Sincere Questions For Anyone Who's Not ABB

[eeyore]

I've been seeing a lot of talk lately from people saying that they have decided to either vote 3rd party or not vote at all. People are tired, disillusioned, fed up with feckless politicians, and just plain pissed off. Completely understandable.

Some of you have been working tirelessly and thanklessly for a candidate for months, often to the exclusion of work, family, and a social life. You have given of your life to someone you believed could make change for the better, and now you are left feeling abandoned by the process.

No matter the candidate you've supported in the primaries, most people have been working with the same goal in mind - to throw BUSHCO out on their thieving asses and take back America. I can only assume that people whose candidates have dropped out still want our country back as much as they did the day they started supporting that candidate.

So, I'm left with a question for anyone who's planning on either staying home or voting 3rd party. Can you explain to me how that furthers the goal of taking back our country?

I'm not trying to start a flame-bait thread, here. I'm genuinely confused as to how someone can be so passionate about working against the evil bastards one day, then just shut it off the day their candidate drops out. Are they any less evil now than they were when you were devoting your life to removing them from the office they stole?

Just to let you know, I don't support any candidate, and am not a registered member of any party. I've never been a joiner, and have basically resigned myself to the belief that I will never in my lifetime live in an American society that's as liberal as I'd like it to be. I basically vote Dem out of self preservation and for the common good.

You might say that I'm voting for the lesser of two evils, but isn't that just a vote for the common good?

[mhr]

1. Voting For A Party Nominee That Supports The War ....

Supports The Patriot Act, and
Supports The DLC Is Not An Acceptable Option.

Hence a third party candidate.

Those of us that are fed up are fed up not because Bush is so bad; we are fed up because the party which is supposed to represent us is so bad.

[absyntheNsugar]

2. Kerry did not support the war, he supported the resolution

He wanted the inspections to continue, and he regrets that vote

[Guaranteed]

4. No, he doesn't regret that vote. nt

[absyntheNsugar]

5. Prove it - I can prove mine

Kerry said in an interview that trusting Bush was a bit mistake, ergo he regrets his vote. I would repost it but you saw the quote yesterday on a similar thread so I'm not going to research it all over again for you.

Show me where he says he is proud of his IWR vote.

[Guaranteed]

12. I already know about that.

And that's not the same thing.

I've heard (yes, I saw and heard the words come out of his mouth- others will back me up) Kerry say MULTIPLE times that his vote was the "right thing to do," which I suppose he thinks is reconciable with regretting trusting Bush.

[Guaranteed]

21. Look here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=154281

[HFishbine]

14. "he regrets that vote"

I've seen this oft repeated, yet never substantiated. And each time I put forth a hopeful request for some substantiation that this is true. So, once again, where can I read of Kerry's regret for his vote?

[Guaranteed]

17. It's plain wrong. He says his vote was the right thing to do

all the time.

[polpilot]

38. ALL THE TIME. Kerry continues to support bombing all day every day!!

Bombs away!!

[RafterMan]

24. Seems to regret it

"This was the hardest vote I have ever had to cast in my entire career," Kerry said. "I voted for the resolution to get the inspectors in there, period. Remember, for seven and a half years we were destroying weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. In fact, we found more stuff there than we thought we would. After that came those four years when there was no intelligence available about what was happening over there. I believed we needed to get the weapons inspectors back in. I believed Bush needed this resolution in order to get the U.N. to put the inspectors back in there. The only way to get the inspectors back in was to present Bush with the ability to threaten force legitimately. That's what I voted for."

"The way Powell, Eagleberger, Scowcroft, and the others were talking at the time," continued Kerry, "I felt confident that Bush would work with the international community. I took the President at his word. We were told that any course would lead through the United Nations, and that war would be an absolute last resort. Many people I am close with, both Democrats and Republicans, who are also close to Bush told me unequivocally that no decisions had been made about the course of action. Bush hadn't yet been hijacked by Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney and that whole crew. Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You're God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake."

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/clips/news_2003_1210b.html

[Guaranteed]

3. That's right...the Democratic party has to take responsibility

for the role that IT played in the horrible goings-on of the past few years. They played along with Bush's agenda. We're NOT better off having them around, because they don't stand up for us! So why should I vote ABB?

[absyntheNsugar]

6. Um, because you like democracy

because 4 more years of Bush = no more democracy.

If you don't vote GROB, then might as well go join the Republican Party because that is what you are voting for.

[Guaranteed]

13. You call THIS democracy???

Listen to yourself.

[absyntheNsugar]

29. Yes I do

I've lived under a police state and know what it's like.

I've spent time in truly despotic, fascist states.

Beleive me, as bad as it is, we are nowhere near a real police state.

Try:

- Random searches at any time, any place. This includes your home, your car, your workplace. This is done at the end of a machine gun.

- Identification papers on you at all times. During these searches, if the papers don't add up, they bring you in.

- People dissapear, and the news doesn't report it, and people are afraid to talk about it. Suddenly, Joe Blow down the street is gone and his wife refuses to say why, but she's moving back in with her parents, or out of the area.

- Dissent is met with jail time, not just criticism. To publicly dissent is to end up in jail, or to dissapear.

We are moving in that direction under Bush. A Kerry or Edwards presidency will take us in a different path. It may not be the progressive paradise you seek, but it will not be the fascist regime Bush has openly talked about and his cabal has investigated (read up on Rex 84, one of Ollie North's pet projects.)

The balls are in motion - don't make the same mistake the Germans did in the 1920's.

[hippiegranny]

8. you should do whatever it is you have to do

i'll just know that when my kids get sent to die in yet another bushco oil war, you can feel warm and fuzzy about your vote of conscience. how great for you.

[Guaranteed]

15. Why don't you hold those Democrats who voted for that war

you hate so much responsible for their votes?

You say that, and then you're gonna run out and vote for Kerry or Edwards.

[HFishbine]

16. And how sickened will we feel

when the next war is launched by a dem who thought that this one was right too?

[CivilRightsNow]

35. And we will.. and maybe we can save the rest of you

hippiegranny who alluded that anyone who voted an alternative would be responsible for the possible deaths of their grandchildren in an unjust war. Well you know what? The ball got dropped after watergate Granny. The people decided to sit on their asses and let it come to this. Your grandchildren? My whole generation is getting screwed. My peers, my brothers, my sisters.. myself. So you know what? I'll go ahead and vote my conscience instead of assimilating. So when the coffins roll in, atleast Ill know I did something to try and stop it.. instead of just putting a new leaders face on the logo.

[eeyore]

11. what does being anti ABB get you in the end?

and does it further the cause of wanting your country back? i understand your feelings - i don't like the options myself, but i'm more afraid of consequences of another 4 years of BUSHCO. i live in oregon, which narrowly escaped going to * in 2000 because of the nader split. that's not an acceptable situation this time around.

[HFishbine]

18. Right or wrong

it comes down to delayed gratification. This is not necessarily my belief, but there is some validity to the notion that 4 more years of BUSHCO may finally get us a democratic party that listens to the left.

[eeyore]

22. either that...

either that or they could get an even stronger stranglehold, weakening the dems even further. i guess i'm not willing to take the chance.

[CivilRightsNow]

31. Human nature..

We havent hit rock bottom yet.

People are still way too comfortable.

Let them stew in the world they have created.

Hopefully, that will wake them up.

[eeyore]

34. really?

Do you think the thousands of people who''ve lost loved ones in an unjust war are comfortable? Are the prisoners in Guantanamo comfy? How about all of the people who can't find work in this "recovering" economy? I live in a state with over 7% unemployment. It's not all that comfy here. I'm not really into the idea of making the world a more miserable place than it already is just to make a statement on principal.

[CivilRightsNow]

36. I guess in your twist of the reality in my words.

Do you think the thousands of people who''ve lost loved ones in an unjust war are comfortable?

How do you know Im not one of those people? They may not be happy, but comfortable? Yes, most americans are comfortable. Have you looked around?

Are the prisoners in Guantanamo comfy?

Im doubtful of that, but they arent the majority of the population, are they? They arent who Im referring to. They are not Joe Q American.

How about all of the people who can't find work in this "recovering" economy?
I was out of work for almost 2 years. I know many many people that are out of work and have been for quite some time. Are they comfortable? Yeah, they are a hell of alot more comfortable that the iraqi orphans who got "liberated" from their orphanage and are now living on the streets of baghdad drinking diseased water out of roadside puddles. They are alot more comfortable then my brothers and sisters living in the Gaza Strip.

They live on credit. They have roofs over their head. They have food in their mouths. They have all their limbs. They arent dying of cancer from depleted uranium. They have fox news.

We americans are like chicken little.. the sky is falling, the sky is falling... The sky hasnt even begun to fall yet.

I live in a state with over 7% unemployment.
And your point? If that isnt comfortable for them... If that isnt what they feel they deserve.. why arent the MILLIONS being effected by unemployment marching every day? Why arent they rioting? Why arent they camped out on the steps to your capitol building? If they are so uncomfortable, then why arent most of them doing anything except maxxing out the credit cards and trying to get back into the rat race?

I'm not really into the idea of making the world a more miserable place than it already is just to make a statement on principal.
Yeah, Im not into making the world a miserable place either. Im into ending the cycle of bullshit that has led to the depraved thinking that we are somehow entitled as americans to all the creature comforts while others around the world starve and die because of our mistakes. Our globalization. Our pollution. Our corporatization of entire countries. Our backroom deals. Our walmart blue light specials. Im not all about letting the rest of the world "eat cake" when they dont even have clean water, while my representatives accept large campaign contributions from dupont, halliburton, rj reynolds, etc. Im about helping this country achieve the dream that it was founded upon. Im about our elected officials representing the people. Im about a government OF, FOR and BY the people.

Now if the rest of you would like to let all that fall by the wayside for your idea of comfort, so be it. You will reap what you sow.

[hippiegranny]

33. yeah, just like 8 years of reagan did?

that was the common wisdom back then, i do believe.

[eeyore]

7. okay

but how does that further your goal of getting the country back?

[Democat]

23. Supporting Bush because the Democratic candidate is not perfect?

You are deciding to punish the entire country and future generations of Americans because the candidate doesn't live up to every one of your expectations.

If you really care about the future of America and the world, you would be more worried about getting rid of Bush than getting your way.

[Guaranteed]

27. We are fighting against the exact same thing

that you say you're fighting against- what Bush has done to our country. The difference is that we are recognizing that the Democratic Party had a hand in it- they did not represent us when they should have. This did NOT have to happen, and they need to take responsibility for it.

[Claire Beth]

9. You're thinking is correct

Vote democratic! The democrats are the lesser of the two evils. There won't be a viable 3rd party in our lifetime. If so, it won't start *AT* the presidential level. A 3rd party vote is the same as a vote FOR Bush. There is way too much at stake in the next election to allow the current administration to have 4 more years.

[HFishbine]

10. Maybe this analogy will help

A few years ago, you were driving a nice hybrid Prius. A five speed with air, Bose stero, seatbelts, driver and passenger airbags, a beutiful metalic red, fog lamps and sun roof.

Some crook comes along and steels it and leaves a bicycle with a flat tire in its place. Four years later, there's a knock at your door. It's the police. They've still haven't found your car, but there's another Prius up for sale at the police auction that they think you can get cheap. There is no stereo, the airbags don't work, the transmission won't go into high gear, it needs a paint job, there is no sun roof and no fog lamps. The only catch, if you buy it, the police will close the case on your missing car. Do you stick with the bicycle and hold the police on the hook for finding your car, or do you buy the other car and consider it good enough.

Not a perfect analogy, I know. But it captures the essence of the choice for some voters.

[eeyore]

19. well...

i guess i don't feel like i've ever had the nice prius, more like a sensible corolla with a stock radio. it doesn't get the best mileage, doesn't go very fast, but it's better than pushing that bike that i can't even ride around everywhere i go. i'm realistic enough to believe that getting that prius is probably a pipe dream, and that at least i can get where i need to go in the corolla.

[HFishbine]

28. Well

That's about the most sensible response I've heard. It opens one's eyes to the notion that all we are really talking about is returning to the democrratic status quo of the 90's. I think some of us held out hope that the reactionary Bush administration would create some equal and opposite reaction. To some of us Buscho so clearly illustrated the virtues of progressive liberalism, that we never imagined that the reaction would not be equal and opposite but rather tentative and divergent.

You make it clear that what people really want is a return to the comfortable and familiar. That's a valid opinion to have, and one that the majority of dem voters (to this point anyway) seem to hold.

[edzontar]

20. ABB is a matter of personal choice.

Candidates have to EARN votes, That is their job.

If your guys are so "electable," that should not even be a problem.

[eeyore]

25. i agree completely

i'm just asking how voting 3rd party or staying home will help the country in the end? and btw i don't have a guy that i'm for, just a whole mess of them in power that i'm against. i honestly don't think i will ever find a politician that i'm for. i think that they are all full of shit to varying degrees - repub, dem, commie, green, whatever. i don't look for perfect heroes in politicians - or anyone for that matter.

[CivilRightsNow]

26. Personally,

I think that by voting ABB we continue to sell out the idea of a multiple party system. By contining to compromise instead of revolting we are directly responsible for the things that we bemoan. Corporatization of my government is not appealing to me. It has proceeded long enough and I will not sit complacently by, refusing to vote my heart because of some manufactured notion that a.)anyone is better then Bush and b.)by voting my conscience, Im somehow failing my country.

I dont believe that.

I will not let the world decieve me into thinking that some collective conscience is better then the one in my head and my chest.. I will not let it beat me into submission, like so many of the people I see around me have been. Ive always been told that when I grow older Ill understand...my passion will gave way to "logic". Screw that. Logic is muddled when someone honestly believes that ANYONE would be better then Bush. In fact, I know quite a few people who would be much much worse then Bush. Thankfully, most of them have dropped out of the running at this point.

I will not follow everyone blindly off a cliff. I dont care if Im the only one standing alone. I will not continue to enable this shift to the right. I will demand that my representatives actually represent me. If they dont, I wont vote for them. It is that simple.

[eeyore]

32. thank you

I appreciate you addressing my question. So many people have a serious knee jerk vitriol about this. I absolutely respect your tenacity, and I think that we would be much better off with more parties to choose from.

Realistically, though, the only way that we can get more parties into the system is through the tactic that Nader was attempting in 2000 - by getting whatever percentage needed to get the Greens eligible for matching funds. That's most likely not going to happen this year.

So if you live in a swing state like I do (Oregon), you're faced with a choice between voting out of fear or out of conscience. For me, I'll stick with the pragmatic approach, and try to affect change at the local level. I honestly don't think I'll ever see a presidential candidate who will represent me - there just aren't enough liberal people in this country for us to be represented nationally. Kucinich is close to what I might want, but he will never win in a million years.

[CivilRightsNow]

37. :)

"Realistically, though, the only way that we can get more parties into the system is through the tactic that Nader was attempting in 2000 - by getting whatever percentage needed to get the Greens eligible for matching funds. That's most likely not going to happen this year."

See, I think that goal is more realistic this year. This is the time...If anything, the 2000 election proved that we need another party and we need it badly. The dems lost their spine and they threw away my voice. I was more ABB that election.

Now, I see that when it all boils down to it everything is so muddy and grey that I cant try to make my vote based upon anything except what is in my heart. I gave my heart and my hopes and my dreams to Al Gore in 2000 because I didnt want another Bush.. (especially that one. I lived in Texas and watched what he did there)....and he didnt even have the courage to get up off his ass and fight for me and the millions of others that put our faith in him.

[waldenx]

30. I give my vote

to a candidate that earns it, not because the HERD tells me I owe it.
I don't understand how so many people can have such extremely low standards and enjoy being stabbed in the back.