre-crowned moderates and shutting off the voices for change within the party.

Just a start

[ldoolin]

203. Yeah, I noticed that too.

"spotted owl"? "granola"?

Stereotyping straight off of Free Republic, that says more than anyone would want to know about this person's attitude toward the Earth.

[Indiana Democrat]

126. "Go cry in your fucking granola"

:headbang:

[youngred]

142. constructive way to build a unifed movement

riiiiiiiiight

[BigDaddyLove]

145. At least I didn't tell you to choke on your fucking Granola......

I'm way too progressive for that.

[youngred]

150. With friends like these

who needs Bushes

[BigDaddyLove]

155. I'm sorry if I go against your 'can't we all just get along' mantra....

so that we can all fit into a nice little predetermined norm that we can point to as a ' Progressive Democrat'.

Damn, I've forgotten what we were fighting about....oh well, I appreciate the energy you put into the argument and I sincerely wish you well.

[youngred]

157. keep using republican stereotypes

I don't want that everyone should fit the same model or that we should all get along and never disagree. If I wanted that I'd be a Republican. But some basic respect for a group whose vote you want is just common sense.

We were fighting about you hurling abuses on Progressives who feel disenfranchised and that being the reason that Progressives feel that way.

[BigDaddyLove]

161. I don't want your vote in the way that you seem to suggest.......

that I do.

The only thing I want is Bush out of office, and the only way for that to happen if is the Democrat in the race gets more votes.....other than that I have no other motive to make you or anyone else a mainstream Democrat, or to abandon your beliefs.

[youngred]

162. But see there's the crux

We all rally round and beat Bush this time around. In 2008 the republican's run someone else as bad (and believe me they will), but by that point there is no clear imperative for the left to stick around and further the Dems have spent 4 more years marching to the right and alienating the left and we get a Bush Redux.

This is a MAJOR problem that the party has to adress if it hopes to go anywhere

[BigDaddyLove]

165. What then do you suggest the Democratic Party remake itself.....

into so that the 'left' which you keep referring to feels like it's welcome?

Unfortunately if (as you suggested in a previous post) this 'Left' consists of people who went Green in 2000, I doubt very much that the 2.7% of the vote that they garnered is going to make a difference to the Democrats as a whole.

[youngred]

171. And how many progressives also voted Dem

because they recognized the danger of Bush. The Conservatives used to be that fraction of the population that you deride, but they've managed to drag the whole country with them to the right, or at least fool them into thinking voting that way was the best for their interests. The Democratic party must stop following along with the Conservative agenda and stand up for itself and its principles instead of giving in over and over. I don't say we should drag ourselves completely to the far left, but at least give the base a nod or two every once in awhile.

[BigDaddyLove]

174. I mostly agree.........

Though I don't think that the people of this country have moved to the right as a whole...I think the political debate has, and it may seem like it has in other ways, but I think that the vast majority of Americans are loving, kind people and as such are still left leaning.

I also don't agree that the Democratic base is what you are referring to as the far left......on this we just disagree.

[youngred]

179. The definition of base

is the hard core of people that match the ideology of the party. Progressives believe everything the Democrats stand for...or at least did at one point. It's a basic political science definition.

I would agree that that the debate has moved to the right, as have the politicians. Hell, Nixon was more liberal than many of the Democratic politicans we have today. To get it back to what it once was (and away from the likes of Bush and Raygun) we have to swing the pendulum of debate and policy back to the left. That is why I'm a progressive and a Democrat

[LeftPeopleFinishFirst]

178. Not all the progressive Democrats voted Green in 2000

That is a huge, huge generalization you make there.

[goodhue]

206. indeed

This progressive democrat voted Gore in 2000, Nader in 1996. In 2004 its Kucinich!

[arwalden]

205. There Is No "Building" Unification. This Divide Cannot Be Bridged.

These folks have already made up their minds. At this point it's just an exercise in BBS oneupmanship and trying to be the one who gets in the last word before a thread is locked. It's a game for most. (Although it would be difficult to get anyone to admit it.)

And let's just say... (humor me) that peace broke out all over DU and we all held hands and ate our granola and drank tea and sang Kum-Bah-Ya. --- Everybody is friends again. (Yeah right... keep humoring me.)

Given that fantasy scenario... what exactly has it changed about Kerry that the "ultra left" despises so much? He's still the same Kerry. And he'll still be despised just as much. A lack of bickering here does not mean a change in party leadership nor does it change the likelihood of who the eventual nominee will be.

We'll see who has the "last word" when the GE rules go into effect. When that happens, I'm imagine that many folks will probably decide for themselves that they would prefer to move on and find forums that more closely mirror their political viewpoints and progressive principles.

-- Allen

[youngred]

208. You're right, with posts like yours there cannot be unification

If people on both sides actually tried though who knows what's possible

[arwalden]

222. I Choose To Remove The Criminals...

Youngred... while some folks may feel indignation at my frank and vulgar posts, my posts themselves ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. I'm certain a smart fellow such as yourself doesn't truly believe such ridiculous statements.

My posts ARE A RESPONSE to the traitorous and unconscionable actions of the so-called "progressives" and their so-called attachment to progressive principles.

Despite their repeated denials of basic mathematical and electoral facts, there can be no doubt that any action of theirs which does not directly benefit the vote-count of the Democratic nominee, will have the net effect of benefiting the criminal Bush*.

MY POSTS ARE NOT THE PROBLEM. The true problem lies in the actions (or inactions) of the idealists who have fooled themselves into believing that Nader (or any 3rd party candidate) could actually win the election. This will not happen.

Or perhaps they believe that even though "the man" and "the establishment" will conspire to prevent their candidate from winning---if they can get squeak out 5% of the vote, then things will "improve by 5%". WRONG! NA-GANNA-HAPPEN!

The candidate who got 5% of the vote will have ZERO effect on policy and lawmaking. The criminal Bush* will be in power. -- The mechanics of this have been discussed repeatedly here and anyone who hasn't figured it out by now is simply not paying attention (or doesn't care.)

You speak of wanting to know what's "possible" my young friend. I believe that imagining the possibilities are a wonderful thing. But it is a DANGEROUS thing to live only in the fantasyland of wishful thinking and ignoring the FACT that supporting a 3rd party candidate instead of the Democratic nominee will benefit the criminal Bush*.

Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that it's "messages like mine" that drive people to vote for Nader? Good grief! --- Messages like mine are a RESPONSE to those folks who have already made up their minds and have publicly announced their intentions.

My vulgar messages are very tame... children's hour in fact... when compared to the VULGAR, OBSCENE, REPUGNANT AND SICKENING display of selfishness demonstrated by those who call themselves "progressives." It's disgusting, damnable and traitorous.

I take no delight in my anger and in how much I despise the sanctimony of the rebellious "progressives". I fail to see the same sense of regret coming from the other side. Instead I see giddiness and OUTRIGHT GLEE coming from them. --- Their glee, of course, is a response to the imagined "power" they feel they now wield. That so-called power they believe they have is a mere illusion.

Progressives should realize that the only "power" they have is the ability to literally HAND OVER THE ELECTION to the criminal Bush. That is not "power"... it's a position of WEAKNESS. It's tactical weakness coming from a stubborn refusal to accept the reality of what really is... and it's a political weakness coming from a sense of despair and loss of hope (and in wanting to inflict as much damage as possible during their political swan-song). --- Both are immature responses to a very serious situation.

Those who point fingers and level hollow accusations on me about my "attitude" being the problem and the driving force behind their treasonous actions are simply idiotic. The scorn heaped upon me is undeserved.

Any rational human being can see that if my personal disgust with those people were to suddenly disappear... they would still feel the same way and would be just as unwilling to listen to reason as they were BEFORE I posted my first angry rant.

I suppose that I should be flattered that some people wish to attribute this problem to ME... ME AND MY RANTS... WOW! (I feel a little like Sally Field).

Some folks want people on "both sides" to see "what's possible"? I understand those sentiments... but at this late hour, there is a big difference between possibilities and likelihoods. I put it back to those people that ONE SIDE already knows what will happen when people support a 3rd-party instead of the Democratic nominee.

Those on the "progressive" side need to open their eyes and see that very real and very dangerous possibility. THAT, my young friend, is "what's possible".

I'm voting to REMOVE the criminal Bush from office. Will you be voting to remove him from office? Or will you be casting a vote that helps to keep him in office?

The ONLY candidate who stands a chance at removing the criminal Bush from office is NOT PERFECT. But he is a far better man and far less dangerous to the country and to the world than the criminal Bush is. Our imperfect candidate has more in common and shares more progressive values that the criminal Bush does.

-- Allen

[youngred]

228. You're arguing ABB with someone who IS ABB

do you even realise that?

the Progressives are not the root of all evil Allen, never were and never shall be. I know the dem nominee won't be perfect but I will vote for him because he will be more perfect than Bush 20 ways til Sunday.

Allen you are addressing all the realites but the most important one. WHY? Why are the progressives leaving the party? Why do they feel that the dems no longer represent them? Could it be posts like yours which call them traitors because they are thinking about excersising their democratic freedoms? Might it be posts that tell us to "go cry in (our) granola" that are the problem? Why should progressives stick around for that kind of abuse? Why should we be a part of a party that is now more conservative than Richard Nixon? The Democratic party pays lip service to progressive ideals (sometimes) but unfortunately rarely acts on them. Many/Most progressives aren't the 'bomb throwing' 'radical' 'fringe' that they are assumed to be. Many/Most of them are loyal democrats who will be ABB come November because they recognize the danger of Bush....but do you recognize the danger of alienating them permanantly?

I said it was posts like yours that create and aide this division. I'm not heaping scorn on you like you say, but I am dismayed that you can even for a second think your constant vitrol against anything left (Democrat or not) is helpful to ANYONE but the Republicans. Telling people we don't need them here makes them LESS likely to vote the way you want. Calling people traitors makes them LESS likely to vote the way you want. Insulting and sterotyping people makes them LESS likely to vote the way you want. An appeal to their sense, civility, respect and a concession or two here and there from the party would GUARANTEE their votes. Why do third parties arise? Because voters have become dissaffected with one or both of the major parties. It's a simple law of politics.

Do you not think that maybe your efforts would be better spent positively building connections to progressives, or if you still hate them so much maybe concentrating on the TEN TIMES larger group of voters who don't even come to the polls. Who needs that measely 5% that *might* have gone 3rd party when you can get 50% of the electorate.

You completely misinterpert my use of the word possible to paint me as a air-headed idealist. That is not the case. I have my ideals, I have my hopes and dreams, but first and foremost I am a pragmatist. If I acted on my ideals alone I wouldn't be a Democratic party member nor would I vote for them. However, I recognize that they are the only party that can and occasionally does represent me. Therefore I am a Dem and will vote ABB, and there are millions and millions like me. However, you take a small number of dissatisfied people and extrapolate that to an entire wing of the party, create a strawman and attack attack attack (no, its not in response to them because the people you've attacked here are Dem supporters, even if they speak for the rights of Nader and his supporters). That is not helpful, that is destructive. If one undecided progressive reads posts like yours and some of the others on this thread do you really think they'll feel welcome within this party? Do you think they will want to vote for a party which no longer welcomes them?

Assume Nader runs again, I doubt HIGHLY that he will even reach 1% of the vote, and if the Democrats cannot beat Bush with the wide array of scandals, problems, issues available they are pretty sad indeed, and it will be a direct result of their embracing of the foolish third way at the expense of their traditional constituencies. There are so many many more ways in which Al Gore could have/should have won in 2000 that blaming it solely on Nader is ridiculous. You want Nader's voters convince them to vote for you and not him. You don't do that by ceaselessly attacking them.

[PVnRT]

209. How do you know it won't work? It's never been tried

Whatever, the progressives will just get to the back of the bus and do what the DLC tells us to do...

[arwalden]

223. Progressives Are NOT The Victim They Are Pretending To Be... NOT YET.

The paranoia exhibited by these folks is unwarranted. The scorn heaped upon me (and folks who think as I do) is undeserved.

Please see post #222 for more of my thoughs on this matter.

-- Allen

[PVnRT]

226. Heaping scorn

Seems to me that there's plenty of that going around on both sides.

[youngred]

229. "heaping scorn"

aparently Irony is indeed dead

[IconoclastIlene]

193. Cry in your granola..

damn straight.....who are these progressives that allowed for conditions to arise to make the shrub able to usurp the true winner of the election albeit with the help of his brother.

Ride back out, puleeze.

Give 'em hell Harry.

[Renew Deal]

201. This makes my purge post look like a christmas card.

Damn

[Capn Sunshine]

219. all it needs is a bow

but I'm pretty sure YOU aren't a freeper.

dipwad up there, I'm not so sure.

[PVnRT]

204. With statements like that

it's so hard to see why so many get turned off from the Democratic Party. I really can't understand it!

Nice freeper talking points by the way, but others have pointed that out already.

[youngred]

83. That's just insulting

and particularly disgusting.

[littlejoe]

98. I share the same"insulting" thought n/t

[polpilot]

127. You can't stand the thought of voting Bush-Lite in '04???

I meant Bush-like!

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. Egads!

I can't support that.

[soleft]

3. I don't know but nip in the bud dude!

[The Magistrate]

4. Take A Grip, My Friend

This holds real potential for disaster....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Slice]

7. He knows this.

He knows that his candidate(Dean) went nowhere, so now he is just trying to make all of us feel bad and plead for him to reconsider. his vote is not that important.

[tom_paine]

17. I agree with The Magistrate--- get a grip, kef!

[littlejoe]

101. Disaster looming..........storm clouds on the horizon.....

[Slice]

5. Lame

I can't wait till the rules take effect and you won't be able to say these things any more.

[The Magistrate]

22. Sir....

Mr. Khephra is a friend, and immensely senior in these precincts. He is a damned good fellow, and my advice would be to walk a little softly in personal exchanges....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Slice]

28. With all due respect, Magistrate,

I don't think mr. khephra will be as affected as others would be by a Bush re-election. We have a lot more at stake than I think he can comprehend. I stand by my comments.

[The Magistrate]

37. Mr. Khephra, Sir

Will recover his senses in a day or so; he is a sound fellow.

What you base your view of his circumstances on is beyond me....

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[youngred]

87. Knowing Keph somewhat well

I'd say he has a LOT more to lose from another 4 Bush years. You do not know him yet you cast pretty nasty aspersions on him.

[hippiechick]

100. Slice, you are talking out of your ....

Kheph is a very close and personal friend - almost a family member - of mine and BELIEVE ME you don't have a clue WTF you are talking about.

The ignorance of your post is incredulous.

:hippie:

[littlejoe]

105. funny, you don't sound like the hippie chicks I used to know.

[youngred]

86. YAY CENSORSHIP

Woo-fucking-hoo.

[CivilRightsNow]

104. You seem to know an awful lot about the "rules"...

from your whopping post count of 148

Now come on.. who did you used to be?

[Forkboy]

212. And once again

we see who really is demanding purity.

[Suziq]

6. I Would Seek . . .

professional help! Did you not learn anything from the 2000 election.

:hippie:

[Avalux]

9. Why?

Give me one good reason why you're "glad". You know what happened in 2000. Do you really want to go there again?

[a_random_joel]

10. yikes

I am so sorry.

See you in the draft!

[maddezmom]

11. Throw YOUR Support to Dennis Kucinich

not Nadar, JMO.

[rbnyc]

58. Good Answer! (nt)

[Walt Starr]

12. I hope for tons of third party runs

I'd love to see a ballot with at least a dozen choices. It may water down both parties a bit and make them both take notice.

[littlejoe]

106. Ahhhh, a man who takes true pleasure in

sticking his finger in the collective eye of society.

[sadiesworld]

13. I assume khephra's candidate is out ...

so is mine. Suck it up. ABB.

[littlejoe]

108. Amen

[rucky]

14. Uh, oh. the Democrats will have to make a sincere gesture

to the progressive wing of the party.

that's gotta hurt.

[denverbill]

19. They have already made a sincere gesture to the progressive wing.

They flipped us the bird.

[CivilRightsNow]

109. LOL...

That they did, my friend.

I mean hell, what would the ABBers do if there was no Nader to blame and the Dem candidate lost?

*Shudder*

I bet it wouldnt be: Take responsibility for their homogenized shift to the right and passive agressive proclivities for corporate sponsorship.

[eric_schafer]

113. well spoken (nm)

[bicentennial_baby]

16. I love you Kheph

Seriously :loveya:

[littlejoe]

110. Age has a way of tempering bad judgement.

[youngred]

114. so what's the excuse of the DLC?

eh?

[littlejoe]

119. The axiom doesn't apply to everyone. Some people

never learn.

[youngred]

123. that's true

some never learn that alienating people drives them away

[bicentennial_baby]

173. why are you responding to me?

I was simply telling my friend Kheph that I love him. It was in no way a comment on the subject of his post.

[DeepModem Mom]

18. Oh, dear God --

I love DU, but I think I'm going to have to find a forum dedicated to the removal of George W. Bush and his jack-boot thugs. I lurked here, and then started posting, because this place helped me keep my sanity after Bush, Baker, the Florida mob, and the SC Five stole an American Presidential election. Now this place is driving me effing crazy --

[Joe the Revelator]

27. I think quite simply

If you're not willing to support the DEMOCRATIC canidate, then you should not be able to post pro-Nadar drivial on the DEMOCRATIC underground during an election year. Go find a greenie board to do that on.

[DeepModem Mom]

44. For a while, Nader stuff was confined to one thread, iirc --

I brought up this possibility again on Ask the Administrators, and the thought was that emotions were running high right now, and things should settle down. The rules state, I believe, that the forum is for Democrats and other progressives, so we apparently do not exclude third-party supporters. But you are right -- it's called Democratic Underground, and folks who want to vote for Nader, or stay home in November, might feel more comfortable on another forum, and I would feel more comfortable among people whose goal is removing GW Bush from office through the flawed, but, in my opinion, most realistic, means we have of accomplishing that goal: the Democratic Party and its imperfect candidate.

[Tinoire]

80. The irony in some of these posts is astounding.

You don't seem to have any idea to WHOM your comment is addressed. Astounding.

It's also astounding how the level & qualitiy of discourse have degenerated in the last few months.

Kephra has PROVEN himself as a loyal, fighting DEMOCRAT who has been paying attention to the news for 3+ years fighting against Bush and for democracy.

That is a claim not everyone on this board can make.

Welcome, by the way, to DU. DU a board where Greens and Democrats were working together on the issues that drive elections since the DLC's idea of trying to hold voters hostage has already been proven not to work.

[CivilRightsNow]

112. "Were" being the operative word in that sentence

Welcome, by the way, to DU. DU a board where Greens and Democrats were working together on the issues that drive elections since the DLC's idea of trying to hold voters hostage has already been proven not to work.

[littlejoe]

117. Good lord, Kephra, I haven't seen a rally around one of

the boys like this since Iran-Contra. I do not share your Nader feelings, but hey, I'm sure if you are as stand up as all of your defenders write, you will snap out of this.

[youngred]

88. Jeez, haven't heard these arguments in a long time

Read the rules of the board again, this isn't a Democrats only board. It's devoted to removing Bush et al. from power, but not to the exclusion of Progressives, especially when many of them are still Dems

[Forkboy]

213. damn commies!

[Old and In the Way]

59. Hang in there DMM!

There are way, way more of us who share your sentiments.

Maybe it's the emotional attachment of people to their preferred candidate that creates these kinds reactions when their choice is rejected; hopefully, with time, they'll become more objective about the political reality we live under.

[Snivi Yllom]

20. you were kicked in the balls too many times

When your leaders keep kicking you in the balls, you get sick of it after a while and want them gone.

[no name no slogan]

30. LOL!

"Thank you sir, may I have another!"

I guess us progressive sorts must have brass cojones to keep putting up with it for so long, huh?
:D

It's just that damn lightning side effect that gets me each time...

[JVS]

49. No, the fact that it is tolerated is the greatest display of cowardice...

in politics. Say what you wish about Rabid Right-wingers, but they will not allow themselves to be ignored.

[youngred]

89. what do you suggest then

eh?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

23. At least this will expose Nader as the self-serving fraud he really is.

Every cloud has a silver lining, as they say.

[Book Lover]

24. Why?

Is it from a general sense of, "You go, guy!" or what?

[hlthe2b]

25. Won't you at least tell us WHY?

no flames here... but, ya sorta can't throw that out there without discussing, can you?

[Khephra]

26. OK

I'd never vote for Nader, mever, never, never,never.

But some canidate has to state what I feel

ABB...always...

[hlthe2b]

34. Do you think that he really will (state what you feel?)

I'm not so sure Nader is as close to the more progressive views of Kucinich (or the views of Dean, for that matter) to really "give voice" to the alternate viewpoints not being expressed by the party.... Especially when Nader focuses all his criticism on DEM views at the expense of the more extremist administration views....

[littlejoe]

121. Phewww....Had me going

[CWebster]

29. Khephra just wanted to test

whether he could get away with all the question marks.

That's all.

[maddezmom]

33. LOL

:)

[NewYorkerfromMass]

32. Dean happened to you.

You have a bad case of Dean. It will wear off.

[Slice]

38. lol

nt

[eric_schafer]

115. luckily

it seems to have inoculated us against the Kerry and Edwards bugs.

for the time being.

[Cheswick2.0]

211. Kerry happened to you

It's going to be a little harder to get over after he loses in Nov.

[Guava Jelly]

35. Scorched Earth

All or Nothing at all.
If i cant have you no one can.
Vote for Nader and go about your life.
Dean Asked his people not to go third party.
Every other candidate doesnt support going third party.
Honestly I admire Nader But I also Hate him for Helping Republicans win by dividing the vote
Fix the party dont abandon it

[morgan2]

54. fix the party?

everyone here assumes that if someone isn't a republican, then they must be a Dem. No one is outside the party, they're just stepping out to prove a point. I have never considered myself part of the Democratic party nor do I ever plan on it. There may be some rougue elements in the party who I agree with on a few things, but the party itself will never change unless it is forced upon them. Parties are inherently averse to change because it is dangerous. There is a chance that if the party changes a position here or there they will lose their power. I'm sorry but as a whole the democratic party does not represent me, and if they don't put up a candidate that I at least respect I will not vote for him.

[Old and In the Way]

67. Have it your way!

Man, I cannot wait until we have "mass customization" of our Parties! You want pickles, no ketchup? Sure! I'll have mine with mustard and relish!

The day when we can each have our own Party, custom tailored to fit precisely the way each of us think....I'm sure it's just around the corner.

Sadly, until that day, you get 2 choices....1 from column A or 1 from column B. You can choose 1 from column C, but that won't be served. No takeout, either.

[CivilRightsNow]

116. Oh.. come on...

Nobody wants a carbon copy of them in office.

People just want someone that atleast fits with a couple of their beliefs.

You people act like we are kids throwing a tantrum because we didnt get the strawberry lollipop.

No, the DLC is attempting to hand us a turd on a stick.

You can go ahead and eat it. But Ill pass.

[Old and In the Way]

130. So everything Kerry and Edwards have stood for, you cannot

find any any common ground? I find that impossble to believe.

Actually, after your "turd on a stick" disgusting attack on the nominees, I'm not surprised you can't find common ground. You'd probably be happier supporting George Bush.

[CivilRightsNow]

140. I do not stand for unjust wars...

I will never stand for unjust wars and I will never support people that do.

I'd be happier supporting George Bush, eh? Wanna call me a republican too? Not that I give a damn.. but it's always so humourous.

Your nick is absolutely perfect.

:roll eyes:

[Old and In the Way]

147. Neither did Kerry.

You want to be an apologist for Bush's actions, go for it.

[CivilRightsNow]

188. Oh really..

So Kerry did not vote yes to go to war with Iraq?

You best alert the senate.. cause they evidently recorded his vote incorrectly.

I dont care what he said about international support yadda yadda yadda.. he voted in favor of invading iraq. I also have questions about his role in October Surprise.. as well as his corporate ties. Im not completely done with that research. However, I will not vote a war enabling corporate whore to the presidency.

Currently, Im wavering on Edwards. He also supported the war. Which I would be SERIOUSLY comprimising my beliefs and morals if I voted for him..I dont know if that is something I can live with yet.

Dont sit there and blatently lie about Kerry's vote support of this war. Talk is cheap and he sure didnt stand up where it really mattered.

The only one that did is Dennis. He has my primary vote.. and Nader may have my presidential vote.. Ill be doing a great deal more research into both Kerry and Edwards first.

[hippiegranny]

81. if you're so anti-democratic party

what on earth brought you to the democratic underground? just seems odd.

[CivilRightsNow]

187. If you are so anti humanity, what brought you to earth?

Im not anti democratic party. Try again.

Im anti electing people that I feel would be even bigger mistakes then gwb.

How's that work for you?

Wanna put some more words in my mouth?

[Capn Sunshine]

221. A view of the pool area, Boston, 9/04 after the Keynote speech

[Fargin Ice Hole]

40. Anyone that is fooled into thinking........

the world is going to turn into some sort of a paradise after Kerry is elected is about to be duped...Again!!!!

Incoming message.....From......."The Giant head"....."Attention Kerry suporters..........Kerry is not your messiah.......and.... Haaachoooo

I'm with you...Fuq it bring it on Ralph, You don't have any chance of wining but i'm sure you'l make a few good points and keep the other candidates in check along the way.

[Joe the Revelator]

48. I'm not looking for a Messiah...

i'm looking for someone to begin the long task of preparing the country for one.

[emulatorloo]

70. I don't want a Messiah, but I sure don't want that HORRID MAN in the

White House for four more years. Nadir will not be elected. If GWB is elected or re-selected, I can guarantee you we are in for hell, Progressives especially. GWB will not listen to the goal of progressives. Ain't ever gonna happen. W the dem nominee at least there will be a chance. . . .

[Adelante]

41. Gee

I thought I heard Howard Dean say he is supporting the party and the nominee. I had hoped his loyal cohort heard that, too. Listen, take a little time to breathe and get over the pain of it all. It's hard to think clearly when everything hurts.

ABB, BABY!!

[Dhalgren]

42. I would encourage Nader to run.

The Democratic Party has shown very clearly that it believes it cannot win by going "left". So what difference does it make if someone goes out there and runs to the left? By party logic they wouldn't get any votes, anyway - right? "We don't need no stinkin' leftists" - new Democratic motto. If you don't need the Left, why do you care who gets it?

[polmaven]

60. That doesn't even make sense.

If you think, in the current atmosphere, that any candidate who is far left can win, you need to re-think. The president will be the man who can win the votes of the moderates as well as the progressives.

What you are apparently advocating is that we just hand the moderate voters to the Republicans because some progressives refuse to consider the art of compromise. The ability to compromise is what makes good leaders. Who of us ever gets everything we want, all the time, exactly when we want it? I'm not sure I even WANT to live in that world.

[Dhalgren]

79. Yet you blame the left for voting else where

but not the moderates. If your candidate is too left the moderates will leave, if your candidate is too right, the left will leave. What you gonna' do?

[polmaven]

170. That's why it's called compromise!!!

I never said anyone needed to kow-tow to the moderates. That can't be done any more than moving too far left.

What I said was the word COMPROMISE!!!! If you expect to agree with a candidate 100% of the time, you will be very disappointed in every candidate. You see, it is we who must compromise as well. "OK, I agree with that person on this, this, and this. I don't agree on that and that. Which are the more important issues for me? Do I agree more with this candidate or that one? With which do I DISagree more?

In this country, no candidate for office will win with a narrow segment of the voters, and ignoring another segment.

THAT'S WHY IT'S CALLED COMPROMISE!!!!!!

[Dhalgren]

198. In your opinion, what is the Left asking the Middle

to compromise on? NAFTA and the WTO? Are these big Middle sacred cows? Why? But the left is being asked to compromise on IWR, NCLB, the Patriot Act I & II, not to mention any number of other issues near and dear to Leftist hearts. What is the Middle giving up as a sop to the Left?
Also, there are some issues that cannot be compromised. Everyone has their own list of issues and principles that are off limits to compromise - reproductive rights, separation of church/state, Bill of Rights, honesty in government, hell, lets include slavery, voting rights, equality, one person one vote - there are many things that cannot be compromised, only you know what your list includes.

[MuseRider]

43. Funny

I never heard you say you were voting for Nader. Damn, when the man makes a good point, and he often does, I would assume it would be at least OK to mention it here. Guess not. Vote your heart, or what is left of it.

[Guava Jelly]

47. How about voting your head instead

The heart can be illogical

[MuseRider]

56. I knew someone

would come back with that. Your head can also be illogical. Everyones vote is their vote. He will do whatever feels right to him and it is OK to look around, right? I agree with you but still, who am I to tell him to abandon his looking around. By the way, he did not say he was voting for Nader.

[Dogmudgeon]

45. It's that Masonic conspiracy!

The Secret Masonic Handshake is actually an ancient neural distruptor pattern stolen from Atlantis that makes you completely subservient to Jackie Mason, the Grand Wazoo of the Inside-Outer Lodge of the Left-Hand Path to the Second Floor Bathroom! It puts you in a kind of a trance, baby, and blows your mind, like wow! They get you walking around with a blindfold, with one of your shoes off, and your left man-grape smeared with toothpaste, and activate the long-dormant Fourth Eye, which they then use to hypnotize you into complete and total submission to Baphozilla! While you're in this state, they force you to have sex with seven teenage cheerleaders who are carefully chosen to make sure they have "outies", and they photograph the whole thing with psionic infrared film, and use it to blackmail you! They also make you shave your dog's butt and glue fake cat whiskers onto it, so that an evil spirit with the power to start automobiles at a distance posesses it! Then, they plant evidence that you were the gunman on the grassy knoll so you won't reveal the high arcane secrets to anyone, even if they threaten you with eight teenage cheerleaders with "innies" and large doses of drugs from bad men and force you to eat a large amount of beans and Vitamin C and sign you up with Publisher's Cleaninghouse under six hundred and sixty-six fake names. And then they put the Seal of Salmon (Ex Lox et Baglesia) on you with the High Exalted Whango-Tango, and force you to recite the Secret Blasphemic Dirty Limericks of Nat-As backwards, and you're theirs for life!

(Oh, I forgot the part about John Dilinger's man-organs and the secret real Hermetic meaning of the lights on the Eiffel Tower and the secret nanotechnological eye of Ötzi the Iceman, but I can fill in those parts later.)

It's all true, I tell you, every word! I read all about it at www.rense.com -- so it's GOT to be true!

--bkl
And then, the drugs wore off, and BKL found himself safe in the loving arms of Dr. Theophania Evildeath, his psychiatrist, his tormentor, and his lover. But not in that order.

[WilliamPitt]

46. You mean besides your disappointment that your candidate is gone?

I have to say: All the time I've known you, you're the last person I ever expected to take the "My candidate or fuck everything" position on these matters.

I got this email yesterday:

---

I am one of the Bush "victims", a veteran working now in the housing field, who up untill the current administration could make a "decent" living, and afford medication for my disabled,terminally ill wife. Now we are on the brink of losing our home, struggle to meet the bills, and constantly worry. This is all just a preamble to tell you I totally agree with your Thursday Feb. 19 piece in Truthout; but you should have added one more line to the article. " Now you must be the hero, do what is nessessary, get out and vote. Only you can restore America to it's former high standards."

---

You can try to tell me there is no difference between the candidates. Don't try to tell this guy. He'll laugh at you, or maybe slap you, and then go back to trying to take care of his sick wife.

[Guava Jelly]

50. Truer words have not been Spoken

Thanks Williampitt

[NewYorkerfromMass]

51. I actually enjoyed that post more when it was its own thread

before it got locked.

[WilliamPitt]

52. Me too

[atre]

62. Odd

Isn't it a bit odd that this person has enough money to buy a computer and internet access and enough time to browse the internet and find your site if he really is squeezing every last dime to pay the bills?

It is sad that this medium is generally unavailable to the poor because we netizens tend to be deprived of their perspectives, but this fact does make me very skeptical of anyone who claims to be living such a tragic existence.

Just to clarify: I don't doubt that you got the email, Will, but I question whether the sender didn't embellish the details.

[WilliamPitt]

64. I'm not in a position to question this person

Could it be that he sent this from work? Or a friend's house? Or from a library?

[Guava Jelly]

68. What you require Blood?

Maybe the man emailed him from a library.
not everyone has a cable connection and a 3 gig system.
You can still surf the web quite ok slow as it is with a dial up and a 33.6 modem.

[maxanne]

194. how many more times

can you post this, Will?

It's beginning to be reminiscent of the emotional manipulation used by the ruling party on the subject of 9/11.

[WilliamPitt]

217. You clearly didn't get the 'Deleted Message' message yet

If you follow me from thread to thread posting your attacks against me, I will hit alert on them until you are banned from this forum. Take the call from the Clue Phone.

[Scott Lee]

218. Goodness, how third grade, Mr. Pitt!

When do the "neener neener" songs come into play?

[WilliamPitt]

220. As soon as you fail to get the same message

That was fast with the response. Methinks some folk be watching. :)

[Tactical Progressive]

53. Nader won't hurt Democrats this time around

He might even help.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

55. Keph I love you dearly but what happened to everyone?

While Nader raises some good issues, what the hell ever happened to the COMMON GOOD?

What happened in OO? People voted for the guy that would give them the biggest tax cut.

People voted for the guy that told them it was THEIR MONEY and then took THEIR MONEY and gave it to his oil buddies.

People voted for the GUY that was "just like them" as opposed to the stuft shirt that wanted to talk POLICY as it related to EVERYONE???

This primary was about the guy that claimed YOU WERE HIS SPECIAL INTEREST.

WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO US?

I don't know if Nader will represent any form of spoiler. I do know that a map of the swing states here indicates that liberals/left of centers shoot themselves in the foot by DILUTING the power of their very obvious numbers.

WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO US???

Are we SO DYING to hear some rage, anger and vindication that we would forget about the collective good to the colllective US by NOT diluting our COLLECTIVE vote?

[BootinUp]

57. You'll get over this.

How do I know? Because about 15 minutes ago I almost posted something exactly the same as you did. I snapped out of it at the last minute. My problem is I am not as cynical as Will Pitt. I guess you and I have something in common. And I know since you supported Howard Dean, that your head and heart are in the right place, and so I have no worries that you will get over this.

on edit: This is not a slight on our Mr. Pitt, just acknowledging he is a bit more of a hardened professional than I am.

[WilliamPitt]

63. That's OK

I am cynical. No offense taken.

[hippiechick]

61. this is what happened ...

What I've been saying to you for the past 3 years, Bro.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=369477

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=15036
<snip>
"..."There was a reason why so many young people flocked to Dean. He offered an alternative to the tepid, clapped-out, Republican-lite offerings of Democratic Leadership Council-approved candidates like John Kerry and Joe Lieberman. And Dean's campaign organization wasn't afraid to be a bottom-up movement that gave his supporters more of a role in running things than any previous campaign.

But none of that would have happened without Dean's message of hope. His campaign wasn't about "rage," as the press kept saying. It was about empowerment. Unfortunately, the Democratic establishment is not interested in empowering voters and did everything it could to make sure Dean failed."

<end snip>

Dean is living proof. The system is owned by huge interests who really don't give a rats-ass about the common folk. We don't count so they throw us crumbs and call it 'free will'.

Welcome to the Revolution, Bro ! :pals:

:hippie:

[Guava Jelly]

65. Suicide bombing your own party

dropping vote bombs
We need to take back the house and senate.
every seat on all levels is important if we are to stop the NeoConazis
Third partys elect republicans period

[hippiechick]

72. sorry to disagree

"Third partys elect republicans period" - false.

...if i can find the mathematical proof to dispute your claim before i leave work, i will post it.

Last I knew this was still a 'free' country and we could vote for whomever we choose. That is exactly what I intend to do, with a clear conscience. If the Dems won't offer me a candidate who stands for what I stand for, then they don't get my vote. Check my sig line.


:hippie:

[Guava Jelly]

73. Of course you can vote how you wish this is America

I just believe voting third party and electing republicans is retarded.
but go ahead And help Dubya.
"The needs of the Many outwieght the needs of the few or the One"..Spock ..Star Trek The Wrath of Kahn

[hippiechick]

82. here is the mathmatical proof

many thanks to another DU'er whose name I can't recall ....

Assertion: "Not voting for Kerry (or the nominee) is voting for Bush."
Disproof: Let D represent the number of votes for Kerry, R represent the number of votes for Bush, Q represent votes for 3rd party candidates, and N represent no-votes.

Let us look at four hypothetical scenarios:
1) Voter X votes for Kerry (or the nominee)
Kerry: D'=D+1
Bush: R'=R+0
3rd party: Q'=Q+0
no vote: N'=N+0

2) Voter X votes for Bush
Kerry: D'=D+0
Bush: R'=R+1
3rd party: Q'=Q+0
no vote: N'=N+0

3) Voter X votes 3rd-party
Kerry: D'=D+0
Bush: R'=R+0
3rd party: Q'=Q+1
no vote: N'=N+0

4) Voter X doesn't vote
Kerry: D'=D+0
Bush: R'=R+0
3rd party: Q'=Q+0
no vote: N'=N+1

Compare D and R votes from situations 1 and 2; the difference is TWO votes.
D'(1) - R'(1) = (D - R) + 1 D'(2) - R'(2) = (D - R) - 1 ((D - R) + 1) - ((D - R) - 1) = 2

That, as you can see, is the effect of a Democratic voter switching to vote for Bush.

Now, by contrast, let's calculate the difference from the other two scenarios.
D'(3) - R'(3) = (D - R) D'(4) - R'(4) = (D - R) ((D - R) + 1) - (D - R) = 1

In situations 3 and 4, the difference is ONE vote. Ergo, the net effect of voting 3rd party is identical to that of not voting at all, and neither situation is equivalent to voting for Bush.

Therefore, Not voting for Kerry is NOT EQUIVALENT to voting for Bush. QED.

Practically speaking, a candidate has to earn the votes of his or her constituents. We may vote for candidates because of their stance on issues or to prevent another candidate from winning, but it may happen that a candidate may not inspire us to vote for him on his own merits, the opponent is seen as insufficiently repulsive to merit a resistance vote. This is not the same as voting for the opponent; rather, it expresses a lack of support for both candidates.

[Guava Jelly]

85. So the best you can do is a hypothetical

Enjoy 4 more years of bush....... Honey

[hippiechick]

91. insert any number you'd like ... HONEY

and the formula computes.

i didn't make it up ... HONEY ... it's called mathematical logic.
:eyes:

BTW, Welcome to Hippie's IGNORE list.



:hippie:

[MoonAndSun]

69. Khephra, the question is not what happened to you,

the question is "what happened to my party?"

Keep the good fight going!:yourock:

[K8-EEE]

71. Do What You Want. I Have Faith That Most People Will Be ABB.

Personally I think anybody who doesn't see the advantages of Kerry, Edwards or WHOEVER instead of Bush is just not looking.

But I'm a little tired of all the 3rd party drama threads here -- soon the nominee will be decided and at that point, respectfully, I hope those people go away and let us be Democrats. Even Dean is supporting the nom for Christ's sake.

[West Coast Democrat]

74. Great I just hope you don't end up in court in front of this guy.........

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=5&u=/ap/20040220/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush_judges

[bigtree]

75. A new candidate

who skirts our primary process, and will not be subjected to any meaningful vetting process, should be given even more scrutiny than we have given those who have taken the time to run our gauntlet.

The primary process is a meaningful forum for the assertion of our views and the articulation of each candidate's policies and ambitions. It is foremost, a vetting for the general election. With the stakes so high - another Bush term would be catostrophic in the biblical sense - what good would come of splintering our party? A divided Democratic party would almost certainly enable Bush.

Given that most of Nader's support would come out of our base, how would he be able to effect the change that he advocates?

Given the fact that the far left has never won a national campaign, in the end I fear there will be little distinction between such an advocacy campaign and a spoiler.

[Claire Beth]

76. you must be pleased with Bush!

Otherwise, you wouldn't be thrilled about it.

[diamondsoul]

102. Bush has nothing to do with it.

Some of us are tired of being told to "suck it up" as we watch our Party bled to death slowly.

[Claire Beth]

124. you see what has happened and

the past 4 years are NOTHING compared to what the NEXT four years are going to be if Bush and his radical right wing, neo-con idiots are there again. It's either THEM or the democratic nominee. If you care anything at all about the future of our country then you should reconsider your position!

[Walt Starr]

78. Maybe the reason it thrills you

is his being in the race means the Democrats at a minimum must at least make a show of addressing some of your concerns?

[Voltaire]

90. There's the ticket

The DLC weenies will be bending over backwards promising us the moon and the stars so we don't go storming over to Nader after the ass-reaming we took from them. They are so craven and stupid that they will just forget that unlike the wingers and their party, the progressives will not sit blindly by and let them crap on us again. I will vote for whomever the Democratic Party nominee is. But they are gonna get real tired of me calling and writing them if they want to keep up this charade of democracy this time.

If you want Nadar Kef....good on ya. If the DLC/DNC is so goddamned omnipotent, there will be no need to worry about US will there?

Voltaire

[youngred]

93. I think Nader is an egotist asshole

but I respect his right to run and can understand why some would be drawn to him, esp given the way Progressives have been treated in the "big tent" party

[VelmaD]

94. Step away from the keyboard Kef

Seriously bro.

If nothing else Nader running as an Indpendent puts lie to the idea that he ran last time as a means of building a viable 3rd party on the left back in 2000.

It isn't about us or about the causes we believe in...it's about Ralph Nader's ego being the size of the Superdome.

[Meldread]

95. You've been abducted by aliens! -nt-

:P

[David Zephyr]

96. You're Mighty Brave, Khephra to Write Those Words.

Glad to see you posting again! :hi:

[littlejoe]

97. Please don't be smitten by an ego in an empty suit. n/t

[hippiechick]

186. You're referring to Kerry, right ? n/t

:hippie:

[absyntheNsugar]

120. You find the security of a police state comforting

Or you like the taste of arsnic in your water

I have it! Perhaps you really do think minorities should 'stay in their place'.

[candy331]

125. Seems that I have read and also said this myself

What has the party been doing since 2000? Surely this is no new revelation that Nader could run again. Why hasn't this been taken into consideration rather than just wishing he would go away. Surely someone could have stepped on the stage and negotiated with the man couldn't they? In retrospect I guess not.

132. Revolution Hoover FDR....

Revolutions should only be attempted under the direst necessity when there is no other way out according to the I Ching.
Do you think this is one of those times? I haven't decided yet. I'm not scared of that direction though. I think that people who are scared of that direction are scared of Nader.
I'm not sure if we should push ourselves that far yet so I am ambivalent regarding Nader.

I wish people would think about these things in a larger picture.

There seems to be a parallel to the times of Hoover. Although Roosevelt is a Democratic icon, the argument has been made that he co-opted the Socialists and the Communists of the time and made things safe for capitalism.

If Nader holds any similar sort of view about these times, I can understand why he would not be at all concerned about throwing the election to Bush.

[Khephra]

137. Please read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=370936

[burned]

183. i found myself saying the same thing..... go for it.

This once invigorated race has become such an homogenized set up bucket of blah. Even if *we* win its just going to be more of the same crap we've endured for decades. Daschle??!!!

There is too much dirt in politics. The whole shebang is a huge pile of shit.

Senator Byrd should be in charge of EVERYTHING before he dies.

It took a major shakeup like the Bush administration to get a couple of good candidates out there, and now maybe it will take some other form of shaking to get the people in the democratic political manufacturing business sent overseas. Or undersea. Or mars. Whatever and wherever, so long as they go away and stop choosing my options for me.
Maybe the Dems deserve to lose for messing around and changing my super duper heavy duty spanking new cleaner with an old, boring, vote sucking 'formula' that works.'

I'm pissed off that I'm forced to vote ABB instead of being given the opportunity to vote for real honest to goodness change.

I'm really pissed off at the dirtiness of it all. I welcome all bringers of change. Give it your best shot.

I'm voting for Dean in my primary, actually I already have by absentee ballot, I'm going shopping out of district that day...or something.

I'll vote for the manufactured shiny clean action figure Dem guy in Nov. Then I'm coming home and throwing up.

Power to the people was a real good line back in the day. :)

[maxanne]

207. khephra

I'm disgusted by the way you've been treated here - and I know that some of the nastiness has come from people you called friends. I am so sorry. Rational discussion is currently not possible, I guess.

I've watched several people I respect get savaged in the last few days for expressing their point of view. I am ashamed for the people who are so venemous and spiteful.

To thine own self be true, Kef. :thumbsup:

[CabalBuster]

182. I will vote Nader before I vote for Kerry, flame me if you want

I just won't vote for someone who is responsible for the war in Iraq and the Patriot Act and No Child. Kerry is just impersonating a liberal democrat his voting record and his background speak volumes to me.

[buddhamama]

189. OH NO, kef

that 'devil' Nadir has taken you to the darkside.

you, like many of us, have reached your limit with the anti-democratic DLC monied poltics, and you long for real change.

[mdmc]

190. this?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=382730#386394

[Iverson]

195. (cough) um, khephra?

Why don't you posit an answer?
Patterns of thoughtfulness and reflection are always welcome.
If I tried to answer for you, it would probably be a matter of projecting my preferences into your gesture.

[revcarol]

199. "Buddy, can you spare a dime?"

Then, contribute it to KUCINICH, the only grass roots person out their STILL RUNNING AN ACTIVE CAMPAIGN.

Grass roots people are always told, "Tomorrow, tomorrow, we'll give you your sop TOMORROW.

Vote against your best interests TODAY. But tomorrow...."


Tomorrow never comes.:mad:

Nader shakes things up. Maybe tomorrow...they will listen....

Contribute to the grass roots today. $5.00 for Kucinich.

[RetroLounge]

200. Wow Kephra

I am not responding to your post.

I am responding to the incredible venom tossed your way by so many on this thread who have no idea who you are or what you believe.

It's sad...

So much fear, so much ignorance.

Hang in there :yourock:

RL

[Forkboy]

214. The best thing about Nader running

is watching the completely reactionary people in the Dem Party totally freak out.This thread is an excellent case in point.

"You must love Bush"
"You really want minorities to stay in their place"
"You must like arsenic in your water"
"I can't wait for the rules to kick in"
"You demand purity" So we hope you get banned!


Jeezus,I couldn't make this stuff up with a case of Jack Daniels and suitcase full of meth.

I'm am honestly amused to no end by these people.

Who says comedy and politics don't mix?

[youngred]

216. the sad thing for all of us is their seriousness

who needs to focus on Bush when you can help the right further scapegaot the left

[PVnRT]

227. The freak out is especially funny

in that the people doing it don't seem to realize that Nader has no party to support, few if any supporters, and has attacked Bush more in the past four days than many of the Democratic nominees have done for the past few months.

Nader will have little or no affect in November, mark my words.

[youngred]

230. indeed

the only thing Nader has going for him is Name recognition, and that won't be much help anymore.

nader is a non-issue that they're making a primary concern

[Ysabel]

231. khephra...

anyone has a right to run - i do not begrudge anyone for running...

i'll not begrudge you either...

i'll continue to support your right to express yourself - as i will always continue to support anyone's right to do so...

what has happened to you...?

you have changed / grown - i suppose...

in my opinion - that's a good thing...