Nader, the Lying Liar, NeedsTo RUN. He Must Be Run Out Of Town

[Raya]

Ralf Nader is a sad example of that so dirty story about our country: -- A lot of us well-fed intellectuals will use whatever devices to deny responsibility for what this country does while refusing to make the hard unselfish choices that could help change things. All the while there is war and death all around the world perpetrated for our benefit.

As far I am concerned, Nader is more responsible than most for all the atrocities of George Bush. For his supporters it was just ignorance, but for Nader it was pure unadulterated ego to pretend that by drawing voters to his side he was helping the country.

Whether intended or not, Nader's attacks on Gore made him smaller, when the essence in winning the political conflict in America is to make your leader larger than life. And Nader and his educated cadre of supporters know very well that Gore was not the same as Bush. It was a lie, just as it is a lie today, to equate the Democratic candidate with the Republican. It is a lie that has cost tens of thousand of lives and the livelihood of millions.

We are all part of this country and we all bear some responsibility for what our government does. There is blood on American hands even if we want to close our eyes and pretend. And there is more blood on Nader’s hands than he wants to admit.

Now if Nader decides not to support the Party nominee after a primary with perhaps the most progressive field of candidates in the last 100 years, then he is not just lying to us, he is lying to himself. He is pretending that Dennis Kucinich is not in the primaries, he is pretending that there has not been a dozen major televised debates with the progressive voice getting a good hearing. He is pretending that John Kerry, who now appears the likely nominee, does not have such a crazily liberal record (ADA 93% LCV 96%) that he might be too liberal be elected.

If Nader decides to run for President against John Kerry, he had better

run.

It will be time for responsible Democrats to run that lying liar out of the country for good.

[kalian]

1. Are you threatening Nader?

:shrug: That's a no-no...

[Raya]

5. No. I am saying he is theatening the lifes of all those who will die

if the neocons stay in power.

[kalian]

8. My question to you is....

do you actually believe (think) that just because Kerry becomes
prez that things will change overnight? DO you think that our troops
will be brought back from Iraq? Do you think that the invasions
won't continue?
What guarantees do we have...? :shrug:

This whole thing about both parties attacking a viable THIRD
party candidate is wrong. I think that America needs to evolve out
of this "two-party" system. It way too close to having a single
party dictatorship.

[Raya]

25. What do you think Bush will do in next 4 years. That is the choice. WakeUP

[kalian]

29. I HAVE been "awake" since 9/11....

the whole thing is a sham. What gets me though is that many people
believe that if a dem gets selected then things will go "back to
normal". Not true. Besides, just look at Kerry's voting record during
these past three years. He supported shrub in everything the idiot
did.
Why wasn't Kerry OPPOSING things? Why wasn't he highly critical of
shrub's invasion of Iraq? Why? :shrug:
For that matter...why were most of the dems "in line" with the
reich-wingers? What are they AFRAID off?
Why aren't they driving a stake through shrub's foreign policy
monster? Why aren't they holding high profile (and PUBLIC) hearings
into all these "failed intelligence goofs"?

Why don't YOU wake up?

[Frank_Person]

2. Here! Here!

[Iverson]

3. re: Jesse Helms

You'll recall that in Clinton's first term, Helms made some ominous comment about how he couldn't guarantee Clinton's safety should he come to North Carolina.

Of course, your original message is totally different. Totally.

[muchacho]

4. Wow

I think you're better suited for the GOP than the progressives.

Zealot

[Raya]

11. Every time Iraqi's or Afghans die some of their blood is on Nader's hands

and on mine too, and yours. As long a we are beneficiaries of the
system.

I'm am tired of the bloodshed.

[charlie]

21. Uh-uh. No.

And a retreat into a pious cloud won't cover your call for "responsible" Democrats to run a man out of the country. It's up there.

Three times.

In bold.

[The Magistrate]

40. Nonsense, Mr. Charlie

The wretch ought damned well to be run out of the country, and why anyone would object to so apt a statement is beyond me.

His announcement ought to be met with such a thunderous shout of disapproval as to lead the creature to question whether he has one friend in all the world, and he ought to have nothing but enemies in every quarter, and see nothing but contempt and disgust whenever he pokes his scabby face beyond his door-step.

He is a damnable and contemptible traitor to the people and the country, a willing and eager accomplice of the worst elements of reaction in our country, and to treat him as anything else is to partake of his design, which is nothing more than to see the triumph at the polls of the criminals of the '00 Coup. He has secured that once, and means to secure it again. Do you propose to help him, Sir?

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[charlie]

69. Help him? No, Mr Magistrate

I've never voted for Nader, never will. But I don't hold him culpable for the 2000 debacle and I won't join your mob howling for a pound of his hide. Low impulses, like physically threatening the man, are unwarranted and vile (and should be reserved for real criminals, like Bushco). In any case, as far as I'm concerned, Nader is a symptom, not the disease.

To be clear, I think 20+ years of the party's timorousness, validating the worst of Republican rhetoric through capitulation (Liberals!? Eek! We're Democrats, but not THOSE kind of Democrats), chasing the upscale vote while neglecting our rightful lunchbucket constituency (in the tumult of today's economics we're all one-paycheck-away-from-disaster ramen eaters at one time or another), and most importantly, flat-out refusing to recognize the hard fact that Republican ruthlessness cannot be countered without equal ruthlessness is what got us here.

AND... I'll crawl over crushed glass, if need be, to pull the lever for the Dem nominee this November. I clearly recognize that they hold my fate, the fate of the country and the world, in their hands. So no, I won't be helping Nader. But I do find your rage for vengeance misdirected and appalling.

[The Magistrate]

83. If, Mr. Charlie, You Will Vote For The Party's Nominee

Then we have no substantial quarrel, Sir.

Nonetheless, my ire towards Wrecker Nader will not be banked or assuaged. Moderation in all things applies to moderation itself, Sir, and there comes a point where the appropriate response is rage, and the back-stabbing course of this reptile, and the crew that comforts him, reaches that point. The creature must be made to understand he has no friends, and driven back under the rock whence he has scuttled out to do his bit for the triumph of the worst elements of reaction, to whom he has already once given decisive aid. If you do not wish to join in the attack, Sir, at least raise no hand in the pig's defense, and then, again, Sir, we have no quarrel.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[charlie]

88. Of course we don't

I've known that you and I (though you wouldn't, since my presence here is sporadic) have common cause... no, we share commitment to THE CAUSE.

However, I won't cease in my objections to the needless, wasteful, Nader (and Naderite, and Green, and any progressive 3rd party) thrashings, especially when they become calls for something akin to frontier justice. Not when we give wayward Dems who blithely abandon us on the right cute names like "Reagan Democrats" and move heaven and earth to woo them back.

You and I are allies, but we've got some big honking differences. We'll have to agree to disagree until we join in November.

[The Magistrate]

90. That Is Fine With Me, Sir

Complete agreement is not required for alliance, or even for friendship. In this question, it is at bottom only the vote that counts.

A pleasure to cross words with you, Sir!

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[charlie]

91. Very good, Mr Magistrate

The pleasure is mine. If we happen to butt heads in the interim, we'll wash our bruises away with a grand toast on November 3rd.

[HowdyDUit]

103. raise no hand in the pig's defense?

How democratic of you to dictate who can say or do what with regard to a candidate.

[The Magistrate]

108. Well, Dear Marionette

The actual statement indicates what will get you into a quarrel with me....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[HowdyDUit]

102. Who put you in charge of determining who is allowed to run for office?

"Kill one, warn one hundred." What do you mean with that statement?

[The Magistrate]

109. It Is, Dear Marionette

An old jurist's maxim from the early Han, and self-explanatory, it is has always seemed to me....

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tinoire]

24. I hear you. I understand you...

I have the same nightmares over the Afghan and Iraqi children that I was having over the Palestinian & Israeli children 4 years ago.

I think too much of their blood is on Kerry's hands for me to be able to vote for him.

Kerry supports the imperialistic establishment that can't roll on unless it's exploiting someone else. It is true that he is more domestically progressive/liberal than Bush but is that enough?

Sorry Raya. I really hear your pain. So sorry. But now you have to decide what you're going to do with that pain. Give in and say it hurts too much and rubber-stamp Kerry who is part of the system causing you so much pain or stand up and say "Screw this, you either represent me or to hell with you" ? We, the people, won't even start winning until the day we do that. And one other thing... we're running out of time because of the Patriot act (drafted under & blessed by Clinton) and out-right intolerance for anyone who thinks contrary to the establishment.

We are in real trouble.

[Raya]

28. Why Do Repub charge Kerry as "Opposed to All use Of Force" "War Trauma

Victim" etc

And we insist that he is a war-monger.
Is Kerry the same guy that voted against Gulf War 1, that voted against most new military spending, is notorious for opposing beloved advanced military systems (MX, starwars, M1 B1 etc), spend much of his senate time opposing covert military operations and exposing CIA drug connections?

Help me. Are we pretending we can elect someone more a peacenik in America at a time of war?

[The Magistrate]

44. Far More Of that Blood, Ma'am

Drips off the hands of Wrecker Nader. That contemptible reptile is directly responsible for the criminals of the '00 Coup being in office, for without his efforts they would have failed to reach striking distance for their final effort at usurpation, but been soundly rejected instead by the votes of the people, and unable to carry out their seizure of power through the Court. That is a fact, my friend, beyond honest argument from anyone capable of second grade arithmetic.

Responsibility for the invasion of Iraq rests on the criminals of the '00 Coup, and not on any Democratic Party Senator. The invasion would have been carried through regardless of any vote in the Congress. The Executive has the power to do that, as our government currently functions, and you know that to be the fact.

Any attempt to divide the opposition to the worst elements of reaction in the present circumstances is to collaborate with the worst elements of reaction in maintaining themselves in power and continuing to execute their designs against the people and the country and the world. There is no excuse for collaborating with the worst elements of reaction, and the poorest excuse one could possibly proffer for doing so is the claim that one does so as a means of expressing zealous commitment to left principles. That is a disgusting sophistry unworthy of any real radical: let us leave it to faux poseurs and parlor pink dilettantes, Ma'am, for whom political action is a mere lifestyle choice and form of self-expression, adopted to liven up the solopsistic existance they cannot break beyond.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[kiahzero]

86. Perhaps not...

It is true that he is more domestically progressive/liberal than Bush but is that enough?

I don't cede the point that Kerry is significantly culpable for Bush's crimes. However, given your perspective, I would argue that at least working for domestic progressivism will lead to more acceptance of progressive international relations.

Once you get more people comfortable with the progressive viewpoint (once, for instance, people can proudly wear the label "Liberal" throughout the US once more), it'll be far easier to get your way.

You actually seem to recognize this in your last paragraph... "we're running out of time" - buy yourself some more time. Vote Democratic nominee in 2004.

[wildmanj]

6. nadar

nadar slops at the same trough of big business that republicans slop at--and yes some democrats love the taste of the swill also:crazy:

[WitchWay]

67. the trough of big business

Yeah - and Kerry's born from it and married into it.

[Tinoire]

7. Don't challenge the dauphin before the coronation! Bash Nader because

The Supreme Court had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.
The Reagan Democrats who voted for Bush had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

The conservative swing voters the Democrats are always chasing had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

The Arab Americans angry at certain of the Democratic Party's stands had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

The Democrats who voted for Buchanan had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

The over 16,000 votes Diebold disappeared in Florida 2000 had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

Telling Haitians & other immigrants that the election was on the 8th had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

Massive voter purges had nothing to do with it.

Military ballots received after the deadline had nothing to do with it.

Hanging chads had nothing to do with it.

Bus-loads of bussed in Republican operatives had nothing to do with it.

Katherine Harris had nothing to do with it.

People who couldn't even be bothered to vote had nothing to do with it.

Downright "naive' people who voted for Bush and now want the Democratic party to cater to their selfish needs now had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.

===

Naw... all of that had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency.. Let's blame Nader, it takes so much less effort.

==== The Moderate Dems are in such a lovely tizzy. As if they didn't know this was coming... You reap what you sow in life. To think, to just think that so many Progressive Dems went out of their way to support a fiscally conservative, moderate, pro-Israel, not really antiwar Democrat like Dean but that wasn't good enough for the status quo DLC crowd.

And yesterday Senator John Kerry's campaign delivered a not-so-subtle statement: "It is important that we remain united in November and rally behind the Democratic nominee, whoever that may be."

The Kerry campaign's appeal was just one in another frenzy of calls yesterday for Mr. Nader to sit this one out, prompted by the announcement by a Nader aide that he would reveal his intentions Sunday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/21/politics/campaign/21NADE.html?pagewanted=print&position=

[Raya]

9. No coronation. Kerry is already being hammered as too liberal for America

He is being slimed from every direction. The chance of Kerry, or
any democrat, of beating the ruthless RW machine is slim enough
without Mr. Nader's help.

[Iverson]

10. the only permissible response

Kerry had better run to the right, then! All those soccer moms and Nascar dads and independents sure will be energized by that.

Maybe if he promises to send a message to Iran or North Korea ...

[Tinoire]

16. The only people saying Kerry is too liberal for America r Kerry supporters

there is nothing liberal about war and occupation. There's nothing liberal about Kerry's 100% pro-Israel stance where every semi-seemingly-decent statement he makes is immediately clarified in the Israeli press the next day by him or a high aide.

There's nothing liberal about voting for the Patriot act, Yugoslavia, Colombia or NAFTA.

Just what makes Kerry such a liberal? A few votes for abortion and gay rights? Those are wedge crumbs Raya. I am sorry we see things this differently but in no way in my book is Kerry a liberal. He's a seasoned, ruthless, cynical politician who made sure he punched the mandatory tickets as he groomed himself to be the Dem nominee over the years. He's been grooming himself since his Yale days. I don't trust the guy as much as I can throw him anymore.

Kerry used to be my number 2. I can show you posts from 6 mos to 1 year ago where I was still defending him but no more.

If the Democrats want to beat Bush, maybe we should swallow our bile and work WITH Nader. Is that so difficult? What possible moral reasons could we have for refusing to do so? Over 1 year ago, Nader made it clear- "support Kucinich and I won't interfere because you will finally have a progressive, a populist who cares about the people". About 6 months ago, he compromised even more letting it be understood that, out of respect for a populist movement, he would sit things out if the nominee were "allowed" to be Dean. The DNC & DLC establishment went out of their way to marginalize and/or crucify those two men and Nader has made good on his word. I frankly can't understand the establishment's "surprised, righteous" frenzy.

If the chance of Kerry beating Bush is so slim, it's because the difference between Kerry & Bush is not clearly different enough for the average voter to grasp.

Kucinich vs Bush? Not even a moran can miss single-payer universal health-care, 15% off the Pentagon's budget, healthy non-GMO food, no NAFTA exporting jobs and privatizing utilities, no children dying in Gaza-like occupations around the world, free education.

With differences like that Bush is beaten to a pulp. And as long as the DNC & DLC are not interested in beating Bush to a pulp, they don't represent me and I have more respect for Nader who says "this rotten duocracy must be destroyed & rebuilt".

[Raya]

20. I support DK as well. And he should continue in every debate. But we still

live in America. Kerry is now the most progressive guy who
can beat Bush. After the primary we have to unite and save some
lives and livelihoods here.

[Tinoire]

26. I used to believe that too. He was my number 2 after DK until recently

I found out how Scott Ritter had personally sent him all the information about Iraq not having WMDs before the IWR vote and Kerry still went ahead. Then it all started to make sense to me because of all my research on Clark (who I will add in all fairness was really no worse than any other DLC candidate). Everything I crucified Clark for carrying out/participating in, Kerry had voted for.

Kerry's not progressive, he's just domestically liberal. All of the blood-shed he enabled in the Middle-East, Far-East, Middle/Latin America is not progressive. He just occasionally throws a few crumbs to keep us distracted. The man can't even be bothered to show up for Senate votes most of the time. What kind of representation is that?

Sorry to sound so bitter. It hasn't made me happy to go from supporting Kerry to actively trying to prevent his nomination now.

[The Magistrate]

55. That Is Not True, Ma'am

The enemy is already attacking Sen. Kerry as "too liberal for America", and you know that will be a prominent attack line from the Republicans in the fall. It is quite likely a great proportion of the people will agree with that line, and that another large proportion will agree he is indeed liberal, but vote for him either because of or despite that.

In fact, my friend, the only people declaring Sen. Kerry is not a liberal are his opponents on the left, who employ a standard that could not be met by any but a handful of office-holders in present political circumstances, and even dubiously by that handful. They are free to do this, because they do not really have any interest in electoral success, but are instead enchanted by the idea of "making statements", as if acts of theatre meant a damned thing compared to the serious business of determining law and dividing the swag and employing armed force. There is a fdundamental frivolousness to this line, which really ought to be recognized, and lead to its being discarded into the nearest bin.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[dawn]

58. It's nice to know you have the luxury of being "pure"

Honestly, this place is becoming a joke. I really don't know what world so many of you are living in.

We HAVE to get Bush out of office, and a third-party or radical left Democrat will NOT do the job this time. Sorry. If Kerry and Edwards are seen as too far to the left by many in this country, where does that leave Nader (and even Kucinich, who I admire greatly)?

I guess you aren't affected by the radical policies of the Bush administration? Well I am, and so are so many people I know.

My husband's IT job may be outsourced to India in the next year, I lost my IT job and am having a heck of a time finding a secure, non-temp job that pays the bills, I worry about my rights as a woman, and I have no health insurance as I can't afford it. Sorry, I don't have the luxury of being "pure"!!!

I disagreed with my candidates IWR vote. But I know neither he nor Kerry are imperialists like Bush*. I don't worry that they will invade Syria, Iran, and so on. I don't worry that they will take away my right to choose.

[edzontar]

13. I agree with everyhting you sais except the word "moderate"

If these people are "moderate" Dems--calling for exile, purges, pissing on graves, etc., then the word needs to be redifined.

Hysterial, borderline psychotic would be a better characterization of some of these posts.

[Tinoire]

18. I was being polite. As Wonk so cleverly put it

Wonk (1000+ posts) Thu Feb-19-04 08:06 PM

3. "No, really, I'm a moderate Dem who supports the PATRIOT ACT, the IWR, Bush's tax cuts for the rich, faith based public education and social welfare policies, and I want to deny a woman's right to choose. But I'm a moderate Dem, really, so don't you dare imply I'm a freeper disruptor or YOU'LL be the one who gets a formal warning! BWAHAAHAAHAAAHAAAA!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=13627


Change "Freeper disruptor" to "Republican merely having a personality difference with Bush" and you have my statement. We're on the same sheet of music.

[edzontar]

33. They certainly TALK like freepers---threaening, calling for

Purges, pssing on graves, etc.

I wonder what the folks at the Kerry site would think of these "Arguments" being made in their name?

[The Magistrate]

61. Mr. Wonk, Ma'am

Was refering to deliberate infiltrators. You know perfectly well the supporters of Sen. Kerry, and of other candidates such as Sen. Edwards and Gen. Clark, are not such, but are in the main old and well-known members of this forum.

The caterwauling that people are being mean to Wrecker Nader is risible; it is not possible to express sufficient abhorence for his back-stabbing treachery, or to state too clearly that those who support him are in fact tools of the worst elements of reaction in our polity, calling for a course that can do nothing but benefit the worst elements of reaction in our polity. It makes not one whit of difference that they claim to be doing so as an expression of left zeal: they are in fact tools of reaction, weapons in the hand of the enemy, and they had better get used to plain speaking. If they do not like the name of the deed, they ought not do the deed, but the deed, Ma'am, will and must be named for what it is.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[muchacho]

64. true patriot

>>The caterwauling that people are being mean to Wrecker Nader is risible; it is not possible to express sufficient abhorence for his back-stabbing treachery, or to state too clearly that those who support him are in fact tools of the worst elements of reaction in our polity, calling for a course that can do nothing but benefit the worst elements of reaction in our polity.

Flowery dribble with a Liberal reactionary taint.

Are your feeling so exposed as to be offended by Nader or any progressive willing to remind you that the Dems are a lot of poseurs and hypocrites and that if they no longer for speak for progressive ideals we'll damn sure find someone who will.

You follow the Dems to their blind allegiance to the corporate oligarchy, though I don't think 2994 is the time for Nader to run I certainly consider him a true patriot and hardly a traitor.

[The Magistrate]

87. Wrecker Nader, Fellow

Is a knowing tool of the worst elements of reaction in our polity, to whom he has already once given decisive assistance. He is a traitor the left, the people, and the country, and those who would defend him and sustain him in any way partake of his crime. It does not matter if they do so in the desire to pose as exemplars of left zeal, for it is the fruit of the action that matters, and a course that will give material assistance to the worst elements of reaction is the work of a tool of reaction. If you do not like being a tool of reaction, dear, than eschew Wrecker Nader and the siren song of splinter-factionalism, but you cannot endorse the deed and escape the name.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[muchacho]

98. yes....yes.........

Nader the antichrist and bringer of all things unholy...blah blah blah

[flpoljunkie]

15. The 97,488 votes Nader got in Florida had nothing to with it?? Get real!!

How convenient that you ignore the "elephant in the room", as it were.

[Iverson]

19. darn right!

Ignore all of the legitimate arguments against fraud. The real problem is that some voters exercised democratic choice.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Besides, it's too scary to take on the Constitutional criminals. Get the little guy for an easy win!

[The Magistrate]

63. Nonsense, Mr. Iverson

Without the Wrecker candidate in the field, the problem would not have arisen. You know that perfectly well. The reason people deny it is simply to avoid facing their own responsibility for the success of the criminals of the '00 Coup, who they abetted by succumbing to the siren-song of the Wrecker. They spend their time instead proclaiming this and that office-holder or official of the Democratic Party is responsible for what the criminals of the '00 Coup do with their success, as a species of squid's ink to obscure their own responsibility in the matter. That is contemptible dis-honesty and immaturity: grown-ups face what they have done squarely and accept responsibility and consequences for their actions. Politics is a field for grown-ups, Mr. Iverson, not for callow alibi merchants who can always find some excuse for the foolishness they indulge in that wil enable them to avoid learning from their mistakes, and allow them to repeat their misdeeds.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Iverson]

82. back atcha!

Your dubious, albeit flowery, insistence upon causality fails the test of logic.

In the face of evidence, you offer evasion in response. Rejoin with me when you can seriously - and directly - address the points that were actually raised, as opposed to the ones that you wish were raised.

[The Magistrate]

89. Again, Fellow, Merest Nonsense

That the supporters and apologists for Wrecker Nader will not acknowledge the responsibility he bears for the success of the '00 Coup is no surprise. Those who support and apologize for him are fundamentally irresposible people. They are used to operating on the fringe of political life, without any expectation of actually holding power and being charged with its responsibilities. They therefore hold themselves free to express themselves and to act without the slightest shadow of responsibility clouding their doings, and come to place a value on irresponsibility itself, as the test of sincerity and commitment. Anyone who pays heed to what the consequences of a sincere and commited action might be is clearly insincere and uncommitted, and no part of the charmed circle of true believers who know the Truth and will settle for nothing less. Anyone who shows signs of comprehending that compromise is a necessity without a clear majority of the people behind you, or a majority in the Legislature and command of the Executive, is clearly a sell-out who betrays the Truth held tight by the sincere and committed clique. In short, the approach of these people to politics is about that of indie music scene denizens towards club dates and record contracts. Outsider status is valued above all else, and the point of the actvity is to maintain a self-image as a bold rebel iconoclast: actual accomplishments, real influence, and benefit to the people and defeat of the enemy, play no part at all in such "political" activity. It is really just a life-style choice, like snowmobiling or bungee-jumping, or work as a bicycle messenger.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Iverson]

100. fundamental confusion

Sir, you seem to have confused ritualistic character assassination with relevant critique. Would that the same energy were devoted to opposing the electoral fraud that brought the aforementioned criminals to power.

Again, once you're willing to get serious, a rejoinder will be welcomed.

Attacking the motives of actual opponents of the fascist cabal does not count as serious.

Best of luck.

[The Magistrate]

107. Always Fun To Meet A Glutton For Punishment, Dear

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Tinoire]

22. Oh so in other words Gore was such a weak candidate that

he couldn't attract those voters so the man who did should be crucified?

Taxation without Representation all over again. Business as usual. 2 sanctioned parties both out to screw the little man and the voters should all just be 'reasonable' enough to keep choosing the lesser of 2 evils because their balls are being held in a corporate vise-grip.

The Supreme Court nullified ALL votes.

The Reagan Democrats who voted for Bush - how many votes? Crucify them for a change instead of yelling "Welcome home Reagan Democrats".

The conservative swing voters the Democrats are always chasing - gee, let's keep chasing them some more. After we make the party look enough like the Republican Party, maybe they'll be "confused" enough to vote Democrat.

The Arab Americans in Florida angry at certain of the Democratic Party's stands - let's pretend they had no real grievances over the Democratic party's unconditional support of everything a right-wing government in Israel has been doing against their brothers.

The Democrats who voted for Buchanan, sure, they can come home too. They were just senile. Maybe this time they'll be senile enough to vote for Kerry.

The over 16,000 votes Diebold disappeared in Florida 2000 - don't they add up too?

Telling Haitians & other immigrants that the election was on the 8th had nothing to do with giving Bush the presidency - how many votes were disappeared right there? Do you know how many Haitans and immigrants live in FL? Do you remember how many police road-blocks the ones who were determined enough to go vote on Oct 7 encountered?

Massive voter purges - how many were purged? How many innocent people who had never even gone through a stop light had their ability to vote removed?

Military ballots received after the deadline - thousands! No postmark or post-marked AFTER the 7th and people like Wes Clark demanding those votes be counted!

Hanging chads - how many thousands did you watch get tossed into the "bin".

People who couldn't even be bothered to vote - how many tens of thousands there? Tens of thousands who KNOW that this "New Dem" Democratic party is more interested in pandering to corporations than taking care of voters.

And maybe, just maybe all those god-damned "naive' people who voted for Bush and now want the Democratic party to cater to their selfish needs now would have made up that 97,488 votes on their own.

===

And yesterday Senator John Kerry's campaign delivered a not-so-subtle statement: "It is important that we remain united in November and rally behind the Democratic nominee, whoever that may be."

The Kerry campaign's appeal was just one in another frenzy of calls yesterday for Mr. Nader to sit this one out, prompted by the announcement by a Nader aide that he would reveal his intentions Sunday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/21/politics/campaign/21NADE.html?pagewanted=print&position=

[Raya]

23. The system has been rigged for a long time. Doesn't help to Stab Dems

in the back.

[Tinoire]

27. And when Dems are part of it? What then? Forgive them& the system? n/t

[WitchWay]

71. convenience?

It's convenient to dismiss Kerry's allegiances. It's corporate strings that make him dance.

Why is Kerry is in a secret society where he has allegiances to the Bushes and Cheneys and all they stand for? It's ironic that no one is looking inot this "elephant in the room", as it were.

I can't stress how troublesome it is to me that Kerry has CLOSE ties with the same people that everyone is trying so hard to "beat" in this election (Bushes, Cheneys, Corporate interests).

Skull and Bones is a powerful organization that is all about concentrating power and wealth into the hands of its members. Whatever rituals and crap they do, that's not the point. They use money and secrecy as weapons to make sure certain blueblood families maintain and concentrate power. Why did Kerry join Skull and Bones and what has he gotten from them?

[WiseMen]

111. What country do you think you are living in. At least Kerry knows that.

[Raya]

17. Very simple: Gore would have won FL & NH Overwhelmingly w/out Nader

If progressive had backed Gore strongly we could have had
a democratic landslide.

But Nooooooo.

[Sensitivity]

32. And there were 4 other states where the vote was very close.

[WiseMen]

34. Is this a version of the "He looks FRENCH" critique from Rove.

[ulysses]

36. yup.

As if they didn't know this was coming... You reap what you sow in life. To think, to just think that so many Progressive Dems went out of their way to support a fiscally conservative, moderate, pro-Israel, not really antiwar Democrat like Dean but that wasn't good enough for the status quo DLC crowd.

Well put.

[The Magistrate]

47. None Of The Things You Mention In No. 7 Above, Ma'am

Alter the fact that Wrecker Nader's run is what put the criminals of the '00 Coup in striking distance for success in their design. They are in the main mere details of how his treason to the left enabled them to succeed. Wrecker Nader received 40, 000 votes in Florida: that dwarfs most all the other factors you have cited, particularly in a race with a final official difference of about 500 votes. Without the votes cast for Wrecker Nader instead of for Vice-President Gore, none of the items you mention would have mattered in the slightest to the outcome.

This alibi-ing for Wrecker Nader needs to stop, and those who support the wretch in any endeavor, past or present, need to look honestly at the fact that they bear a heavy burden of responsibility for the success of the criminals of the '00 Coup. It is no accident, Ma'am, that those who express support for Wrecker Nader and claim he had nothing to do with the success of the criminals of the '00 Coup are the same persons who spend so much time proclaiming that various Democratic Party officeholders and Party officials are "enablers" of the criminals of the '00 Coup: this is nothing more than projection of their own guilt in the matter onto others, an attempt to spread the blame past themselves and so secure themselves against honest self-examination of their conduct, and preserve a self image of themselves as the exemplars of left zeal, which they could not do if they openly acknowledged that they had taken a course which had in fact had the practical effect of securing triumph for the worst elements of reaction in our polity.

"Kill one, warn one hundred."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[dawn]

56. What is wrong with being moderate?

I'm sorry, I just don't understand what you are getting at. It's OK to be radical, but being moderate is akin to licking Bush*'s boots?

[minkyboodle]

112. thanks tinoire

this forum is rapidily becoming unreadable. THanks for keeping it real.
Scott

[edzontar]

12. Intemperate, threatening language like this reflects more on the author

Than it does on Nader.

I am not a Nader supporter, but if threads like this are in any way reflective of the emerging mentality of the Democratic Party in the age of Kerry, I may well have to rethink my position.

[kalian]

30. Bingo....

the exact same behavior is observed in repuke circles as well.
Makes one think, no?

[Sensitivity]

31. Question: Do you support the "Gramscian" approach to change in America?

Do you have a philosphy of change or are you one of those who just
insults anyone who does not take your line. I think the post
is quite thoughtfull and does not deserve this type of snearing.

[nightperson]

14. 93%? 96%? Think this is the right audience for those numbers?

People here are more impressed by Dean's 100% from the NRA. :shrug: Thanks for trying to educate people, though. Crunch the numbers :headbang: !

[Cuban_Liberal]

35. If Al Gore hadn't run such a CRAPPY campaign, ...

....Nader would have been a statistical irrelevancy. He WILL BE a statistical irrelevancy this election, so I would suggest that all of the fury, heat and light being expended over him THIS year could be better spent supporting OUR candidates and making sure that they DON'T run an incompetent GE campaign.

[Raya]

37. We have a "Party" system. Can put blame on Al. But he got more votes

than any other Dem in history! He won the popular vote by 1/2 million. He lost because Nader caused the loss
of the electoral college. Simple at that.

[Cuban_Liberal]

39. I can and do blame Al Gore.

There is no proof whatsoever that those Nader voters would have voted Democratic in FL or NH, but for Nader. Al Gore ran one of the worst campaigns in modern Democratic Party history, and Donna Brazille should have been horsewhipped for her part in it.

Edit: typo

[Raya]

41. Yes there were exit polls that show that they would have voted Gore

[Cuban_Liberal]

42. Show them to me.

I can say that there are exit polls showing that they would not have done so. Additionally, the presence of Nader in the race in no way explains the loss of Gore's home state of Tennessee, or Democratic-leaning states like WV.

That is the truth, and it's time to face it, and quit making this ridiculous 'the dog ate my homework' assertion about Nader costing Gore the election of 2000. GORE BLEW IT!

[ulysses]

38. KILL 'EM ALL!

snarl, growl, chomp, froth.

[Cuban_Liberal]

46. The floggings shall continue!

[corporatewhore]

43. Oh and kerry is not responsible for giving permission for bush to use

our troops how stupid/spineless can he be and kerry aint responsible for giving our jobs to child SLAVES via nafta/wto.. and all the death that occured via Plan Colombia :eyes:

[Raya]

48. And we are responsible for pretending that Gore=Bush. That was B.S.

And Tweedle dee Tweedle dum is also B.S. and we are screwing the
world with this irresponsible attitude.

If either Gore or Kerry were President we would not have killed
all those people.

But we knew better and had to sabotage Gore 2000.

[Cuban_Liberal]

49. Gore sabotaged Gore in 2000. n/t

[Raya]

52. Gore got more votes that Clinton in 96 and much more than 92. Diff=Nader!

[Cuban_Liberal]

54. We don't elect presidents on the basis of popular votes

That's a completely useless factoid.

[corporatewhore]

57. oh yeah if i vote dem texas just might not go tto bush and if we had kerry

how many would die from the affects of "free"trade and Plan Colombia and how many would be dead by arms supplied by the us it just goes on and on

[corporatewhore]

59. if if and ands where pots and pans the truth is kerry when the test came

was either too stupid or too spineless and gave permisssion for bush to use the troops

[buff2]

45. Nader

Sucks. He needs to just GO AWAY. The only thing he wants to do is make sure bu$h gets another 4 years. Then he can run his big mouth about how there is no difference between the democrats and republicans. That guy is a nut case. He makes me sick. :puke:

[Walt Starr]

50. Ya know, I expect to be approached to sign a Nader petition in Illinois

After reading this, I'll be sure to sign it. Let the Democratic candidate win against ALL candidates or lose. democracy in action.

[bluedog]

51. remember 2000 GOP Ads $100,000

."


In the final lap of this election, Republicans are sensing victory and many have bent over backwards to lavish praise on Mr. Nader. GOP allies in fact have spent over $100,000 in the final week of the campaign to buy TV ads in Washington, Wisconsin and Oregon, which feature a portion of a Nader speech attacking Gore's environmental record. Their ad of course, leaves out a section of that same speech which assails George Bush "as a big corporation running for president, disguised as a person."

While some Green Party activists are defiant, stressing that a Gore defeat would provide a shock to the system that some feel is necessary to start the process of cleaning up the corruption of corporate dominated politics, other Nader supporters are advocating strategic voting -- casting a vote for the Greens only in the 40 states where the contest is already over.

Once ignored by the corporate media and the major parties, Ralph Nader and his supporters may now be pivotal in deciding who will win or lose the White House Nov. 7.

[Raya]

66. The Best Amunition of Repubs is Dem-on-Dem Attacks

[Cuban_Liberal]

80. That a fallacy, IMO.

Frankly, it's usually nothing more than the argument put forth by supporters of the front-runner in a lmae to attempt to silence the supporters of other candidates.

[dawn]

53. Nader is a has-been and a fraud.

I'm not going to say he should be run out of this country, but the guy is out of his mind. Obviously, he is among the wealthy elite that benefits from Bush*'s policies. Why else would he run? It seems like a game to him.

[Sensitivity]

114. Why do his supporter put up with this craziness?

[Blue_Chill]

60. If you support Nader and what he's doing

You aren't a democrat, you should know that because later you will be whining when dems attack you like we do the RW on these forums and every area where democrats gather. You are no better then the right wingers and I respect you far less then I do them.

At least I know that my opposition is fighting for what their twisted minds think is right or for greed. Nader supporters want nothing more then to screw over the democrats and use Bush's victory to steal even more democratic votes. Backstabbing undercutters and nothing more. Running not to win but to get attention.

[Walt Starr]

62. I'm voting for The Ham Sandwich (D)

Right now, I'm a Democrat, but come November 2nd, I guarantee you, I won't be a Democrat any longer.

On March 17th, I'm re-registering as an Independent.

[dawn]

65. Yawn.

We know.

Sorry that the party has betrayed you. I'm proud to be a Democrat.

[Walt Starr]

75. Just pointing out, these forums are not for Democrats only

as clearly stated in the rules.

[Blue_Chill]

95. no one claimed they were

But I'm just getting ahead of the "whaa whaa why are you mean to us be mean to the RW!"

Nader supporters are lower on the scale then RWers.

[buff2]

110. Then why is it called

The Democratic Underground? :wtf:

[CityDem]

68. Preserve our rights

Nader has a "right" to run if he chooses. If we are so quick to dismiss this right, how easy will it be for the right wingers to take away our right to choice, freedom of speech, etc. If Kerry or Edwards are right on the issues, Nader should not be a factor.

[Cuban_Liberal]

70. Exactly!

I'm tired of all this energy being focused on Nader. We need to focus that energy on GOTV efforts and running a successful campign in the GE.

[WiseMen]

72. Well intentioned but nasty criticism among Dems is most deadly GE poison

[Cuban_Liberal]

73. Baloney!

A strong candidate will shake all of that off. It is a HUGELY exaggerated problem, IMO, one voiced mostly by supporters of whichever candidate happens to be the front runner at the moment in some half-assed attempt to silence the supporters of other candidates.

[Raya]

76. And you got your knowledge where? All history show that indi runs are

the most dangerous of factors whether on the right or the left.
This does not only apply in the U.S.

Anyone who denies that in just ignoring history.

[Cuban_Liberal]

77. The previous thread did not mention 'indi' runs.

Did it? :eyes:

[Raya]

78. Sorry. I thought the topic of thread was Nader 04

[Cuban_Liberal]

79. Maybe it's the thread topic.

it's not, however, what my post was in response to, which happened to be WiseMen's post.

[Raya]

81. sorry

[fleetus]

74. I agree.

I'm no Nader hater. He's got a right to run, and people have a right to vote for him.

I don't see him having much of an impact in the upcoming election because I think Democrats will be voting in incredible force, Republicans will have a weak turnout (I haven't talked to many Republicans really fired up about Bush), and Greens will be out in about the same numbers as last year.

I think the main reason Nader had a strong showing last year is that people thought he had a chance of getting his 5% (or whatever it was) of the vote. And democrats simply weren't energized to turn out and vote for Al Gore. This year, he wouldn't have a chance in hell considering what is sure to be a phenomenal Democrat turnout.

[Raya]

84. Just Heard Different. Nader gets 4% against Kerry and Bush

Even more than against Gore.

[moondust]

85. Purge the Scourge!!

Nader has easily done more harm than good in his time on the planet.

[Forkboy]

92. Oh yippeee,another Nader Hater wankfest

:eyes:

[Raya]

93. Sorry. Nader was a great reformer. But he ego has now taken over his mind

He is not thinking about the good of the movement anymore.

[Blue_Chill]

96. So WTF do you want?

Us to embrace this son of a bitch all and watch him steal votes from the democratic baby. Yipee watch Bush win Yipee let's all celebrate because we wouldn't want to be called a Nader Hater.

[Forkboy]

97. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[Blue_Chill]

99. That's what you will be saying

when christianity is forced on you. You can thank Nader.

[Forkboy]

101. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah again

[Blue_Chill]

104. So smart guy would do you think should be done?

Nader like or not did play a role in 2000, especially in Florida. So what should be done?

maybe you could add something (wishful thinking I know)

[Forkboy]

106. I've seen enough of your PM's to know

discussion would be futile.

[WiseMen]

94. I am Reminded of Al's "I hope he knows that he is lying!"

[Padraig18]

105. You should try talking to ulysses or Iverson some day.

I learned a great deal from a couple of threads they each took part in about Greens v. Dems, and while I still don't agree with them 100%, I did at least learn to see that there were MANY reasons for Gore losing in 2000, and Ralph Nader was just one of the many.

[WiseMen]

113. Anyone Thinks Naders Reasons for running is worth the risk?